Hassidic circumcision ritual

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think there are a few different issues here.

1: So anybody who is opposed to one very archaic and unsanitary method of circumcision, that most Jews oppose and do not practice, is actually a Nazi? Please. Give us a freaking break. Are you trying to make us laugh?

2: The issue at hand is that the Bible commands the circumcision of Jewish infants. It's open and shut. In the modern era there are hygienic ways to do this that minimize infection, pain, and blood loss. A great many doctors are frum Jews and have developed/pioneered/approved of such methods. Nobody here opposes circumcision!

3: Several people here, Gentile and Jewish both, seem to think that all male infants should be circumcised regardless of background. I think this is overstepping. This was a commandment given by G-d to the Jews, not all of mankind. I know that there are certain health benefits to circumcision regarding STD transmission, etc., but these would be moot points if boys were taught Biblical sexual morality and had sex with only one person that had also made a commitment to do the same. Gentile parents should make the choice for themselves without any pressure or guilttripping.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I think this rabbi is responding to the very real anti-Semitism that seems to be generated by this issue.  That said, his being a Holocaust survivor has nothing to do with this.... nothing.  I don't like that he tries to muddy the waters here.  I don't think that my dead relatives would like that, I dont think that honors Judaism and he's not a doctor.  He's talking about the mother and the siblings???  His disrespect of science is so gross, so thoughtless.  And this constant reference to the Holocaust is really [censored] me off.  Don't use guilt as a way to covertly demand adherence to your beliefs.   The fact that he shamelessly seems to mix one of the greatest tragedies with his own agenda is really just almost unforgiveable.  It's just SO wrong. 

[muman613]

I think there are a few different issues here.

1: So anybody who is opposed to one very archaic and unsanitary method of circumcision, that most Jews oppose and do not practice, is actually a Nazi? Please. Give us a freaking break. Are you trying to make us laugh?

2: The issue at hand is that the Bible commands the circumcision of Jewish infants. It's open and shut. In the modern era there are hygienic ways to do this that minimize infection, pain, and blood loss. A great many doctors are frum Jews and have developed/pioneered/approved of such methods. Nobody here opposes circumcision!

3: Several people here, Gentile and Jewish both, seem to think that all male infants should be circumcised regardless of background. I think this is overstepping. This was a commandment given by G-d to the Jews, not all of mankind. I know that there are certain health benefits to circumcision regarding STD transmission, etc., but these would be moot points if boys were taught Biblical sexual morality and had sex with only one person that had also made a commitment to do the same. Gentile parents should make the choice for themselves without any pressure or guilttripping.

'Most Jews' you refer to are reform, and they don't circumcise anyway...

All Orthodox circumcisions include this or else they are not valid halachically. As Tag has said several times it is not up to you to decide, nor all those who ignore the halacha, it is up to those who know the halacha..

Judaism is a system of laws and customs... We do not make stuff up as we go along like some other religions... So too on other issues, homosexual marriage, homosexual relations, ritual purity laws, laws of kashrut, etc... These are the laws, you either keep them, or you don't...


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/health/deadly-drug-resistant-infections-rise-in-hospitals-report-warns.html?_r=0

[JTFenthusiast2]

I think there are a few different issues here.

1: So anybody who is opposed to one very archaic and unsanitary method of circumcision, that most Jews oppose and do not practice, is actually a Nazi? Please. Give us a freaking break. Are you trying to make us laugh?

2: The issue at hand is that the Bible commands the circumcision of Jewish infants. It's open and shut. In the modern era there are hygienic ways to do this that minimize infection, pain, and blood loss. A great many doctors are frum Jews and have developed/pioneered/approved of such methods. Nobody here opposes circumcision!

3: Several people here, Gentile and Jewish both, seem to think that all male infants should be circumcised regardless of background. I think this is overstepping. This was a commandment given by G-d to the Jews, not all of mankind. I know that there are certain health benefits to circumcision regarding STD transmission, etc., but these would be moot points if boys were taught Biblical sexual morality and had sex with only one person that had also made a commitment to do the same. Gentile parents should make the choice for themselves without any pressure or guilttripping.

Whose guilt tripping Gentile parents?  If Jewish parents don't want to circumcise their children, then there should be no law demanding that they MUST do it either.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Didn't say that you were, I meant just in general that no Gentiles should feel pressured to do it.

[JTFenthusiast2]

'Most Jews' you refer to are reform, and they don't circumcise anyway...

All Orthodox circumcisions include this or else they are not valid halachically. As Tag has said several times it is not up to you to decide, nor all those who ignore the halacha, it is up to those who know the halacha..

