Great arguement on PW over Israel

[MarZutra]

Thank you Paulette for your words.  My sole intention here is not to prove my being "right" and someone else "wrong" but to simply offer another view.  A view that is often overlooked, bastardized or intentionally censored due to various social, religious or political agendas at work today.  A very good example is "Political Correctness" founded by Joseph Stalin in 1929.

I hope to encourage thought, independant research and the opportunity for intellectually stimulating conversation for all readers and not only those directly taking part.  Lord knows, I'm probably wrong more than most others. 

"Teach thy tongue to say "I don't know" and thou shalt progress..." - Moses Maimonides: Rabbi, Physician and Philosopher. 1135  - 1204.

Or the oft chance one meets a Communist, Nazis, Mohammadan or Erev Rav anti-Jew Savage: "There is no such thing as a stupid question.  Just stupid people..." - Herbert Garrison 

Crusader, here is a video/interview/lecture with Dr. Andrew Bostom, Author of "The Legacy of Jihad" and "The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism" within which he outlines the Islamic/Sharia jurisprudance not only to make war on Dar al-Harb, by any means necessary, but also the specific issue being the crux of his fabulously well documented book on Islamic Antisemtism.  Further he speaks directly on the subject you've introduced here "The Golden Age of Islam".  VIDEO: http://somebodyhelpme.info/andrew_bostom/legacy.html   Enjoy 

[Muck DeFuslims]

Marzutra, you do a fabulous job of disproving Crusader's assertion that Islam and Muslims are not anti-Jewish and that Jewish life under Muslim rule was benign, or even pleasant.

But please, do not lose sight of who and what you're dealing with when amicably debating with people like 'Crusader'.

"There is no such thing as a stupid question.  Just stupid people..." - Herbert Garrison 

Crusader is clearly not stupid. However, he is ignorant, or at the very least uses selective ignorance and intentionally distorts reality to jusitfy his propaganda and agenda.

And what exactly is Crusader's agenda ?

His postings in this thread reveal that he desires the dissolution of the state of Israel. He clearly believes that Jews have no right of self-determination or statehood. He is convinced that 'white western colonists' (ie. European Jews) have no right to live in the Land of Israel. He is convinced that it is the Jews who are the aggressors that steal the land of the mythical Palestinians and commit acts of genocide against what he likes to call the 'indigenous people'.

Crusader harbors dreams of a world without Israel. He likes the idea of Jews living under Muslim rule. He would like to convince us that we shouldn't fear living under the thumb of Muslims. He would sit by idly while the Muslims persecute and slaughter the 'white western colonists' and think to himself 'well, they deserved it anyway".

No, Crusader isn't stupid, but he is evil. And he is an enemy of the Jewish people.

So, while it's fine to "encourage thought, independant research and the opportunity for intellectually stimulating conversation for all readers and not only those directly taking part", please do not forget that Crusader and his ilk are contemptible vermin and deserve absolutely no respect.

Thanks, and keep up the good fight.

[Crusader]

Marzunta it seems your anti-islamic tendencies do you harm in repect of knowing your history. First off you try and tar all muslims with the one brush, if that is so then can all Jews be tarred with the same brush in respect of the facist zionists and their ethnic cleansing against the indigenous people in palestine in 1948? i wouldn't tar all Jews with that stain, but anything any group of muslims do, you seem to think its ok to blame them all. furthermore the fact you left out that Maimonides eventually working for Saladin speaks volumnes about your agenda.

'Secondly, Arabs are not a semitic people'


unfortunately they are, particularly the palestinians who can trace their lineage back to the cannanites just like the indigenous jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Ancient_Semitic_peoples

And if you believe they are hamitic, doesn't that mean they are directly descended from Noah?


Marzunta, the Golden Age of islam did exist, and we have many things to thank them for. it seems in your hatred of all things islamic you cannot bring yourself to admit this basic fact of history.

'The Crusades were brought on to re-claim the Holyland from the Mohammadan Jihadists.'

The crusades started because the byzantines, worried about there loss at Manzikert, asked the west for help. Pope Urban duly obliged and the land hungry frankish knights headed east. Also care to tell us about what they did when they reached jerusalem/Jebus in 1099? Or is that too uncomfortable?

Also you recommend 'The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Crusades'. The title says it all. Spencer does admit Crusader atrocities, but he believes the land hungry nobles were there to reclaim lost territory, whilst ignoring the reality of the 461 yr gap between 638 and 1099, Spencer also isn't too keen in admitting that the crusades were a failure,never mind the squabbling between said nobles about how to divide up the spoils among them.
his other works titles illustrate his rather blatant bias...

'The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion'
 
 'Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't'

  'Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs' 
 
 

[MarZutra]

Brother I largely agree with what you say.  Like the Erev Rav "Jewish" anti-Jew can make tshuva....especially once they realize they've been duped into being a follower or what the elite of the Left would identify as "the useful idiot."

That said, I will debate with anyone who keeps a civil conversation even if being from a contra or of "politically correct" anti-Jew/Communist....  

Should the conversation/debate digress into the individual voices insults or attacks.  This is when the third strike....you're out policy.  Some come here simply to attack.  Some come for deceitful purposes which are most often exposed, but if a truly benighted individual being Christian or Jew comes here solely due to his/her embracement of the distortions of a "Politically Correct" agenda, they should be given every opportunity to express their views and opinion with our freedom to supply another position for them to reasearch for themselves independantly.....  providing they are "open minded" as they all continually state they are.....

