ZIONISM or JUDAHISM ?

[Merkava]

When you meet a fellow Jew what quality do you think its more important for them to have:

A strong sense of Zionism and loyalty towards Israel ?

or

A strict following of the Torah and its teachings?

Two distinct things... Just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.

[Trumpeldor]

If one truly has the latter, then one has the former.

[Merkava]

Not really. I am not very observant myself and I only go to the synagogue in high holidyas but I would give up my life defending Israel if I had to.

[Trumpeldor]

Not really. I am not very observant myself and I only go to the synagogue in high holidyas but I would give up my life defending Israel if I had to.

Please re-read what I wrote. You don't HAVE to possess the latter to possess the former. However, if one TRULY has the latter, then one has the former.

[Dr. Dan]

When you meet a fellow Jew what quality do you think its more important for them to have:

A strong sense of Zionism and loyalty towards Israel ?

or

A strict following of the Torah and its teachings?

Two distinct things... Just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.

I either try not to distinct the two or try to put it in four groups instead of two:

1. Secular non Zionist: The worst kind unless misguided and impressionable
2. Secular Zionists:  Include people less religious than me, but love Israel has being a Jewish country.  I think i have the most in common with these Jews...and the best ones are the ones who love all righteous Jews and love Torah even though they might not practice halakha to the same extent as religious Jews.  The ones I'm not a fan of are anti-Torah Zionists...They try to be like other nations and try to lose the Jewish identity. We have to watch out for those.
3. Religious non-Zionists: I respect them because they are my brethren, but I disagree with them on their point of view of Israel.
4. Religious Zionists: This is what JTF wants and these, in my opinion, are the most courageous Jews.  I think these are the majority of Israeli Jews and possibly world Jewry.  I would say the secular zionists are a close second and religious non-zionists not far behind.

[judeanoncapta]

Zionism, the idea that Jews should have a state in the Land of Israel is as much a part of the Torah as Tzitzith or tefilin.

Since they are not two distinct things,the question is moot.

[Merkava]

Zionism, the idea that Jews should have a state in the Land of Israel is as much a part of the Torah as Tzitzith or tefilin.

Since they are not two distinct things,the question is moot.

Do you mean debatable?

I either try not to distinct the two or try to put it in four groups instead of two:

1. Secular non Zionist: The worst kind unless misguided and impressionable
2. Secular Zionists:  Include people less religious than me, but love Israel has being a Jewish country.  I think i have the most in common with these Jews...and the best ones are the ones who love all righteous Jews and love Torah even though they might not practice halakha to the same extent as religious Jews.  The ones I'm not a fan of are anti-Torah Zionists...They try to be like other nations and try to lose the Jewish identity. We have to watch out for those.
3. Religious non-Zionists: I respect them because they are my brethren, but I disagree with them on their point of view of Israel.
4. Religious Zionists: This is what JTF wants and these, in my opinion, are the most courageous Jews.  I think these are the majority of Israeli Jews and possibly world Jewry.  I would say the secular zionists are a close second and religious non-zionists not far behind.

I think Danny has hit it right in the spot....My distinction was a bit vague.

[judeanoncapta]

Zionism, the idea that Jews should have a state in the Land of Israel is as much a part of the Torah as Tzitzith or tefilin.

Since they are not two distinct things,the question is moot.

Do you mean debatable?

No i mean the question assumes the two are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Therefore the question is worthless.

[Dominater96]

A Religious Jew, is a Zionist. You can still be a religious person, without being a zionist. Rabbi Kahane woud say " I have more I have more in common then the Satmars, then the secular zionists".

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

They SHOULD be one in the same.

[takebackourtemple]

   There can only be a sense of Torah with the land of Israel. I don't consider the Satanmars Jewish because they go against the Torah by committing crimes against G-d's holy land.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I agree completely with TBOT. The Satmars/Neturei Karta scum are called by the Bible to be Amalek. This is because they are backstabbers who have declared war on their fellow Jews. Chaim would tell you there is no difference between these demons and the Germans.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Option #2.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Satmers didnt declare war on Jews. They do hate the state for obvious reasons and becuase of what the state has done to Jews. I dont fully agree/understand what they say, but I belive that they are allways targeted the most since they are totally independent of the state and dont recive bribe $, which lets them say whatever they want and which furthur infururates the Hellinists.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

   they go against the Torah by committing crimes against G-d's holy land.

  Thier was a time when I hated them myself (for no real reason, but because I was brainwashed), but HOW are they going against the Holy Land ? They dont like the state and the secular regime, and they hold from an opinion in the Talmud that we shouldnt have a state before Moshiah. (maybe not majority opinion but still an opinion- listin to Rav Bar Haim's shiur on this and bringing the opinions).

