JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ari on January 13, 2008, 03:22:07 PM
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It seems like a lot of people like this expression, but when I see the cruelty and huge disparities in the world I often wonder. I have also noticed that a lot of people that say this are often very priviledged. Any thoughts?
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Nothing in this world is random, im listining about this RIGHT NOW, of which is also not random.
Take a look at it, you would like it.
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_wallerstein.html
11/28/07 SOLD! - Ohr Naava
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Great link. Thanks Tzvi.
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A reason as in a cause?
Or a purposeful reason, good or bad?
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Good question, Sarah. Both I guess, but probably more the latter.
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Some people say that with suffering, comes also a relief....maybe not in this life but for those who deserve it certainly in the after-life.
The reason to peoples suffering, if caused by moral evil is usually in compensation for the pleasure of other people. Like in Africa, there are starving people, whilst the rich government officials banquet with the money they've stolen from their people. Whereas, with a natural disaster, it could be God's reason which we shouldn't always try to determine....well I don't think. Sometimes people say that God is punishing others through natural disasters but only He knows, unless we have been told, like from previous stories of the past in revelations.
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I personally don't like or agree with the expression that everything happens "for" a reason. I believe that everything happens "because" of a reason. In this world, effect follows cause, thus things happening "because" of a reason. When someone says things happen "for" a reason, to me that sounds like it's saying that cause follows effect and that whatever situation occurred was predestined to occur and that the "reason" for that happening lies somewhere in the future and has yet to be revealed. Even though it sounds kind of nice and mushy on a spiritual or metaphysical level, it doesn't seem to make much sense on a realistic or rational level. When something unforuntate happens which is eventually followed by something positive happening, someone might say, "Aha! Ya see? That's the 'reason' this previous unfortunate situation must have happened!" But in reality, that's not the reason, that's just merely the effect.
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Though thinking about it.....people mean theres a reason to everything, in the context of it being purposefull good. God has his reasons, apart from that, thats probably why we get sins, because we do bad things without sufficient reason. So the expression isn't that valid, is it?
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Though thinking about it.....people mean theres a reason to everything, in the context of it being purposefull good. G-d has his reasons, apart from that, thats probably why we get sins, because we do bad things without sufficient reason. So the expression isn't that valid, is it?
I don't think that everything happens because of G-d. I think certain things happen for no rational reason. If a family member suddenly dies of an illness, I don't think it's the working of G-d. There are just some things that happen in life that are beyond our control and don't have any rhyme or reason behind it.
For example, several years ago, my aunt tragically passed away from a sudden bout of a rare form of deadly pneumonia. My uncle has met a wonderful lady now and is now planning on marrying her in another couple of months. Now someone who believes in the old adage of "Everything happening for a reason" might say that my uncle's future wife is the "reason" why his previous wife passed away. But I don't see it that way. I see it that the "reason" why my aunt died was that she contracted a deadly form of pneumonia, period, and that my uncle's future wife is the "effect" of my aunt passing away, and NOT the "reason." That's my take anyway.
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Everything happens becuase of G-d. G-d has to approve everything, even something tiny, how much more soo when someone dies. BUT maybe you can counter argue and say that G-d took away his chein currently, so what happens (the bad expecially) is because G-d's grace isn't currently upon us (to a large extent, like its supposed to be and will be in the near Future when we merit it).
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i believe random but different perspective.
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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction-Newton's 3rd law.
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yes definitely.
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It seems like a lot of people like this expression, but when I see the cruelty and huge disparities in the world I often wonder. I have also noticed that a lot of people that say this are often very priviledged. Any thoughts?
Well...we have to be careful how we characterize a "random" event for happening for a specific reason. I say that things do happen for a reason, but to stay away from what that reason is...you can speculate...but you shouldn't say that A led to B. Like for example, Katrina happened because the blacks there were evil and we gave land to the palestinians...We can speculate it..but we cannot say that it happened for sure.
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I personally don't like or agree with the expression that everything happens "for" a reason. I believe that everything happens "because" of a reason. In this world, effect follows cause, thus things happening "because" of a reason. When someone says things happen "for" a reason, to me that sounds like it's saying that cause follows effect and that whatever situation occurred was predestined to occur and that the "reason" for that happening lies somewhere in the future and has yet to be revealed. Even though it sounds kind of nice and mushy on a spiritual or metaphysical level, it doesn't seem to make much sense on a realistic or rational level. When something unforuntate happens which is eventually followed by something positive happening, someone might say, "Aha! Ya see? That's the 'reason' this previous unfortunate situation must have happened!" But in reality, that's not the reason, that's just merely the effect.