I see your point and thank you for your advice and imput...  

[MarZutra]

Marzunta it seems your anti-islamic tendencies do you harm in repect of knowing your history. Not at all.  I firmly believe that you MUST read the Koran, Hadith and research the facts for yourself before you state such a position.First off you try and tar all muslims with the one brush, No, I tarnish Islam.  It is the individual's choice to embrace Islam.  If you knew what Islam is you'd not hold these opinions my friend...  I get the undressed feeling that you are not reading nor reseaching any of my facts/positions.  You most certainly wouldn't have stated any of this, had you watched the lecture with Andrew Bostom or read the works of Ba't Yeor.if that is so then can all Jews be tarred with the same brush in respect of the facist zionists Not at all.  Islam is a religion, like Judaism and are decidedly opposite in actuality and religious jurisprudance.  I agree with you that the "Zionists" that head Israel are Fascists, more correctly, I'd say they are Bolsheviks but their major proplem is that they do not support Jews but the enemies of the Jew...and their ethnic cleansing What ethnic cleansing?  Do you even know what ethnic cleansing is?  NOTHING in Israel's history constitutes mislables like "ethnic cleansing" "holocaust" or "genocide" nothing.  There is nothing comparable to Nazis Germany or Turkish treatment of the Abanians within Israel.  Nothing.  This is pure disinformation...period.against the indigenous people in palestine in 1948? The Jews were the indigenous peoples of "Palestine" before 1948.  I see again you are not reading my posts particularly the one being about the bulk of Arabs came after 1888 to get employment from the Jews who were rebuilding their homelands that they purchased from absentee Turkish and Arab (singular) landlords.  "History of Israel" - Sacher.  Please read before you respond...i wouldn't tar all Jews with that stain, but anything any group of muslims do, you seem to think its ok to blame them all. You are molesting the position here my friend.  Islam is one subject with its own aforementioned agenda and the Arabs of Israel are decidedly another. furthermore the fact you left out that Maimonides eventually working for Saladin speaks volumnes about your agenda. I didn't leave it out, I simply pointed out that he fled from the EXACT place that was known for and supposedly produced "The Golden Age of Islam": Andalusia.  The fact that Maimonides worked for Saladin's appointed representative: al-Fadil, not Saladin himself is another issue.  If you'd read, under "dhimmi" status the Kufar (non muslims living in muslim lands) are, in fact slaves.  They are forced to pay a poll/head tax called the Jizya.  In many cases their sons are confiscated in failure to pay the tax and taken away to be slaves and raised Muslim while the female children are taken into the Sultan's Harem.  If you read up on the Ottoman, Caliph, from Islamic, Christian, Greek, Armenian, Hindu, Zoastar etc. sources you will see that this was the common occurance within the Islamic World...Hell slavery is still practiced.  Further under "dhimmi" "peoples of the book" the kufar slaves are exploited.  Maimonides was a brillant Rabbi, Philosopher and Physician for his day, so it makes absolute sense that he serve the ruler as no other Muslim was obviously up to the level of Maimonides.  Further, if the local Imam decided to be rid of the dhimmi/kufar in his local, similar to the pogroms in Europe/Russia, the muslim horde would come and burn down the synagoge, rape the women and murder the men.  A common occurance then and today within the Muslim world, which I've documented previously...

'Secondly, Arabs are not a semitic people'

unfortunately they are, particularly the palestinians who can trace their lineage back to the cannanites just like the indigenous jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Ancient_Semitic_peoples

No, fortunately they are NOT semitic as "Semitic" applies to language not race.  The entire "racial" issue as it relates to this bastardized subject solely stems from the minds of people like Alfred Rosenberg, Karl Brandt and Houston Stewart Chamberlain.  Please research this subject further for yourself.  I believe that link also provided other sources directly related to this screwed up subject of race vs linguistics. 

Arabic, as I've said, like Hebrew are Semitic languages.  PS: Wikipedia is a source that must be continually checked.  As a matter of fact there was a recent article in the US where University Students used Wikipedia to quote their sources which were incorrect which resulted in these students failure..

And if you believe they are hamitic, doesn't that mean they are directly descended from Noah? You are a Christian, which means you are supposed to have some faith in the Bible.  The Bible, which many other theories are based, relays the nations of the Earth.  The Nation always goes through the mother, which is also akin to Islam.  Ham (Hamites) -Hagar (Abraham)-Ishmael: Ishmaelites: Arabs.  Where the Jews came from the lines of Shechem-Sarah (Abraham) -Isaiac - Jacob/Israel: Israelites: Hebrews: Judeans: Jews, correctly Shechemites.

Marzunta, the Golden Age of islam did exist, and we have many things to thank them for. it seems in your hatred of all things islamic you cannot bring yourself to admit this basic fact of history. Again, you've not read anything I've state formerly.  You've not checked any of my referances, facts or cared to open your mind and tolerate viewing the lecture with Andrew Bostom which, more than in-depthly, relates all the information you need to self study into this "poltically correct" Edward Saidian anti-Christian/Jew fabrication.  It might be good for you to research your own history prior to delving into others because Christians were also "dhimmi" under the so-called "Golden Age of Islam".  Purchase Ba't Yeor's "The Dhimmi"...or read the article I supplie to you on this subject if you don't have time to watch the video.  I'm sure Christians also liked having to pay the Jizya, children confiscated and their churches pulled down or made into Mosques...which is occuring today....if you care to open your eyes...

