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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 02:51:02 AM

Title: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 02:51:02 AM
Shalom and Good Morning,

I have been watching, and sharing, a series by professor Abramson on Jewish history. One cannot look at recent Jewish history without confronting a sad fact that Jews have been so weary of the exile that they sometimes wish the messiah comes so badly that they are led astray.

False messiahs are a fact of Jewish life and sometimes it is hard to really want Moshiach to come without thinking maybe we are going to follow the path of the messianic failures. I know this very vividly being a part of Chabad where their Rebbe was considered a potential messianic figure (and taken to the extreme by some individuals).

The particular case of Shabbatia Tzvi is worth investigating. As someone mentioned in the 'Roman - Jewish War' thread there have been some false messiahs who relied heavily on mystical ideas which were not sound according to Jewish law. But because of the mass hysteria of the age the Jews were led to believe things which were wrong, and they were sadly disappointed by this messianic failure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Sd2KG2wl4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi

Quote
Sabbatai Zevi (שַׁבְּתַי צְבִי Shabbetai Tzvi, other spellings include Sabbatai Ẓevi, Shabbetai Ẓevi, Sabbatai Sevi, and Sabetay Sevi in Turkish) (August 1, 1626 – c. September 17, 1676[1]) was a Sephardic Rabbi[2] and kabbalist who claimed to be the long-awaited Jewish Messiah. He was the founder of the Jewish Sabbatean movement.

In February of 1666, upon his arrival in Constantinople, Sabbatai was imprisoned following orders issued by the grand vizier Ahmed Köprülü; in September of that same year, after being moved from different prisons around the capital to Adrianople (the imperial court's seat) for judgement on accusations of fomenting sedition, Sabbatai was given by Köprülü, in the name of the Sultan Mehmed IV, the choice of either facing death by some type of ordeal, or of converting to Islam. Sabbatai seems to have chosen the latter by donning on his head from then on a Turkish turban. He was then also rewarded by the heads of the Ottoman state with a generous pension for his compliance with their political and religious plans.[3] Some of his followers also converted to Islam—about 300 families who were known as the Dönmeh (converts).[4]
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 13, 2015, 03:12:15 AM
Well, despite all the bad that tzvi did, I have heard it said by some that he contributed to Zionism, to the urge to resettle the land. For people in those times I doubt there could be any other real catalyst for movement out of galut other than a potential moshiach. We have to consider that bar kochba was living in the land, which is an entirely different situation. For someone chutz haretz to gather the chutzpah to start a messianic ingathering movement was a different challenge.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Debbie Shafer on May 13, 2015, 08:35:35 AM
Matthew 24:4  Jesus said to his disciples stating what the Signs of the End of the Age were....."Watch out that no one deceives you.  For many will come in my name, claiming, " I am the Christ, and will deceive many.  The World is full of deception as predicted and false prophets with counterfeit signs of spiritual power and authority are trying to deceive man who is not grounded in the truth!
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 09:25:04 AM
Matthew 24:4  Jesus said to his disciples stating what the Signs of the End of the Age were....."Watch out that no one deceives you.  For many will come in my name, claiming, " I am the Christ, and will deceive many.  The World is full of deception as predicted and false prophets with counterfeit signs of spiritual power and authority are trying to deceive man who is not grounded in the truth!

Yes.. And that one did enough damage.. Another false messiah during a period of oppression by Rome.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2015, 10:13:13 AM
Well, despite all the bad that tzvi did, I have heard it said by some that he contributed to Zionism, to the urge to resettle the land. For people in those times I doubt there could be any other real catalyst for movement out of galut other than a potential moshiach. We have to consider that bar kochba was living in the land, which is an entirely different situation. For someone chutz haretz to gather the chutzpah to start a messianic ingathering movement was a different challenge.

?!

There is no connection whatsoever between Shabtai Tzvi and zionism.  He lived in a completely different era and time period.  Whoever you heard it from is either a sabbatean or frankist or they are totally misinformed and have no idea what they're talking about. 

Shabtai tzvi was an evil and disgusting person who perverted the kabballah for his personal gain and misled maybe even half of the Jewish people with his and nathan of gaza's corrupt exegesis of the zohar.   It is in fact the example above all examples of why the halacha must supercede the kaballah always and axiomatically.  Because his derivations within kaballa were accepted as valid interpretations by many kabbalists and esteemed rabbis of that time!  If we do not employ the halachic safeguards which are inviolable, the logical conclusion of where it will take us is to the tyranny of evil as promoted by shabtai tzvi jacob frank et al.   It is one of many valid reasons I keep a skeptical eye towards mysticism and I identify with the mainstream strand of Judaism which utilizes kabala for some interpretation and some hashkafic concepts but keeps the halacha (Jewish law) sacrosanct and legally binding on all Jews.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2015, 10:19:57 AM
Muman, I think you should consider altering the title of your thread.   Whether false or real messiah, no one is supposed to worship him.  It's a person regardless.   

The fact is that the exile also distorted the Jews conception of what the messiah actually is, largely due to being surrounded and inundated with certain nonJewish religions that put a spin on it and warped it into their own theology.  It seems we are never immune from influences from the surrounding culture as we can witness ourselves today.   But that distortion of original ideas and lack of true understanding was a volatile mix with shabtao tzvi's cult persona and mysticism and directly led to his popularity in a major way.   We need to ask ourselves what truly is a messiah in Jewish belief.  I think when we answer that question authentically from the sources and know it well, we can never fall for a charlatan like tzvi.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2015, 10:22:41 AM
For someone chutz haretz to gather the chutzpah to start a messianic ingathering movement was a different challenge.

Let's be clear, that was not what tzvi was trying to do.  You are whitewashing him.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 13, 2015, 10:58:24 AM
I would definitely give Shabatai the benefit of the doubt. If you watched the lecture you would hear that kabbalists in north Israel of the time were working to bring the messiah and were creating a situation of expectation where someone who may not have been qualified would want to claim to be the one and fulfill the expectations.

I can agree with a lot of what you say and I have stated before that I think much of the kabbalistic stuff is mystical nonsense which can by it's very nature be distorted and used for personal gain. However the fact that Shabatai started assigning land as though he were emperor is not surprising. The problem with the concept of messiah is that everyone in this world has to create their identity in relationship to the people they are surrounded by and if the messiah is basically, by definition is the most powerful person in the world and probably in history it is a natural psychological following that any mortal attempting to fulfill this role would see themselves as having the authority to do certain things such as give land to whoever he wants.

There is a saying:"power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely" and in human nature we have seen with almost all leaders this is basically true. So my criticism is not really targeted at people like Shabatai but against whoever created the concept of the messiah, who, if successful (if everyone agreed he was messiah), would probably have more power than any dictator that ever lived.

The problem was not entirely with Shabatai but with the very concept and legend of messiah itself. To be honest I have thought it over and it is a barely realistic legend; I doubt anyone, not Bar Kochba or any other mortal could live up to the expectations of both the pious of Israel and those who are not so religious. If messiah is only for those straight A students who keep all the law than a large part of Israel would be very let down the instant messiah comes.  I think it is time to do away with the idea of one man as messiah. It has never worked before and I don't see it working now. But who knows; maybe there is some man God can send into the world to accomplish this impossible task; if it is possible, I'm sure I have never met anyone even close to having this ability.

I'm not saying I admire or would follow Shabatai, but I wouldn't judge him so harshly; he sounds like a funny guy with a bit of an eccentric flair. If you are expecting some straight edge messiah good luck; only someone partly crazy, a bit arrogant and yes, probably extremely vain would even dream of fulfilling the role of the expectation of all humanity.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 12:30:12 PM
Shai77,

Belief in the Moshiach is one of Rambams 13 Principles of Judaism and it is a commandment to await the coming of Moshiach every day. It is not an optional part of normative Jewish belief.

We believe Hashem sent the 1st Moshiach through Moses. And when we are redeemed once again it will be similar to the exodus from Mitzrayim. Moshiach will come because the prophets tell us this is so.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 12:37:48 PM
Muman, I think you should consider altering the title of your thread.   Whether false or real messiah, no one is supposed to worship him.  It's a person regardless.   

The fact is that the exile also distorted the Jews conception of what the messiah actually is, largely due to being surrounded and inundated with certain nonJewish religions that put a spin on it and warped it into their own theology.  It seems we are never immune from influences from the surrounding culture as we can witness ourselves today.   But that distortion of original ideas and lack of true understanding was a volatile mix with shabtao tzvi's cult persona and mysticism and directly led to his popularity in a major way.   We need to ask ourselves what truly is a messiah in Jewish belief.  I think when we answer that question authentically from the sources and know it well, we can never fall for a charlatan like tzvi.

You are correct that Moshiach is never to be worshiped. But in a way those who followed this man were ascribing divine traits to a man who, upon examination, was a full-blown mental case. They placed their trust in a man rather than their father in Shamayim to the extent that their lives were damaged.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 12:39:54 PM
If Judaism is a belief system then Rambam codified these beliefs into 13 principles of faith.

They are:

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G-d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G-d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G-d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G-d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 12:43:30 PM
The 12th principle (in that list) was made into a song which was sung by Jews being led to slaughter during the Holocaust. The 'Ani Maamim' (I believe completely) song is famous and has been adapted. The following 'hip hop' tune expresses the Jewish faith that Moshiach will come.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrjJjWEAUNU
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 12:49:45 PM
The more 'traditional' rendition of Ani Maamim by Mordechai Ben David...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GBxy0zcXks

Ani maamin beemuna shlemah
B'viat hamashiach
V'af al pi sheyitmameha
Im kol zeh achake lo
B'chol yom sheyavo


I believe with a complete belief
In the coming of the Messiah
And even though he may tarry
I will wait for him, whenever he comes
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 13, 2015, 01:25:21 PM
Shai77,

Belief in the Moshiach is one of Rambams 13 Principles of Judaism and it is a commandment to await the coming of Moshiach every day. It is not an optional part of normative Jewish belief.

We believe Hashem sent the 1st Moshiach through Moses. And when we are redeemed once again it will be similar to the exodus from Mitzrayim. Moshiach will come because the prophets tell us this is so.


Fine but Moses was directly called by G-d and had direct leadership from the voice of G-d. The current situation is at least as difficult as the one in Egypt with the lack of modesty and new forms of media.

If G-d is no longer speaking directly to anyone and hasn't in maybe 2,000 yrs, how could Jews expect anyone other than what most people would call 'a mental case who claims to hear prophecy' to claim to be messiah?
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Dr. Dan on May 13, 2015, 03:32:39 PM
I personally think that if we don't think about it or talk about the messiah and just do what's right, he will be here before we know it.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 04:17:10 PM
While I respect your opinion Dr Dan, Rambam does not entirely agree with you. He says that an observant Jew (actually all Jews) should await the coming of Moshiach every day.... I have reproduced a portion of Rambams Hilchot Milachim (Laws of Kings) for those who have not seen what the Rambam says about this.


http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101744/jewish/Laws-Concerning-Kings-and-the-Messiah.htm

MISHNEH TORAH:
Hilchot Melachim
Laws Concerning Kings

Chapter XI

1. The Messianic King will arise in the future and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its former state and original sovereignty. He will build the Sanctuary1 and gather the dispersed of Israel.2 All the laws will be re-instituted in his days as they had been aforetimes;3 sacrifices will be offered, and the Sabbatical years and Jubilee years will be observed4 fully as ordained by the Torah.5

Anyone who does not believe in [Mashiach], or whoever does not look forward to his coming,6 denies not only [the teachings of] the other prophets but [also those] of the Torah and of Moses our Teacher. For the Torah attested to him, as it is said:

“G-d, your G-d, will return your captivity and have mercy on you. He will return and gather you [from all the nations whither G-d, your G-d, has scattered you]. If your banished shall be at the utmost end of the heavens [G-d, your G-d, will gather you from there]… and G-d, your G-d, will bring you [to the land that your fathers possessed, and you will possess it]…”7

These words, explicitly stated in the Torah, include all the [Messianic] statements made by all the prophets.

There is reference [to this principle] also in the section of Bilam.8 There he prophesied about the two meshichim (anointed ones): the first anointed one who is [King] David who saved Israel from the hand of their oppressors; and the final anointed one [i.e., Mashiach] who will arise from [the former’s] descendants and save Israel in the end.9 Thus it says there:

“I see him, but not now”10 this refers to David;

“I behold him, but not nigh” this refers to the Messianic King.

“A star steps out from Jacob” this refers to David;

“and a scepter will arise from Israel” this refers to the Messianic King.

