Rabbi Ovadia Yosef question (NOT a flame)

[Dr. Dan]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.

It's a hypothetical ruling...

Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.

No he isn't...

Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.

R' Yosef is not in the gov't.  Shas is...

As to why they are, I have no idea.  I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.

odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.

Let me ask you something:

Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset.  What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?

a 55 - 54 majority?

Guess again...

a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?

No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats.  But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together.  Meretz has 5 seats.  That would make it 60 - 60.  You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.

Oh i get it!!!  if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas

[OdKahaneChai]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.

It's a hypothetical ruling...

Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.

No he isn't...

Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.

R' Yosef is not in the gov't.  Shas is...

As to why they are, I have no idea.  I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.

odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.

Let me ask you something:

Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset.  What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?

a 55 - 54 majority?

Guess again...

a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?

No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats.  But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together.  Meretz has 5 seats.  That would make it 60 - 60.  You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.

Oh i get it!!!  if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas

Exactly! We cannot have this guy in power for another 2 years...

[Dr. Dan]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.

It's a hypothetical ruling...

Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.

No he isn't...

Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.

R' Yosef is not in the gov't.  Shas is...

As to why they are, I have no idea.  I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.

odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.

Let me ask you something:

Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset.  What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?

a 55 - 54 majority?

Guess again...

a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?

No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats.  But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together.  Meretz has 5 seats.  That would make it 60 - 60.  You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.

Oh i get it!!!  if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas

Exactly! We cannot have this guy in power for another 2 years...

lets go and kick him in the nuts!

[OdKahaneChai]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.

It's a hypothetical ruling...

Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.

No he isn't...

Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.

R' Yosef is not in the gov't.  Shas is...

As to why they are, I have no idea.  I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.

odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.

Let me ask you something:

Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset.  What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?

a 55 - 54 majority?

Guess again...

a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?

No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats.  But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together.  Meretz has 5 seats.  That would make it 60 - 60.  You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.

Oh i get it!!!  if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas

Exactly! We cannot have this guy in power for another 2 years...

lets go and kick him in the nuts!

That'll do a lot..

[Lubab]

It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.

I hear ya...

Question: How much evil must you do to be evil?

Truth? Really everybody has SOME good in them. The good might be so little and the bad so great that we need to kill them, but nobody is really pure evil. Only in the realm of the angels is there pure evil or even pure good. 

How can angels be evil if they don't have free will?

Because G-d told them to be evil.

[Dominater96]

Hello--

I have a simple question I'd like an answer for. I know many people at JTF are fond of the Sefardic Torah Scholar Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. I'd like for one or more of those who support him to answer a basic question I have:

Can you please explain, from Torahic/Talmudic sources, his ruling that Arab life is worth sparing, even if it requires ceding Jewish land?

I am asking this very respectfully, and will not argue with your answer. I'd just like to hear the basis for this belief that he has.

Chaimfan

Ive never heard Hacham Ovadia say this, show me were he says this?

[Dominater96]

I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.

[Lubab]

I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.

Maybe Rabbi Ovadiya should go into herem for endangering Jewish lives. It wouldn't be the first time in Jewish history a great torah sage turned corrupt and was excommunicated. These things have happened and you need to be on the alert for it, even a great Torah scholar may be going down the wrong path and we can't sit idly by and let it happen.

I don't see you really attacking the validity of the arguments. You are just attacking our right to make the arguments.

[Dominater96]

Ive argued it many times on this forum. Im not arguing that Hacham Ovadias viwe is correct, it is something I disagree with vehemently, Im just protecting te gadols honor. It is Asur to call him names. Ive told people this many times but they dont seem to care.

[DownwithIslam]

I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.

Maybe Rabbi Ovadiya should go into herem for endangering Jewish lives. It wouldn't be the first time in Jewish history a great torah sage turned corrupt and was excommunicated. These things have happened and you need to be on the alert for it, even a great Torah scholar may be going down the wrong path and we can't sit idly by and let it happen.

I don't see you really attacking the validity of the arguments. You are just attacking our right to make the arguments.

Lubab, you just said what I was thinking in an eloquent way.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.

 Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefardim and not any outsiders.

