JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on August 20, 2012, 08:31:16 PM
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Israel Continues Its Witchhunt Of Jewish Kids For Alleged Attack On Arabs
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-arrests-teen-girls-over-hate-attack-palestinians-184039111.html
May every brainwashed Israeli sheep that supports this vicious backstab die of cancer or may a Qassam fly up their tuchis.
Brennanfan
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This are very sad news. Imo they should get a medal for giving the quranimals something on their behind. And I believe that the Muslims have attacked the girl before, because they are animals and hate specially Jews. So sad. :'(
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From what I heard the Arabs attacked first and then they were defeated and now they cry about it. And moreover they have no reason to be in a place crowded with Jewish youth in the first place, unless they came to harass Jewish girls like they are known to do. I wonder what would happen to Jewish guys who enter a Qasbah of an arab town, oh wait, we have seen this already.
@ Brennanfan: you are desecrating the name of Israel . I think it is very inappropriate.
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Too much sympathy towards muslamics even on ramgyjdan is a dangerous thing.
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I almost thought this was a troll post.
anyway, very sad news.
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@ Brennanfan: you are desecrating the name of Israel . I think it is very inappropriate.
He's basically changing G-d (E-l) into hell, CV"S, which is a literally a Chillul Hashem.
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Uh Brennanfan, you can hate the current Israeli government all you like (along with individual leftist Israelis. But the title of your post is very inappropriate, since you are cursing the land itself. Remember, there's a difference between the current Erev Rav regime and the actual land, which we all support. Therefore I'm changing your title.
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Uh Brennanfan, you can hate the current Israeli government all you like (along with individual leftist Israelis. But the title of your post is very inappropriate, since you are cursing the land itself. Remember, there's a difference between the current Erev Rav regime and the actual land, which we all support. Therefore I'm changing your title.
good call
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Isn't criticizing the Israeli government considered a crime even if you don't live in Israel?
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Isn't criticizing the Israeli government considered a crime even if you don't live in Israel?
It's not a crime anywhere inside or outside Israel.
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It's not a crime anywhere inside or outside Israel.
I thought it was.
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I thought it was.
It's not a criminal offense, though it is a sin... According to some interpretations of the Torah...
But to say that the current leaders of Israeli government are ill-suited to lead the Jewish people is to state a fact...
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http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter79.html
It is forbidden to curse any Israelite, and there are special prohibitions against cursing a judge or the king, as it says "You shall not curse a deaf person",23 and it says "You shall not curse judges and a prince of your nation you shall not curse".24,h
23. Lev. 19:14
24. Ex. 22:27
But the judges which the Torah admonishes us against cursing are all Torah Scholars:
It is forbidden to appoint judges who are not experts in the Torah, as it says "You shall not show preference in judgment",2 and it says "And they shall stand there with you"3 -- they must be like you (i.e., like Moses). A judge must be wise, humble, G-d-fearing, a despiser of wealth, a lover of truth, loved by the people, and of good repute, as it says "Men who are wise and understanding and known to your tribes",4 and it says "Men of valor, G-d-fearing, men of truth, haters of profit".5 For all cases except purely monetary matters not involving fines at least one of the judges must be ordained.b
2. Deut. 1:17
3. Num. 11:16
4. Deut. 1:13
5. Ex. 18:21
Again this is a timely question because this Shabbat we are reading Parasha Shoftim {Judges}...
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Ron ben Michael used to call Israel the most anti-Semitic country on earth and he lives there. Maybe it was an exaggeration or hyperbole on his part meant to make a point about the Israeli government's ill treatment of some of its citizens and coddling of it's internal enemies. Nobody really jumped on him for this assessment though.
However I don't think what Dr. Brennan Fan did was all that different. I can understand why some people might not like the title though.
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I don't think he had any ill intentions with the title! I'm guessing he was not thinking about it!
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It still doesn't look right.
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I definitely see what he meant by it though. It's the lives I worry about, not the land. It just so happens that the lives I care about LIVE in the land. If the same people lived in Antarctica and Israel had not even one Jew or one righteous Gentile, I could care less about it at this point in time (until Moshiach comes and we are all returned there). Israel is a puppet of the U.S., defies most Torah values, and evicts Jews.
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Ron ben Michael used to call Israel the most anti-Semitic country on earth and he lives there. Maybe it was an exaggeration or hyperbole on his part meant to make a point about the Israeli government's ill treatment of some of its citizens and coddling of it's internal enemies. Nobody really jumped on him for this assessment though.
However I don't think what Dr. Brennan Fan did was all that different. I can understand why some people might not like the title though.
Rubystars, I completely agree with the content of Brennanfan's post. I just had a problem with the title.
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Uh Brennanfan, you can hate the current Israeli government all you like (along with individual leftist Israelis. But the title of your post is very inappropriate, since you are cursing the land itself. Remember, there's a difference between the current Erev Rav regime and the actual land, which we all support. Therefore I'm changing your title.
I don't fault you but the majority of Israelis support this treason. Shouldn't they be cursed?
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I thought it was.
In Soviet union it was a crime to criticize the soviet govt, but they always allowed criticism of zionists and the Israeli regime.
It's not illegal anywhere to my knowledge to criticize the israeli govt.
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Ron ben Michael used to call Israel the most anti-Semitic country on earth and he lives there. Maybe it was an exaggeration or hyperbole on his part meant to make a point about the Israeli government's ill treatment of some of its citizens and coddling of it's internal enemies. Nobody really jumped on him for this assessment though.
However I don't think what Dr. Brennan Fan did was all that different. I can understand why some people might not like the title though.
True. It's tip-toeing a very fine line. But brennan's criticism (like Ron's) is valid, even if stated in uncomfortable terms. I agree however with the title change because we don't want people to get the wrong impression if they are a newbie or if someone just sees the thread and doesn't read it inside, so they don't get what point he's actually making.
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I definitely see what he meant by it though. It's the lives I worry about, not the land. It just so happens that the lives I care about LIVE in the land. If the same people lived in Antarctica and Israel had not even one Jew or one righteous Gentile, I could care less about it at this point in time (until Moshiach comes and we are all returned there). Israel is a puppet of the U.S., defies most Torah values, and evicts Jews.
Israel is not a puppet of the US. That is a calumny spread by Arabs who are sour about losing over and over again in wars to Israel.