“He will smite the great ones of Moab” this refers to David, as it says, “He smote Moab and measured them with a rope;”11

“and break all the children of Seth” this refers to the Messianic King, of whom it is said, “His rule will be from sea to sea.”12

“Edom will be a possession”13 this refers to David, as it is said, “Edom became servants to David;14

“[and Seir] shall be a possession” this refers to the Messianic King, as it is said, “Saviors shall ascend Mount Zion [to judge the mount of Esau]…”15

2. In context of the “cities of refuge,” too, it says, “When G-d, your G-d, will expand your borders… you shall add three additional cities…”16 This has never yet taken place, and the Holy One, blessed is He, does not command anything in vain.17

As for the [other] prophets’ utterances [about Mashiach], there is no need for prooftexts as all the [prophets’] books are full of this concept.

3. Do not think that the Messianic King will have to perform signs and wonders and bring about novel things in the world, or resurrect the dead, and other such things. It is not so.18 This is seen from the fact that Rabbi Akiva was a great sage, of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was an armor-bearer of King Bar Koziba19 and said of him that he is the Messianic King: [R. Akiva] and all the wise men of his generation considered him to be the Messianic King until [Bar Koziba] was killed because of sins, and when he was killed they realized that he was not;20 but the sages had not asked him for any sign or wonder.

The essence of all this is that this Torah [of ours], its statutes and its laws, are forever and all eternity, and nothing is to be added to them or diminished from them.21

(Whoever adds or diminishes anything, or interprets the Torah to change the plain sense of the commandments, is surely an impostor, wicked, and a heretic.)22

4. If a king arises from the House of David23 who meditates on the Torah and occupies himself with the commandments like his ancestor David, in accordance with the written and oral Torah,24 and he will prevail upon all of Israel to walk in [the ways of the Torah] and strengthen its breaches,25 and he will fight the battles of G-d26 it may be assumed that he is Mashiach.27

If he did [these things] successfully (and defeated all the nations around him28), built the Sanctuary on its site29 and gathered the dispersed of Israel he is definitely Mashiach!30 He will [then] correct the entire world to serve G-d in unity, as it is said, “For then I will turn to the peoples a pure tongue that all shall call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one consent.”31

(If he did not succeed to that extent or was killed, it is clear that he is not the [Mashiach] promised by the Torah … for all the prophets said that Mashiach is the redeemer of Israel and their savior, and he gathers their dispersed and reinforces their commandments…)32

Chapter XII

1. One is not to presume that anything of the ways of the world will be set aside in the Messianic era, or that there will be any innovation in the order of creation; rather, the world will continue according to its norms.33

As for that which is said in Isaiah, that “the wolf will dwell with the sheep and the leopard will lie down with the kid” 34 this is an allegory and metaphor. It means that Israel shall dwell securely alongside the wicked heathens who are likened to wolves and leopards, as it is said “a wolf from the plains ravages, a leopard lies in wait over their cities.”35 [In the Messianic era] all will return to the true religion and will neither steal nor destroy, but consume that which is permitted, in repose alongside Israel, as it is said, “the lion will eat straw like the ox.”36 All other such expressions are also allegories, and in the era of the Messianic King everyone will come to know what the allegory is about and what allusions are indicated.37

2. The sages said: “There is no difference between the present age and the Messianic era but [delivery from] subjection to foreign powers.”38

From the plain sense of the words of the prophets it is apparent that in the beginning of the Messianic era will occur the war of Gog and Magog;39 and that prior to the war of Gog and Magog a prophet will arise to correct Israel and to prepare their hearts, as it is said, “Behold, I am sending you the prophet Elijah [before the coming of the great and awesome day of G-d].”40 He will not come to declare the pure impure or the impure pure, nor to disqualify people presumed to be of legitimate lineage or to legitimize those presumed to be of disqualified lineage;41 but to establish peace in the world, as it is said, “He will turn the heart of the fathers to the children…”42

Some sages say that Elijah will come before the coming of Mashiach.43

All these and similar matters, however, man will not know how they will occur until they come to pass; for in the [statements of the] prophets these are undefined matters, and the sages, too, do not have a clear tradition on these subjects except for the [apparent] implications of the Scriptural verses. That is why they have differences of opinion in these matters. In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their details are fundamental to the faith.

A person should not involve himself with the homiletical statements or protract on the Midrashim speaking of these or similar matters, nor is one to consider them fundamental; for they do not lead to either fear or love [of G-d].44

Likewise, one is not to calculate “ends” [dates of the Messianic redemption]. The sages said, “May the spirit expire of those who calculate the ‘ends.’ ”45 Rather, one is to await [the redemption] and believe the principle of this matter as we have explained.

3. In the era of the Messianic King, when his kingdom will be established and all of Israel will gather around him, all of them will have their pedigree determined by him,46 by means of the Holy Spirit that will rest upon him, as it is said, “He will sit as a refiner and purifier.”47 First he will purify the descendants of Levi,48 saying “This one is a legitimate Kohen (priest), and this one is a legitimate Levite,” while diverting those of improper lineage to the [rank of] Israelites.49 Thus it is said, “The governor [Nechemiah] said to them… until there will rise a Kohen with the Urim and Tumim;”50 from this you can infer that the determination of presumed pedigree and the public declaration of lineage is by means of the Holy Spirit.51

As for the Israelites, he will only determine their tribal lineage, that is, he will inform that “this one is of such-and-such a tribe and that one is of such-and-such a tribe.”52 He will not pronounce on those presumed to be of legitimate ancestry that “this one is a mamzer and that one is a ‘slave’;”53 for the law stipulates that once a family is intermixed [with the Jewish community at large] it remains intermixed.54

4. The sages and the prophets did not long for the Messianic era so that they may rule over the whole world or dominate the heathens, nor to be exalted by the nations, nor in order that they may eat, drink and be merry; but only to be free [for involvement] with the Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress and disturb them, so that they may merit the life of the World-to-Come, as we explained in Hilchot Teshuvah.55

5. In that era there will be neither famine56 nor war,57 neither envy nor strife,58 because good will emanate in abundance and all delightful things will be accessible as dust.59 The one preoccupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Israelites, therefore, will be great sages and know the hidden matters,60 and they will attain knowledge of their Creator to the extent of human capacity, as it is said: “The earth shall be full with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the sea!”61
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 04:23:18 PM
What is gained by this waiting? As Shai indicates that it sometimes get's hard to continue to believe that the Moshiach will be sent considering all the terrible persecutions and troubles the Jewish people have endured. Maybe the belief in Moshiach causes Jews to fall away from trust and faith because he has not been sent... But there are reasons why we are told to await his coming.



http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/100903/jewish/Awaiting-Mashiach.htm

VII. Awaiting Mashiach

A. The Obligation to Await

“The vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak and not lie. Though he tarry wait for him, for it will surely come… it will not be late!” (Habakuk 2:3)

“Therefore wait for Me, says G-d, for the day that I rise to the prey; for My judgment is to gather nations, that I assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them My indignation, all My fierce anger. For all the earth shall be consumed by the fire of My jealousy.” (Zephaniah 3:8)1

“Happy are all those that wait for him.” (Isaiah 30:18)2

Waiting for Mashiach<, anticipating his coming, is not simply a virtue but a religious obligation. Rambam thus rules that whoever does not believe in and whoever does not await (eagerly looking forward to) the coming of Mashiach, in effect denies the whole Torah, all the prophets beginning with Moses.3 In the popular formulation of his thirteen Principles of the Faith (the hymn of Ani Ma’amin) this is put as follows:

“I believe with complete faith in the coming of Mashiach. Though he tarry, nonetheless I await him every day, that he will come.”

As stated above,4 some authorities view this principle as an integral part of the first of the Ten Commandments which states “Anochi I am G-d, your G-d, who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” (Exodus 20:2) The connection may be seen in the fact that the initial word Anochi is linked with redemption:

“Anochi signifies the first redemption from Egypt and the last redemption through Mashiach.”5 Anochi is an explicit expression of compassion, consolation and comfort.6 Indeed, Anochi is an acronym with every one of its four letters signifying Biblical prophecies of the Messianic consolations and comfort.7

In view of this legal obligation to await Mashiach, therefore, one of the first questions an individual is asked on the Day of Divine Judgment is “Tzipita liyeshu’ah did you look forward to salvation?”8

To believe in the coming of Mashiach and to await it are two separate concepts. “To believe” is a doctrinal affirmation as for any other part of the Torah: affirming the principle of Mashiach who will come eventually, whenever that may be. “To await” means an active and eager anticipation of the redemption, that it occur speedily: “I await him every day…,” literally:9

“In ikveta deMeshicha (on the ‘heels of Mashiach,’ i.e.,) when the time arrives for the glory of G-d to be revealed in the world through the coming of our righteous Mashiach, there will surely be leaders of Israel… who will urge the masses of Israel to strengthen the faith and to return with teshuvah, and to arouse the people to prepare themselves with teshuvah and good deeds for the coming of Mashiach…

“In those days there will also be people of little faith who will not believe those words, even as we find that during the Egyptian exile ‘they did not listen to Moses because of anguished spirit and hard labor’ (Exodus 6:9)…

“Each one will argue that he does not question the truth of the possibility of the redemption, but merely doubts the time of the redemption as to when it will occur. Yet there is an explicit verse in Malachi (3:1) that ‘The lord whom you seek (i.e., the king Mashiach) will suddenly come to his palace, and the messenger of the covenant whom you desire (i.e., Elijah the prophet), behold he comes…’ At the very least, therefore, one is to consider every day that perhaps he will come that day. We find this reflected in the explicit ruling in the Gemara10Chafetz Chaim, Chizuk Emunah, quoted in Chafetz Chaim al Hatorah, Vayera, p. 56f., note 2. Note also Torat Ze’ev, quoted in Hagadah shel Pesach Mibet Levi [Brisk], p. 120: “It is incumbent to await the coming of Mashiach every single day, and all day long… It is not enough to believe in the coming of Mashiach, but each day one must await his coming… Furthermore, it is not enough to await his coming every day, but it is to be in the manner of our prayer ‘we await Your salvation all the day,’ that is, to await and expect it every day, and all day long, literally every moment!”09

B. Kivuy: The Merit and Effect of Awaiting

“Everything is (bound up) with kivuy (hoping; awaiting).”11See Targum Yehonathan, and Bereishit Rabba 98:14, on this verse.12Shemot Rabba 30:2412

“When the Israelites enter the synagogues and houses of study, they say to the Holy One, blessed be He, ‘Redeem us!’ He responds to them: ‘Are there righteous people among you? Are there G-d-fearing people among you?’ They reply: ‘In the past… there were… Nowadays, however, as we go from generation to generation it grows darker for us…’ The Holy One, blessed be He, then says to them: ‘Trust in My Name and I shall stand by you… for I shall save whoever trusts in My Name.’ ”13Midrash Tehilim 40:114

Though the study of Torah is ever so important, the need to await and hope for the redemption is addressed especially to the scholars and students of Torah, as G-d rebukes them: “Though the words of the Torah are beloved unto you, you did not do right in awaiting My Torah but not (the restoration of) My Kingdom.”14

“[The patriarchs] exclaimed before Him: ‘Master of the universe, maybe there is no restoration for the children?’ He said to them: ‘When there is a generation that looks forward to My Kingdom, they will be redeemed immediately,’ as it is said, ‘There is hope for your future, says G-d, that (your) children shall return to their own boundary’ (Jeremiah 31:16).”15

The daily Amidah contains the request, “Speedily cause the offspring of Your servant David to flourish and enhance his power through Your salvation, for we hope for Your salvation all the day…” The last phrase, “for we hope…,” seems strange: what kind of reasoning is that? If we justly deserve the redemption, we shall merit it even without that hope; if we do not deserve it, of what avail will that hope be? The meaning, however, is clear:

“Speedily cause the offspring of Your servant David to flourish…;” and if it should be said that we lack merit, cause it to flourish anyway “because we hope for your salvation…,” that is, because we have the kivuy (hope). By virtue of that kivuy we deserve that You redeem us!16

C. Demanding Mashiach

True belief in the Messianic redemption is reflected and verified in sincere anticipation, in eagerly looking forward to the coming of Mashiach. In turn, the sincerity of this hope and awaiting is tested by what is done to achieve it. For something truly desired one will ask and beg, demand, and do everything possible to attain it. The same applies to the obligatory awaiting and anticipation of Mashiach.

G-d insists that we prove the sincerity of our claim to want Mashiach by doing everything in our power to bring it about, including storming the Gates of Heaven with demands for the redemption:

“The children of Israel shall sit many days without king and without prince, and without sacrifice… Thereafter, the children of Israel shall return and ask for G-d, their G-d, and for David their king, and they shall be in fear before G-d and (hope) for His goodness in the end of days.” (Hosea 3:4-5)

“Ask for G-d” refers to the restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven; “David their king” the restoration of the Kingdom of the House of David, through Mashiach; “fear before G-d… His goodness” the restoration of the Bet Hamikdash. For Israel will not see the redemption until they shall return and ask for these!17

“Israel shall not be redeemed until they will confess and demand the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of the House of David, and the Bet Hamikdash!”18

R. Shimon bar Yochai taught a parable of a man who punished his son. The son did not know why he was being punished, but thereafter his father said to him: “Now go and do that which I had ordered you many days ago and you ignored me.”

