jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.

To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life.  The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments.  G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing.  It is all for our own sake.  So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.

When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different.  There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them.  In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings. 

In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.

this arguments are what the wicked reformers have said. Fanaticism? give me 1 example that is "fanatic" of what I have posted, if you concider it fanatic then you concider the Talmud fanatic?

[JewishTeddyBear]

tzvi is a wicked fanatic

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

tzvi is a wicked fanatic

those who cant argue- defame.

[jdl4ever]

Most of what Tzvi posted is in accordance with Orthodox Judaism although he is too offensive to other posters at times including on this thread and therefore could set a better example of Judaism to the other members on this forum by being respectful and judging others favorably.   

Violating the Sabbath is a grave sin for a Jew, however it is not worse then murder, murder is worse than violating the Sabbath for one is permitted to violate the Sabbath if one's life is in danger but one is forbidden from murdering someone if one's life is in danger.  Thejewishteddybear's argument is not in accordance with Orthodox judaism since it is against the Bible.  The Bible says that one who purposely violates the Sabbath (and as the Rabbis clarify being fully aware with warning and with witnesses) is liable to stoning therefore any argument that seems logical but is against the Bible is inherently not logical and you can easily find the fault in the argument you just presented.  Although G-d himself does not need us to fulfill his commandments for his own benefit as he is eternal and does not need us, rather it is for our benefit to emulate G-d since G-d's glory is the ultimate reward, he requires us to do his will wholeheartedly without question.  Just as one would follow a mortal King without question, certainly one should follow the One most high. 

[JewishTeddyBear]

tzvi defames

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

tzvi defames

If I have needlesly offended someone- Im sorry, but I dont see how I have written something offensive- if I have please directly point it out (here or P.M.)

[kahaneloyalist]

tzvi is a wicked fanatic

All those who believe in the Torah rather then Western systems of (im)morality are considered fanatics, but remember that both Chaim and Rabbi Kahane zt'l would be in the same camp. As would I, though I am not equal to either of them.

The Torah, and Judaism says Hashem's word is absolute, even when we in our limited intellect cant understand the why, we are still required to fufill Hashem's Mitzvot. So while we may not understand why Hashem commands death for breaking Shabbat, that is really too bad.

Thank you Tzvi for defending the Torah in this argument.

[Dr. Dan]

There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.

To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life.  The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments.  G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing.  It is all for our own sake.  So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.

When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different.  There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them.  In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings. 

In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.

JTB, look at my ask jtf comment/question for tomorrow..I pretty much address these things but in a different way than I am expressing here to Tzvi and to a lesser extent, Rivera.

[JewishTeddyBear]

When is the last time you heard of a Jew being stoned to death for violating the Sabbath?  There is a good reason for why such a thing has not taken place for a very long time, and it has little to do with us not having the Holy Temple in Jerusalem.  The Talmudic Rabbis put so many conditions on when a Jew can truly be stoned to death for violating the Sabbath, that it was rarely, if ever done.

The real reason why such a penalty for Sabbath violation is stated in the first place, is NOT so that people can go around killing people in the name of religion, but rather to set up a standard for how serious the violation of Sabbath is. 

When I get into discussions about Jewish law, I am quite serious about representing our traditions accurately.  Only when I specifically state otherwise, as I did in regard to the idolatry-adultery vs dying question, do I mean to represent my personal views rather than Torah views.

I 100% guarantee that any Rabbi worth his title, would absolutely oppose stoning ANY Jew to death who has violated the Sabbath.  And, they would definitely agree with my assessment that human life is valued a whole lot more in Jewish law than is keeping the Sabbath.

Never forget that we are Jews, not moslems!  There are people in here who seem awfully anxious to make Judaism sound as much like Islam as possible, which is pretty ironic for a website devoted in part to combating islamofascist terrorism.

[Rivera]

There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.

To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life.  The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments.  G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing.  It is all for our own sake.  So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.

When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different.  There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them.  In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings. 