Israel defeated the Arabs while the US put an arms embargo on the middle east.
Israel defeated the Arabs while the US begged them not to go to war and threatened Israel repeatedly (67). That's not how a puppet behaves.
What you said makes very little sense because G-d promised us the land of Israel and this promise to abraham isaac and Jacob to give this goodly land to their descendants comes up in parsha after parsha in the Torah. Do you just ignore them? He did not promise antartica. If there was only one single righteous gentile in eretz Yisrael (or none) and not even one Jew living there, that land still has significance that antarctica or any other place does not have even if 10 million Jews are there.
You make the mistake of conflating the Israeli regime or government with the Land of Israel - Two different things and different concepts. Also beware not to conflate the CONCEPT OF JEWISH STATEHOOD with the current Israeli regime or current Israeli state in its current makeup. The concept of Jewish statehood is not limited by what is currently formulated - so don't fall into a false dichotomy where you reject Jewish statehood on invalid grounds.
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I don't fault you but the majority of Israelis support this treason. Shouldn't they be cursed?
But that's your opinion. Many of us think the majority of Israelis do NOT support it. Chaim included. He disagrees with your assertion that majority of Israelis support things like this, as he has stated to you many times. So your choosing to curse majority of Israelis (is that really what you did here originally?!) is a very serious and risky endeavor. And wrong.
It is tiny minority groups like peace now and the Israeli elites and media machine which try to convince people like you that the majority agree to their way of thinking. But that is not so.
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Israel is not a puppet of the US. That is a calumny spread by Arabs who are sour about losing over and over again in wars to Israel.
Israel defeated the Arabs while the US put an arms embargo on the middle east.
Israel defeated the Arabs while the US begged them not to go to war and threatened Israel repeatedly (67). That's not how a puppet behaves.
What you said makes very little sense because G-d promised us the land of Israel and this promise to abraham isaac and Jacob to give this goodly land to their descendants comes up in parsha after parsha in the Torah. Do you just ignore them? He did not promise antartica. If there was only one single righteous gentile in eretz Yisrael (or none) and not even one Jew living there, that land still has significance that antarctica or any other place does not have even if 10 million Jews are there.
You make the mistake of conflating the Israeli regime or government with the Land of Israel - Two different things and different concepts. Also beware not to conflate the CONCEPT OF JEWISH STATEHOOD with the current Israeli regime or current Israeli state in its current makeup. The concept of Jewish statehood is not limited by what is currently formulated - so don't fall into a false dichotomy where you reject Jewish statehood on invalid grounds.
Israel IS a puppet of the U.S. Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous. You think Israel can just defy the U.S. whenever it wants? Also, the modern-day land of Israel is only a tiny piece of what was given to the Jews. If Israel were in control of the world, it would never have given away so much land. Hell, if the U.S. told Israel, at any point in time, that they would help preserve all of the land, do you think any of the Arabs would have had a chance against Israel? Suppose the U.S. helped Israel destroy all of its enemies, do you really think Israel would have as little land as it does now? According to your argument we should respect the entire land regardless of the people in it. I got some news for you. Some of the Jews who live in Israel are worse than some of the Gentiles in the surrounding Arab countries. Does that mean I should consider those lands holy? The current regime controls the people. The land is holy, of course, because Hashem said so, but the Jewish lives everywhere are just as precious.
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Israel IS a puppet of the U.S. Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous.
Do you ever watch a single video Chaim makes?
The amount US gives to Israel is actually pretty small. Not ridiculous. Check out how much they give to arab states. Do those states behave as puppets? Not a chance.
You think Israel can just defy the U.S. whenever it wants?
It can defy but chooses not to. The current leadership is too afraid and too weak to do it.
But let's look at history. Israel HAS defied the US in the past and they are still around today. The world didn't end.
They defied them before the current "relationship" existed, and they have defied them during the current "relationship."
The US reacts with indignation and condemnation, then it blows over. Israel is a sovereign state, there is only so much the US can force it to behave along US interests. Same is true of all other non-US countries the US tries to influence.
So what do you have to say about this history?
Also, the modern-day land of Israel is only a tiny piece of what was given to the Jews.
What exactly is a "modern-day land of Israel?" There is only one Land of Israel, that is Biblical. You are again conflating the modern-day JEWISH STATE (in its current formulation) with the Land of Israel - two different things and different concepts. The land of Israel is the piece of land G-d promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob, no matter if there are 10 Jews there, a million Jews and a Jewish country, or just space aliens and an alien state. It's still the same land, it still has the same significance you cannot ignore or deny. The Torah speaks of it constantly!
If Israel were in control of the world, it would never have given away so much land.
Why would Israel be "in control of the world" and what bearing does that have on anything I said? They obviously do not "control the world." So what?
Hell, if the U.S. told Israel, at any point in time, that they would help preserve all of the land, do you think any of the Arabs would have had a chance against Israel? Suppose the U.S. helped Israel destroy all of its enemies, do you really think Israel would have as little land as it does now?
So if the US doesn't help Israel fight its own wars, that means Israel is a puppet of the US? Not much logic in that claim. There are many wars throughout the world that the US does not intervene in or does not pick sides and then fight to the extermination of the other side.
According to your argument we should respect the entire land regardless of the people in it.
I got some news for you. Some of the Jews who live in Israel are worse than some of the Gentiles in the surrounding Arab countries. Does that mean I should consider those lands holy?
You do realize that land is something that you walk on, right? It's on the ground made up of earth, dirt, mountains, valleys, trees, etc. So of what relevance are the people treading on it? It's still the land G-d promised to us as an inheritance.
Are you aware that when the Jews were about to enter the land, there were other peoples there? And these other peoples weren't such savory characters? And part of the reason G-d was removing them was because of their idol worship? And this didn't make the land less special because unsavory characters were roaming around on it.
So by all means, consider the lands holy. But the people on them, if they are doing evil deeds, may not be so holy. Still doesn't change that the land (I'm talking about earth, stuff you walk on and live in, NOT PEOPLE) is special and given to us. This is precisely your mistake. You are negating the holiness of the land of Israel and the special significance of this place on the globe due to your distaste for the behaviors of people living there. That is a variation on the theme of the sin of the spies who negated the land due to the fear of the giants roaming there.
The current regime controls the people. The land is holy, of course, because Hashem said so, but the Jewish lives everywhere are just as precious.