[Dr. Dan]

one should be mindful how they talk about a rabbi even if it is Ovadia Yosef.  It is one thing to curse a rabbi, but another thing to disagree, to criticize, and to rebuke the actions of that rabbi.  For disagreeing, criticizing, and rebuking are also acts of love.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

one should be mindful how they talk about a rabbi even if it is Ovadia Yosef.  It is one thing to curse a rabbi, but another thing to disagree, to criticize, and to rebuke the actions of that rabbi.  For disagreeing, criticizing, and rebuking are also acts of love.

I did not attack him!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.

How did I slander him?

[Lubab]

lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.

 Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.

I'm not influenced by what people say here. I've formed my opinion on this long ago when I heard my Rebbe speak on the topic about "those Rabbis" who claim we should give away land to save Jewish lives.

The Rebbe ripped their argument to shreds...he was not very kind about the whole situation and the danger that their words are causing.

I'm doing this in the name of my Rebbe.

[Lubab]

Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.

[jdl4ever]

From what I'm seeing from Lubab I wouldn't be surprised if the rumor is true that R' Kahane and the Lubovitcher Rebbe were really working together.   

[OdKahaneChai]

Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.

Huh?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.

 Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.

I'm not influenced by what people say here. I've formed my opinion on this long ago when I heard my Rebbe speak on the topic about "those Rabbis" who claim we should give away land to save Jewish lives.

The Rebbe ripped their argument to shreds...he was not very kind about the whole situation and the danger that their words are causing.

I'm doing this in the name of my Rebbe.

Actually the Lubavitch Rabbi also said allmost the same thing, BUT since giving away land does not bring security then its not a good idea and not allowed to even discuss. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita wrote some time ago that land for True peace is valid (according to his opinion), but since we see with the situation NOW it is obvious that their cant and will not be peace with the arabs, so we dont see him discussing or even suggesting that he will agree to give away any land. Fact is that many people dont like him (expecially in the media) because of some things he said. To start with the media, he probably said that allmost anyone working in that field will have no place in the next world, and I have heard that from Sefardic Rabbis who are a lot less controversial. Alo he made comments on the Holocaust which pissed people off, also on the arabs etc. I see people hating on him both on the left and the right. When things are presented to many of the pro-land people, they are made to belive that the Rabbi is a leftist, and wants to give every piece of land away. When presented to the left and also the everage people, the Rav is made to look like hes only out for $, and hates arabs (calling for their annihilation), also cursing the idf, and other nasty things that are made up or stretching and twisting the truth.

[Dr. Dan]

one should be mindful how they talk about a rabbi even if it is Ovadia Yosef.  It is one thing to curse a rabbi, but another thing to disagree, to criticize, and to rebuke the actions of that rabbi.  For disagreeing, criticizing, and rebuking are also acts of love.

I did not attack him!

Oh no no...i'm just speaking in general...

CF, you were respectful and i think most peopel on this thread tried to be.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.

 I didnt say the Rabbe (allthought some might say that) but the movement today, having to do with the whole "the Rabbe is moshiach" thing. But whatever its not important, nor do I want to start a discussion about this right now, becuase it wont create anything productive. The only reason I brought it up was because of what you said about excommunicating a Gadol Hador.

[Lubab]

Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.

 I didnt say the Rabbe (allthought some might say that) but the movement today, having to do with the whole "the Rabbe is moshiach" thing. But whatever its not important, nor do I want to start a discussion about this right now, becuase it wont create anything productive. The only reason I brought it up was because of what you said about excommunicating a Gadol Hador.

Crazier thing have happened then a "Gadol Hador" being excommunicated.
My point was that these attacks on Chabad regarding the whole issue of Moshiach are rooted in ignorance and sinas chinam as were the previous attacks on Chabad which preceded this controversy.

If it wasn't Moshiach it was always something else. Until of course, years later they would concede the point and actually start copying what Chabad was doing as happened in the "Kiruv controversy".

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
 About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.

[OdKahaneChai]

I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
 About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.

Meshichistim are in the vast minority in Chabad.

[DownwithIslam]

Lubab, I have come to like Lubavitch from listening to Chaim and your comments in this thread have made me like them even more. Whether or not the meshiach guys are right, the shas supporters here have no moral authority to criticize it considering the fact that their rabbi is an immoral piece of drek whose tuchis should roast for all the money he stole and the jewish deaths he is responsible for. What makes Mr Yosef such a "gadol?" Is it because he is fat? Is it because he walks around with a big shtecken and fancy clothes. Does he have golden gatkes? Or maybe it's because he is offering the muslims the most land for their rubbels.