In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.

this arguments are what the wicked reformers have said. Fanaticism? give me 1 example that is "fanatic" of what I have posted, if you concider it fanatic then you concider the Talmud fanatic?

Tziv you are right! In Isaiah 56:6-7 it says. AND THE FOREIGNERS WHO JOIN THEMSELVES TO HASHEM TO SERVE HIM AND TO LOVE THE NAME OF HASHEM TO BECOME SERVANTS UNTO HIM, ALL WHO GUARD THE SABBATH AGAINST DESECRATION, AND GRASP MY COVENANT TIGHTLY- I WILL BRING THEM TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, AND I WILL GLADDEN THEM IN MY HOUSE OF PRAYER; THEIR ELEVATION OFFERINGS AND THEIR FEAST OFFERINGS WILL FIND FAVOR ON MY ALTAR, FOR MY HOUSE WILL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE PEOPLES.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yes, we are Jews not Muslims, but also not Americans, not Greeks, not Christians, not any other people, religion or cult. Since we are Jews we have to find our true identity and Laws we have to follow and keep them, and not make excuses for any of the laws, but ask G-d for forgiveness and work hard towards completing what G-d wants from us. Our identity doesnt come from not being musim, etc. etc. Our identity if our mission, laws and truth of G-d and what He wants us to do.

[Dr. Dan]

dont worry i dont take it personally, Im not arguing for the sake of arguing but pointing out the importance of keeping Shabb-t. you are right IF in the situation of killing someone or breaking Shabb-t you have to break Shabb-t, but ask yourself did you come to that situation this Shabb-t? if yes then the next Shabb-t? and every Shabb-t people come across that situation? about my comment I heard Rav Mizrahi (divineinformation.com ) say that a breaker Shabb-t in some instances is worse then a murderer, ex- even a murderer can be counted in a minyan, a Shabb-t desecrator cannot. ETC, ETC.
 Okay lets say murder is worse (anyway im not arguing for murder), is it still okay to break Shabb-t and even more publically go on a forum, making and showing that an individual doesnt care about making big sins and does it publically with no shame? - also risking losing their share in the world to come and having (G-d forbid) NO PLACE IN THE WORLD TO COME? - tell me honestly is it worth it? Take it to heart brother.

Tzvi, don't worry, you're still my brother and I still love you even when i disagree wtih you because I know we disagree on certain things for the sake of loving eachother as a brother should..

I will say this on a separate note not compairing murdering...I do think it is wrong to purposely and be rebellous against Shabbat as one might proclaim, "oh, what is Gd goign to do to me know, I'm breaking Sabbath..ha ha ha ha." I agree that anyone who chooses to break a commandment ON PURPOSE in order to be rebellious is committing a grave sin even if he/she is "following 612 other commandments."  It's wrong to do these things on purpose.

Now, on rules made by wise men inspired by Gd, blessed be their memories, and the fences built around the Torah as described in Mishna, Talmud etc...Here is where I often pause and balk at certain rules that are man made and fences and rules which I dont' follow because i wasn't raised with them and not about to follow jsut because someone said so no matter how wise he was. I am, perhaps, rebelling against my father or teacher in this situation. But am i rebelling because I do not honor him/them? Or is it because I need to go and learn Torah in a different way than he/they did?  The Torah rules don't change, but the world does change.  And if my goal is to learn Torah differently from my father albiet with his insipiration, according to Halakha, he shouldn't stop me.

therefore, if i'm rebelling against these wise men an do the opposite to prove a point, I am dishonoring my against my fathers.  However, if I'm questioning and disagreeing and finding answers so that I can be as inspired as they were in their day, then I can't be diong something wrong.

(I know it's a stretch...but eh, I'm working on it...at this point, these wise men inspired by Gd blessed be their memories, talked about Torah in such a way that "it was beautiful to my brain as classical music is beautiful to our ears and certain pieces of art are pleasing to our eyes.")

[Dr. Dan]

tzvi is a wicked fanatic

JTB, Tzvi says these things because he loves all Jews too much. and for that, I love him too...it's not nice to put him down like that.