Judaism is a system of laws and customs... We do not make stuff up as we go along like some other religions... So too on other issues, homosexual marriage, homosexual relations, ritual purity laws, laws of kashrut, etc... These are the laws, you either keep them, or you don't...


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/health/deadly-drug-resistant-infections-rise-in-hospitals-report-warns.html?_r=0

I do not like how this so called rabbi uses the Holocaust to institute fear in other Jews.  Shame on him.  In the worst case scenario, banning b'peh is not the initiation of Kristallnacht.  What kind of sick and selfish person would say something like that?? 

[muman613]

I do not like how this so called rabbi uses the Holocaust to institute fear in other Jews.  Shame on him.  In the worst case scenario, banning b'peh is not the initiation of Kristallnacht.  What kind of sick and selfish person would say something like that??

The nazis banned all Jewish rituals. Any country which follows the nazis lead will follow them to destruction.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

We were given a gift, but we couldn't hold on to it...

[JTFenthusiast2]

The nazis banned all Jewish rituals. Any country which follows the nazis lead will follow them to destruction.

Muman,

Fear is talking. It's talking through this rabbi's mouth and it's talking through you.  No one is saying ban circumcision.  No one is even saying ban b'peh.  I'm saying modify it.  We used to believe the world was flat. Is it heretical to say it's not?  Will we be punished for it? 

On a personal level, I dont like what this rabbi is doing.  He may not know it, but it's manipulative.  I believe in calling a Jew hater a Jew hater and not mincing any words about it, but this is not that.  I don't like that he invokes the Holocaust to distract from the needed discussion--certainly among Jews, about this practice.   I don't believe that everyone against b'peh as it is, is akin to a neonazi, that's just totally untrue, even if b'peh is used by neonazis to fuel their Jewish hatred.  After some reflection, I'm not sure I know what the answer is, but I know any religious freedom should be 2/2 to protecting the young from even a small chance of a totally unnecessary genital infection

[JTFenthusiast2]

We were given a gift, but we couldn't hold on to it...

Do you mean there is a mitzvah for b'peh?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman,

Fear is talking. It's talking through this rabbi's mouth and it's talking through you.  No one is saying ban circumcision.  No one is even saying ban b'peh.  I'm saying modify it.  We used to believe the world was flat. Is it heretical to say it's not?  Will we be punished for it? 

On a personal level, I dont like what this rabbi is doing.  He may not know it, but it's manipulative.  I believe in calling a Jew hater a Jew hater and not mincing any words about it, but this is not that.  I dont like that he invokes the Holocaust to distract from the needed discussion--certainly among Jews, about this practice.  I dont care if  particular person doesn't 'believe' in circumcision, then don't get circumcized!  I don't believe this debate about b'peh is like that and I don't believe that everyone against b'peh as it is, is akin to a neonazi, that's just totally untrue, even if b'peh is used by neonazis

 Who is the "we". We did not.

"FEAR" of-course and why shouldn't he? A smart person sees into the future and what leads to other things. Mayor Ban-Burg wants to take control and do what he likes in different fields. And by the way those of you who support guns scream about having yor rights yett here when it comes to freedom of religion and a thing having to do only within the religious realm are screaming about it?
 Giving government power and authority even in something that has the opportunity to do otherwise does and will lead to more authoritarian decrees. Any smart person can see it coming. Any smart person needs to read the comments on places like youtube to see and understand. 

 And by the way someone who either went through the holocaust or most likely had relatives decimated by the holocaust of-course would and does have sensitivity towards it. And mind you the Germans and their "culture" always had and probably has the element of being "nice" and doing things supposedly for the good of others and the good of society (as in Nationalist Socialism). Even when they lead Jews to the gas chambers they made sure to say things politely. 

[Dr. Dan]

In response to muman's rabbi: 

If metitza is not done by mouth then according him, none of us Jews including me, Chaim's kids, or a Jew who gets it via a glass tube had a valid circumcision?  I'm sorry, but that's just plain retarded. 

No one on the pro suction mouth even answered my argument. If using the mouth is an age old custom, then why do you not take a horse and buggy which was an age old custom?  Why not live amongst Quakers who rarely use modern technology?  There is something demented about this argument by some traditional Jews.

What's wrong with the glass tube?  Why must you be do vehemently stubborn about metitza beh peh?  Really?  I don't understand this zealotry and I don't understand how the glass tube suction is anti Judaism to your Chabad rabbi.  That's really messed up. 