“Even so, all the thousands that perished in battle in the days of David, perished only because they did not demand that the Bet Hamikdash be built. This presents an a fortiori argument:

“If this happened to those in whose midst there had not been a Bet Hamikdash, which, therefore, was not destroyed in their days, yet they were punished for not demanding it, how much more so then with regards to ourselves in whose days the Bet Hamikdash is destroyed and we do not mourn it and do not seek mercy for it!”19

We pray for the redemption several times every day. Even so, requesting by itself is not enough. One must demand the redemption, just as with the wages of a hired worker: the law stipulates that if the worker does not demand his wages, there is no obligation to give it to him on the very day that he completes his work.20 So, too, we must demand our redemption. Failure to do so shows that this matter is clearly not that urgent to us!21
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 13, 2015, 04:30:51 PM
Prodezra Beats discusses this long wait in his song 'Until When II'..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVl2OD9RHlc

And also in 'Where are you?'...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vs1FMGsPCI
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2015, 07:52:06 PM
I would definitely give Shabatai the benefit of the doubt. If you watched the lecture you would hear that kabbalists in north Israel of the time were working to bring the messiah and were creating a situation of expectation where someone who may not have been qualified would want to claim to be the one and fulfill the expectations.

I am astounded that you could say something like this.   You must not realize the damage this phony and creep did to the Jewish people.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2015, 07:58:16 PM
Fine but Moses was directly called by G-d and had direct leadership from the voice of G-d. The current situation is at least as difficult as the one in Egypt with the lack of modesty and new forms of media.

If G-d is no longer speaking directly to anyone and hasn't in maybe 2,000 yrs, how could Jews expect anyone other than what most people would call 'a mental case who claims to hear prophecy' to claim to be messiah?

As I mentioned before, it's important that we understand what exactly the messiah is.   The concept became distorted and misunderstood in the exile due to the influence of foreign religions, mysticism etc.  That is a big reason why a faker like shabtai tzvi even got a cult following to begin with.   The criteria for who is a messiah are NOT related to the claims the tzvi was making about himself or what nathan of aza was saying about him.   We are not waiting for a miracle worker to show up and bring us onto his spaceship.  We do not need to drink the kool aid.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 13, 2015, 08:09:01 PM
I am astounded that you could say something like this.   You must not realize the damage this phony and creep did to the Jewish people.
Shabatai; A loner, a poet, a singer, a bit of a seducer and leading luminary of false messianism; Shabatai was as the good lord made him and was warped by influences of a world he didn't create. He probably sincerely wanted to build the Temple but didn't have the means to do so. May he be exonerated and rest in peace.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 13, 2015, 08:45:18 PM
As I mentioned before, it's important that we understand what exactly the messiah is.   The concept became distorted and misunderstood in the exile due to the influence of foreign religions, mysticism etc.  That is a big reason why a faker like shabtai tzvi even got a cult following to begin with.   The criteria for who is a messiah are NOT related to the claims the tzvi was making about himself or what nathan of aza was saying about him.   We are not waiting for a miracle worker to show up and bring us onto his spaceship.  We do not need to drink the kool aid.
As I mentioned before, it's important that we understand what exactly the messiah is.   The concept became distorted and misunderstood in the exile due to the influence of foreign religions, mysticism etc.  That is a big reason why a faker like shabtai tzvi even got a cult following to begin with.   The criteria for who is a messiah are NOT related to the claims the tzvi was making about himself or what nathan of aza was saying about him.   We are not waiting for a miracle worker to show up and bring us onto his spaceship.  We do not need to drink the kool aid.

Obviously; With all the Christ imagery the image of messiah has been severely distorted (may all who maliciously and knowingly perpetuated this myth take the punishment they deserve for portraying the messiah as an unmarried Jew who died without children at 33, but may those who don't know better be forgiven).

If God is not speaking to anyone in Israel then someone like Shabatai is what we get. If Moses had to be urged, practically forced to carry out his messianic task in Egypt then imagine what would be required today for the real, successful messiah?

The problem is that the criteria for who is a messiah as outlined by Maimonides is that he in-gathers the exiles and builds the temple but how can someone who tried to do some of these things succeed in doing that without direct guidance or prophecy? I think the concept is inherently flawed; I think it is flawed to think that anyone can really earn the title of messiah no matter what they do; they would have to be sent and strongly urged; This goes to more questions of free will etc...but it would take some sort of super-human courage and perfect knowledge combined with matchless people skills without direct contact with the divine.

It also creates conflicts with people who actively want to do these things; if you agree with some of what Maimonides says, it could be construed than anyone who attempts the ingathering of exiles but doesn't claim to be Moshiach is a faker, like NK ideology. Or, what then is the Temple Institute doing? Maybe they are just gathering the materials for Moshiach to use or are they actively seeking to rebuild it?

Even Moses said something like send who you will send but don't make me do this. Therefore messiah would have to be greater than Moses. I don't think people worshipped Shabatai Tzvi, they simply wanted an object for their messianic longing, someone who could give them what they've been promised. In this way, they are basically all innocent; they were downtrodden folk who wanted to be the main actors in an uplifting religious saga that was staged long ago.

But don't listen to me; Personally, I'm not that big a fan of God for putting Israel in too much suspense, for waiting too long and for allowing the false imagery of messiah to spread throughout the world. I don't want so much freewill if the punishments are as the Torah claims; and some of the trials, temptations and riddles of faith were just too much for mortals. I'm a bit of a fan of some of Voltaire's quotes.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 13, 2015, 09:14:55 PM
Prodezra Beats discusses this long wait in his song 'Until When II'..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVl2OD9RHlc

And also in 'Where are you?'...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vs1FMGsPCI

will the messiah be a hip hopper? what would Moses sound like on the mic if he was a rapper?
I've writtend some lyrics, I hope they won't offend you;

Hook:

Beat em to death and dump the body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

I dumped the body in the sand, and fled the land, I'm wanted for murder and running from
the pharoahs hand

Beat em to death and dump the body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

It wasn't my fault, it was an act of passion
a man was gettin whipped so I got a little mad and

Beat em to death and dump the body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

I'm hiding out in the desert with my homie Jethro
duckin the po-po and my old friend the pharaoh

Beat em to death and dump the f'in body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

If u want more Moses rappin lyrics let me know.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 13, 2015, 09:24:27 PM
I want more! I'm glad Moses beat him to death!
Voltaire?
Oh, by the way I think Jesus was married...
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 13, 2015, 10:07:19 PM
I want more! I'm glad Moses beat him to death!
Voltaire?
Oh, by the way I think Jesus was married...

I'm chillin with Zipporah
She's bringing me bread
It's been 8 years and I haven't gotten _ _ _ _
We're keeping it tznius, it's definitely love
We finally got married she's such a sweet dove

I wish I could stay
But I gotta go
some strange voice has called me
Go back to the Israelites and lead them out, Mo

If you want more Moses rappin lyrics let me know.

Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 13, 2015, 10:12:09 PM
More!
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 13, 2015, 10:36:27 PM
Shabatai; A loner, a poet, a singer, a bit of a seducer and leading luminary of false messianism; Shabatai was as the good lord made him and was warped by influences of a world he didn't create. He probably sincerely wanted to build the Temple but didn't have the means to do so. May he be exonerated and rest in peace.

Well let's exonerate every evil person because there must have been 1 good thing each evil person wanted to do in their life at some point in time, right?  Let's ignore all the damage they did.  And maybe even that 1 thing they wanted to do they didn't have the means to do so, but we give them credit for it anyway?  Jeez listen to yourself man.   Tzvi was a traitor who in the end converted to islam.   What trash.

You are desperate to exonerate an enemy of the Jewish people and a villain of history.  Sure you're not just a shabatean or Frankist spreading garbage here?
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 13, 2015, 10:43:40 PM
Consequent to these disclosures the congress of rabbis in Brody proclaimed a universal Cherem (excommunication) against all "impenitent heretics", and made it obligatory upon every pious Jew to seek them out and expose them. The Sabbateans informed Dembowski, the Catholic Bishop of Kamenetz-Podolsk, Poland, that they rejected the Talmud and recognized only the sacred book of Kabbalah, the Zohar, which did not contradict the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. They stated that they regarded the Messiah-Deliverer as one of the embodiments of the three divinities.

The bishop took Frank and his followers (the "Anti-Talmudists", or "Zoharistic Jews") under his protection and in 1757 arranged a religious disputation between them and the rabbis of the traditionalist community. The Anti-Talmudists presented their theses, which began the intense dispute. The bishop sided in favor of the Frankists and also ordered the burning of all copies of the Talmud in Poland. 10,000 volumes were destroyed, which was a tremendous loss for the Jewish libraries of that era.

After the death of the bishop, the Sabbateans were subjected to severe persecution by the rabbis, although they succeeded in obtaining an edict from Augustus III of Poland guaranteeing them safety."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Frank
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 14, 2015, 12:03:25 AM
More!

I don't want a go, these Israelites won't listen
The voice said you have no choice, it is your mission
I keep asking myself how I got in this situation
that now I'm required to lead a nation

oh yeah;
I saw a man getting whipped by a taskmaster
and it was breaking my heart
I just kind of smacked him
and his head fell apart

I dragged his dead body off
and covered it in sand
and now I'm a wanted man
throughout egyptian lands

I did, I killed him
and now I know
I must go back
confront my past
and have a showdown with pharoah

more?
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 14, 2015, 03:05:40 AM
Consequent to these disclosures the congress of rabbis in Brody proclaimed a universal Cherem (excommunication) against all "impenitent heretics", and made it obligatory upon every pious Jew to seek them out and expose them. The Sabbateans informed Dembowski, the Catholic Bishop of Kamenetz-Podolsk, Poland, that they rejected the Talmud and recognized only the sacred book of Kabbalah, the Zohar, which did not contradict the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. They stated that they regarded the Messiah-Deliverer as one of the embodiments of the three divinities.

The bishop took Frank and his followers (the "Anti-Talmudists", or "Zoharistic Jews") under his protection and in 1757 arranged a religious disputation between them and the rabbis of the traditionalist community. The Anti-Talmudists presented their theses, which began the intense dispute. The bishop sided in favor of the Frankists and also ordered the burning of all copies of the Talmud in Poland. 10,000 volumes were destroyed, which was a tremendous loss for the Jewish libraries of that era.

After the death of the bishop, the Sabbateans were subjected to severe persecution by the rabbis, although they succeeded in obtaining an edict from Augustus III of Poland guaranteeing them safety."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Frank

This is what I'm talking about. Evil traitors and @$$-clowns but very dangerous ones in those times
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Yehudayaakov on May 14, 2015, 11:42:23 AM
The Moshiah today would do everything to fight the erev rave, and his tyranny materialized by the supreme court legal fraternity organization and its various sections its paw in the Israeli society like police the spy agencies he  would replace idf with a Jewish army, certainly the first task he would do an army that sacrifice Jewish patriots as sheep is a fifth column within with the capability of expelling thousands Jews if they are ordered .
Just read there's a unit called ''unit for patriotic crime'' pinch yourself!
Fight injustice and restore equality in the land Of Jews as Chaim do, that's what the Moshiah would do today.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: angryChineseKahanist on May 14, 2015, 01:25:31 PM
less

abridged version please
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 14, 2015, 04:47:44 PM
I confronted the pharoah
he brought magicians with snakes
but muh dick was bigger than both
of those impostor fakes

Pharoah was impressed
but still wouldn't listen

so I brought plagues
of blood lice frogs and other things
until he was smitten

He finally said, ok you can go my old friend
you've showed some cajones
I said thanks we'll be leaving
but I got some business to take care of;
finding Joseph's bones.

We loaded up the horses
with tons of gold
and baked some matzah quick
but some of the Israelites didn't join the fold

A plague of darkness came
and killed the firstborns
along with some Jews who wouldn't seize the opportunity
and grab the bull by the horns

We rolled out at dawn
towards the desert and then...
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 14, 2015, 05:36:40 PM
Nice work Shai, very interesting. When I was younger I wrote volumes of poetry and songs but haven't really gotten into it for years (although I still have several notebooks of that old material).

Let me share with everyone my personal feelings on Moshiach based on my life experience.

When I was young I did have dreams of being Moshiach and saving the world (rectifying the wrongs of the world). As I grew up I realized that the world has so many problems it may be beyond my ability to personally rectify it. I forgot about those dreams in my young adulthood and concentrated on my own well-being.