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

When you meet a fellow Jew what quality do you think its more important for them to have:

A strong sense of Zionism and loyalty towards Israel ?

or

A strict following of the Torah and its teachings?

Two distinct things... Just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.

The two are not distinct and if we allow them to be divided then we have let the Left and Arabs win. Those who hold signs saying "Zionism is Racism", are pure anti-semites who are simply covering it up. If you are a good Jew, then you are a Good Zionist, and if you are a Zionist you are at least a decent Jew. In the 60's and 70's the JDL wasnt saving Jews that had Tzitzit, they were saving more of the secular Zionist type Jews, who love everything Jewish, but don't know everything.

[Dr. Dan]

Zionism by nature is a big part of Torah Judaism. The first Zionists were Moses et al... So for a religious Jew to not be a Zionist whether it is to support the current state of Israel or support a future state of Israel would just be plain nuts. And by nuts I dont' mean cashews or Persian Pistachios.

[jdl4ever]

I am more radical and simply hate the Religious non Zionist Jews since they are heretics who are ruining our religion and uprooting the Torah.  I am not talking about those who are simply against the secular state as most of us want a religious one, but those who think that Israel can't be settled before the Massiah and those who believe in giving up the land to the Arabs for peace.  I know these people and their Rabbis and there are very few who are simply great Torah observing Jews who's only sin is being against the State as Tzvi thinks.  There is a entire belief system that most these people believe in which I could go on for pages talking about that is very dangerous to Judaism and is harming us.  They contradict the Torah blatantly and disguise their lies by saying "my Rebbe said it" and they make up insane interpretations of obvious verses plus they blatantly tell you that your traditions are nonsense and only they know the right path. In my opinion, 90% of the things wrong with the religious Charedim and Chassidim stem from this kind of belief system. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

theirs 2 ways or definitions of Zionism - one is Jews settling and repopulating the land of Israel, and the second is the political movement (which isnt clear of support)

[judeanoncapta]

I am more radical and simply hate the Religious non Zionist Jews since they are heretics who are ruining our religion and uprooting the Torah.  I am not talking about those who are simply against the secular state as most of us want a religious one, but those who think that Israel can't be settled before the Massiah and those who believe in giving up the land to the Arabs for peace.  I know these people and their Rabbis and there are very few who are simply great Torah observing Jews who's only sin is being against the State as Tzvi thinks.  There is a entire belief system that most these people believe in which I could go on for pages talking about that is very dangerous to Judaism and is harming us.  They contradict the Torah blatantly and disguise their lies by saying "my Rebbe said it" and they make up insane interpretations of obvious verses plus they blatantly tell you that your traditions are nonsense and only they know the right path. In my opinion, 90% of the things wrong with the religious Charedim and Chassidim stem from this kind of belief system. 

Truer words were never spoken.

[judeanoncapta]

theirs 2 ways or definitions of Zionism - one is Jews settling and repopulating the land of Israel, and the second is the political movement (which isnt clear of support)

That's insane.

Repopulating the land without creating a state ensures the repopulation to be VERY short-lived because the Arabs would of course expell or slaughter all Jews.

Don't be a fool, Tsvi.

[OdKahaneChai]

The second option.  But one who has the second has the first, and one who has the first has the second.  And, I certainly like the Satmar (who happen to have certain halachic opinions that I disagree with) a hundred times more than Secular "Zionists."

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.

[jdl4ever]

I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.

We support it because having a Jewish Israel is a safe haven for the Jews so another Holocost doesn't happen and it is doing what the Torah commands.  As for Amona, 90% of the Charedim learn all day in Yeshiva in Israel.  If they all would have left the Yeshiva and took a trip to Amona to defend it then we would have taken over.  I don't blame the working class Jews because they would have risked their job by going to prison for a few days.  I blame my fellow religious Jews more than I blame the hellonists, they simply see our weakness and take advantage of it.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.

We support it because having a Jewish Israel is a safe haven for the Jews so another Holocost doesn't happen and it is doing what the Torah commands.  As for Amona, 90% of the Charedim learn all day in Yeshiva in Israel.  If they all would have left the Yeshiva and took a trip to Amona to defend it then we would have taken over.  I don't blame the working class Jews because they would have risked their job by going to prison for a few days.  I blame my fellow religious Jews more than I blame the hellonists, they simply see our weakness and take advantage of it.

So going to work is more important than learning in Yeshiva? Im sorry but your hatred of Haredim and blaming them for everything is complete sinat hinam. Anyway at amona were younge people. For an adult to get invloved in that level wouldnt be smart on the indiviudal basis, but their needs to be something much bigger including a large part of society to create a bigger revolution.