Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
muman613:
Tag, I just backed you up on that youtube page... I hope this doesn't start another week-long argument...
--- Quote ---You are so messed up. The Sabbath is the Seventh Day, the day Hashem created in order to bring REST to the world. We will never bow to a G-d of flesh and blood, neither one of wood and stone. G-d commanded what is done concerning the false prophet, and warned us against the likes of your phony-baloney. G-d never commanded we worship a man, just the opposite. The redeemer will come and destroy all those who believe in flesh and blood.
--- End quote ---
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: Ephraim on October 21, 2012, 05:32:16 PM --- I totally believe in these near death experiences! How do people all over the world throughout time have the same experiences? Where did the story come from, it had to come from somewhere, so at the least it has happened once. I have even heard of people having these experiences without a near death experience. Are they all lying?
--- End quote ---
Soo do I, but people can very well twist these things for their own purposes. I have heard these "stories" from different groups as well all claiming that their version and their religion is true etc.
My point is that not to follow someone blindly even if they have a great story (supposedly). We need to use our Sehel
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 21, 2012, 03:19:43 PM ---Shalom KWRBT,
I do not deny that there are those who believe these things. I have addressed this before and I will say it again here. I have discussed this issue with my Rabbis and it concerned me greatly. It is my belief that Moshiach will come, and it may be soon, but I am sure that he has not already arrived and died.
The question then is this. What do we do about those who do believe these things? I am sure that my personal Rabbis, and I have a good relation with three Chabad Rabbis at this time, do not believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
--- End quote ---
And therefore your point is what? That your 3 chabad rabbis do not need to hear from tag? Great but many people read this forum, not just your 3 chabad rabbis.
--- Quote ---Those who are saying things which run against the more rational teachings of the Torah must be silenced gently.
--- End quote ---
. Its not a question of rational vs mystical. If someone is praying to a dead rebbe or asking questions to him and expecting answers they are committing averahs plain and simple. Nothing to do with legitimate rationalism vs mysticism debates. It's way over the line and beyond the pale.
--- Quote --- What am I saying here? Only that we should point out their error without being cruel or arrogant in our rebuke. Isn't it taught that we should only rebuke our brothers and sisters if they will be willing to listen to the rebuke, and how to ensure this, to not be unfair in judgement?
--- End quote ---
Pointing out that something is avoda zarra is not a form of arrogance.
You seem to think that anyone who mentions or disputes the insane claims of chabad meshichists are being arrogant or wrong in doing so. On the contrary, such a person is clarifying what Judaism is and is not.
Do you also believe chazal erred in insulting the minim?
--- Quote ---As I stated above, my issue with this whole thread is primarily the appearance that only Chabad and Chassidut were the ones engaging in these practices. While I pointed out that there are similar things which the Sephardic Jews do and yet I see little criticism of such practices.
--- End quote ---
The vast numbers of chabad meshichists incriminate themselves. However it is equally wrong no matter who does it. But again consider the numbers. Its chabad meshichists who pull out a sefer of the rebbe ask it a question then open to a random page and get an "answer." Etc. They are a sizable group.
--- Quote ---Having made these points I would also like to point out that I am not 'obstructing' or 'attempting to prevent discussion', I am simply trying to make clear that these threads seem overly judgmental of the Ashkenazi Jews often giving few examples of non-Ashkenazi Jewry.
--- End quote ---
It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with beliefs. Your response in turning it into a race thing reflects insecurity but there is no need for this. Nobody is attacking your ethnic group.
--- Quote ---
Aside from that I said I agree that TALKING or PRAYING to the dead is forbidden by the Torah. As I also posted there is Talmudic evidence that praying in the merit of a tzadik is permitted.
--- End quote ---
Then I really don't get what your problem is. Like I said, why can't the obvious be stated?
(And keep in mind what's obvious to u isn't obvious to everyone).
muman613:
KWRBT,
I appreciate your reply and hope to be able to explain why I am involved in this discussion.
You may disagree with what I say, and that is OK, just please try to understand why I am saying this.
1) I believe that rebuke should be directed to those who need to hear it. This is one of the first rules of rebuke.
2) I believe that rebuke should be done between two Jews, not in the public, and not in a manner intended to be humiliating or shameful.
3) I believe that speaking of fellow Jews in a public forum, without allowing the other Jew to explain himself, is a form of Lashon Hara. Now you will argue about what is Lashon Hara, but I have studied the laws, and only in the most obvious cases of heresy or self-hatred, is it permitted to openly speak derogatorily of another Jew.
Do you believe that these are Jews? I do... When I read some kook on youtube who started to deface my youtube page claiming that Chassidic Jews are not Jews, and that all Chassidic Jews pray to their rebbe, I thought to myself who was this punk to decide who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. A Jew is born a Jew if his mother was a Jew, by birth or through a legitimate conversion. What the Jew believes does not ultimately decide whether he is a Jew, because this aspect of the Soul remains regardless of whether he is secular , religious, or believes in the tooth fairy.