Your point? Life is precious, but Jewish existence in antartica (or mexico, or the US) is irrelevant by a thousand-fold compared to Jewish existence in our ancient homeland. And if Jews are behaving badly in Israel, that's all the more dangerous because of how central and important eretz Yisrael is to the future of the Jewish people. Much more relevant and important than the discussion about the brooklyn eruv.
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It makes me cry thinking that some discussions here on JTF might be appropriate on Nueta Karta websites. We should not hate the state of Israel. Indeed all is not ideal, all is quite upset, and it is looking kinda creepy. But it is the land of Israel, the Eretz Yisrael. While it is heart-wrenching to watch this sick drama going on in our lifetime we also should feel a bit privileged to be witnessing this.
It is our responsibility to do something to make sure that righteous Jews succeed in Israel. We all are quite shocked at how strong the evil side has grown, the erev rav who sit in the knesset plotting and planning the eviction of Jewish families from our G-d given heritage. Could any human being write a movie plot so convoluted and completely repulsive? This is the divine plan we are witnessing, awesomely heavy on our hearts and minds.
Don't we all awake in the morning and first thing, check the news in Israel, read the pro-Israel blogs and check our Email for relevant information regarding the Jewish peoples experience in today's world? I do this and as you would expect it causes me great stress and makes it hard to serve G-d with the joy I am expected to serve with. It is a double edged sword which is laying against our throats. But I always remember that a Jew should never despair, even when the sword is on our throat.
Hate is an emotion which only has good application in a few situations. In general, according to my understanding of Jewish thought, hate is a negative trait. It will lead a man to do things without much thought which he may have regrets for doing. As King Solomon says in Ecclesiastes there is a time for every thing under heaven. Thus we learn that there indeed must be a positive characteristic to the emotion of hatred.
Our hatred must make us stronger in our attempts to turn the situation around. Our hatred must make us look into ourselves, and evaluate ourselves, looking for ways to improve our ability to reach out and affect the people around us. Our hatred of our enemies must make us stronger in our desire to build up our defensive and offensive weaponry, in order to put down any attempt to kill the Jewish people in their land.
Israel appears quite messed up at this point. But let us not begin cursing Jews, even the marginally bad Jews, because we learn through the Talmud that every Jew, even the non-observant, has as many mitzvot {good deeds/commandments} as a pomegranate has seeds {which tradition says has 613 seeds approx}.
I feel very bad about this situation. I feel many of our members frustration at being unable to do much more than be internet warriors. But some of us do actually put our money where our heart and mind is. As Chaim has said during his AskJTF shows, this organization could use some more contributions. I admit that I have not given as much as I would like to have... And I will make a pledge that I will be giving to JTF soon... I suggest everyone who reads this who can sacrifice a few Dollars to do so as a Charitable Act which would qualify as a Mitzvah of Tzedakah for the upcoming Rosh Hashana holiday...
May our prayers be heard during this upcoming month of Elul...
May our members be strengthened in all their good middot, and against their evil inclination...
May we all be blessed with health, and long life...
Amen....
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KWR, I think you are misunderstanding Mo. Mo agrees with everything Chaim says. All he was arguing is what we all agree on--that Israel is far too slavishly tied to the United States and refuses to look out for its own interests. How would Chaim disagree with that?
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But that's your opinion. Many of us think the majority of Israelis do NOT support it. Chaim included. He disagrees with your assertion that majority of Israelis support things like this, as he has stated to you many times. So your choosing to curse majority of Israelis (is that really what you did here originally?!) is a very serious and risky endeavor. And wrong.
It is tiny minority groups like peace now and the Israeli elites and media machine which try to convince people like you that the majority agree to their way of thinking. But that is not so.
I haven't seen polls yet on this case (will look them up), but something like 61% of Israelis are supposedly opposing a strike on Iran. We already know where most Israelis stand on each and every surrender/ethnic cleansing.
If that's not self-hatred, what is?
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Chaim, and Rabbi Kahane both have stated that Israel should not accept more aide from America as it does make the Israeli leaders weaker, and they become puppets of the American administration.
It is a tough call though because that aide is used for some military hardware.
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So Brennanfan...
What is your point? Do you give up on Israel? Why the defeatist attitude?
If it is so bad why are we even trying?
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It makes me cry thinking that some discussions here on JTF might be appropriate on Nueta Karta websites. We should not hate the state of Israel. Indeed all is not ideal, all is quite upset, and it is looking kinda creepy. But it is the land of Israel, the Eretz Yisrael. While it is heart-wrenching to watch this sick drama going on in our lifetime we also should feel a bit privileged to be witnessing this.
It is our responsibility to do something to make sure that righteous Jews succeed in Israel. We all are quite shocked at how strong the evil side has grown, the erev rav who sit in the knesset plotting and planning the eviction of Jewish families from our G-d given heritage. Could any human being write a movie plot so convoluted and completely repulsive? This is the divine plan we are witnessing, awesomely heavy on our hearts and minds.
Don't we all awake in the morning and first thing, check the news in Israel, read the pro-Israel blogs and check our Email for relevant information regarding the Jewish peoples experience in today's world? I do this and as you would expect it causes me great stress and makes it hard to serve G-d with the joy I am expected to serve with. It is a double edged sword which is laying against our throats. But I always remember that a Jew should never despair, even when the sword is on our throat.
Hate is an emotion which only has good application in a few situations. In general, according to my understanding of Jewish thought, hate is a negative trait. It will lead a man to do things without much thought which he may have regrets for doing. As King Solomon says in Ecclesiastes there is a time for every thing under heaven. Thus we learn that there indeed must be a positive characteristic to the emotion of hatred.
Our hatred must make us stronger in our attempts to turn the situation around. Our hatred must make us look into ourselves, and evaluate ourselves, looking for ways to improve our ability to reach out and affect the people around us. Our hatred of our enemies must make us stronger in our desire to build up our defensive and offensive weaponry, in order to put down any attempt to kill the Jewish people in their land.
Israel appears quite messed up at this point. But let us not begin cursing Jews, even the marginally bad Jews, because we learn through the Talmud that every Jew, even the non-observant, has as many mitzvot {good deeds/commandments} as a pomegranate has seeds {which tradition says has 613 seeds approx}.