'The Crusades were brought on to re-claim the Holyland from the Mohammadan Jihadists.'

The crusades started because the byzantines, worried about there loss at Manzikert, asked the west for help. Ok, who was in the Holyland first the Christian or the Mohammadan?  or better, who was in Israel: the Holyland: Judea first the Judean: Jew, Christian or Mohammadan?  Funny, you cannot even recognize that the Mohammadan stole the land via Jihad from the Christian....forget the Jews... Pope Urban duly obliged and the land hungry frankish knights headed east. True...but why?  to re-claim the Holyland...Also care to tell us about what they did when they reached jerusalem/Jebus in 1099? They massacred Jews and MohammadansOr is that too uncomfortable? Not at all... documentation by...the name escapes me... stated that they rode up to their bridles in blood... You seem to forget that the expansion of Islam via Jihad (war) was going on almost against the infidel for 469 years prior to the crusades?  Care to discuss how Tamorlane's invasion of India and wherever he vanquished he piled high (20feet or better) with skulls of the Hindu worriors, old, young, male, female...all in the example of Mohammad himself?  How about educating yourself on Mohammads invasion of Medina, an the elimination of the Banu Qurayza during the Battle of the Trench on March 31, 627?  Why do you not research about the Mohammadan's expansion and conquest of, not only India, Afghanistan, Persia or Babylon but Egypt, North Africa, Spain, Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria and what is today known as Turkey?  Why do you care not for your own history but continue to embrace anti-Christian history and the disinformation surrounding the enemy of, not only the Jew, Christianity?  The Koran and Hadity are very harsh on Christians as you are fit for the Flaming Fires of Hell....

Also you recommend 'The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Crusades'. The title says it all. Spencer does admit Crusader atrocities, but he believes the land hungry nobles were there to reclaim lost territory, whilst ignoring the reality of the 461 yr gap between 638 and 1099, He doesnt' ignore it at all.  I think you are hardly in the position to be able to debate Spencer on any subject relating to Islam.  Do you even know what "Political Correctness" is?  Why it was formed?  And who was its formulator?Spencer also isn't too keen in admitting that the crusades were a failure, never mind the squabbling between said nobles about how to divide up the spoils among them. Of course the Crusades were a failure, but Jihad wasn't as much of a failure considering the Mohammadan and his Mohammadanism has invaded, vanquished and enslaved non-Muslim peoples from Asia to Spain.  Did you ever research the history of the Gypsies?  How do you think the got to Eastern Europe?  Where did they come from?  Why did they leave?  I'm starting to feel, by your wilfull blindness and absolute hatred for Christians/Christianity, due to your ignorance of their history, that you are infact a Mohammadan Koranimal Savage.  Before you comment I strongly suggest you go read those holy books of those you've so adamantely embraced their defence.  You too continually over look the fact that the Mohammadan has dozens of states that make up almost 1/3rd of this Earth's surface but you're concerned of one tiny Jewish State that is comparable to what Rhode Island?
his other works titles illustrate his rather blatant bias...

'The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion' If you'd take the time and actually read the Koran/Hadith you'd see he's absolutely correct..... 
 
 'Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't'

  'Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs' 
I've never read these ones but I've the Mohammad one and many others.  Funny how I can tolerate reading the source documents: Koran, Hadith, Surah and many others...as well the Edward Saidian garbage but you haven't even bothered to read the base documents, forget about the Robert Spencers and Ibn Warraqs.... Yet you supply these ignorant and totally benighted opinions. 

You are now trying my patience.  I've shown respect and even read through your facts but you cannot and will not bother to tolerate self and independant research into anything I've supplied.

I am out from this subject as you are wasting my time and will not even be open minded, tolerant and truly "progressive" in your closure and intolerance to everything I've aforementioned.

Regards and best,
MarZutra
 

[Crusader]

'No, I tarnish Islam. '

And by extension all muslims.

'What ethnic cleansing? '

Ahh right, now whose being revisionist. it is FACT that Plan Dalet ethnically cleansed large swathes of palestine and attempted to de-arabise Galilee.

 'There is nothing comparable to Nazis Germany or Turkish treatment of the Abanians within Israel.'

The history of the nakba would disagree with you. While not equivalent, one can indeed compare it.

'The Jews were the indigenous peoples of "Palestine" before 1948.'

Ahh so there was only Jews in palestine at the time, nobody else? Were all jews in the world indigenous to palestine at this time?

'the bulk of Arabs came after 1888 to get employment from the Jews who were rebuilding their homelands that they purchased from absentee Turkish and Arab (singular) landlords.'

Read much Joan Peters do we? laughable, really i thought you better than producing this old propaganda. I suggest you burn your copy of 'from time immemorial' as it ranks alongside the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' as infamous frauds. Arabs and more precisely those non-jews indigenous to palestine ethnically cleansed during the nakba were semitic people. Your screaming at facts here.

'Ok, who was in the Holyland first the Christian or the Mohammadan?'

The christian faith, but islam is a religion which spread, islam is not a people. So christian converts can conquer land but muslim converts can't is that your belief? 