When I made Teshuva in 2003 I began to think about the Messiah and formed a belief I think is from the Chabad or Chassidic stream of thought. The concept of 'Sparks of Moshiach' is a sound one (mainly from Kabbalistic thought).

I tend to think all Jews are potential Moshiachs and together we can achieve the goals that the Moshiach must attain. We must do our 'good deeds' and enforce justice in the world and we will bring peace. I do not rely so much on other men placing my trust in Hashem only. I do not question why Moshiach has not come yet but I know in my soul that he will be realized eventually.

All Jews have to work together if they want to see the final redemption. Not everyone will be redeemed rather only those who have made Teshuva before the end times. This is why it is best to not stress about it. I know that Moshiach will come according to Hashems schedule (not mine or yours) and I don't question that.

Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 14, 2015, 05:52:21 PM
http://www.bethisraelct.org/page.asp?pageID=%7BA76869E5-ECF8-4E03-982C-01A93DF89068%7D
Quote
A Spark of Moshiach

What does it mean that every Jew has a spark of the soul of Moshiach?

In order to answer this question, we must first understand what the Jewish soul is.  The Midrash writes:  “There are five names for the soul:  Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama, Chaya and Yechidah.”  These five names, as explained in the teachings of Chassidut, are not simply words.  Rather, each one reflects a different level and aspect of the soul.

The first four (Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama and Chaya) refer to the powers of action, emotion, intellect and will.  Each of these aspects of the soul can be used in either a positive or negative way. One can choose to perform good deeds or bad, indulge in positive or negative emotions, or use one’s intellect to accomplish constructive or destructive ends.  Our will can also be directed towards the positive or the negative.  Yechidah, on the other hand, is the essence of the soul, which cannot be corrupted by our surroundings.  The Yechidah is connected to the divine at all times, and always reflects its Creator.

Over the course of our daily lives, the Yechidah rarely finds expression.  Only when we are confronted with a challenge that threatens to sever our link with G-d, our Yechidah rises up and reveals itself.  The Yechidah cannot, and will not, allow itself to be separated from its divine source.

The teachings of Kabbalah explain that the entire Jewish People is comprised of a single, united soul.  Moshiach is called the “general Yechidah,” containing and reflecting the soul root of every Jew.  Each of our souls is a reflection or ray of this general Yechidah.

When a Jew reveals his penchant for self-sacrifice and overcomes his spiritual challenges, he is revealing the spark of Moshiach within his soul.  This gives each one of us the power to bring the Redemption.  When we arouse the Yechida within us, we release ourselves from the wiles of the evil inclination, which leads to the entire Jewish People being released from the shackles of exile. 

(Yeshaya 52:13. Bereishit Rabba, Chapter 14:9. Devarim Rabba, 2:37. Perush Ramaz on Zohar, Vol. 2, p. 43, Vol. 3, p. 260. Meor Einayim, Parshas Pinchas. Kuntres Inyana shel Toras Hachassidus.


Quote
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2312356/jewish/Chapter-12-Ahavas-Yisrael-and-Mashiach.htm
Mashiach

Every Jew possesses a spark of the soul of Mashiach,9 as is hinted in the verse:10 “A star shall shoot forth from Yaakov” which is a reference both to Mashiach11 and to every Jew.12 This spark is the level of yechidah13 of the soul of the Jew which is also the spark of the general yechidah, the soul of Mashiach.14 This level of the soul stands above all divisions and transcends all levels. By revealing the yechidah level of every Jew, one hastens the revelation of the general yechidah, i.e., the revelation of Mashiach. Ahavas Yisrael reveals the yechidah.

In this light it must be emphasized that the connection between ahavas Yisrael and the Geulah is not only that ahavas Yisrael removes the cause of the exile (the opposite of ahavas Yisrael), but rather, since we are now at the stage in which we have completed our avodah that needed to be done throughout the duration of the exile: we have already traveled the forty two journeys through the “desert of the nations”15 and we are already standing by the “River Jordan” — the level of Mashiach of “Morach Vadain,”16 on the brink of Redemption, then most definitely the cause of the exile has already17 been rectified and therefore the emphasis on ahavas Yisrael is as a taste and even the beginning of the true and complete Redemption which is connected with the unity of Jews as it stands above all division, as underlined in Jewish unity at the level of yechidah — the spark of Mashiach.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 14, 2015, 06:17:19 PM
pharoah changed his mind
once again

and sought to bring us back
into the slavery with his men

they gave chase in chariots
and it appeared all was lost

until nahum stepped into the sea
like a boss

the ocean parted
and made a a road

and we hurried right through
towards a safer abode

pharoah and his army followed
but the whole sea crashed down
a drowned the whole army
along with ole fella
wearin the crown

Israel escaped, and sang a song
and with a sigh of relief
passed round the bong

...
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: nessuno on May 14, 2015, 06:24:54 PM
I want more! I'm glad Moses beat him to death!
Voltaire?
Oh, by the way I think Jesus was married...
Did you see the marriage certificate?  :P
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 14, 2015, 06:35:46 PM
Did you see the marriage certificate?  :P
Well of course Miss Bullcat  :-*, I was there silly.  :dance: It was one heck of a good time! :celebrate:
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 14, 2015, 06:36:12 PM
a few weeks later
we camped at sinai

and I went to get the commandments
at a mountain top high


I talked with the voice
in an argumentative tone
and a lazer came down
and carved some commandments in stone

I thought all was good
and was cheerful and hearty
but when I arrived back at camp
I stumbled upon a big party

Israel was taking bong hits
and drinking and dancing around a golden calf
I wondered how this could happen
and tried to do the math

"We thought you were dead
and decided to celebrate
don't be mad bra
don't hate"

I got real mad, downright pissed
and dropped those stones
I was feelin dissed

How could you party, without me here?
what's this calf doing
where is the gold that was in your ears?

After a while I talked to Aaron and finally chilled out
but I had an inner rage
and planned a bloody route

Those little ungrateful bastards wanted to party without me?
Get thee together your swords
and don't let them flee

So we cut and we slaughtered
and we sliced and we hacked
and we killed off some of the trouble makers
because they got partied, got drunk and macked

I got that calf
and ground it up
and made the survivors drink it
out of a cup

I finally rested and felt my leadership secure
but little did I know, there would be much more...









Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 14, 2015, 06:55:01 PM
Did you see the marriage certificate?  :P

 Their was no gay marriage at the time.   :D
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 14, 2015, 07:20:20 PM
Their was no gay marriage at the time.   :D
You had to take it to a whole nother level, didn't you?
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 14, 2015, 07:21:15 PM
Shai, I want to know about your post that was removed.... Was that a joke? If not, please enlighten me...
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 14, 2015, 09:03:18 PM
Shai, I want to know about your post that was removed.... Was that a joke? If not, please enlighten me...

What, Hebrew Satanism? Basically, I think people of Hebrew descent need the freedom to be individuals and have an identity outside the strict code of mosaic law. Hebrew satanism does not deny the existence of God or the factual history of Israel and does still worship and pray to God but we give the devil his due as well and honor Satan (God's evil side). There have been enough spin-off hebrew movements trying to describe themselves as thus without fully saying it out loud. Satan is a part and parcel of Israelite history and we honor him. If God expects Israelites to live up to the Mosaic law after certain events than the truth is that the God of Israel has an evil or unreasonable side. I don't really know what else to say; I've seen too much of human nature to deny the power of satan. Satan is identified with evil and he may well be partly evil, but satan also represents individuality, non conformity etc...Hebrew Satanism allows Jews to be Christians and buddhists at the same time, not because we believe in or worship rock or stone but because this imagery has been allowed to bombard the senses so we accept it as part of the fabric of reality. Hebrew satanism attempts to be realistic about humans nature and God. We do acknowledge that the entire Nile to Euphrates belongs to ethnic Israelites such as myself but not based on whether they obey the mosaic code or not. We do not stress about lighting bonfires on sabbath, nor do we do things like get rid of breadcrumbs at passover. We are a lawless group by international political standards as well as rabbinic ones and far more extreme and far less modest than Kahanism. If you want to know our plan for Israel, you can PM me; I would be called inciting if I posted it publicly.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 14, 2015, 09:17:45 PM
You're f@(king kidding me right? You worship an agent(the one that go's against Gd's law) of G-d? That is a form of some of the Gnostics...
.... I think you are jerking us around here, with some anti beliefs right now?
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 14, 2015, 09:25:16 PM
We travelled through the desert
and things went ok
but then some group got power hungry
and went astray

Korach was his name
and his bankroll was fat
He had a group of killers
all with their gats

He was coming to get me
so I prayed and prayed
he was devoured and roasted
and I was saved.

Then there was Zimri
and those midianite hoes
The princess was beautiful
but she brought only woes

He challenged my authorita
and said I had married out too
I was kind of speechless and couldn't say boo
my pride was hurt and my eyes grew dim
until Pinchas took a spear and shanked him
(and I thanked him!)

The manna was falling
everyday without fail
until some complainers grumbled
and wanted some quail

You want some quail I thundered
You miserable beasts!
Isn't the manna enough
for all your fine feasts?

If it's quails you want then it's quails you'll get
Til it comes out your nose
Til you wretch

And some ate and some died
and were finally gone
and we packed up the camp
and quickly moved on

I killed a few more here
I killed a few more there
We had to decapitated them
For entering midianite lairs

We burned some cities
and had a good time
a punished idolaters
for their idolatrous crime

Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 14, 2015, 09:34:36 PM
I knew you were anti Torah and anti creator!
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 14, 2015, 09:42:20 PM
You're f@(king kidding me right? You worship an agent(the one that go's against Gd's law) of G-d? That is a form of some of the Gnostics...
.... I think you are jerking us around here, with some anti beliefs right now?
I don't really worship satan; I just don't believe God is that good anymore or that being religious in modern times is fun enough. If I was following Moses or Dawud it might be a different story;
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 12:42:20 AM
Shai77,

Grow the hell up brother. What you posted here is a big disappointment. I actually was under the belief you were a righteous Jew who just may be off the derech. You seem to be intelligent and able to express yourself through poetry and thus I expected you would be on the level. But to suggest that you worship an agent, and the agent of evil-doing in the world, is deeply troubling.

I would like to be a friend to you... But what I read when I came home from work today left me speechless. I can not believe that a Jew would post these kinds of heretical beliefs on JTF. If you have any intention of doing Teshuva I would hope you would begin studying the Torah with complete honesty and the desire to rectify the problems which you are seeing.

Life deals us all challenges. We all feel despair from time to time. But as we get older we realize that the wisdom of the sages can keep us from the deepest depths of despair. This thread was started to discuss false messiahs and you expressed your feeling that Moshiach is virtually impossible. This is an acceptable feeling but to ditch all that is good about Torah and Mitzvot is silly. Understanding the reason we are waiting for the Moshiach is a difficult task for a Jew but as time goes by (as I explained previously) I have come to understand the reason we are waiting still.

If you would like some pointers for studying Torah and/or Talmud I would like you to PM me... If you would like to have a Chavrusa (Torah study partner)....
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Yehudayaakov on May 15, 2015, 03:54:04 AM
We travelled through the desert
and things went ok
but then some group got power hungry
and went astray

Korach was his name
and his bankroll was fat
He had a group of killers
all with their gats

He was coming to get me
so I prayed and prayed
he was devoured and roasted
and I was saved.

Then there was Zimri
and those midianite hoes
The princess was beautiful
but she brought only woes

He challenged my authorita
and said I had married out too
I was kind of speechless and couldn't say boo
my pride was hurt and my eyes grew dim
until Pinchas took a spear and shanked him
(and I thanked him!)

The manna was falling
everyday without fail
until some complainers grumbled
and wanted some quail

You want some quail I thundered
You miserable beasts!
Isn't the manna enough
for all your fine feasts?

If it's quails you want then it's quails you'll get
Til it comes out your nose
Til you wretch

And some ate and some died
and were finally gone
and we packed up the camp
and quickly moved on

I killed a few more here
I killed a few more there
We had to decapitated them
For entering midianite lairs

We burned some cities
and had a good time
a punished idolaters
for their idolatrous crime

Cool ! Shai Your poetry rocks brother.
more
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 15, 2015, 06:36:24 AM
thanks. please excuse me if the chronology is a bit off...

Bezalel built an ark
from donated gold and acacia wood
and things were getting better
and better in the hood

We made some fine garments
they were histories best
My personal tailor Bezalel
was up to the test

We were leading the camp
and rocking fine threads
we even had some time here and there
for our women in beds

These were good days, with my family and I
But one day Aarons sons got faded,
burned some strange incense and died

I'm not sure what happened
there was some commotion and a boom
and next thing we knew, they were by fire consumed

I consoled my young homie
there wasn't much I could do
he handled it well
like a good soldier jew

I stuttered for words
there wasn't much I could say
the good lord giveth
and he taketh away

Aaron was down
but carried on like a champ
and once again we pulled up stakes
and moved on from the camp

We got some instructions
about goats and food laws and stuff
this Torah was great
I couldn't get enough

...

Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Yehudayaakov on May 15, 2015, 07:47:09 AM
^^ there are not many who can come  with this kind of stuff.


thanks. please excuse me if the chronology is a bit off...

Bezalel built an ark
from donated gold and acacia wood
and things were getting better
and better in the hood
   
...

we even had some time here and there
for our women in beds

These were good days, with my family and I
But one day Aarons sons got faded,
burned some strange incense and died

I'm not sure what happened
there was some commotion and a boom
and next thing we knew, they were by fire consumed

I consoled my young homie
there wasn't much I could do
he handled it well
like a good soldier jew

I stuttered for words
there wasn't much I could say
the good lord giveth
and he taketh away

Aaron was down
but carried on like a champ
and once again we pulled up stakes
and moved on from the camp

We got some instructions
about goats and food laws and stuff
this Torah was great
I couldn't get enough
...


this Torah was great  :)
I couldn't get enough  :dance:

Great stuff mate.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 15, 2015, 08:10:52 AM
What, Hebrew Satanism? Basically, I think people of Hebrew descent need the freedom to be individuals and have an identity outside the strict code of mosaic law. Hebrew satanism does not deny the existence of God or the factual history of Israel and does still worship and pray to God but we give the devil his due as well and honor Satan (God's evil side). There have been enough spin-off hebrew movements trying to describe themselves as thus without fully saying it out loud. Satan is a part and parcel of Israelite history and we honor him. If God expects Israelites to live up to the Mosaic law after certain events than the truth is that the God of Israel has an evil or unreasonable side. I don't really know what else to say; I've seen too much of human nature to deny the power of satan. Satan is identified with evil and he may well be partly evil, but satan also represents individuality, non conformity etc...Hebrew Satanism allows Jews to be Christians and buddhists at the same time, not because we believe in or worship rock or stone but because this imagery has been allowed to bombard the senses so we accept it as part of the fabric of reality. Hebrew satanism attempts to be realistic about humans nature and God. We do acknowledge that the entire Nile to Euphrates belongs to ethnic Israelites such as myself but not based on whether they obey the mosaic code or not. We do not stress about lighting bonfires on sabbath, nor do we do things like get rid of breadcrumbs at passover. We are a lawless group by international political standards as well as rabbinic ones and far more extreme and far less modest than Kahanism. If you want to know our plan for Israel, you can PM me; I would be called inciting if I posted it publicly.


This is some retarded nonsense.    Just like the frankists, trying to justify your evil behavior with twisted "philosophies" that don't make any sense.

I knew you had to be harboring some twisted delusions if you were defending shabtai tzvi.  Next you'll defend Hitler.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Yehudayaakov on May 15, 2015, 09:42:40 AM

This is some retarded nonsense.    Just like the frankists, trying to justify your evil behavior with twisted "philosophies" that don't make any sense.

I knew you had to be harboring some twisted delusions if you were defending shabtai tzvi.  Next you'll defend Hitler.

KWRBT have you read what he wrotes ? He says he would follow Moses, great Bar Kochba if he was here today! Sometimes you post comment you don't know why you write them!
Beside his poetry is great  8)
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 15, 2015, 10:36:37 AM
KWRBT have you read what he wrotes ? He says he would follow Moses, great Bar Kochba if he was here today! Sometimes you post comment you don't know why you write them!
Beside his poetry is great  8)

Lol to follow Moshe is to follow Judaism, plain and simple.   Creating his own religion to worship some imaginary devil character is definitely NOT following Moshe who left instructions for his followers for all the generations, not just the ones in which he was alive.    Moshe killed the people who worshipped the golden calf.  Use your imagination about what Moshe would do with shai and anyone else who worships the evil of shabtai tazi and Frank.

Him saying he would follow Moshe is for selfish reasons and is meaningless given what he chooses to follow in real life.  You admire his poetry?  Should we admire the artwork of a traitor like gideon levy?  Maybe gideon levy is really skilled in paint by number.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 11:46:14 AM
Lol to follow Moshe is to follow Judaism, plain and simple.   Creating his own religion to worship some imaginary devil character is definitely NOT following Moshe who left instructions for his followers for all the generations, not just the ones in which he was alive.    Moshe killed the people who worshipped the golden calf.  Use your imagination about what Moshe would do with shai and anyone else who worships the evil of shabtai tazi and Frank.

Him saying he would follow Moshe is for selfish reasons and is meaningless given what he chooses to follow in real life.  You admire his poetry?  Should we admire the artwork of a traitor like gideon levy?  Maybe gideon levy is really skilled in paint by number.

Sometimes you seem very judgmental to me. This is a real Jew you are talking about. You should consider trying to follow the Torah some day. Our Holy Torah places a great deal of import on how a Jew treats his fellow, and sometimes you seem to be lacking in Ahavat Yisroel. I have rebuked you about this in the past and you have continued your way (which is fine by me because I accept you as a Jew who is only acting in the best way he knows). I seek to bring Jews back to Torah which is why I reach out to Jews and befriend them no matter where on the ladder of Jewish observance he or she is. This is because of the kindness which was bestowed on me from my Jewish community when I was far from Torah.

Indeed what he has said is wrong according to our beliefs. But what he said is a result of his environment and upbringing. We all must judge others in the context of their life experience.

I will bring Pirkie Avot... Chapter 2 Mishnah 4:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2011/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm

4. He would also say: Make that His will should be your will, so that He should make your will to be as His will. Nullify your will before His will, so that He should nullify the will of others before your will.

Hillel would say: Do not separate yourself from the community. Do not believe in yourself until the day you die. Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place. Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will ultimately be understood [or: Do not say something that ought not to be heard even in the strictest confidence, for ultimately it will be heard]. And do not say "When I free myself of my concerns, I will study,'' for perhaps you will never free yourself.


PS: I think he clarified he was being sarcastic when he suggested he worships Soton.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 12:01:07 PM
Let me clarify once again.... I do not agree with Shai77 on a lot of his outlook and theology. We have had discussions together arguing our views and while I don't explicitly seek to alter his view, I hope to have influence on them (as I have had with others).

Some of us have had very hard lives. We were not really taught the underpinnings of moral Talmudic Judaism. I count myself among them as I grew up in a mostly non-religious home and only given a Bar Mitzvah because the previous generation demanded it (Baruch Hashem!). I would probably not be here at JTF and spreading the Kahanist message if not for the events of 9/11. But I know now that I have a purpose and have witnessed the power of my personal avodah (service of Hashem) on others.

Torah tells us to personally rebuke those who are on the wrong path. If we do this we are not liable for their sins (the meaning of this is debatable)... We are to judge our co-Jew favorably even when there is evidence that they may not be totally innocent. We are to speak of people in a good light and not spread derogatory information even when it is true. We are to take care of those less fortunate than ourselves and unload the donkey of our 'enemy'.

In my view of Torah the basics, as Hillel said, are 'Love your neighbor as yourself' and 'Do not do to your neighbor what you don't want done to you'. Obviously I hold Shabbat in a very dear place and seek to keep Shabbat perfectly. But I understand how Jews could rebel against it... Do I defend it? Not really... But I am not so angry and vengeful that I will be the 1st to condemn them.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 12:05:31 PM
http://www.torah.org/features/secondlook/JudgingFavorably.html
Quote
[There is a mitzvah in the Torah called "Judging others favorably." This means if we see someone in a wrongdoing, we must first to stop, think, and consider if perhaps we are missing one crucial factor, that changes the story from the way it appears.]

Take pleasure in making people look good: A virtuous man was walking with his students and they chanced upon the dead carcass of an animal. The students said, "What a foul odor is coming from this carcass!" the virtuous man said, "How white are its teeth!" (Chovos HaLevavos, Shaar Hacniya, chap 6)

Which was true? Which was more obvious?

Both observations were true. Even though the white teeth were much less obvious and easy to overlook in the face of the offensive, overpowering odor of a dead carcass, the virtuous man found something nice to see and to say. He chose to concentrate on the positive. If this can be said concerning a dead animal, how much more so should we try to find the good in a human being.

http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/ch6law7b.html
Quote
"If one sees his fellow sin or following an improper path, he is obligated to return him to the better [path], and to inform him that he is sinning to himself with his evil ways. [This is] as it is stated, 'You shall surely rebuke your fellow' (Leviticus 19:17).

"When one rebukes his fellow, whether in matters between the two of them or in matters between him [the sinner] and G-d (lit., 'the Omnipresent'), he must rebuke him privately (lit., 'between him and himself'). He should speak to him gently, in a soothing (lit., 'soft') tone, telling him that he is only saying this to him for his benefit and to bring him to the life of the World to Come.

"If his fellow accepts his words, it is good. If not, he should rebuke him a second and third time. And so too, he is continuously obligated to rebuke his fellow until the sinner hits him and says to him 'I will not listen.'
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/peninim/archives/tazria67.htm
Quote
When a woman conceives and gives birth to a male (12:2). If a person have on the skin of his flesh a seis, or a sapachas. (13:2)
It seems peculiar that a parsha which deals primarily with the tumah, spiritual contaminations, of tzaraas, spiritual leprosy in its many forms, should be called Parashas Tazria, the Parasha of giving birth. While, in fact, the parsha does begin with the laws concerning a yoledes, woman who just gave birth, it proceeds to focus on tumas tzaraas. Why? The Torah is giving us a subtle message: Bearing a child, procreating, is the act of bringing life into this world. Speaking lashon hora, evil/disparaging speech/slander, takes a life. It is murder, perhaps more discriminating, but no less insidious. It is not violent, but it is, in many instances, just as destructive and fatal. The Torah commences with the positive act of bringing life into this world and the ensuing commitments one has to Hashem vis-?-vis the korbanos, sacrifices, and the period of tumah following the birth. Then the Torah demonstrates simply how derogatory speech and even a negative facial expression can destroy a life.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 12:16:32 PM
Now, as is my custom, I would like to demonstrate something through music and American culture...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy4z_9OnNo8


http://www.ohrtmimim.org/Torah_Default.asp?id=2386

Parshat Tazria-Metzora (5769)

This week we read two Torah portions together. The first, 'Tazria' means 'Giving seed' and the second 'Metzora' is translated 'Leprosy' (actually a Leprosy-like Torah disease called Tzoraat caused by speaking with intent to harm).

These seem to be two opposites. Giving seed is good and Tzoraat is bad. But in a deeper sense they are not.

Leprosy is another name for Moshiach (Messiah) [Talmud Sanhedrin 98b] which is the goal of all our efforts. And giving seed (being positive and productive) is how we bring him.

But at first glance this is not understood. The Messiah, according to Judaism, will bring world peace, health and prosperity, why is he called Tzoraat-Leprosy?

To understand this here is a story. (HaGeula weekly page #460)
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 12:26:25 PM
http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/82598/jewish/In-the-Garden-of-the-Torah-Metzora.htm

Mashiachs Name

Adapted from
Likkutei Sichos, Vol. VII, p. 100ff;
Vol. XXII, p. 77ff; Parshas Tazria, 5751;
Sefer HaSichos 5751, p. 491ff

Consummate Perfection and Superficial Flaws

Our Sages ask:1 “What is Mashiach’s name?” and reply “The leper of the House of Rebbi.”2 This is very difficult to understand. Mashiach will initiate the Redemption, and is associated with the pinnacle of life and vitality. How can his name be linked with leprosy (tzaraas), which is identified with death3 and exile?4

This difficulty can be resolved based on the statements of Likkutei Torah, which explain that a person affected by tzaraas will be:

A man of great stature, of consummate perfection….5 Although such a person’s conduct is desirable, and he has corrected everything,… it is still possible that on the flesh of his skin there will be lower levels on which evil has not been refined. This will result in physical signs on his flesh, in a way which transcends the natural order….6

Since the filth on the periphery of his garments has not been refined, therefore [blemishes] appear on his skin…. Moreover, these blemishes reflect very high levels, as indicated by the fact that they are not considered impure until they have been designated as such by a priest.

The passage implies that there are sublime spiritual influences which, because of the lack of appropriate vessels (as evidenced by the “filth on the periphery”), can produce negative effects. For when powerful energy is released without being harnessed, it can cause injury. This is the reason for the tzaraas with which Mashiach is afflicted.

Mashiach’s Burden

The Jewish people as a whole are compared to a human body. This applies within every generation, and also to the entire nation throughout history.7 All Jews those of the past, present, and future are part of a single organic whole.

Since good is eternal, while evil is only temporary,8 our people’s spiritual level has been constantly advancing. A vast reservoir of good has been filling up over the centuries. The Jewish people as they exist in ikvesa diMeshicha, the age when Mashiach’s approaching footsteps can be heard, have attained the level of perfection mentioned in Likkutei Torah.