I disagree to a certain affect. Your logic is correct..Things to happen because of a reason.
but sometimes, someone young and close to you, Gd forbid dies...and not because they were careless or did drugs or anything terrible..it just happened because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. However...i do believe that there is as future reason for that happening...yes, it does add the mushy factor to let go and accept it happening...but it does move you forward and put a betetr perspective of life, hopefully.
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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction-Newton's 3rd law.
That is true, yet is the converse of this statement true? For every reaction, is there an equal and opposite action?
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It seems like a lot of people like this expression, but when I see the cruelty and huge disparities in the world I often wonder. I have also noticed that a lot of people that say this are often very priviledged. Any thoughts?
Well...we have to be careful how we characterize a "random" event for happening for a specific reason. I say that things do happen for a reason, but to stay away from what that reason is...you can speculate...but you shouldn't say that A led to B. Like for example, Katrina happened because the blacks there were evil and we gave land to the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis...We can speculate it..but we cannot say that it happened for sure.
We maybe no, but when people are close to the Torah and also "are connected", then when someone like that says something then its worth believing. Anyway each Jewish individual is supposed to have that level of Emuna where one sees the happenings of his/her sorroundings and even more so global events as messages from G-d to him. (but before that one has to have the lower and middle levels of Emuna- Believing in G-d's prodidence that everything happens for a reason, their is no punishment without sin and that G-d does things for your ultimate good- Check "the Garden Of Emuna" where the Whole boook is about Emuna).
Back to Katrina- Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and other Gedolim said what they did because threw the Torah and understanding of what the people their were doing (everyone knows the type of city new Orleans was) they were able to piece everything together.
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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction-Newton's 3rd law.
That is true, yet is the converse of this statement true? For every reaction, is there an equal and opposite action?
Sure, if reactions are considered 'actions'. If not, then no.
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It seems like a lot of people like this expression, but when I see the cruelty and huge disparities in the world I often wonder. I have also noticed that a lot of people that say this are often very priviledged. Any thoughts?
Well...we have to be careful how we characterize a "random" event for happening for a specific reason. I say that things do happen for a reason, but to stay away from what that reason is...you can speculate...but you shouldn't say that A led to B. Like for example, Katrina happened because the blacks there were evil and we gave land to the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis...We can speculate it..but we cannot say that it happened for sure.
We maybe no, but when people are close to the Torah and also "are connected", then when someone like that says something then its worth believing. Anyway each Jewish individual is supposed to have that level of Emuna where one sees the happenings of his/her sorroundings and even more so global events as messages from G-d to him. (but before that one has to have the lower and middle levels of Emuna- Believing in G-d's prodidence that everything happens for a reason, their is no punishment without sin and that G-d does things for your ultimate good- Check "the Garden Of Emuna" where the Whole boook is about Emuna).
Back to Katrina- Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and other Gedolim said what they did because threw the Torah and understanding of what the people their were doing (everyone knows the type of city new Orleans was) they were able to piece everything together.
Maimonedes wouldnt' have accepted that though...it's a very unJewish way of thinking.
I can say, on the other hand, that evil people will be blind towards the poor levees...and thus by not repairing them or considering the downfall of a terrible hurricane, ended up getting their just medicine
However, i think it quite messed up to tell a father burying his child due to katrina that Gd did this because the people of New Orleans were evil..that is sooo cold and callous! You would say the same thing about the 1.5 million children that were murdered during the Shoah? Come on! that's messed up! I strongly disagree with Rabbi Ovadia yosef and the other Gedolim who say such cold things like that...where is the compassion?!
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It seems like a lot of people like this expression, but when I see the cruelty and huge disparities in the world I often wonder. I have also noticed that a lot of people that say this are often very priviledged. Any thoughts?
You need something to compare too, without light how would you know darkness, without loss how would you know life.
Everything is balanced, and having a greater faith beyond human understanding helps people to cope with their daily lives.
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It seems like a lot of people like this expression, but when I see the cruelty and huge disparities in the world I often wonder. I have also noticed that a lot of people that say this are often very priviledged. Any thoughts?
Well...we have to be careful how we characterize a "random" event for happening for a specific reason. I say that things do happen for a reason, but to stay away from what that reason is...you can speculate...but you shouldn't say that A led to B. Like for example, Katrina happened because the blacks there were evil and we gave land to the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis...We can speculate it..but we cannot say that it happened for sure.