'Care to discuss how Tamorlane's invasion of India'

Tamerlane or more precisely Timur-i-Leng had both turkish and mongol descent. now if you know your history you know the mongols only notionally adopted islam as their faith. Indeed Tamerlane nearly obliterated the ottoman empire at an early stage. his viciousness had little to do with Islam, but its interesting you try and portray it as such. Also you neglect to mention his descendants the Mughals occupied most of india and actually created one of the most religiously tolerant regimes in Islamic history. but this obvioulsy doesn't fit with your agenda of painting islam as the devil.

Im no fan of Edward Said, never mind the fact he was a Christian anyway. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about him?

'You too continually over look the fact that the Mohammadan has dozens of states'

And what? Are all muslim one people or one ethnic race...what kind of bollox is this? Jews are not one people, or race. Do you think all catholics should live in one country?? Your showing the facist side of zionism now, coveting land not yours. Which is what happened in 1948.

Funny that you mention Ibn Warraqs and his criticism of islam and their societies, but funny also that any jew who criticses the torah or israel is labelled a self-hating anti-semite pig blah blah blah...., may i now expect you to extol the virtues of Norman Finkelsetin or is it just those who criticse the religion you hate that you have time for?

BTW, on a positive note, i have enjoyed our debate, glad it hasn't entered into the usual slagging match.

Regards

[Ulli]

Crusader, your intentions are bad and your obsession to hurt little Israel tells a lot about you.

I remember your former question in this thread:

Is it possible to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic?

 

[MarZutra]

'No, I tarnish Islam. '

And by extension all muslims. For the 4th time, Islam is a faith which you know absolutely nothing about.  Good Lord, read about it before you defend something.  Like Communism and Nazism Islam is a vile expansionist faith.

'What ethnic cleansing? '

Ahh right, now whose being revisionist. it is FACT that Plan Dalet ethnically cleansed large swathes of palestine and attempted to de-arabise Galilee.Enough of this.  You are a brain dead fool.  ARABS WITHIN ISRAEL HAVE MORE FREEDOM AFFORDED TO THEM THAN THE RELIGIOUS AND NATIONALISTIC JEW!  Your ignorance is truely insulting.  You must be a Muslim Nazis Savage to continually be blinded to Muslim human rights violations all over the planet and further defend those who are massacreing your Christian brethren, turning churches in to gabage dumps, mosques or pulling them down.  Go visit Mt. Sinai and you'll see a blatant example of the ancient Orthodox Church which has now been desicrated into a Mosque.  Please...Go...Check for yourself.... 

 'There is nothing comparable to Nazis Germany or Turkish treatment of the Abanians within Israel.'

The history of the nakba would disagree with you. Do you even know what Nakba is?  While not equivalent, one can indeed compare it. One would be a fool to compare Israel's war of independance to that of the Nazi extermination or Muslim extermination of the Albanian Christians.  I have no time for foolishness as this.  I know of no pits in Israel which were dug for the sole desire to lead Arabs by the hundreds to exterminate.  I know know slave camps in Israel for Muslims.  There is not one example of racial extermination program in writing or action today.  Only a fool would make such a benight comparison.  Has your brain actually fallen out from being so "open minded"?

'The Jews were the indigenous peoples of "Palestine" before 1948.'

Ahh so there was only Jews in palestine at the time, nobody else? Were there any Arabians in Israel?  Or "Palestinians" in Judea?  Funny how you never speak of Jordan which is 77% of "Palestine"?  Did you know this or is your hatred of Jews that much so that it blinds you from reality?Were all jews in the world indigenous to palestine at this time? Were All Arabians indigenous to Europe? or even Israel?  What's your point.  You've continually dismissed in your blindness and dumbdown-ness to even exercise self research.  I'm amazed at your closed mindedness...

'the bulk of Arabs came after 1888 to get employment from the Jews who were rebuilding their homelands that they purchased from absentee Turkish and Arab (singular) landlords.'

Read much Joan Peters do we? laughable, really i thought you better than producing this old propaganda. Funny how it is "old propaganda" to which you've never read, amongst other things like the Koran/Hadith to which you further offer factually incorrect and dumbed down opinions.I suggest you burn your copy of 'from time immemorial' as it ranks alongside the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' as infamous frauds. Funny, how does it even compare to the Protocols?  Have you read them or is this just another ill attempt to make another unqualified and benighted comparison between apples and oranges?Arabs and more precisely those non-jews indigenous to palestine ethnically cleansed during the nakba were semitic people. Really, Comparable to the Arab Muslims today in the Sudan to black Christians?  Turkish Muslims against Albanian Christians?  Arab Muslims against Hindus?  Arab Muslims to Christian Greeks?  Turkish Muslims and Greeks? Your screaming at facts here.  You're damn right I'm giving facts to which you are incapable to comprehend let alone bother to look up.   

'Ok, who was in the Holyland first the Christian or the Mohammadan?'

The christian faith, but islam is a religion which spread, islam is not a people. What is your point?  Islam is a faith that, AGAIN, commands the Mohammadan, that is the Muslim, ALL Muslims, to make war against the non-Muslim until the end of days.  You'd know this if you'd actually read the Koran/Hadith....  Boy you're not to bright are you?So christian converts can conquer land but muslim converts can't is that your belief? Not at all.  Your entire arguement is that it is acceptable for the Muslim to conquer the Christians, Hindus, Jews, Zoastars etc. but one is not allowed to fight back and win, especially if it is the Jew and further in reclaimation of their historical homelands....  Are you that indoctrinated that you are really that blinded?