[JewishTeddyBear]

G-d definitely does not want us Jews to run around murdering other Jews, particularly not in G-d's name.  To suggest otherwise is to be about as antithetical to what Judaism is all about as one can be. 

The way to get a Jew to keep the Sabbath is by inviting him to your home for a nice Sabbath meal, where he can enjoy the delicious kosher food, sing beautiful Sabbath songs, witness wholesome religious Jewish families, and hear words of Torah from people seated around the Sabbath table.

Conversely, the way to turn a Jew into a self-hating Jewish antisemite, is to tell him that you will murder him if he dares violate any of the Sabbath laws.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Anyone who doesnt understand right now the importance of Shabb-t, I cant personally blame you, but its my job (and every other Jews) to point out to you the importance and the seriousness of the Mitzvot. I highly recomend everyone including myself to learn more Torah and take it to heart.

if you need some good websites heres a few (need more or something specific pm me please).

http://www.israel613.com/
divininformation.com
Kolyakov.org

[JewishTeddyBear]

It is tzvi who is putting down basically all Jews, since there is no Jew so righteous that he never sins.  Judaism is about valuing and enhancing life, not about using it as excuse to murder one's fellow Jews.  Again, we are Jews, not moslems.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

It is tzvi who is putting down basically all Jews, since there is no Jew so righteous that he never sins.  Judaism is about valuing and enhancing life, not about using it as excuse to murder one's fellow Jews.  Again, we are Jews, not moslems.

Where did you get the notion that I advocated murder 

[JewishTeddyBear]

Your ears should hear what your mouth is saying.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Your ears should hear what your mouth is saying.

that means you have no quote?

[JewishTeddyBear]

Could it be that tzvi is starting to wake up and realize that all this time he has been advocating death for just about every Jew still alive?

nahhh....he is just looking for another means by which he can use his misunderstanding of Judaism to give himself a false sense of superiority over his fellow human beings.

[Dr. Dan]

Could it be that tzvi is starting to wake up and realize that all this time he has been advocating death for just about every Jew still alive?

nahhh....he is just looking for another means by which he can use his misunderstanding of Judaism to give himself a false sense of superiority over his fellow human beings.

see now, JTB, you're not saying the right thing.  One thing that is anti-Torah is stripping away someone's dignity. It's not nice.

I think I understand Tzvi now. I know why he says what he says. It's not out of malice, superiority, or self righteousness. It's out of love. I have no doubt about that. I disagree with him, however, i know his heart is in the right place..I suggest you first look for that in Tzvi before you continue defaming him and coming up with one line zingers which are fruitless.

[JewishTeddyBear]

tzvi is showing anything but love for the Jewish people.  On the contrary, he is showing hate, advocating murdering any Jew who does not keep the Sabbath, which basically describes all Jews, since there is no Jew who is so righteous that he never sins.  I hardly think it worth anybody's time and energy to defend such a hater of his own people.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

tzvi is showing anything but love for the Jewish people.  On the contrary, he is showing hate, advocating murdering any Jew who does not keep the Sabbath, which basically describes all Jews, since there is no Jew who is so righteous that he never sins.  I hardly think it worth anybody's time and energy to defend such a hater of his own people.

if you actually belive what you have posted then please bring a quote that I have said that suggests me saying that Jews should be murdered. Anyway I want to thank you for making me learn more about the Holiness of Shabb-t and review and remind myself.

[Dr. Dan]

tzvi is showing anything but love for the Jewish people.  On the contrary, he is showing hate, advocating murdering any Jew who does not keep the Sabbath, which basically describes all Jews, since there is no Jew who is so righteous that he never sins.  I hardly think it worth anybody's time and energy to defend such a hater of his own people.

He's not advocating murdering Jews who violate the Sabbath.  

Besides, the right way to approach someone who actually does feel that way or comes off to feel that way is to rebuke him...to return the very love the other person is giving you.

[JewishTeddyBear]

I pull no punches against anybody using any justification to murder my fellow Jews.  My whole outlook on life stems from the inherent value I put on human life, especially Jewish lives.