I feel very bad about this situation. I feel many of our members frustration at being unable to do much more than be internet warriors. But some of us do actually put our money where our heart and mind is. As Chaim has said during his AskJTF shows, this organization could use some more contributions. I admit that I have not given as much as I would like to have... And I will make a pledge that I will be giving to JTF soon... I suggest everyone who reads this who can sacrifice a few Dollars to do so as a Charitable Act which would qualify as a Mitzvah of Tzedakah for the upcoming Rosh Hashana holiday...
May our prayers be heard during this upcoming month of Elul...
May our members be strengthened in all their good middot, and against their evil inclination...
May we all be blessed with health, and long life...
Amen....
Muman, of course I don't want to sound like an NK member and I apologize if I did. But believe me, I am not just picking on marginally self-hating Jews. Lisa can tell you that I frequently curse evil Christians (i.e. "yimach shemo to the Copts") and others. I have a low tolerance for people who hate and oppress and murder good, honest, religious, Bible-believers period.
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Brennanfan,
I fully understand why you are frustrated with the circumstances. It seems hopeless at times... So many Jews acting against their best interests. For what? So that the world will like them? It seems foolish, so foolish...
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So Brennanfan...
What is your point? Do you give up on Israel? Why the defeatist attitude?
If it is so bad why are we even trying?
I am not giving up on people who are genuinely torn and confused. But a lot of them are actually kapos, to one degree or another. To answer your other post, Israel would be able to produce all of her own heavy hardware. The Merkava tank is one of the best in the world, and do you remember the Lavi fighter plane that was killed right before it was about to go into production in 1986 on orders from the Reagan Administration?
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I haven't seen polls yet on this case (will look them up), but something like 61% of Israelis are supposedly opposing a strike on Iran. We already know where most Israelis stand on each and every surrender/ethnic cleansing.
If that's not self-hatred, what is?
I'm not a psychiatrist, but if 61% of Israeli's oppose a strike on Iran, then that, ipso facto, makes them self-hating Jews? If you're right, that's a lot of self-hating Jews. It couldn't be something else? Like maybe they're not understanding the seriousness of that Iranian Hitler? Like maybe the are self-loving Jews who simply are refusing to face the facts? To be fair to these 61%, I'm just not seeing a definite connection between opposing a strike on Iran and self-hatred. I have a feeling that you feel they must be self-haters because they want to be killed by Iran's nukes, and why would they want to be killed if they didn't hate themselves? If I'm correct about your reasoning, then I propose that you look at it from a different angle and see other reasons than self-hatred. Quite frankly, I see it more as stupidity than self-hatred.
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Israel is: The collective name for the entire Jewish people. It is the name of their homeland. If you curse Israel you curse the entire Jewish people of all generations.
Of course the suffix el means G-d. It's not necessarily desecration of G-d's name to replace "el" with "hell"( remember "temple bet-hell" ?). But definitely not appropriate to curse like that the entire Jewish people of all generations.
Until Brennanfan, the only ones I saw who use the slander "Israhell" are muslims and nazis.
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I don't fault you but the majority of Israelis support this treason. Shouldn't they be cursed?
No. Gd will make the self correction. The gentiles that acts upon it or prays for it will be cursed. Bf, watch what you say. It almost sounds like you justify the Romans destruction of the Jews because they were bad. Nobody should want bad things to happen to our people. Rather we prefer that they use free will to change for the better.
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BF,
Once again, I'm not disagreeing with the content of your posts. If you want to curse individual Israelis who condemn what these girls did, then go ahead. But I think it's a stretch to call *all* Israeli Jews self hating. After all, I don't think you want our Israeli JTF'ers on the Hebrew forum to cursed.
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Yes, Brennanfan, I was referring to Chaim explaining that the U.S. gives too much aid to Israel which handcuffs them.
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KWR, I think you are misunderstanding Mo. Mo agrees with everything Chaim says. All he was arguing is what we all agree on--that Israel is far too slavishly tied to the United States and refuses to look out for its own interests. How would Chaim disagree with that?
spot on.
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KWR, I think you are misunderstanding Mo. Mo agrees with everything Chaim says.
Not true.
Mo is saying that Israel CANNOT disobey the US. Even if the leaders wanted to. That is definitely not what Chaim says.
Mo is saying that America gives a "ridiculous" amount of aid to Israel. The exact opposite of what Chaim says.
Read the quote again:
"Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous."
Mo's point is, Israel has no choice but to obey the US because without us foreign aid, (now I'm editorializing) all Israelis would starve and america would nuke Israel if they misbehaved, or something.
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Yes, Brennanfan, I was referring to Chaim explaining that the U.S. gives too much aid to Israel which handcuffs them.
Mo, you told me that Israel is dependent on the US. That's false.
You told me that Israel cannot disobey the US (for whatever reasons, but you highlighted the "ridiculous" amounts of foreign aid as the main reason). That's false. Israel has disobeyed in the past, and the world didn't end.
The words you used were "Israel is a puppet of the US."
I don't think you realize that you and Chaim do not see these issues the same way.
You are saying: Israel cannot disobey the US, even if a prime minister wanted to. He has no choice but to do what the US says because without the US we will not survive. We're a "puppet." And "You think Israel can just defy the U.S. whenever it wants? "
Chaim is saying: The current Israeli leaders are too afraid and too selfish to defy the US and do what is in the interest of the Jewish people because they don't have the proper Jewish values. But a prime minister with those proper values could very well turn around and say "No" to the US demands and the world would go on, and Israel would prosper. That is quite the opposite of what you are claiming. You seem to be saying that if a leader came about and did that, Israel would starve or get nuked by America (or whatever it is you think would happen).
Chaim's opinion as he always expressed it was that if an Israeli leader wanted to, they could defy the US demands. None of them want to. Or at least don't want to enough to actually try it. (it's possible bibi doesn't particularly like obama, but he still doesn't want to make waves)
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Not true.
Mo is saying that Israel CANNOT disobey the US. Even if the leaders wanted to. That is definitely not what Chaim says.
Mo is saying that America gives a "ridiculous" amount of aid to Israel. The exact opposite of what Chaim says.
Read the quote again:
"Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous."
Mo's point is, Israel has no choice but to obey the US because without us foreign aid, (now I'm editorializing) all Israelis would starve and america would nuke Israel if they misbehaved, or something.