'Care to discuss how Tamerlane's invasion of India'

Tamerlane or more precisely Timur-i-Leng had both turkish and mongol descent. Actually it is Amir Temur/Timur which was a Mohammadan, no matter of what race or ethnic backgroundnow if you know your history you know the mongols only notionally adopted islam as their faith. Perhaps you might care to read Amir Timur's words?

"My principal object in coming to Hindustan.....has been to accomplish two things.  The first was to war with the Infidels, the enemies of the Mohammadan religion; and by this religious warfare to acquire some claim to reward in the life to come.  The other was....that the army of Islam migh might gain something by plundering the wealth and valuables of the infidels; plunder in war is as lawful as their mothers' milk to Musalmans who war for their faith." - Amir Timur, 1398. - K.S. Lal, "Muslims Invade India," in the Legacy of Muslim Rule in India (New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan, 1992. 

Now, I'm sure you're going to cliam that Amir Timur is a liar?

Indeed Tamerlane nearly obliterated the ottoman empire at an early stage. his viciousness had little to do with Islam, Above: ALL ISLAM AND IN THE NAME AND EXAMPLE OF MOHAMMADbut its interesting you try and portray it as such. It is not MY portrait of the example but those of Tamerlanes as well as his own to which he further stated that he killed a hundred thousand infidels alone during his war with Delhi.  He states further that he built "victory pillars" from severd heads at many places....a warning to the infidels against Islam...   You, my friend, are way out of your leage hear.  First you must check your facts and then your sources....  Also you neglect to mention his descendants the Mughals occupied most of india and actually created one of the most religiously tolerant regimes in Islamic history. This has nothing to do with it as the Mongols were not Muslims.  Further, Khubilai Khan's experience with Islam/Moslems, as documented by Marco Polo, and I quote:

"Once listening to a reading from the Koran, he discovered taht it laid a command upon Moslems to kill unbelievers.  Summoning the chief Mullah to him, Khubilai asked if this were so.  The teacher of Islam admitted it.  "And you believe that this Koran has been given to you by G-d?" Khubilai demanded.  The Mullah assented.  "Then why do you not obey its command and slay those who do not believe as you do?"  "Because the time has not come, and because we are unable to do it yet."  "But I am able to do it," Khubilai assured him and orderd the execution of the Mullah."

Persecutions and expulsions of the Mohammadans throughout Cathay followed this confrontation.  So I assume you believe Khubilai Khan, Marco Polo, the Mohammadan Mullah and the Koran itself are lieing considering the exact same is still written within the Koran and the Mohammadan are still making Jihad world wide?  How did you get so brain dead. None of this is new to what I state earlier to which I'm continually adding fact which you can check for yourself, though I highly doubt you will considering you've not checked any thus far.  PS: That quote is in Marco Polo's Diary and also: March of the Barbarians by Harold Lamb page 267.but this obvioulsy doesn't fit with your agenda of painting islam as the devil. Again you make this fcuked up blind statement without even knowing what Islam is?  How can you know what Islam is if You've neither even read the Koran nor Hadith?  Are you that dumb?  Really?  Come on?

Im no fan of Edward Said, never mind the fact he was a Christian anyway. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about him? Anyone would with a functioning brain.  He's a Arabist a propagandist a liar and a fraud.  Who self discribes himself to be a "Christian wrapped in a Muslim culture" Who was a full supporter of Islamic and Pan Arab terrorists and he was nothing more than a stone throwing Arabist savage....

'You too continually over look the fact that the Mohammadan has dozens of states'

And what? Jews cannot have ONE, ONE single tiny little plot to call home, even if it was their homeland for thousands of years prior to Roman invasion...  You are no Christian.  No way can a Christian be this fcuking dumb!  The simple fact is that as a Christian who doesn't even see through the fraud that "Palestine" is not mentioned within the New Testament and further Jesus did not know any "Palestinians".  Back to re-education for you...  G-d this is insulting to anyone with a brain...Are all muslim one people or one ethnic race...what kind of bollox is this? Did I ever say this?  NO I didn't!  Islam is a religion...Just like Christianity and Judaism....Jews are not one people, or race.  Jews are a Nation, a People with a faith called Judaism and a distict culture. Do you think all catholics should live in one country?? No, but you seem to think that Muslims can live and own any lands they wish while the Jew cannot have ONE country of their own.  Are there any electrons firing above your shoulders?  You are now putting words into my mouth....which I did not say nor eluded to.  Your showing the facist side of zionism now, coveting land not yours. Not only can you not read you cannot comprehend what you read as this issue has been fully dealt with about 5 posts ago.Which is what happened in 1948. Oh, here we go again...Dumb dumb Dumb...  Where is your contempt for the Mohammadan/Islamist/"Palestinians" for "Black September" in Jordan or those Maronite Christians like Brigette Gabriel from Www.AmericanCongressForTruth.Com who is an ARAB Christian whose family was massacred as the Moslem hord rolled over once peaceful and CHRISTIAN Lebanon?  G-d it is actually insulting to my intelligence that I sit here and actually respond to your nonsense...