We maybe no, but when people are close to the Torah and also "are connected", then when someone like that says something then its worth believing. Anyway each Jewish individual is supposed to have that level of Emuna where one sees the happenings of his/her sorroundings and even more so global events as messages from G-d to him. (but before that one has to have the lower and middle levels of Emuna- Believing in G-d's prodidence that everything happens for a reason, their is no punishment without sin and that G-d does things for your ultimate good- Check "the Garden Of Emuna" where the Whole boook is about Emuna).
Back to Katrina- Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and other Gedolim said what they did because threw the Torah and understanding of what the people their were doing (everyone knows the type of city new Orleans was) they were able to piece everything together.
Maimonedes wouldnt' have accepted that though...it's a very unJewish way of thinking.
I can say, on the other hand, that evil people will be blind towards the poor levees...and thus by not repairing them or considering the downfall of a terrible hurricane, ended up getting their just medicine
However, i think it quite messed up to tell a father burying his child due to katrina that Gd did this because the people of New Orleans were evil..that is sooo cold and callous! You would say the same thing about the 1.5 million children that were murdered during the Shoah? Come on! that's messed up! I strongly disagree with Rabbi Ovadia yosef and the other Gedolim who say such cold things like that...where is the compassion?!
If you say so, then bring some proof from the Rambam.
And about compassion, it is compassionate when a Rav tells people of their mistakes and the fact that people have to correct them. Also it is compassionate to explain what happens (the truth) and show that their is order in this world, and G-d makes everything + He is just and not cruel, but because people mess up He punishes them (and expecially for the Jews to see the message)
What you are saying is like- a doctor who sees his patient who can die becuase of something. According to you the doctor shouldn't tell the patient his situation and just let him expire, while on the other hand a good doctor would tell his patient his situation and what needs to be done for him to correct himself. We cant keep living in an illusion thinking that everything will be okay, without us doing what is right.
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Nu where's you answer ??? . Next time please provide proof, instead of stating something false. What I posted is something that not I myself made up, but comes from a famous book, by a famous Rav (Rav Arush Slita) who brings text and proof from many places in Torah).
Im not personally offended, but it really p*sses me off when people make statements and because they want some legitimacy state that the Rambam says it.
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Nu where's you answer ??? . Next time please provide proof, instead of stating something false. What I posted is something that not I myself made up, but comes from a famous book, by a famous Rav (Rav Arush Slita) who brings text and proof from many places in Torah).
Im not personally offended, but it really p*sses me off when people make statements and because they want some legitimacy state that the Rambam says it.
Savlanoot!!!!
Maimonides (1135-1204) simply said that we may not say that G-d does so and so because a human does so and so. This has been normative Judaism. There is no tit for tat in our religious belief system. Jews have become too Christianized in their theology.
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Nu where's you answer ??? . Next time please provide proof, instead of stating something false. What I posted is something that not I myself made up, but comes from a famous book, by a famous Rav (Rav Arush Slita) who brings text and proof from many places in Torah).
Im not personally offended, but it really p*sses me off when people make statements and because they want some legitimacy state that the Rambam says it.
Savlanoot!!!!
Maimonides (1135-1204) simply said that we may not say that G-d does so and so because a human does so and so. This has been normative Judaism. There is no tit for tat in our religious belief system. Jews have become too Christianized in their theology.
Right, and where does he say so? Again no proof, just making some statement.
Rabbanim know a lot more that someone with an opinion, and no this isn't Judaism becoming cristianized, you should go learn some Torah and then speak, don't post things that are only convenient to you without the right proof and without having Daat- first learn Torah and then make an opinion.
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There is nothing we can say on this thread or anything that any Rabbi on this planet can tell you to explain the ways of G-d, the most they can do is guide you in the right direction. Trying to understand G-d and his perfect ways is impossible for us to understand completely so we try our best but it can only be understood yourself by thinking about it on your own and looking into the Torah, no one can explain it to you since it is a hidden area that you must work on your own and feel the answers as best as you can by yourself. It is lifelong quest that every individual has a different potential of understanding and no two people understand the same way but in the end not even the angels understand the ways of G-d to its entirety, only G-d himself understands his own oneness and perfection. If you look into the Torah, live the Torah and think about it over many years, some answers will reveal themselves about the ways of G-d.
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Nu where's you answer ??? . Next time please provide proof, instead of stating something false. What I posted is something that not I myself made up, but comes from a famous book, by a famous Rav (Rav Arush Slita) who brings text and proof from many places in Torah).
Im not personally offended, but it really p*sses me off when people make statements and because they want some legitimacy state that the Rambam says it.