I did NOT say that. I said that Israel has its hand tied mostly because of the foreign aid. I don't know where you got the other idea. It's not only that, but the entire world is always distorting Israel's actions. The media, for some reason, always portrays the Arabs as good guys and Israelis as bad guys. World opinion is a tremendous influence on Israel's actions.
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Mo, you told me that Israel is dependent on the US. That's false.
You told me that Israel cannot disobey the US (for whatever reasons, but you highlighted the "ridiculous" amounts of foreign aid as the main reason). That's false. Israel has disobeyed in the past, and the world didn't end.
The words you used were "Israel is a puppet of the US."
I don't think you realize that you and Chaim do not see these issues the same way.
You are saying: Israel cannot disobey the US, even if a prime minister wanted to. He has no choice but to do what the US says because without the US we will not survive. We're a "puppet." And "You think Israel can just defy the U.S. whenever it wants? "
Chaim is saying: The current Israeli leaders are too afraid and too selfish to defy the US and do what is in the interest of the Jewish people because they don't have the proper Jewish values. But a prime minister with those proper values could very well turn around and say "No" to the US demands and the world would go on, and Israel would prosper. That is quite the opposite of what you are claiming. You seem to be saying that if a leader came about and did that, Israel would starve or get nuked by America (or whatever it is you think would happen).
Chaim's opinion as he always expressed it was that if an Israeli leader wanted to, they could defy the US demands. None of them want to. Or at least don't want to enough to actually try it. (it's possible bibi doesn't particularly like obama, but he still doesn't want to make waves)
You put words into my mouth again.
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I did NOT say that. I said that Israel has its hand tied mostly because of the foreign aid. I don't know where you got the other idea. It's not only that, but the entire world is always distorting Israel's actions. The media, for some reason, always portrays the Arabs as good guys and Israelis as bad guys. World opinion is a tremendous influence on Israel's actions.
Do you believe:
1. Israel has to be a puppet, because America gives them 3 billion in aid. Israeli leaders have no choice but to obey whatever America says.
or
2. Israel does not have to be a puppet, and the 3 billion is not worth the trouble, nor does it matter that much, but its leadership chooses to embrace the role of puppet anyway because they are twisted and perturbed. But with better leaders this role could be rejected and a different one adopted.
Please choose 1 or 2.
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Do you believe:
1. Israel has to be a puppet, because America gives them 3 billion in aid. Israeli leaders have no choice but to obey whatever America says.
or
2. Israel does not have to be a puppet, and the 3 billion is not worth the trouble, nor does it matter that much, but its leadership chooses to embrace the role of puppet anyway because they are twisted and perturbed. But with better leaders this role could be rejected and a different one adopted.
Please choose 1 or 2.
Neither. You misinterpreted the word "puppet". The aid isn't that much of an issue, it's more about having to please the rest of the world and the repercussions on not doing so.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7LSDUdiu2A&feature=relmfu
Go to around 40 seconds to see where I'm coming from.
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Neither. You misinterpreted the word "puppet". The aid isn't that much of an issue, it's more about having to please the rest of the world and the repercussions on not doing so.
Like I said, you are saying that Israel HAS to behave this way. That it doesn't have a choice. Chaim has said over and over again, that Israel does have a choice and it could choose to behave in its own interests and defy the world. It chooses not to. But it could if it wanted to. (And a leader like Chaim would want to and would do it).
Fine, maybe you disagree with Chaim. But to say you and him are saying the same thing is just purely incorrect.
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And I did not put words in your mouth because you were the one who said Israel is just a puppet. You now explain that that means pleasing the world, and if they don't they will face consequences which are too daunting to face (and therefore we MUST obey the world because those consequences are too scary).
I believe that is a bunch of hogwash and there is really nothing much the world could do about it if a country (including the country known as israel) chooses to defy it or go in a different direction.
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I haven's said I agreed with him or disagreed with him. I've showed that it's not a choice Israel can make. It's like me choosing to shoot somebody. Of course I COULD shoot somebody, but doing that will lead to punishment. Similarly, Israel CAN do whatever it wants, but it will be punished. Whether or not the punishment is severe is up for discussion, but they don't want to deal with the universal backlash. Since when did I say anything about Chaim?
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Go to around 40 seconds to see where I'm coming from.
So in other words you buy into the facade that Big Bad America and Big Brother Obama will whip bibi with a stick and "do something" to Israel if bibi does something about the arabs. And that these consequences are so bad that we should never dare confront such a scenario.
I believe that's a crock and the ones who promote that lie the most are the Israeli govt so that they can excuse their own misdeeds and blame it on america.
If they would do what's right for the Jewish people instead, America will protest and shout, and then the anger will fade away. Just like
every time in history that Israel has defied America for Israel's own self-interest
It is the arabs who also promote this lie that Israel is a puppet because they are eternally shamed for being defeated by us in war and they cannot face this embarrassment, so they need to excuse it. It also plays into their narrative that Jews aren't indigenous to EY but are foreign implants. Regardless of that, the basic premise is simply untrue. Some of Israel's leaders behave as puppets due to their fear or selfish motives. But that doesn't mean Israel is or has to be a puppet state.
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KWRBT,
It seems that you introduced Chaims opinion into this discussion, not Mo.
Can you see what Mo is trying to say here? I can see... I don't agree that Israel can't disobey Americas wishes and I hope that someday soon we see Israel standing up for what is right. But it indeed is a problem which causes Israel a lot of headaches {accepting this aide money}.
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So in other words you buy into the facade that Big Bad America and Big Brother Obama will whip bibi with a stick and "do something" to Israel if bibi does something about the arabs. And that these consequences are so bad that we should never dare confront such a scenario.
I believe that's a crock and the ones who promote that lie the most are the Israeli govt so that they can excuse their own misdeeds and blame it on america.
If they would do what's right for the Jewish people instead, America will protest and shout, and then the anger will fade away. Just like
every time in history that Israel has defied America for Israel's own self-interest
It is the arabs who also promote this lie that Israel is a puppet because they are eternally shamed for being defeated by us in war and they cannot face this embarrassment, so they need to excuse it. It also plays into their narrative that Jews aren't indigenous to EY but are foreign implants. Regardless of that, the basic premise is simply untrue. Some of Israel's leaders behave as puppets due to their fear or selfish motives. But that doesn't mean Israel is or has to be a puppet state.