Someone address me on this argument. If I'm ignored I'll assume I'm right and you lost the argument.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

In response to muman's rabbi: 

If metitza is not done by mouth then according him, none of us Jews including me, Chaim's kids, or a Jew who gets it via a glass tube had a valid circumcision?  I'm sorry, but that's just plain retarded. 

No one on the pro suction mouth even answered my argument. If using the mouth is an age old custom, then why do you not take a horse and buggy which was an age old custom?  Why not live amongst Quakers who rarely use modern technology?  There is something demented about this argument by some traditional Jews.

What's wrong with the glass tube?  Why must you be do vehemently stubborn about metitza beh peh?  Really?  I don't understand this zealotry and I don't understand how the glass tube suction is anti Judaism to your Chabad rabbi.  That's really messed up. 

Someone address me on this argument. If I'm ignored I'll assume I'm right and you lost the argument.

 You are Sefardic, you had it done as well.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

In response to muman's rabbi: 

If metitza is not done by mouth then according him, none of us Jews including me, Chaim's kids, or a Jew who gets it via a glass tube had a valid circumcision?  I'm sorry, but that's just plain retarded. 

No one on the pro suction mouth even answered my argument. If using the mouth is an age old custom, then why do you not take a horse and buggy which was an age old custom?  Why not live amongst Quakers who rarely use modern technology?  There is something demented about this argument by some traditional Jews.

What's wrong with the glass tube?  Why must you be do vehemently stubborn about metitza beh peh?  Really?  I don't understand this zealotry and I don't understand how the glass tube suction is anti Judaism to your Chabad rabbi.  That's really messed up. 

Someone address me on this argument. If I'm ignored I'll assume I'm right and you lost the argument.

 I never said or say it MUST be done this way and not another way. I am addressing 2 facts. Those who bash the Mohels and Rabbanim on this and 2) those who wish to interfere in Jewish life and do things like bann it.

 Also you can't say you won the argument without listening to the experts on this issue. Why don't you contact a competent Rav on this and ask him yourself on what you should do in your situation.

[Rubystars]

It's not that the mohel is actually intending any harm to the child or that they are actually a pedophile that's the problem. The problem is twofold.

One, that it directly resembles an act of pedophilia. Even though the mohel is not getting any kind of sexual enjoyment from it, the resemblance is a problem enough in itself. Sometimes appearance really does matter regardless of intent. These rabbis are not pedophiles, and do not intend any harm to the babies. However the fact that such an act done by anybody else in a different context would be considered to be criminal pedophilia should give people pause at the very least. You want to avoid the appearance of unrighteousness even if nothing harmful is actually going on.

The second, and arguably more important reason, is that this act can cause permanent harm through infection. Herpes is not curable. It's a life-long, painful, and contagious disease.  Other viruses and bacteria can also be present in the human mouth, and contrary to what some people might think, mouthwash just reduces the number of bacteria in the mouth, it by no means makes the mouth sterile.

[muman613]

In response to muman's rabbi: 

If metitza is not done by mouth then according him, none of us Jews including me, Chaim's kids, or a Jew who gets it via a glass tube had a valid circumcision?  I'm sorry, but that's just plain retarded. 

No one on the pro suction mouth even answered my argument. If using the mouth is an age old custom, then why do you not take a horse and buggy which was an age old custom?  Why not live amongst Quakers who rarely use modern technology?  There is something demented about this argument by some traditional Jews.

What's wrong with the glass tube?  Why must you be do vehemently stubborn about metitza beh peh?  Really?  I don't understand this zealotry and I don't understand how the glass tube suction is anti Judaism to your Chabad rabbi.  That's really messed up. 

Someone address me on this argument. If I'm ignored I'll assume I'm right and you lost the argument.

Dan,

As we have said OVER AND OVER.... The issue is HALACHA, or Jewish Law...

Why don't we ride a horse and buggy? Because there is no halacha preventing us from using an automobile, unless it is Shabbat... But then again a horse and buggy would be prohibited on Shabbat also, so there is your answer.

We do not use electricity by turning it on or off during Shabbat, I guess that too is a backward custom... I guess cooking on Friday so we don't have to cook on Shabbat is also a backward custom which should be thrown out. There are so many Halachas which don't fit in the modern world... What should we do?

Your questions have answers if you look for them..

The glass tube is a question which needs investigation whether it satisfies the Halacha. According to those in Chabad who looked at the issue it is not valid. My Rabbi did not give me the entire reason but I am sure when we have more time we will discuss it fully.

PS: I wasn't aware that Chaim had kids... I was not even aware he was married.. But maybe that is because he has not discussed it..

