ZIONISM or JUDAHISM ?

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?

That's simply not the case, Chaimfan.  And jdl4ever may be right about the "zt"l," I'm not sure.  But if you don't believe me about the quote, here's the video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oguHBnL5UYc (that is Part One - it's a four part video, and I don't remember which part it's in)

OdKahaneChai is right here, Kahane said that while he disagreed with the Satmer Rebbe, the Satmer was within the framework of Torah

[jdl4ever]

My mistake.  The one the Rav was talking about was that one who died in 1979.  He was the anti Zionist who told the Hungarian Jews to stay in Hungary and to not go to Israel.  I don't think the Rav meant what he said though since he said it in a mocking way and said "Zl" not "Zsl".  I got confused with the Chassidik lineages.  He had no sons so the next Satmur Rabbi was his close relative.  This one just died.

[OdKahaneChai]

A great Talmid Chacham should be praised, regardless of one's disagreements with them.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The basic thing is that their is a simple disagreement between different groups. Now arguing within that context is okay and perfectly fine, but then labeling the other side as being evil, etc. just becuase you happen to disagree with them in one area is wronge and thats evil.
 Hillel and Shemaya- and their students had fierce arguments all the time in the Beit Midrash but then were perfect/ best friends outside and showed the proper respect.

[Dominater96]

I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?

Face the facts. The Satmar rebbe was a great man, yes i do disagree with him on Israel, but he still was a giant in Torah. And face the fact, Rabbi Kahane called him a tzaddik, no matter how hard it is to believe.

[jdl4ever]

I don't think the Rav thought that he was a Tzadik simply because he said Z'l in public.  He just did it so that the crowd would learn a lesson that if he respects this Rabbi of Israel than they should respect him. And the Satmur viewpoint is not simply a valid Torah argument like you are implying, there is no "Torah argument" when you go directly against what the Torah says.  It's like saying Korach had a valid Torah argument. 

And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents?  Doesn't proof count for anything here?  Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts?  (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents?  Doesn't proof count for anything here?  Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts?  (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)

He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.

And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.

Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.

[Dominater96]

And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents?  Doesn't proof count for anything here?  Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts?  (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)

He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal very seriwith the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.

And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.

Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no commentnt

Where did u learn that the Satmar Rebbe, made a deal with the Nazis? And Rabbi Kahane was talking very seriously, when he called the Satmar rebbe ZT"L.  Face the facts, no it wasnt "sarcashm" he was a torah giant, something that u will never understand.

[OdKahaneChai]

And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents?  Doesn't proof count for anything here?  Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts?  (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)

He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.

And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.

Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.

He did not say it mockingly!  Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is.  The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!

[Dominater96]

And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents?  Doesn't proof count for anything here?  Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts?  (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)

He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.

And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.

Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.

He did not say it mockingly!  Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is.  The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!

Im not sure if he was a "great man", because he refused to recognize or help out Israel, I have no problem with the Non zionist for religious reasons, but I do with the Anti Zionist. All I know is that he was a giant in torah, and a talmid Hacham.

[jdl4ever]

I am surprised to find my fellow Kahanists calling this guy a Torah Scholar.  I'll keep the Loshan Harah to myself and curse him out privately. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

He did not say it mockingly!  Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is.  The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!

If you feel so confidently about this, you should ask Chaim.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I am surprised to find my fellow Kahanists calling this guy a Torah Scholar.  I'll keep the Loshan Harah to myself and curse him out privately. 

this is also a form of lashon hara.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And are we forgetting that the guy was PROVEN wrong when his advice killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews including my great grandparents?  Doesn't proof count for anything here?  Tzvi, you don't think that real life proof counts?  (You can guess what I think of the Satmur "Rebbe" but I won't say it here)

He wasn't "mistaken" or "wrong", JDL--the kapo Satmar "rebbe" deliberately told his followers to commit suicide because that was his end of the deal with the Nazis to allow him and his family to live. THAT is lower than simply killing Jews because you don't like them--that is the ULTIMATE betrayal and atrocity.