Who knows WHY Israeli leaders do what they do? It could be for many reasons. I believe that most of them do NOT want to endanger their own people as a first choice. There has to be some reason for them to do what they do (or don't do). I'd rather believe something more plausible (though kind of silly in of itself) i.e. world appeasement. I don't think the "why" matters as much. It's just the fact that they suck.
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I haven's said I agreed with him or disagreed with him. I've showed that it's not a choice Israel can make.
Ok, and I am asserting that by making that statement you are definitely contradicting what Chaim constantly preaches about what Israel should do and what it could do. That's fine too, you don't have to agree or think the same way as Chaim. But to me it is obvious that you are clearly wrong about this! Israel if it had any guts, could do all the things Chaim talks about and Rabbi Kahane talked about.
It's like me choosing to shoot somebody. Of course I COULD shoot somebody, but doing that will lead to punishment. Similarly, Israel CAN do whatever it wants, but it will be punished. Whether or not the punishment is severe is up for discussion, but they don't want to deal with the universal backlash. Since when did I say anything about Chaim?
There is backlash no matter what they do. No matter how politically correct they try to be. Haven't you learned that by now?
Some of us are sick and tired of these excuses and really do not care about backlash and do not care about what the world wants. Especially considering they send the backlash at us even when we do something completely parve, they manage to twist it and portray it negatively. Ok, so that's the best they got?
Some of us are ready to deal head on with backlash, come as it may, as long as we take care of the Arabs. What's more important here?
And some people, like me, are skeptical that there would really be such a backlash. I am skeptical that this is a manufactured premise designed to keep good Jews apathetic and shrug their shoulders and throw their hands up in the air and say "well, what can we do, we have no choice, what will america say." The oslo agenda gets carried out as long as there are enough Jews who are complacent like that and in utter dread and fear of this supposed "backlash" and the built-up persona given to the idea of Israel getting punished - a "conventional wisdom" built up by far leftists and media elites. One of those "conventional wisdoms" which in my mind is neither conventional nor wise.
There are many countries in the world, many of them behave according to their own interests, not what the UN wants or what the US wants or what one particular other country wants. They do not get beheaded or nuked. Most times they get cold relations at worst. Only very severe DIRECT AFFRONTS (ie an attack on america, or north korea saying it will nuke america) create actual military hostility. Most of the time, America will express how they don't like a policy and put pressure to try to get it according to their wishes. If that doesn't work, oh well. They are not going to send troops into Israel to make Israel treat Arabs gentler . It is not worth the time and effort of these other countries. LOL at the idea of them caring about Arabs. They certainly do not.
You didn't say something about Chaim, but when I contradicted some of your points, another poster here (brennan fan) defended you by saying that you said the same thing as Chaim, or that you are agreeing with Chaim on the points you made. So I simply tried to assert that is not true. Obviously, you don't have to agree with Chaim or with anyone. My main point is not that you differ from Chaim's views, but that your view is mistaken!
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KWRBT,
It seems that you introduced Chaims opinion into this discussion, not Mo.
Looks can be deceiving. If you read closely, you will find out that it was DR BRENNAN FAN who introduced Chaim to the thread.
I pointed out that Chaim's videos, tons of them, say the exact opposite of Mo, because that is true, on the specific point about foreign aid. Chaim is a knowledgable person, especially on these subjects, so I think he would know whether Israel is capable of defying America or not, and whether they are dependent on the foreign aid or not. He has said the aid is a tiny portion of Israel's GDP so it really doesn't matter as much as people make it out to. We have someone here making it to be a lot (mo is saying it's "ridiculous amounts"). So the reason I mentioned these videos is simply to allude to my own point. That small amount of aid doesn't REALLY handcuff Israel, and it doesn't really matter. They could cut it off tomorrow and Israel would be just fine. It is no excuse for committing national suicide. And no other country behaves this idiotic way.
And many countries receive aid.
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Who knows WHY Israeli leaders do what they do? It could be for many reasons. I believe that most of them do NOT want to endanger their own people as a first choice. There has to be some reason for them to do what they do (or don't do). I'd rather believe something more plausible (though kind of silly in of itself) i.e. world appeasement. I don't think the "why" matters as much. It's just the fact that they suck.
By your explanation, they don't suck at all! They are simply doing what they have to do to prevent endangering their own people. Since you think that is their motivation, and they are doing things for that reason, how can you possibly insult them or speak negatively about them? They are heroicly saving the Jewish people from harm according to you. You are a bigger zionist than me!
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Ok, and I am asserting that by making that statement you are definitely contradicting what Chaim constantly preaches about what Israel should do and what it could do. That's fine too, you don't have to agree or think the same way as Chaim. But to me it is obvious that you are clearly wrong about this! Israel if it had any guts, could do all the things Chaim talks about and Rabbi Kahane talked about.
There is backlash no matter what they do. No matter how politically correct they try to be. Haven't you learned that by now?
Some of us are sick and tired of these excuses and really do not care about backlash and do not care about what the world wants. Especially considering they send the backlash at us even when we do something completely parve, they manage to twist it and portray it negatively. Ok, so that's the best they got?
Some of us are ready to deal head on with backlash, come as it may, as long as we take care of the Arabs. What's more important here?
And some people, like me, are skeptical that there would really be such a backlash. I am skeptical that this is a manufactured premise designed to keep good Jews apathetic and shrug their shoulders and throw their hands up in the air and say "well, what can we do, we have no choice, what will america say." The oslo agenda gets carried out as long as there are enough Jews who are complacent like that and in utter dread and fear of this supposed "backlash" and the built-up persona given to the idea of Israel getting punished - a "conventional wisdom" built up by far leftists and media elites. One of those "conventional wisdoms" which in my mind is neither conventional nor wise.
There are many countries in the world, many of them behave according to their own interests, not what the UN wants or what the US wants or what one particular other country wants. They do not get beheaded or nuked. Most times they get cold relations at worst. Only very severe DIRECT AFFRONTS (ie an attack on america, or north korea saying it will nuke america) create actual military hostility. Most of the time, America will express how they don't like a policy and put pressure to try to get it according to their wishes. If that doesn't work, oh well. They are not going to send troops into Israel to make Israel treat Arabs gentler . It is not worth the time and effort of these other countries. LOL at the idea of them caring about Arabs. They certainly do not.