Funny that you mention Ibn Warraqs and his criticism of islam and their societies, but funny also that any jew who criticses the torah or israel is labelled a self-hating anti-semite pig blah blah blah...., because they are.  I'll bet you know nothing about Jews, Judaism and further their history?  It is the exact same situation when you have idiots like Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton with parade Bibles in hand [censored] over Christianty and the true Christians making the exact same comments to their immoral debauchery.  You'd not know this because you know nothing about Christianity.  Further for your enlightenment, should you happen to read the Quran, the same applies to the Muslim/Islam only it is commanded to their deaths...  Go---read---don't believe me---read it for yourself.... may i now expect you to extol the virtues of Norman Finkelsetin or is it just those who criticse the religion you hate that you have time for?Yes, Norman Finkelstein, like Noam Chomsky are disgraces and do irrepairable damage to their own people, culture etc.  The worst attrocities of all times, applicable to any and all religions and socio-political ideologies are caused by those who convert out of their faith into another, in this case from Judiasm to Socialism or Communism.  Further if you will note most persections of the "Dhimmi": Jews and Christians, by the Moslems were initiated and agitated by the ex-Christian and ex-Jew...fact...

BTW, on a positive note, i have enjoyed our debate, glad it hasn't entered into the usual slagging match.
You are most welcome, I just wish you were more open minded and tolerant towards self researching into all of the numerously aforementioned facts of reality and not live in this tragically molested bubble of "useful idiots".  You are right, my arms would probably get tired....although it would have been a good workout

Regards
Regards...  ps: excuse my words of anger....I really don't like being insulted, nor made to be an ignoramus especially if one doesn't take the time to truly challenge my words by looking into their qualifications/sources.

Mar Zutra

PS: The thing that truly chaps my donkey is the fact that no one ever researches into the fact that "Palestine" was never, in this Earth's billions of years of history, an independant functioning country, entity, state or nation.  Therefore there are NO PALESTINIAN PEOPLE....PERIOD!

[Crusader]

'because they are.'
Sums it up really, any Jew who criticise Israel is a self-hater. But people from other faiths can criticise their own faiths and no such condemnation. Why are all the Jews one nation, from the balck ethiopians to the western settlers in Palestine? Can every faith claim this or is judaism special?
You claim because the Palestinians never had a central system of govt or a seat at the UN or league of nations this forgoes their right to nationhood. tell me i suppose you think kenya or Ireland should still be ruled by the british because the same applies? What kind of imperial [censored] mentality is that?

'Funny how you never speak of Jordan which is 77% of "Palestine"?'

hang on i thought palestine didn't exist?

 'Funny how it is "old propaganda"'

Are you suggesting Joan Peters 'From Time Immemorial' is a decent academic work? Serious question.

'Where is your contempt for the Mohammadan/Islamist/"Palestinians" for "Black September"'

This from a guy who denies the Nakba. Where is your contempt for the activities of the irgun or Stern gang, Carmeli brigade et al? the Palestinians learnt terrorism for the white Jewish zionist settlers.

'One would be a fool to compare Israel's war of independance to that of the Nazi extermination or Muslim extermination of the Albanian Christians.'

Everything in the world can be compared, the word your looking for is equivalence. only a fool who seeks to deny history would no compare events.


No harm to you marzunta, but you reiterate the same old lies which has been debunked many times over.

Regards.

[MarZutra]

Funny how everything that one doesn't research for themselves a lie no?

Quite frankly, I'm tired of all the Moslems murdering, raping, robbing, rocketing, bombing my people.  If it comes down to a choice between your "Palestinian" Koranimal friends and my people, I'd not lose any sleep if the entirety of the Islamic, communist and Nazi world was eliminated to the last.

You cannot even entertain base logica.  If one comes to murder you do you wait and bargain?  Offer them flushing toilets?  No you KILL THEM!!

Please don't post to me anymore, I've given you more than an opportunity to pose one logical and factually backed arguement, instead you do nothing but post unfounded ignorance...

[Crusader]

Unfortunately it is you Marzunta who jhas posted debunked lies and it is you who has chosen to denigrate a whole religion with the actions of a few. it is you who advocates the slaughter now of those you disagree with, it is you now who denies the suffering Jews have inflicted on others. Tell me are jews incapable of doing wrong? Are jews incapable of murder, rape, and fascism? it seems from you writing that they are. you seek to condemn the religion of Islam based upon some of its excerpts, are you suggesting the christian bible or the holy jewish scriptures have no such unsavoury elements? please tell me they don't, i'd like to hear that.

You just wrote this...

'If one comes to murder you do you wait and bargain?  Offer them flushing toilets?  No you KILL THEM!!'

how then with a straight face can you condem palestinian violence ?

Also, do you think the british should still rule india or Ireland or kenya?

Also do you think Joan Peters 'From Time Immemorial' is a decent piece of academic study?


it seems these are uncomfortable questions for you?

[q_q_]

<snip>
You just wrote this...

'If one comes to murder you do you wait and bargain?  Offer them flushing toilets?  No you KILL THEM!!'

how then with a straight face can you condem palestinian violence ?
<snip>

regarding this.. 
Although it is easy to show the moral difference between israel's violence and palestinian violence..
It's besides the point

Rabbi Meir Kahane ztl hyd, DID NOT condemn palestinian violence!!!!
He didn't cry to the world "oh, the palestinians as so evil, what they are doing"

Suppose that for whatever reason, somebody is coming to kill me,  and  i'm coming to kill him..
Who do I give priority to?