And yeah, it makes perfect sense that HaRav Kahane called him a "tzaddik" mockingly.

Dominater--your idolization of Nazi collaborators needs no comment.

He did not say it mockingly!  Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is.  The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!

I have no problem with the Non zionist for religious reasons, but I do with the Non Zionist.

Your statement seems contradictiory, can you clarify or correct.

[Dominater96]

Oh sorry gonna edit what I said now.

[jdl4ever]

I am surprised to find my fellow Kahanists calling this guy a Torah Scholar.  I'll keep the Loshan Harah to myself and curse him out privately. 

this is also a form of lashon hara.

Even a man who was righteous, Loshon Harah doesn't exist from the Torah after someone is dead by the way.  It's a Rabbinic decree not to make Loshon Hara after someone died. 

[OdKahaneChai]

He did not say it mockingly!  Chaimfan - you don't check your facts - and it seems you have no idea what a Tzaddik is.  The Satmar Rebbe, ZT"L, and that's right - ZT"L was a GREAT man!

If you feel so confidently about this, you should ask Chaim.

And if he disagrees with me?

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

The Satmer Rebbe misinterpreted some things, but at least his interpretations were reasonable and within the structure of Torah

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

This isn't a question of interpretation. This is the question of a man who (a) quite literally sold his soul to the Nazis, and ordered his faithful to commit suicide, so that he would be permitted to flee, and (b) afterwards did everything in his power to subvert and undermine the Jews that did manage to survive the Holocaust in his relentless attacks on Israel.

I can't believe that G-d would so casually forgive this simply because he was supposedly a learned rabbi. I certainly would not worship a G-d who is so flippant about mass murder.

If the Satmar "rebbe" was still a "righteous man" because he was a Torah expert, then it could be stated just as fairly that Martin Luther (ys"vz) was also a noble Bible scholar who was simply "mistaken" when it comes to Jews.

If you don't want to agree with me, as a Gentile, that is fine, but I would at least suggest asking Chaim how he feels about him. Actually I do know what he says of him--he has brought him up on Ask JTF many times.

Chaimfan

[OdKahaneChai]

This isn't a question of interpretation. This is the question of a man who (a) quite literally sold his soul to the Nazis, and ordered his faithful to commit suicide, so that he would be permitted to flee, and (b) afterwards did everything in his power to subvert and undermine the Jews that did manage to survive the Holocaust in his relentless attacks on Israel.

I can't believe that G-d would so casually forgive this simply because he was supposedly a learned rabbi. I certainly would not worship a G-d who is so flippant about mass murder.

If the Satmar "rebbe" was still a "righteous man" because he was a Torah expert, then it could be stated just as fairly that Martin Luther (ys"vz) was also a noble Bible scholar who was simply "mistaken" when it comes to Jews.

If you don't want to agree with me, as a Gentile, that is fine, but I would at least suggest asking Chaim how he feels about him. Actually I do know what he says of him--he has brought him up on Ask JTF many times.

Chaimfan

So I can disagree with Chaim here, can I not?  There is no proof for any of your facts.  The Satmar Rebbe was a Talmid Chacham and a Tzaddik.  Zecher Tzadik Livracha.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Define what makes a person a saint in Judaism.

Also, do you think Christians have the right to consider someone like Luther or Chrysostom a saint? (Obviously I don't, but many do.)

CF

[OdKahaneChai]

Define what makes a person a saint in Judaism.

Also, do you think Christians have the right to consider someone like Luther or Chrysostom a saint? (Obviously I don't, but many do.)

CF

To be honest, I could care less.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

But I am interested. How do you define what constitutes a saint in Judaism?

It is a real question--not an attempt to pick a fight.

Chaimfan.

[Dominater96]

There is no such thing as a saint in Judaism.

[OdKahaneChai]

But I am interested. How do you define what constitutes a saint in Judaism?

It is a real question--not an attempt to pick a fight.

Chaimfan.

There are no clear definitions...