You didn't say something about Chaim, but when I contradicted some of your points, another poster here (brennan fan) defended you by saying that you said the same thing as Chaim, or that you are agreeing with Chaim on the points you made. So I simply tried to assert that is not true. Obviously, you don't have to agree with Chaim or with anyone. My main point is not that you differ from Chaim's views, but that your view is mistaken!
WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT SHOULD AND COULD DO. I was arguing about what it WON'T do. That's what this was about. We're not arguing about what it CAN or CAN'T do! I said it doesn't want to. When I said "can't" I explained that it 'can't' because it doesn't want to get in trouble, not that it would be impossible. This argument is about WHY IT WON'T. It CAN do whatever t wants, whenever it wants. But it won't. We all know what Israel CAN do, and we all know what it WON'T. That's what Brennanfan explained about my initial post.
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By your explanation, they don't suck at all! They are simply doing what they have to do to prevent endangering their own people. Since you think that is their motivation, and they are doing things for that reason, how can you possibly insult them or speak negatively about them? They are heroicly saving the Jewish people from harm according to you. You are a bigger zionist than me!
I said that it's not their first choice to endanger their own people. What does that have to do with the U.S.? yOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MJY MOUTH AGAIN. I NEVER SAID THEY ARE SAVING PEOPLE.
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Not true.
Mo is saying that Israel CANNOT disobey the US. Even if the leaders wanted to. That is definitely not what Chaim says.
Mo is saying that America gives a "ridiculous" amount of aid to Israel. The exact opposite of what Chaim says.
Read the quote again:
"Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous."
Mo's point is, Israel has no choice but to obey the US because without us foreign aid, (now I'm editorializing) all Israelis would starve and america would nuke Israel if they misbehaved, or something.
I don't disagree with anything Mo is saying. Almost 3 billion dollars a year is way too much money for the U.S. to give any country, friendly or not. Even if it is not nearly as important as people think it is psychologically a very powerful tool to keep Israelis enslaved to the idea that they are dependent on the U.S. to survive. Right now most Israelis do indeed feel that way and it would be terrifying for them if their leaders really wanted to "defy" the United States and go off of the money (not that they want to). So right now it would be impossible in this brainwashed state.
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OK look. Please. Both you guys. Stop It.
I never intended for two great JTFers I admire and respect immensely to be at each others' throats because of my thread.
I was saying that all Israelis who support these kangaroo proceedings against these seven Jewish kids deserve to be cursed. That's it. I'm not putting any qualifications on it or going any farther than that. Can't we agree on that much and drop this personal fight?
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I said that it's not their first choice to endanger their own people. What does that have to do with the U.S.? yOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MJY MOUTH AGAIN. I NEVER SAID THEY ARE SAVING PEOPLE.
I'll break it down: They don't WANT to endanger them, but they are. For whatever reason, they are hurting their own people. I choose to believe it's because they are afraid of the world's opinion. I don't know how you got anything else from that.
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So in other words you buy into the facade that Big Bad America and Big Brother Obama will whip bibi with a stick and "do something" to Israel if bibi does something about the arabs. And that these consequences are so bad that we should never dare confront such a scenario.
Do I believe that BHO might attack Israel? Yes, absolutely. I think even Chaim does. Israel has become so wimpy and cowardly over the past 15 years that I'm sure the head Muslim in charge thinks he can physically push her around.
Do I believe that Israel needs to take care of business anyway? Absolutely. With G-d on her side, BHO can do nothing.
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Until Brennanfan, the only ones I saw who use the slander "Israhell" are muslims and nazis.
I think Ron used to use that term. I won't use it anymore, ok?
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OK look. Please. Both you guys. Stop It.
I never intended for two great JTFers I admire and respect immensely to be at each others' throats because of my thread.
I was saying that all Israelis who support these kangaroo proceedings against these seven Jewish kids deserve to be cursed. That's it. I'm not putting any qualifications on it or going any farther than that. Can't we agree on that much and drop this personal fight?
You and muman understood exactly what I was saying, but he didn't. He literally twisted everything I said into something completely different. Whether or not it was my fault for not being more clear, I don't know. But you and Muman understood what I was getting at: Israel can obviously do whatever it wants, but it doesn't because it is afraid. That's all. I said nothing else. I really have no idea what KWRBT is trying to say I said.
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Do I believe that BHO might attack Israel? Yes, absolutely. I think even Chaim does. Israel has become so wimpy and cowardly over the past 15 years that I'm sure the head Muslim in charge thinks he can physically push her around.
Do I believe that Israel needs to take care of business anyway? Absolutely. With G-d on her side, BHO can do nothing.
Sorry I wasn't as concise as that. I agree with that.
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I don't disagree with anything Mo is saying. Almost 3 billion dollars a year is way too much money for the U.S. to give any country, friendly or not. Even if it is not nearly as important as people think it is psychologically a very powerful tool to keep Israelis enslaved to the idea that they are dependent on the U.S. to survive. Right now most Israelis do indeed feel that way and it would be terrifying for them if their leaders really wanted to "defy" the United States and go off of the money (not that they want to). So right now it would be impossible in this brainwashed state.
You thought CANNOT meant physically; Cannot, in this context, means will not, as in "I cannot just go to Burger King". It means not allowed to or won't due to other circumstances. I think that's the misunderstanding here.
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I think Ron used to use that term. I won't use it anymore, ok?
Deal :)
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Haven't read all the posts but wanted to reply to something KWRBT was saying about the U.S. True Israel CAN defy American pressure, but the facts are that their is psychological pressure on a certain (high) level, where Israelis and Jews are lead to believe that Israel exists and survives on the good will of America. Of-course that is a lie. Israel was victorious DESPITE America and its greatest victory in 1967 happened because it did not listen to America. Also the giving away of land happened
(greatly) because of the America card that the leftists have been playing. If not for the leftists and America Israel would have more then the 3 Billion per year that America gives it by its oil in the Sinai and more land and assets etc. Nations have interests and don't think that America is just a generous country that loves to spend $ everywhere. They do it for control.
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You and muman understood exactly what I was saying, but he didn't. He literally twisted everything I said into something completely different. Whether or not it was my fault for not being more clear, I don't know. But you and Muman understood what I was getting at: Israel can obviously do whatever it wants, but it doesn't because it is afraid. That's all. I said nothing else. I really have no idea what KWRBT is trying to say I said.