There's certainly no question that with the palestinians, they give priority to themselves.

This universal idea is a western idea that is propagated beautifully in star trek, but it's certainly not how arabs think.  And I don't think that we should lay down our lives to defend that value..

Unfortunately, jewish hospitals and very I suppose the term may be secular humanist.. They treat everybody, arab and jew, arab terrorist or israeli soldier, with no priority one way or the other.  See brigitte gabriel's interview.
She sees the humanity..  But really it's stupid.. If you're at war. Wars go on forever now because the west has forgotton how to fight wars.

[MarZutra]

Firstly, I'd like to openly apologize for what commentary will follow to all the righteous and moral abiding Jews and Christians, the Mohammadan's don't count so if they are too offended....GOOD!!

q_q_, this Arab dumb dumb has no concept of logic,reasoning or base reading comprehension.  Read some of his posts.. 

Crusader, you have not answered any of my questions, nor looked, researched, checked any of my facts because you're too dumb.  

YES, like Communism, one can paint ALL with the same brush!  You're so fcuking dumb that you cannot even debate let alone read?  You Islamic savage!  You dumb Koranimal!  You know How I know you're a stupid Moslem is because you will not make any comments against your awful murderous contorted faith.  Your "prophet" was a pedophile, a theif, a slave driver and he was so dumb he couldn't even think of anything origional when he dictated the Koran because he couldn't even read or write.  Illiterate dumb dumb....  Imagine, not only stealing subject and persona from the Jewish Bible only to distort them.  Heck Mohammad was so dumb he didn't even realize the 7 Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was a Christian myth.  He couldn't even get that story right..  

You have tried my patience.  I should have known from the beginning you were an Arab Koranimal Savage.  You people are so fcuking stupid that you cannot even understand base 2+2 reasoning.  Thanks for coming out.  I'll make sure JTF sends you a thanks for coming out pin or T-Shirt.  

Perhaps when you return to your turd hole you might take more of your Koranimal friends with you.  The day will come my friend when Ol-Whitey will wake up from his stupor and you bastards will get exactly what's coming to you!  You will get EXACTLY what the Koran/Hadith dictates to do to the Infidel but it WILL be the INFIDEL THAT DOES IT TO YOU!!  PAY BACK WILL BE A BIT-H MY SHORT PECKERED FRIEND!!  Fcuking animal savages!  Perhaps now that your brethren from the "Religion of Pieces" have turned their "Allah Akbars" on China the Communists will roll through the Islamic toilet like the Mongols...  

As your smelly 3 toothed Arabettes say Yallalallalalallalallalalaaa...   How many Moslems are there anyway? 1.2 billion and they've managed to be awarded, what, 8 Nobel Prizes?  Imagine if there were no such thing as "political correctness" or "Affirmative Action" you'd not have any!  

shove off you greasy dumb sand spider.....  Go back and rape your wife and stop [censored] about here...   I'll let you borrow my razor for her back if you'd like?

[Muck DeFuslims]

Now THAT'S how you should have been debating the evil piece of excrement !

Sometimes we like to entertain the notion that we can hone our debating skills by debating moooozies and their sympathizers; Or that we might even convince a moooozie that mohamhead was a filthy, illiterate, pedophile, thief, mass murderer, lying, scumbag and Islam is nothing more than a reflection of ole mo.  Alas, this is a fallacy.

Debating moooozies is a total and complete waste of time.

You're better off trying to explain to a rabbit why we only see one side of the moon.

It's impossible to rationally deal with irrational people. And nothing can be more irrational than to witness the unending, relentless, daily carnage moooozies perpetrate in the name of Islam and yet still have morons like Crusader defend the Koranimal cult of death and despair.

That being said, the plethora of information and depth of the knowledge you exhibited in this 'debate' was quite impressive, Marzutra. Unfortunately, it was wasted on the brain dead Crusader, but enlightening to those with functioning neurons.

Keep up the good work.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Most jews in the world today have no genetic link to the middle east, so how can they be coming home?
there was a small number of indigenous jews in Palestine prior to 1948. they have a right to be there. White settlers are just colonizing a land they have no link to except there religion was founded there. Are you suggesting as a chrisitian i have a right to invade palestine as well because christianity was founded there?

Give it up, Mr. White Settler. You are obviously a White Nationalist troll from Whorefront.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

'No, I tarnish Islam. '

And by extension all muslims.

Not true.   Only those muslims who follow the nazi religion Islam authentically.   Because its the (false) religion Islam that is the problem.   Of course any Muslims who authentically follow that satanic nonsense are also the problem.   But of course one must admit, not all "muslims" do follow it authentically.   But hundreds of millions do and they certainly hate Jews as their religion commands them to.

[Crusader]

'Give it up, Mr. White Settler.'

Im a european, ive not settled anywhere. unlike the zionists in land which they stole.

'Crusader, you have not answered any of my questions'

on the contrary i have, it is you who avoids the difficult questions colonist.


how then with a straight face can you condem palestinian violence ? - not answered

Also, do you think the british should still rule india or Ireland or kenya? - not answered

Also do you think Joan Peters 'From Time Immemorial' is a decent piece of academic study? - not answered

Fond of not answering yourself aren't you colonist?