Savlanoot!!!!
Maimonides (1135-1204) simply said that we may not say that G-d does so and so because a human does so and so. This has been normative Judaism. There is no tit for tat in our religious belief system. Jews have become too Christianized in their theology.
Right, and where does he say so? Again no proof, just making some statement.
Rabbanim know a lot more that someone with an opinion, and no this isn't Judaism becoming cristianized, you should go learn some Torah and then speak, don't post things that are only convenient to you without the right proof and without having Daat- first learn Torah and then make an opinion.
So that's your arguement..you can't prove it wrong...nuf said... YOu cannot prove this statement is wrong..so sad..sooooo sad..Because it's a true statement to a certain degree.
Going back to your refute from my original refute:
When did I ever say that the Gadolim were not teaching something when talking about natural disasters... My worries is when any human being especially learned men equate the death of innocent people to natural disasters. Yes, New Orleans was an evil place....But innocent people lived within it. Young children died...they didn't go whoring themselves on Burbon Street!
And what about the 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah? Well I supposed they were evil children and Gd killed them all...well gee....(Gd forbid!)...Come on Tzvi...get real!
I'm sorry, I disagree with these Gadolim who say things like that...and btw, that is a real quote given to me by my rabbi when I had the same arguement you had about Katrina and other natural disasters. This quote by Rambam, set me straight...No human, nor any Gadolim..even the biggest has a right to think for Gd. Yes, they can teach us something about sin and how it's wrong to sin..and teach us the Jewish way of living..Yes...I respect that aspect of their authority...But how dare any mortal ever EVER say that a natural disaster took place because of the sinners of that city...when it turns out that innocent children were also affected..SO COLD...SOOOOOOO COLD! NO COMPASSION!!! Where are you real Jewish roots without compassion!?
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There is nothing we can say on this thread or anything that any Rabbi on this planet can tell you to explain the ways of G-d, the most they can do is guide you in the right direction. Trying to understand G-d and his perfect ways is impossible for us to understand completely so we try our best but it can only be understood yourself by thinking about it on your own and looking into the Torah, no one can explain it to you since it is a hidden area that you must work on your own and feel the answers as best as you can by yourself. It is lifelong quest that every individual has a different potential of understanding and no two people understand the same way but in the end not even the angels understand the ways of G-d to its entirety, only G-d himself understands his own oneness and perfection. If you look into the Torah, live the Torah and think about it over many years, some answers will reveal themselves about the ways of G-d.
Amen!
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Nu where's you answer ??? . Next time please provide proof, instead of stating something false. What I posted is something that not I myself made up, but comes from a famous book, by a famous Rav (Rav Arush Slita) who brings text and proof from many places in Torah).
Im not personally offended, but it really p*sses me off when people make statements and because they want some legitimacy state that the Rambam says it.
Savlanoot!!!!
Maimonides (1135-1204) simply said that we may not say that G-d does so and so because a human does so and so. This has been normative Judaism. There is no tit for tat in our religious belief system. Jews have become too Christianized in their theology.
Right, and where does he say so? Again no proof, just making some statement.
Rabbanim know a lot more that someone with an opinion, and no this isn't Judaism becoming cristianized, you should go learn some Torah and then speak, don't post things that are only convenient to you without the right proof and without having Daat- first learn Torah and then make an opinion.
So that's your arguement..you can't prove it wrong...nuf said... YOu cannot prove this statement is wrong..so sad..sooooo sad..Because it's a true statement to a certain degree.
Going back to your refute from my original refute:
When did I ever say that the Gadolim were not teaching something when talking about natural disasters... My worries is when any human being especially learned men equate the death of innocent people to natural disasters. Yes, New Orleans was an evil place....But innocent people lived within it. Young children died...they didn't go whoring themselves on Burbon Street!
And what about the 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah? Well I supposed they were evil children and Gd killed them all...well gee....(Gd forbid!)...Come on Tzvi...get real!
I'm sorry, I disagree with these Gadolim who say things like that...and btw, that is a real quote given to me by my rabbi when I had the same arguement you had about Katrina and other natural disasters. This quote by Rambam, set me straight...No human, nor any Gadolim..even the biggest has a right to think for Gd. Yes, they can teach us something about sin and how it's wrong to sin..and teach us the Jewish way of living..Yes...I respect that aspect of their authority...But how dare any mortal ever EVER say that a natural disaster took place because of the sinners of that city...when it turns out that innocent children were also affected..SO COLD...SOOOOOOO COLD! NO COMPASSION!!! Where are you real Jewish roots without compassion!?
nuff said...i'm waiting for your reply Tzvi....you're asking your rebbi..I"ll sit and wait for HIS answer.