Here I disagree with you. KWR is a very good Jew and member of this forum and I do not think he has this grudge out for you. I think you both need to forget this and start over fresh.
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For what I have been saying, just now I read this one youtube someone responding to me
WE HAVE ARMY TO DO IT!!!! when we do such things we are the same [censored] as the Islamists, where is our morality? not for them but for ourselves, do you think i care about the Arabs? as far as i concerned they can all burn tomorrow, and i won't be sad about it, i care for my own people, i care for Israel, and when we do such things then those who should be our allies in the west think that we are the aggressive, and we need to west with us not against us, at least we should be humane.
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I said that it's not their first choice to endanger their own people. What does that have to do with the U.S.? yOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MJY MOUTH AGAIN. I NEVER SAID THEY ARE SAVING PEOPLE.
The US? I don't know, I didn't mention the US in my comment that you quoted.
I didn't say that YOU SAID they are saving people. I am drawing a logical conclusion from what you did say.
IF (according to you) the Israeli leaders behave the way they do because they don't want to endanger their own people, THEN how can you, Mo, condemn them? By that logic they have good intentions (MY LOGICAL CONCLUSION FROM WHAT YOU SAID ¡ DOES NOT CLAIM THAT YOU SAID THIS- I assert that you imply this by what you said and is the only logical conclusion to draw) and if they have good intentions to prevent harm to the israeli people then what exactly is your beef with them. BY THAT LOGIC, you should celebrate them. (I'm not saying you DO or DID celebrate them, saying you should based on your line of reasoning. And thus calling you zionist was obviously tongue in cheek, not putting words in your mouth. But really why would you not be zionist then? It sounds to me like the israeli leaders are heroic the way you describe them.)
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I'll break it down: They don't WANT to endanger them, but they are. For whatever reason, they are hurting their own people. I choose to believe it's because they are afraid of the world's opinion. I don't know how you got anything else from that.
It sounded to me before that you were saying that the motivation for why israel does not defy the us demands is because the leaders of israel want to avoid thewhatever resulting harm would come upon israelis for doing that. That was what prompted my other comments. Did you not say something like that?
I must have been confused by certain comments.
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Do I believe that BHO might attack Israel? Yes, absolutely.
That is not a rational belief. No matter how much he hates israel, and boy does he ever, that is still not a realistic scenario under any circumstance.
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AMALEK!
Amalek is certainly at work in this situation. The gematria of Amalek is the same as the gematria of Safek, or doubt.
What I am saying is that the doubt which enters the minds of the so-called leaders of Israel, and the average Israeli who doesn't know much about Judaism, causes them to fear what will happen if they don't dance to the tune of America, and more so the 'world opinion' which Mo is talking about.
Amalek, the force which we are supposed to confront and to destroy causes us to instead fear and cower. They, and some of us too, are afraid of what happens if G-d Forbid, Hashem is not with us. This is also what led to many of the problems our forefathers had in the desert when the sin of the spies transpired. Those who have strong faith in the promise of our G-d will know in their hearts and minds that it is possible to do what Hashem wants, with his assistance if we put in the effort. We must not be afraid, but it is difficult because of the wicked winds of Amalek which blow through us.
This is my opinion...
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I think Jews in general have a complex they need to get over. The desperate need to be loved or perceive a gesture of love.
Say israel does the right thing on some random issue. Like when they rescued people in haiti. But the media spins it negative. Who the hell cares? Are we in a popularity contest? Are we that insecure and emotionally unstable?
Individuals mature by realizing they do not need the validation from others. That's how true self confidence is born. The Jewish people needs to mature on a national level.
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I think Jews in general have a complex they need to get over. The desperate need to be loved or perceive a gesture of love.
Say israel does the right thing on some random issue. Like when they rescued people in haiti. But the media spins it negative. Who the hell cares? Are we in a popularity contest? Are we that insecure and emotionally unstable?
Individuals mature by realizing they do not need the validation from others. That's how true self confidence is born. The Jewish people needs to mature on a national level.
I agree with you 100% on this... I do not care what people think of me because I know who I am, I know what I believe about Hashem and the nature of our world, and I separate myself from the mundane and move toward the Holy.
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That is not a rational belief. No matter how much he hates israel, and boy does he ever, that is still not a realistic scenario under any circumstance.
You had better ask Chaim about that.
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That is not a rational belief. No matter how much he hates israel, and boy does he ever, that is still not a realistic scenario under any circumstance.
Outright? Probably not, but definitely you can see troops deployed all for "friendly" missions that is for sure. For example supposedly protecting both sides. Taking over in a friendly way, don't be fooled.
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True. It's tip-toeing a very fine line. But brennan's criticism (like Ron's) is valid, even if stated in uncomfortable terms. I agree however with the title change because we don't want people to get the wrong impression if they are a newbie or if someone just sees the thread and doesn't read it inside, so they don't get what point he's actually making.
Good point KWRBT :)
Rubystars, I completely agree with the content of Brennanfan's post. I just had a problem with the title.
I like how the new title still gets the point across in an effective way.
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Don't forget all the "treaties" and the deals that caused Israel to give land to the Arabs. Obama is breathing down Israel's back. The pressure is real. Stop building this, stop building that, settlement freeze etc. Why did they listen to everybody else about the freezes? Why couldn't they just say "screw it" and start building?
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Don't forget all the "treaties" and the deals that caused Israel to give land to the Arabs. Obama is breathing down Israel's back. The pressure is real. Stop building this, stop building that, settlement freeze etc. Why did they listen to everybody else about the freezes? Why couldn't they just say "screw it" and start building?
Balls.
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Don't forget all the "treaties" and the deals that caused Israel to give land to the Arabs. Obama is breathing down Israel's back. The pressure is real. Stop building this, stop building that, settlement freeze etc. Why did they listen to everybody else about the freezes? Why couldn't they just say "screw it" and start building?
Because of policy of appeasement. What will the goyim say? They think that appeasing the nations will make them love Israel for it.
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:dance:
Kahane was right BT, you wrote one of the best posts I've ever seen. If only the "crazy Jews" would learn from this
wisdom and finally change to the way they should be! I like your values.
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Because of policy of appeasement. What will the goyim say? They think that appeasing the nations will make them love Israel for it.
bingo