Nevertheless, there are still blotches of evil “on the periphery,” for the world is still scarred by injustice and strife. And thus the light of redemption cannot yet become manifest; this is reflected in the leprous blemishes which are visited on Mashiach himself. For as the prophet states:9 “He has borne our sicknesses and endured our pain… with blemishes, smitten of G-d, and afflicted.” Mashiach endures suffering, not for his own sake, but for the Jewish people as a whole.

Positive Import

There is still a difficulty. Although the above passage explains why Mashiach must endure suffering, it does not show why that suffering is identified with Mashiach. Mashiach’s name who he is should be positive.

This difficulty can also be resolved on the basis of the passage from Likkutei Torah cited previously. For that passage explains that leprous blemishes reflect “very high levels,” their source being transcendent spiritual light10 that are associated with Mashiach. Nevertheless, for this light to be expressed in a positive manner, suitable vessels are required.

Mashiach’s suffering will bring about a final refinement in the world at large, making it a fit vessel for the revelation of its transcendent potential. Since this revelation lies at the heart of the Era of the Redemption, the catalyst necessary to bring it about is therefore associated with Mashiach’s name.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 15, 2015, 12:53:13 PM
The 1750s saw the rise of a fringe sect of Judaism led by the infamous Jacob Frank. The Frankist, as they were commonly called, were the spiritual descendents of Shabtai Tzvi, and like his predecessor, Frank claimed to be the Messiah and sought to create a religion that would incorporate both Judaism and Christianity. Both chassidic and Talmudist rabbis fought hard to put an end to the spreading influence of the heretical Frankists. In 5519 (1759), the Besht was chosen to be one of three delegates representing the rabbis in a highly publicized debate with the Frankists in Lemberg. Soon after the debate, thousands of Frankists underwent baptism to demonstrate their loyalty to Christianity. While many prominent Jewish figures felt relieved by the baptisms, because this clearly demonstrated the Frankists' cut with traditional Judaism, the Baal Shem Tov was deeply saddened by the move. "As long as a diseased limb is connected to the body, there is hope that it may be saved; but once amputated, it is gone, and there is no hope," the Besht lamented. It is said that the distress caused to the Baal Shem Tov by his ordeal with the Frankists ultimately led to his death.
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1208507/jewish/Biography.htm
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 15, 2015, 01:27:45 PM

This is some retarded nonsense.    Just like the frankists, trying to justify your evil behavior with twisted "philosophies" that don't make any sense.

I knew you had to be harboring some twisted delusions if you were defending shabtai tzvi.  Next you'll defend Hitler.

Actually, yes. I listened to a 13 hour audio about the life of Hitler to really try to learn about this character who defined the 20'th century and in many ways my life and he actually had a few good characteristics. Who is wise? He who learns from everybody.

I wouldn't want to be one of his victims and I probably wouldn't fit in with his crowd but the he did have some taste in music and some ideas about art and culture. Mass murder aside, some of his criticisms about the music and art of the day are in fact quite funny.

I think he felt strongly about what his national culture should be and did something about it and he had experienced war so he wasn't too afraid of blood and guts. He was a cultural warrior brutally serious. If I could I might like to do some similar things to what hitler did; only the part about taking over a country and dictating or at least having a strong say about the direction of art and culture; basically just get some friends together who can shoot straight and who like your ideas on art and start intimidating the competition...It seems like a realistic viewpoint on politics and getting things done.

I am of the opinion that if he ever heard a Temple orchestra, he never would have touched the Jews. Hitler was a music fanatic, a jilted artist and that in my opinion is the major tragedy of the exile; the soul of music.

In addition, Hitler hated Christianity and sought to eradicate it; he saw through the falsehood and suicidal advice contained in the 'NT'. To accomplish this feat he was willing to take drastic actions. In this way he was not the smiling 'compassionate' enemy trying to destroy the soul through deceit but rather a straight power type. I find this perhaps more respectable in some ways.

Some Jews who go to beach on sabbath may talk about how evil hitler was but they aren't coming to honest terms with the dictates of the Torah, their own religion which would condemn them to hell for floating in a raft on the sabbath.

In my opinion the Holy Temple is about music and it would require near dictatorial powers to restore it.

The nuremberg laws sounded extremely racist but let's face it; in Judaism not letting 'goyim' touch wine and all that stuff has racial overtones of it's own;

The wording in Talmudic Judaism can sound fanatically supremacist to outsiders; even if that is not the intent; I've tried to look at it objectively and as hard as it is I came to that conclusion. It's part of the reason I'm a hebrew satanist; If Israelites were in a diaspora and had to print materials like that to keep their traditions going it was likely going to cause a backlash at some point. So it was sort of a catch-22 God had put them in, a very difficult situation that mortals were likely to fail;  Hebrew Satanism posits that God exists, but maybe he's not always that good. I would like to be proven wrong but until that time I am a hebrew satanist.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 15, 2015, 01:34:04 PM
KWRBT have you read what he wrotes ? He says he would follow Moses, great Bar Kochba if he was here today! Sometimes you post comment you don't know why you write them!
Beside his poetry is great  8)
Thank you. Yes i would like to follow Moses in the physical world. It is quite different to follow directions of a character from 3,000 years ago than actually being there. The thing about Moses that is exceptional is that he got to use every bit of his energy in service to God. There are not many people like that so in that way he was extremely lucky;
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 15, 2015, 03:32:54 PM
We camped in the desert
which was vast and dry
some Israelites got thirsty
and started to cry

The voice told me to speak to a rock for water
I tried to be calm but my anger got hotter

You rebels you bastards
is it ever enough!
Wait a little, do it be tough

And with that I smashed the rock, hit it hard with my staff
The water did flow but I incurred God's wrath

From that day on, the day my rage got out of hand
I was told I would not be entering
the good promised land

I pleaded and begged
and prayed and cried
as a bird as a bug
as a dog as a fly

But no the Lord's decision was made
He said You've done enough mitzvahs already don't worry you'll be paid
I'd lived a good life and had my share of lovers and kills
and soon would be buried somewhere up in the hills

I'd had a good life and made a huge contribution to culture
and soon would be resting in a hidden sepulcher

But before I left I had to pass the torch
to my disciple Joshua who was always
hanging out on my army tent porch

I gave him instructions and he listened well
Look Josh, these Jews they're stubborn
leading them is like hell

they'll try your patience hard
and put you to the test
try to be cool and do your very best

And some days later
It was time to leave
I gave my final speech about the path of life
and tried not to grieve

I left kind of quick, I hate long goodbyes
And I wandered into the hills with tears in my eyes
I thought back on my life and the things I'd done
And all the good and evil of man under the sun

And alas if you want to know now how I honestly feel
I wonder if when God proposed to kill everyone and make a nation out of me and my family
If I should of said deal!


*****

And with thus concluded the life of Moses.
Beat em to death and dump the body.

If you would like to hear more rap poetry of Biblical figures do let me know.





Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 04:08:53 PM
Shai77,

Do you really believe that your satan has any power? Satan is nothing. It is completely foolish from a Jewish perspective to attribute any power to the evil. I really hope you are just saying this to be provocative because otherwise I cannot really trust you will act as a Jew should towards another. I deny that there is a seperate satan and believe fully the talmudic idea that the satan is really three entities, Satan is the angel of death, the yetzer hara, and the prosecutor on the day of judgement.

Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 04:26:01 PM
Hashem does only Good but the problem is that as mortals we don't have 'the big picture' and thus we don't see the good especially when suffering is involved. When we suffer, or when we are depressed, we feel an absence of Hashem from our world. It is this absence which creates the mystical darkness which kabbalah refers to. This darkness is often created by the klipah (container) which conceals our inner light.

Often bad things which happen to us are for a purpose. Sometimes we 'see the light' when we understand why we went through some particularly difficult test. When we don't see this light we experience the darkness, sometimes called the 'hidden face' because it happens when he hides his face (countenance) from us.

Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 04:28:18 PM
The following was posted in a discussion of 'why bad things happen to good people'...

http://www.torah.org/learning/issues/badgood.html

From Volume 1 Digest 10
From: Micha Berger <[email protected]>
Unfortunately, the A-lmighty gave me time to consider this question. Much of the week that my wife and I sat shiva for our daughter. "Why me?" crossed my mind alot. I mean, I may not be "good people", but surely I'm doing better than many people who haven't lived through such tragedy. Aren't I?

I reached a few conclusions:

1- The pasuk in Yeshayah that is euphamized into the text of the first brachah before the morning Shema reads:

Yotzeir or uvorei choshech
Who formed (yotzeir, from tzurah - image) light and created ex nihilo (see Rashi on Breishis 1:1, bara means yeish ma'ayin, creating something from nothing) darkness

Oseh shalom uvorei es hara (brachah reads: hakol)

Who does peace and created ex nihilo evil (brachah reads: the all, i.e. the universe).

But more to the point of our question, we see that the two dichotomies are compared; light is to darkness as peace is to evil. Both light and peace are briyos, creations ex nihilo, darkness and peace are derivatives.

A totally empty room is dark. Light is a substance, darkness is its absence. The implication of the pasuk is that peace too is the "substance", evil is merely the absence of peace, not an item iteself.

(BTW, this was my understanding of tzimtzum. In order to allow evil to exist the A-lmighty provides the appropriate absence of good.)

During shiva, this point was brought home to me on a very emotional level. The gift was that I had 3 healthy children (now 7, k"y). That is the miracle.

Left to itself the universe decays in obedience to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The fact that we can live is the exception, the Divine intervention. Just because we take usually take this intervention for granted makes this point no less true.

2- R. Nachum Ish Gamzu used to say "gam zu litovah" (this too is for the best) when faced with calamity. His student, R. Akiva, would similarly say, "Kol da'avad rachmanah litav avad" (all that the All Merciful does, He does for the best). They believed that bad things don't happen to anyone -- bad or good people. Our problem may be in that we have a misunderstanding of what a "bad thing" is.

Back to the pasuk in Yeshayah... R. SR Hirsch considers the root of ra, evil, to be reish-ayin-ayin, to shatter. The root of shalom, peace, is shin-lamed-mem, whole. Perhaps this tells us something about the definition of "good". Being good, imitating the creator, is to be constructive; evil is -- by definition -- to be destructive.

It's interesting that light vs. dark is paralled to peace/wholeness/harmony vs. evil, and not good vs. evil. This may be due to a problem with how to define the word "tov", good. For humans, Judaism defines good behavior as imitatio D-ei, acting as G-d does. With reference to Hashem, however, that definition is tautological. Of course G-d is good, if "good" means to act like G-d.

Our problem is only because we have a definition of evil that is based on humanism. The American ethic is that good is anything "that makes you happy and doesn't hurt anyone". This is the ethic of an era of instant gratification. It doesn't pursue building something for the future, to reach ultimate hights, it goes for happiness in the here-and-now. The distinction is obvious when we look at the difference between the Torah and humanistic ethics on what goes on between "two consenting adults". (This distinction is built into the systems' respective axioms: Torah, Divine in origin, takes the long view; humanism, because of the limitations of humans, can't.)

Evil never happens because everything is toward building, toward shaping oourselves to be receptacles for his goodness in the next world. This is why the gemara calls this world the "foyer of the palace." Our goal here is to get ready for the next world -- even if this means that we choose to avoid happiness, or even happiness is forcibly taken from us in the short run.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 04:36:40 PM
Do you really think that the satan would be granted the ability to destroy Hashems creation? That is ridiculous when you realize that life is a gift of kindness from Hashem. Even with our suffering it is better to live and struggle than to never exist at all. This is why it is essential (to understand my theology) to have faith in Hashems loving providence. There was no good reason for him to create the universe aside from his desire to have a people to show his kindness.