'You know How I know you're a stupid Moslem is because you will not make any comments against yourawful murderous contorted faith.'


Actually im a white catholic. but hey, that attitude your displaying reminds me of a small man in with a moustache in germany in the 30s.

'The day will come my friend when Ol-Whitey will wake up from his stupor and you bastards will get exactly what's coming to you!'





Again quite a nazi statement, don't you think?


'Although it is easy to show the moral difference between israel's violence and palestinian violence..
It's besides the point'

yes it is Palestinians have a moral right to take that which forcibly taken from them. Jewish settler violence was facist, not moral at all.


'Suppose that for whatever reason, somebody is coming to kill me,  and  i'm coming to kill him..
Who do I give priority to?'

Ahh but it was the whit jewish colonists who came to kill and ethnically cleanse the palestinians in 1948


'Unfortunately, jewish hospitals and very I suppose the term may be secular humanist.. They treat everybody, arab and jew, arab terrorist or israeli soldier, with no priority one way or the other.'


Really? do you even read the news?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/04/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1



'I'd not lose any sleep if the entirety of the Islamic, communist and Nazi world was eliminated to the last.'

Hitler didn't lose much sleep over his attempt to wipe out all the Jews did he? Seems you have something in common.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

'I'd not lose any sleep if the entirety of the Islamic, communist and Nazi world was eliminated to the last.'

Hitler didn't lose much sleep over his attempt to wipe out all the Jews did he? Seems you have something in common.

Why are you such an imbecile?   This is the most childish remark I've seen in a long time.

He won't lost much sleep.     -  Hitler didn't lose much sleep when he killed the Jews.

He has a favorite color           -  Hitler had a favorite color when he killed the Jews.

He hates something               -  Hitler hated something when he killed the Jews.




STOP COMPARING JEWS TO HITLER YOU SICK FREAK.

[Crusader]

Im not comparing all jews to hitler, just those zionists who stole land not their own, like hitler, who ethnically cleansed areas of land, like Hitler, who believe a people or a religion to be inferior than their own, like Hitler, who would like to see those people wiped out, like Hitler....thse views are here for all to see, so zionists may not like to admit but it is facist just like Nazism was.

[Ulli]

Im not comparing all jews to hitler, just those zionists who stole land not their own, like hitler, who ethnically cleansed areas of land, like Hitler, who believe a people or a religion to be inferior than their own, like Hitler, who would like to see those people wiped out, like Hitler....thse views are here for all to see, so zionists may not like to admit but it is facist just like Nazism was.

I think this is your last post here. 

[Shlomo]

Im not comparing all jews to hitler, just those zionists who stole land not their own, like hitler, who ethnically cleansed areas of land, like Hitler, who believe a people or a religion to be inferior than their own, like Hitler, who would like to see those people wiped out, like Hitler....thse views are here for all to see, so zionists may not like to admit but it is facist just like Nazism was.

You show an incredible amount of ignorance. There is not even any comparison. For one, the muslims there are actually aligned with hitler and call for the extermination of all Jews. You can actually see them execute the nazi salute where they claimed hitler never "finshed the job".

You are a fool and your argument is a joke.

You are banned.

[Ulli]

Im not comparing all jews to hitler, just those zionists who stole land not their own, like hitler, who ethnically cleansed areas of land, like Hitler, who believe a people or a religion to be inferior than their own, like Hitler, who would like to see those people wiped out, like Hitler....thse views are here for all to see, so zionists may not like to admit but it is facist just like Nazism was.

You show an incredible amount of ignorance. There is not even any comparison. For one, the muslims there are actually aligned with hitler and call for the extermination of all Jews. You can actually see them execute the nazi salute where they claimed hitler never "finshed the job".

You are a fool and your argument is a joke.

You are banned.

Thank you Shlomo 

[Rubystars]

With a name like "Crusader" you know he has to be an anti-Semite.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[MarZutra]

Thank you Shlomo.  In the beginning this fellow started an actual debate.  Sadly, he cannot even hold a logical thought.  He'd of made a great punching bag.   

I'll bet he's another product of European Anti-American/Anti-Jew "progressive" education?

Funny, I was reading up on Afghanistan on Wikipedia and they have the audacity to state: The region of Afghanistan became the center of various important empires, including that of the Samanids (875–999), Ghaznavids (977–1187), Seljukids (1037–1194), Ghurids (1149–1212), and Timurids (1370–1506). Among them, the periods of Ghaznavids[44] of Ghazni, and Timurids[45] of Heart are considered as some of the most brilliant eras of Afghanistan's history.

But no mention on HOW the Mohammadan conquered the area nor why.  This is the distortions and wilfully benighted agenda pushing, akin to promulgating this fabrication of a "Golden Age of Islam" and contorting Islam into something it is not.  Wikipedia, Google and mainstream Establishment media know full well that their viewers are dumbed-down lazy sons of [censored] that don't have the, and few will ever take the, initive to actually read the Koran/Hadith, Islamic history let alone their own.

This crusader was a fool.  I actually challenge anyone on this forum to go back through my posts and tell me where I've A. Lied or B. never attempted to answer this [censored] questions.  Ah, nevermind, I'm just venting....  My apologies...

[Lisa]

It looks like that troll RepublicanStones returned to do more trolling as Crusader.  Luckily Shlomo banned him.