What is my purpose KWRBT? I will tell you what I envision my real purpose in life, and my involvement with JTF...
I would like to help bring Moshiach. I believe that through Jewish unity we can actually help hasten the arrival of Moshiach. While some may think this is just talk, I do take every chance to help every Jew I can help, through money and through time, and I believe that we need to work together to bring us to put our entire faith in Hashem.
As I said, I do not excuse the false beliefs that some of these Jews express. And I doubt that my rebuke alone will bring about any Teshuva. But I am now inspired to ask that Alon personally via a comment on youtube to explain to a fellow Jew what his reasoning is considering the prohibition of consulting the dead. I do not understand why Tag was banned from his page, except for maybe he was not asking in a way which seemed sincere, without a pre-judgement.
Do not have any anger at me for my Ahavat Yisroel. I really think that we have something going on here, and I always take your opinions to heart.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 22, 2012, 01:56:46 AM ---KWRBT,
I appreciate your reply and hope to be able to explain why I am involved in this discussion.
You may disagree with what I say, and that is OK, just please try to understand why I am saying this.
1) I believe that rebuke should be directed to those who need to hear it. This is one of the first rules of rebuke.
2) I believe that rebuke should be done between two Jews, not in the public, and not in a manner intended to be humiliating or shameful.
3) I believe that speaking of fellow Jews in a public forum, without allowing the other Jew to explain himself, is a form of Lashon Hara. Now you will argue about what is Lashon Hara, but I have studied the laws, and only in the most obvious cases of heresy or self-hatred, is it permitted to openly speak derogatorily of another Jew.
--- End quote ---
This is all totally absurd.
Whom did I rebuke?
When you put up an informative article about Sukkot or the laws of Shabbat, are you rebuking someone? In my opinion, you are not, and it wouldn't make sense to rebuke people here. The point of this section of the forum is to inform people about what Judaism is (and contrarily, also what Judaism is not!).
Am I supposed to chase after every single Chabad meshichist (there are thousands of them!) and take each one aside individually and say to him why it is wrong to pray to his dead rebbe? Like that's humanly possible? And like any of the cultists will listen to me? And otherwise, I can't dare mention that they exist or what crazy beliefs they are promoting to warn people against falling for their tricks and mistakes? Please.
Instead, what I am interested in is not rebuking chabad people (meshichists or otherwise) or standing on a pulpit like I am "holier than thou" since I do not view myself that way, but instead to contribute to this section of the forum, whose goal (or so I thought) is to INFORM JEWS ABOUT JUDAISM.
Informing Jews about Judaism INCLUDES stressing fundamental beliefs (even if YOU muman613 think those fundamental beliefs are so obvious as to be self-evident - they still need to be said) and also discouraging certain cults and idol worship beliefs or mistakes that draw some Jews astray. For example, we openly refute and denigrate "Jews for Yeshu." Any cult which leads Jews astray is a terrible danger to the Jewish soul and to the Jewish people as a whole since we suffer when potentially good individual Jews go astray and follow foreign beliefs and foreign religions.
Furthermore, I want to stress right now that CHAZAL cursed the minim. In fact they instituted in our prayers to curse minim every weekday, three times a day. Minim do not have a right to defend themselves or explain themselves. Foreign cults which lead Jews astray are not a legitimate side of a "debate" - they are beyond the pale.
I will say it again: Minim were not given the "right" to explain themselves in response to the Amidah which curses them thrice daily.
If you are not aware of what the minim were, please look it up!
--- Quote ---Do you believe that these are Jews? I do... When I read some kook on youtube who started to deface my youtube page claiming that Chassidic Jews are not Jews, and that all Chassidic Jews pray to their rebbe, I thought to myself who was this punk to decide who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. A Jew is born a Jew if his mother was a Jew, by birth or through a legitimate conversion. What the Jew believes does not ultimately decide whether he is a Jew, because this aspect of the Soul remains regardless of whether he is secular , religious, or believes in the tooth fairy.
--- End quote ---
Not sure how this is relevant. I never debated what a Jew is or is not.
--- Quote ---As I said, I do not excuse the false beliefs that some of these Jews express. And I doubt that my rebuke alone will bring about any Teshuva. But I am now inspired to ask that Alon personally via a comment on youtube to explain to a fellow Jew what his reasoning is considering the prohibition of consulting the dead. I do not understand why Tag was banned from his page, except for maybe he was not asking in a way which seemed sincere, without a pre-judgement.
--- End quote ---
Or maybe the simpler explanation - A person who is distorting Judaism will not allow his beliefs to be questioned publicly. That is almost always the reason someone bans another person from responding!
--- Quote ---Do not have any anger at me for my Ahavat Yisroel. I really think that we have something going on here, and I always take your opinions to heart.
--- End quote ---
I have no anger at you whatsoever.
Now I ask you for a third time, if what Tag is saying here is obvious according to you (you used that word to describe it), then WHY CAN'T THE OBVIOUS BE STATED HERE? Do we censor the Torah because certain obvious/basic principles are not comfortable for certain people? That is outrageous.
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