Regarding your concern about whether the nations feel that the talmud is racist is immaterial. Everything Jewish has been twisted to be used against us. The Talmud was edited to remove references which would offend our hosts in the exile. I do not worry about this because we know that their books contain a lot of antisemitic material besides. The concept of the nations hating us started from the day Abraham stood up for Hashem against Nimrod in Ur Chasdim. In every generation they will rise to kill us, and this has been shown to be true (not because it says it, but because the nations choose to hate us). Meanwhile our prophets say the day will come when the Jewish people are a light to the nations and the world will live in peace. Judaism does not teach superiority to the nations, rather the idea that our actions have a direct influence on the world around us and through the commandments we can elicit change in the natural world.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 15, 2015, 04:47:53 PM
Shai77,

Do you really believe that your satan has any power? Satan is nothing. It is completely foolish from a Jewish perspective to attribute any power to the evil. I really hope you are just saying this to be provocative because otherwise I cannot really trust you will act as a Jew should towards another. I deny that there is a seperate satan and believe fully the talmudic idea that the satan is really three entities, Satan is the angel of death, the yetzer hara, and the prosecutor on the day of judgement.
I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 15, 2015, 04:55:49 PM
I'm the hip hop messiah.
I have arrived to drink 40's, smoke blunts and judge the nations in my anger
my throne will be on the temple mount where I will sit with a beat box and bump old school hip hop
and all the world can come to pay me homage
with gifts of ivory, gold and virgins.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 15, 2015, 05:07:18 PM
^ Just spit my OE all over the place!  :::D
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 15, 2015, 06:39:17 PM
Sometimes you seem very judgmental to me. This is a real Jew you are talking about. You should consider trying to follow the Torah some day. Our Holy Torah places a great deal of import on how a Jew treats his fellow, and sometimes you seem to be lacking in Ahavat Yisroel. I have rebuked you about this in the past and you have continued your way (which is fine by me because I accept you as a Jew who is only acting in the best way he knows). I seek to bring Jews back to Torah which is why I reach out to Jews and befriend them no matter where on the ladder of Jewish observance he or she is. This is because of the kindness which was bestowed on me from my Jewish community when I was far from Torah.

Indeed what he has said is wrong according to our beliefs. But what he said is a result of his environment and upbringing. We all must judge others in the context of their life experience.

I will bring Pirkie Avot... Chapter 2 Mishnah 4:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2011/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm

4. He would also say: Make that His will should be your will, so that He should make your will to be as His will. Nullify your will before His will, so that He should nullify the will of others before your will.

Hillel would say: Do not separate yourself from the community. Do not believe in yourself until the day you die. Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place. Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will ultimately be understood [or: Do not say something that ought not to be heard even in the strictest confidence, for ultimately it will be heard]. And do not say "When I free myself of my concerns, I will study,'' for perhaps you will never free yourself.


PS: I think he clarified he was being sarcastic when he suggested he worships Soton.


Lololol.  He said he worships satan.  That is not a fellow no matter how you parse it.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 15, 2015, 06:43:51 PM
PS: I think he clarified he was being sarcastic when he suggested he worships Soton.

You clearly did not read the rest of the thread before you attacked me.   Why would you react to my response without even bothering to read to find out what I'm responding to?  Makes no sense.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 15, 2015, 06:52:53 PM
Actually, yes. I listened to a 13 hour audio about the life of Hitler to really try to learn about this character who defined the 20'th century and in many ways my life and he actually had a few good characteristics. Who is wise? He who learns from everybody.

I wouldn't want to be one of his victims and I probably wouldn't fit in with his crowd but the he did have some taste in music and some ideas about art and culture. Mass murder aside, some of his criticisms about the music and art of the day are in fact quite funny.

I think he felt strongly about what his national culture should be and did something about it and he had experienced war so he wasn't too afraid of blood and guts. He was a cultural warrior brutally serious. If I could I might like to do some similar things to what hitler did; only the part about taking over a country and dictating or at least having a strong say about the direction of art and culture; basically just get some friends together who can shoot straight and who like your ideas on art and start intimidating the competition...It seems like a realistic viewpoint on politics and getting things done.

I am of the opinion that if he ever heard a Temple orchestra, he never would have touched the Jews. Hitler was a music fanatic, a jilted artist and that in my opinion is the major tragedy of the exile; the soul of music.

In addition, Hitler hated Christianity and sought to eradicate it; he saw through the falsehood and suicidal advice contained in the 'NT'. To accomplish this feat he was willing to take drastic actions. In this way he was not the smiling 'compassionate' enemy trying to destroy the soul through deceit but rather a straight power type. I find this perhaps more respectable in some ways.

Some Jews who go to beach on sabbath may talk about how evil hitler was but they aren't coming to honest terms with the dictates of the Torah, their own religion which would condemn them to hell for floating in a raft on the sabbath.

In my opinion the Holy Temple is about music and it would require near dictatorial powers to restore it.

The nuremberg laws sounded extremely racist but let's face it; in Judaism not letting 'goyim' touch wine and all that stuff has racial overtones of it's own;

The wording in Talmudic Judaism can sound fanatically supremacist to outsiders; even if that is not the intent; I've tried to look at it objectively and as hard as it is I came to that conclusion. It's part of the reason I'm a hebrew satanist; If Israelites were in a diaspora and had to print materials like that to keep their traditions going it was likely going to cause a backlash at some point. So it was sort of a catch-22 God had put them in, a very difficult situation that mortals were likely to fail;  Hebrew Satanism posits that God exists, but maybe he's not always that good. I would like to be proven wrong but until that time I am a hebrew satanist.

Your love for hitler isn't quite as strong as your admiration for jacob frank and shabtai tzvi.  Careful, the white nationalists might revoke your membership.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 15, 2015, 07:50:47 PM
KWRBT,

I have spoken and discussed issues with Shai and I still hold out hope for his return. I understand a bit more the reason he is the way he is. I do not agree with his statements. But I seek to try to examine the issue so he may alter his position... As it says in Pirkie Avot, "Know how to answer a heretic".

Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 15, 2015, 08:05:28 PM
tzvi was a potential messiah in his early days, he just didn't state his position clearly or honestly enough about what he was after. Personally I think when he visited the sultan he might have offered to take one of his daughters or relatives
and in return pay him some of the proceeds from the temple revenues. He didn't really offer the sultan anything.
Personally I have met a pleasant young arab girl I would probably marry should the opportunity arise as an addition to my burgeoning harem.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 15, 2015, 10:01:02 PM
Several authorities on Sabbateanism, including Heinrich Graetz and Aleksander Kraushar, were skeptical of the existence of such a thing as a distinctive "Frankist" doctrine. According to Gershom Scholem, another authority on Sabbateanism, Kraushar had described Frank's sayings as "grotesque, comical and incomprehensible". In his classic essay "Redemption Through Sin", Scholem argued a different position, seeing Frankism as a later and more radical outgrowth of Sabbateanism.[9] In contrast, Jay Michaelson argues that Frankism was "an original theology that was innovative, if sinister" and was in many respects a departure from the earlier formulations of Sabbateanism. In traditional Sabbatean doctrine, Zevi and often his followers claimed to be able to liberate the sparks of holiness hidden within what seemed to be evil. According to Michaelson, Frank's theology asserted that the attempt to liberate the sparks of holiness was the problem, not the solution. Rather, Frank claimed that the mixing between holy and unholy was virtuous.[6] Netanel Lederberg claims that Frank had a Gnostic philosophy wherein there was a "true God" whose existence was hidden by a "false God". This "true God" could allegedly only be revealed through a total destruction of the social and religious structures created by the "false God", thus leading to a thorough antinomianism. For Frank, the very distinction between good and evil is a product of a world governed by the "false God". Lederberg compares Frank's position to that of Friedrich Nietzsche.[11]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankism
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 15, 2015, 10:02:45 PM
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankism


The more radical branches even engaged in orgies.[10] In Frankism, orgies featured prominently in ritual.[2]
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 15, 2015, 11:04:38 PM
http://www.learnkabbalah.com/jacob_frank/
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 15, 2015, 11:10:39 PM
I'm only posting these to let people know about frankist sabbatean beliefs.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 16, 2015, 02:17:55 AM
Jacob Frank was very good from what I read.
He could have been a messiah had the time been right.
Fortunately I am here and I will continue in the legacy;
The act of fornicating with many women in broad day light or at night on the Temple mt.
Or in caves underneath the old city
Will hasten the redemption
We know the truth; The Lord of Israel is Part Evil and must be honored as such.
To drink a 40, smoke a blunt, dance and have sex on the Temple mt with numerous beautiful women is to become Adam HaRishon, the perfect man.
I am the one for the mission, to redeem the earth. Don't be fooled by imitators, I am the original hip hop messiah.


The Hip Hop Messiah
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Zelhar on May 16, 2015, 05:10:33 AM
shai77, a rational rational person judges a person by their actions and choices above their taste in art and music.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 10:52:27 AM
Numbers 25:7

And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand.


Numbers 25:8

And he went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 10:54:15 AM
Psalms 106:
28 They joined themselves also to Baal of Peor,
And ate sacrifices made to the dead.
29 Thus they provoked Him to anger with their deeds,
And the plague broke out among them.
30 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened,
And the plague was stopped.
31 And that was accounted to him for righteousness
To all generations forevermore.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 11:05:47 AM
ish Publication Society tr. [1917], at sacred-texts.com

NUMBERS CHAPTER 25

1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to cormmit harlotry with the daughters of Moab. 2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods; and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. 3 And Israel joined himself unto the Baal of Peor; and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. 4 And the LORD said unto Moses: `Take all the chiefs of

p. 195

the people, and hang them up unto the LORD in face of the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel.' 5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel: `Slay ye every one his men that have joined themselves unto the Baal of Peor.' 6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, while they were weeping at the door of the tent of meeting. 7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand. 8 And he went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. 9 And those that died by the plague were twenty and four thousand.

 

‏פינחס‎

10 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: 11 `Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned My wrath away from the children of Israel, in that he was very jealous for My sake among them, so that I consumed not the children of Israel in My jealousy. 12 Wherefore say: Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace; 13 and it shall be unto him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was jealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.' 14 Now the name of the man of Israel that was slain, who was slain with the Midianitish woman, was Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a fathers' house among the Simeonites. 15 And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain was Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he was head of the people of a fathers' house in Midian.

16 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: 17 `Harass the Midianites, and smite them; 18 for they harass you, by their wiles wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of the prince of Midian, their sister, who was slain on the day of the plague in the matter of Peor.'

19 And it came to pass after the plague,
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 16, 2015, 11:21:30 AM
oh really?

It was friday evening around 8:30
I hopped in my car and drove to the pizza stand
and had a slice of pepperoni pizza
I was dressed nicely and headed towards a party
I put the led zeppelin mix tap in
and enjoyed the ride.
There was $20 worth of very good weed under my seat
I could smell it from 3 ft away.

So if you were judging a hebrew telling this story, which of these actions would effect
your judgement of them and how?
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 16, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
Miracles of Satan: How Satan Birthed Wisdom & Built The Holy Temple

It was sometime around 900 BCE
Satan decided he wanted his Temple to be built in Jerusalem;
There was a fellow named David who was strong and popular
in the Israelite clan.
He had the valor to do great deeds but
he lacked the wisdom and requisite desire to build the Temple in Jerusalem.
Therefore satan arranged a situation were he would see Bathsheba and through sin take her.
Their firstborn was taken by God to show he was upset over their sin
but their second child became the wisest and wealthiest man that ever lived
because secretly, God(Satan) didn't mind at all, was even happy with what David had done.
Without the hero, Satan, the monarchy would not have been formed.

Solomon made great marriage alliances
and managed a building project over $150 billion
Satan helped him and guided him every step of the way
so that Satan's temple project would be a success.
Solomon was only able to accomplish this task because he was
partly of Satan, of Sin. No other mortal could accomplish the task.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 05:15:51 PM
Well, they should be made to smoke weed till they can't handle it anymore, then make them smoke more. All while being beaten with pepperoni and being stoned with cheese blocks until they think they are dead.

It may just be me, but you remind of a character from a Henry Makow book...
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 16, 2015, 07:39:26 PM
We know the truth; Satan does have an attribute of greatness
I was the leader of the Temple orchestra in heaven until I fell to earth.
My musical spirit was corrupted during my sojourn among the gentiles
The only way true and Godly musical genius can be restored to Israel is via me, the hip hop messiah
I aim to conduct musical services on the Temple Mt
there will be my studio and all the great musicians of the earth will collaborate under my leadership;
Lions fear me and rulers of the earth cower in my presence;
The gold and virgins are mine.
All the children of the earth will visit and glorify father Shaitan
and my offspring shall rejoice.
I may obtain powers to heal and restore youth
allow time travel (fly backwards in time)
and to breath underwater.
You just have to believe, and join my cause.
The Hip Hop Messiah (me) leader of the hebrew satanist party is looking for supporters for knesset seats.
We are pro weed and pro temple and pro hip hop.
If you like weed, hip hop and want to see the temple built, then please consider supporting the hip hop messiah
with either financial contributions or prayers. I will also be considering your sisters, cousins and/or daughters for my harem; send pictures and proposals, what you want in return if my rise to power is a success.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 16, 2015, 08:59:47 PM
Welcome back old friend.
Thank you. I would like to go inside the place where the dome of the rock now stands and live alone for 40 days to obtain my full musical and healing powers so that I can bless my followers using supernatural powers. I would like establish my kingdom on earth and bring about the redemption of humanity and the resurrection of the dead if I can withstand the heat and pressure while I converse and negotiate with the supreme deity.

The Hebrew Satanist movement has a new vision for the middle east.