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

In response to muman's rabbi: 

If metitza is not done by mouth then according him, none of us Jews including me, Chaim's kids, or a Jew who gets it via a glass tube had a valid circumcision?  I'm sorry, but that's just plain retarded. 

No one on the pro suction mouth even answered my argument. If using the mouth is an age old custom, then why do you not take a horse and buggy which was an age old custom?  Why not live amongst Quakers who rarely use modern technology?  There is something demented about this argument by some traditional Jews.

What's wrong with the glass tube?  Why must you be do vehemently stubborn about metitza beh peh?  Really?  I don't understand this zealotry and I don't understand how the glass tube suction is anti Judaism to your Chabad rabbi.  That's really messed up. 

Someone address me on this argument. If I'm ignored I'll assume I'm right and you lost the argument.

Exactly, if you give them anything they will take it all! The Rabbis aren't freaks, they are doing what they've done for thousands of years. Maybe modern society are the freaks...

[Dr. Dan]

You are Sefardic, you had it done as well.

Were you at my bris?  Last I checked I was born before you.  My parents don't practice sefardic customs since moving to the US nor would they allow the mohel to use his mouth especially that my father is a pediatrician.

Tag, you need to aim before you pull the trigger.

[Dr. Dan]

I never said or say it MUST be done this way and not another way. I am addressing 2 facts. Those who bash the Mohels and Rabbanim on this and 2) those who wish to interfere in Jewish life and do things like bann it.

 Also you can't say you won the argument without listening to the experts on this issue. Why don't you contact a competent Rav on this and ask him yourself on what you should do in your situation.

I was addressing muman on this point and not at you, tag.

Secondly I would only do suction through the glass tube irregardless of what a rav said. If I had a son, his Brit would be complete with a different mode of metitza.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Do you mean there is a mitzvah for b'peh?

No, I was talking about America. We have failed and have been sucked right back into what we fought so hard against!

[Dr. Dan]

But muman, how is it that the glass tube is acceptably by other learned ravs?  I'm sorry to say, but any rabbi or individual who thinks the glass tube is not worthy of acceptable metitza is nothing more than ignorant and backward. Why be so closed minded about it? 

It's not enough of an argument to say that a certain halakhic method, and not the actual halakha, was done for thousands of years and therefore.....  That's not how Judaism works. Halakhic methods for certain things have evolved such as monogamous marriages to please Christians. Why not use a more acceptable and more effective metitza? 

It's a very logical question which you keep avoiding the answer. It's not acceptable to say it has been done 1000's if years.  Suction is necessary. I get it. But how it should be sucked is only a halakhic method.

Dan,

As we have said OVER AND OVER.... The issue is HALACHA, or Jewish Law...

Why don't we ride a horse and buggy? Because there is no halacha preventing us from using an automobile, unless it is Shabbat... But then again a horse and buggy would be prohibited on Shabbat also, so there is your answer.

We do not use electricity by turning it on or off during Shabbat, I guess that too is a backward custom... I guess cooking on Friday so we don't have to cook on Shabbat is also a backward custom which should be thrown out. There are so many Halachas which don't fit in the modern world... What should we do?

Your questions have answers if you look for them..

The glass tube is a question which needs investigation whether it satisfies the Halacha. According to those in Chabad who looked at the issue it is not valid. My Rabbi did not give me the entire reason but I am sure when we have more time we will discuss it fully.

PS: I wasn't aware that Chaim had kids... I was not even aware he was married.. But maybe that is because he has not discussed it..

[Dr. Dan]

And Chaim has no children nor is married. He answered in a past jtf that if he had a son he would not do metitza beh peh

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

We have explained it over and over again, it is concerning sucking a drop of blood in order to increase the flow of blood in order to reduce infection.

That you suggest something sinister is a question you should address because if I suggest something you would be insulted.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/569,2173973/Why-does-a-mohel-suck-the-blood-after-circumcision.html

Lol I agree w you muman.  I can tell you were really holding back w/ that one. Haha. But you are right.  This was something done as a medical procedure.  If someone thinks there is something disgusting about it then they have the sick mind.  Its like saying its disgusting that a woman opens up for the gynecologist and for him to poke around and prod.  Its not sick its a professional medical care.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

After almost 13 years with JTF I turn and stab the Jews in the back!
Calm down. I still love you.
BTW you spelled faggot wrong.
And please stop using AOL.

Lol

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A person that does something like this must be hanged immediately!

Maybe you should be hanged.  Shall we draw straws?