I need a serious group of supporters within Israel and around the world. The hip hop messiah does not condemn intermarriage and encourages the in-grafting of gentiles into the new republic of satan extending from the nile to the euphrates, inclusive of hebrews, arabs, whites and other ethnicities united under the rule of the hip hop messiah. The peace through hip hop initiative, chartered by me, the original hip hop messiah, hopes to make a positive impact. In addition to great music, we will also be conducting dance competitions and mma tournaments. If you like weed, hip hop, the holy temple, dance competitions and mma tournaments be sure to support the hip hop messiah and the hebrew satanist movement.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 09:11:42 PM
Thank you. I would like to go inside the place where the dome of the rock now stands and live alone for 40 days to obtain my full musical and healing powers so that I can bless my followers using supernatural powers. I would like establish my kingdom on earth and bring about the redemption of humanity and the resurrection of the dead if I can withstand the heat and pressure while I converse and negotiate with the supreme deity.

The Hebrew Satanist movement has a new vision for the middle east.

I need a serious group of supporters within Israel and around the world. The hip hop messiah does not condemn intermarriage and encourages the in-grafting of gentiles into the new republic of satan extending from the nile to the euphrates, inclusive of hebrews, arabs, whites and other ethnicities united under the rule of the hip hop messiah. The peace through hip hop initiative, chartered by me, the original hip hop messiah, hopes to make a positive impact. In addition to great music, we will also be conducting dance competitions and mma tournaments. If you like weed, hip hop, the holy temple, dance competitions and mma tournaments be sure to support the hip hop messiah and the hebrew satanist movement.
Where do I sign up?

Why would you act normal and have good conversations with us(looks like mostly while I was gone), and then start making fun of us? Because a couple people disagreed with you? Your raps were good, but even the first ones seem like they we're bashing HaShem as an evil G-d...
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 09:22:38 PM
You are not a satanic.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 16, 2015, 09:30:01 PM
The Hebrew Satanist Movement is forming a new outreach blog for other Hebrew Satanists or unaffiliated people of Hebrew ancestry and gentiles who support the Hebrew Satanist cause.  The Hip Hop messiah views all of his supporters as the most important characters in history but occasionally makes fun of people.

As far as bashing Hashem as an evil God; The Hip Hop Messiah doesn't claim to know the entire nature of God and aims to make personal contact with him on behalf of his followers;

The purpose of the hip hop messiah is to help individuals realize their greatness and talents in the realest ways possible.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 09:55:20 PM
The Hebrew Satanist Movement is forming a new outreach blog for other Hebrew Satanists or unaffiliated people of Hebrew ancestry and gentiles who support the Hebrew Satanist cause.  The Hip Hop messiah views all of his supporters as the most important characters in history but occasionally makes fun of people.

As far as bashing Hashem as an evil God; The Hip Hop Messiah doesn't claim to know the entire nature of God and aims to make personal contact with him on behalf of his followers;

The purpose of the hip hop messiah is to help individuals realize their greatness and talents in the realest ways possible.
You're lying! It's G-d on the com, not G d(minus the o)! Well, mocking us is fair, but saying we have not changed is a lie! You have not changed at all!
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 16, 2015, 10:18:30 PM
You're lying! It's G-d on the com, not G d(minus the o)! Well, mocking us is fair, but saying we have not changed is a lie! You have not changed at all!
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying we have not changed at all.
If it appears that the Hip Hop Messiah is mocking G-d perhaps he is only mocking some of the manifestations
of the G-d religion or questions some of the things that G-d does;
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on May 16, 2015, 10:25:27 PM
Jacob Frank was very good from what I read.
He could have been a messiah had the time been right.

According to you, all the evil people were good.  And your definition of a messiah is a cult leader.   The concept of messiah is from Judaism and that is not how Judaism defines a messiah.

Quote
The Hip Hop Messiah

I sincerely believe you have mental health problems and need serious professional help.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 11:25:14 PM
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying we have not changed at all.
If it appears that the Hip Hop Messiah is mocking G-d perhaps he is only mocking some of the manifestations
of the G-d religion or questions some of the things that G-d does;
You haven't changed, because you have been here before, mocking us! You're not a satanist either, if you're .... satan is a weak ass fag! You're basically saying you are the antichrist that Jews will follow and that some Christians believe will make the Temple Mount his thrown, and Jesus will destroy you! When in all actuality... When the Temple is rebuilt, G-d's presence(The Shekinah)
will reign, and we don't have to worry about a fake ass messiah leading us to sin!
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Ephraim Ben Noach on May 16, 2015, 11:53:09 PM
Oh yeah! Thank you for writing G-d.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 17, 2015, 12:05:01 AM
You haven't changed, because you have been here before, mocking us! You're not a satanist either, if you're .... satan is a weak ass fag! You're basically saying you are the antichrist that Jews will follow and that some Christians believe will make the Temple Mount his thrown, and Jesus will destroy you! When in all actuality... When the Temple is rebuilt, G-d's presence(The Shekinah)
will reign, and we don't have to worry about a fake ass messiah leading us to sin!

It is ok if you believe that about me, but you still are not confronting all the issues of the messianic vision of the 'pious' and what it will mean for a large part of Israel. I wasn't a weak ass fag; I was, am, is and will always be the hip hop messiah but the forces of Christianity and their false portrayal of messiah have done much to damage to the fabric of messianic expectation, trying to force the strength of messiah into the image of a weak ass fag, mainly, Jesus Christ.

As hip hop messiah, all of this will change; All of the Christian artwork in Israel will be destroyed along with the bahai gardens. I have understood some of the ability to kill people in combat but have realized the limits of individual combat in the messianic cause.

I would say I am neither a fake messiah nor the antichrist, I'm the hip hop messiah a regular non-religious hebrew mortal prepared to restore the Temple orchestra through strategic alliances with pro temple, pro weed, pro music forces who know that hip hop must be sublimated into the temple orchestra to achieve the final goal of the redemption.

It is said that all who worship an idol, eventually that idol comes to life and mocks them. Perhaps that is part true; The messiah has to have characteristics of Jesus incarnate to punish the Christian expectation. Hence you could partially call me the antichrist when in fact I am mostly a good person. I do have partial characteristics of Jesus Christ because I am the messiah and that is how many people have painted the messiah. But I am not Jesus Christ. Therefore, many would call me the antichrist when in fact I'm neither.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 17, 2015, 12:27:21 AM
Shai77,

I am honestly ashamed of what you have written here. I know you don't really care about what I think but I must clearly disassociate myself with your ideology. I truly through about you over Shabbat today and discussed this with my rabbi. But it is all for naught because at this point you have made chillul Hashem openly on JTF, a Kahanist web-site and one I have been associated with for many years.

I hoped that we could discuss things and resolve issues. But your ideology is far far from what I anticipated. Your will is to confront Hashem and his covenant with the people of Israel. This is not messianic, and it is not satanic, it is purely your own yetzer hara speaking to you and making you rebel against the Mosaic covenant.

Our discussion was useful because I think I understand where you are coming from. Where we are born and how the prevailing view of the society at the time can affect our outlook on faith and observance. But that does not excuse you because I know you have done some studying, and a little knowledge is dangerous in the wrong heart.

I am often recalling the Talmudic story of the character of Acher (the other) who was a great sage who ended up going insane and rejecting the Torah and Hashem. He claimed his Teshuva was not welcome and went around violating Shabbat openly and even in front of his teachers. I believe there is always hope for the soul of a Jew.

But I must ask you cease these rants because they shame me. This discussion is where you decide to make Chillul Hashem, maybe even worse than Shabatai Tzvi... I am shocked and dismayed, not because I am such a pious yid, but because I strive with all my heart and soul to bring about the rectification of Israels blemish and you open a big wound here at JTF. I have truly been upset about your statements and I don't really know how to move forward.

I rebuke you and your ideology. I hope you understand this is from a position of love and not anger.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 17, 2015, 01:50:34 AM
Shai77,

I am honestly ashamed of what you have written here. I know you don't really care about what I think but I must clearly disassociate myself with your ideology. I truly through about you over Shabbat today and discussed this with my rabbi. But it is all for naught because at this point you have made chillul Hashem openly on JTF, a Kahanist web-site and one I have been associated with for many years.

You're very wrong; I do care what you think, deeply and I hope you'll see the light and support me. I must get into the temple mount mosque and talk with the deity. That is the only thing I want to do;

I hoped that we could discuss things and resolve issues. But your ideology is far far from what I anticipated. Your will is to confront Hashem and his covenant with the people of Israel. This is not messianic, and it is not satanic, it is purely your own yetzer hara speaking to you and making you rebel against the Mosaic covenant.

>Yes that is partially true but mostly because I have honestly observed modern Hebrew culture and I see what a situation God (Satan) created for them, including myself and what the coming of the messiah will mean for them. Many of them will never change, therefore it is a waste of time to do anything else other than get God to confront them with covenant or alter it. Therefore, as Hip Hop Messiah, I must arbitrate, like Moses and Jesus combined into the ultimate prophetic superstar, The Hip Hop Messiah, step into the fray into the very center of the eye of the storm and sit for 40 days or get consumed by fire.

Our discussion was useful because I think I understand where you are coming from. Where we are born and how the prevailing view of the society at the time can affect our outlook on faith and observance. But that does not excuse you because I know you have done some studying, and a little knowledge is dangerous in the wrong heart.

I think it does excuse me and it does entitle me to visit directly with the deity face to face and confront him.



I am often recalling the Talmudic story of the character of Acher (the other) who was a great sage who ended up going insane and rejecting the Torah and Hashem. He claimed his Teshuva was not welcome and went around violating Shabbat openly and even in front of his teachers. I believe there is always hope for the soul of a Jew.

But I must ask you cease these rants because they shame me.

Why do they shame you? Because you cannot really answer the hard philosophical questions?

Do you really want me to cease these rants?
I really enjoy philosophy and I can pose the honest theological questions that demand answers.
I don't want to shame anyone but researching and writing about this topic is one of my favorite hobbies.
Maybe I could write them on a blog or something and anyone who wants to discuss the ideas of the Hebrew Satanist cause can do it there.
If you found any of the posts humorous or thought provoking I can write much more;
I haven't even started writing poetry about the other Bibilical characters.

This discussion is where you decide to make Chillul Hashem, maybe even worse than Shabatai Tzvi... I am shocked and dismayed, not because I am such a pious yid, but because I strive with all my heart and soul to bring about the rectification of Israels blemish and you open a big wound here at JTF. I have truly been upset about your statements and I don't really know how to move forward.

ok. I am sorry if I upset you. You are a really cool guy I know that definitely and I don't want to upset you.

I rebuke you and your ideology. I hope you understand this is from a position of love and not anger.

Yes I do understand; you are doing your mitzvah to rebuke a wrongdoer.
But maybe there is something to my ideology;
The messiah must come and perhaps he will be the ultimate musical superstar.
Maybe I am him, the one that has been promised.
If I can get enough seats in the knesset or organize a paramilitary movement of weed smokers in the IDF, we can legalize weed, build the temple without too much violence and make music non stop forever.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: muman613 on May 17, 2015, 02:25:40 AM
Shai77,

It is my understanding that the redemption will not just come because of unity, but unity under the banner of keeping the commandments. Nowhere in Jewish belief do we find that rejecting the Torah law is the path toward redemption.

You cannot have the Temple and redemption without keeping the law. No amount of peace and love is going to bring about the paradigm shift in belief and trust in Hashem. Usually music leads people astray as it is powerful (as I said in the music thread)... Only holy music is capable of bringing us toward the will of Hashem.

I think music is a useful tool for bringing people close but it must be kosher in intention and lyrical content. One of the tasks of Moshiach is to bring the Torah to every Jew and be a judge and king when the kingdom is established. I don't think that he will be a liberal pot smoker like you think he will be. I do feel that pot also has potential to bring together people, but the Torah is not about drugs or using substance to alter the mind.

I take a Rambam approach to the Moshiach which spells out what he must do. Your definition of Moshiach seems to fall short.

I am not rebuking you because I don't want to debate with you. We can do that personally via PM. I just don't think that this topic is kosher for JTF and I feel that it offends many. I am not afraid to debate the issues myself...
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: shai77 on May 17, 2015, 02:49:39 AM
Ok. The topic was:
Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Maybe I was doing an experiment to see if I could get any followers to worship and follow me
as a messiah who preaches something other than keeping the commandments.
You asked a question and I posed my answer in a rhetorical manner.
If anyone likes the Hip Hop messiah theme and wants to hear more poetry please pm me.
I am one of the best poets and rhymers in world's history but I never could express myself
because I'm supposed to be such a good kosher boy.
I'm sorry, it's not me and I can't be one of these Hannukah rappers.
Title: Re: Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?
Post by: Yehudayaakov on May 17, 2015, 07:16:56 AM
 Shai

Your poetry brother is better that your rant about (..don't know i don't read it) :'( about