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I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.
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I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.
Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me! We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).
The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.
Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens. Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward.. SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment. The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation. It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.
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Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabb-t is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefardi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefardi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefardim).
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I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.
Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me! We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).
The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.
Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens. Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward.. SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment. The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation. It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.
Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept. Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.
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Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabbat is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefaradi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefaradi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefaradim).
Let's be honest..I am a Jew like you Tzvi..shame on you! No, reincarnations is not Judaism...no way no how..it's not Judaism. The other two, yes Judaism.
I do not compare rabbis to priests and imams..I compare these specific things about what they might have said or implied to be very similar to Imams and Priests who have no compassion whatsoever for the innocent!
Tzvi, you need to grow up and think for yourself than just to follow without criticism...Don't be surprised..I'm much older than you and have therefore lived more and longer than you to know better than you. To study and know Torah, you have to live in this world than stick your nose in the books 24/7. But hey, that's my opinion. I guess to you I'm going to hell because I'm not as jewish as you...What a sham!!! This isn't Judaism which you preach..it's fundamentalism which ruins Judaism and all decent people in this world!
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I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.
Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me! We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).
The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.
Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens. Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward.. SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment. The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation. It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.
Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept. Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.
Oh come on! We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach! Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!! Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!! Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...
Come on..reincarnation by butt!
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Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabbat is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefaradi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefaradi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefaradim).
I'm in agreement with Dr. Dan and don't think that reinarnation is part of Judaism. Also, Tzvi your answers are oversimplified with a false sense of understanding and incomplete. Punishment happens sometimes without sin and there are some possible reasons that you can give about select cases some that Tzvi stated. A few other cases only a few people uncover the answer since it is secret and requires an elevated state to perceive and you usually understand only partially one aspect of the reason. But other cases you can't possibly understand the reason.
I'm not going to try and reveal anything about this hidden area of the Torah since you can't explain it with words but have to understand it by yourself. All that I can say is the basics, that when G-d punishes the wicked of an area and some righteous people are mixed in with the wicked, he may punish the righteous of that area as well if they are small in number. This is derived in the Torah from the incident with Abraham and the city of Sodom when Abraham prayed for the city. G-d also holds a group of people accountable as a whole and punishes them as a whole if they committed a big sin. What Tzvi said is correct that some times righteous people of a group suffer for the sins of the wicked for this reason. For example, Israel was punished by G-d in the Bible for sinning even though there were many righteous people who were punished as well. Similarly, G-d punishes the children usually up to 3 or 4 generations down the line for the sins of a father if he committed a sin as it says in the Torah. But if a nation sins a very great sin like the golden calf, then future generations are punished for this sin even after 4 generations, the same applies to murder according to my opinion. If you ask why does G-d do all these things, this is a infinitely deep matter that you must try to uncover yourself the best as you can but it is impossible for a mortal to understand all the reasons about G-d's ways. Sometimes G-d punishes you for your benefit, as a test. G-d knows that you are capable of passing the test, and if you pass the test, you get great reward in this world or the world to come. See the story of Abraham in Genesis. Sometimes G-d punishes a group of people or an individiual and it doesn't fit into any of these categories, but they are completely righteous and they or their ancestors never made any proportional sin in the past; as G-d made the ancient Jews slaves in Egypt of a few hundred years and the worse sin they did was the selling of Joseph, which is disproportionate punishment. This is the most difficult case that no one understands and those who know something about it can't reveal it since they discovered it when they were in a certain elevated state which is required to receive the "flash of lightning" (as the Rambam says) that is necessary to mentally absorb such an understanding so you must try to uncover as much as you can by yourself over the years and usually when people get older or concentrate on this question over several years they begin to understand more.
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Correction, sorry but you are NOT a Torah Jew. Lets be honest. Reincarnations, yes its Judasim, and Shabbat is also Judasim, and Kashrut and all the other laws. Comparing Rabbis to priests and Imams is insulting their knowledge and the Torah because what they know comes from the Torah.
Im actually really suprised that this is coming from a Sefaradi Persian Jew. I could imagine some Askenaz who has been disconnected for 5 generations, but a Sefaradi Jew? Its really sad. (not that im insulting all Askenazim, but that it started much earlier with them, and recently with Sefaradim).
I'm in agreement with Dr. Dan and don't think that reinarnation is part of Judaism. Also, Tzvi your answers are oversimplified with a false sense of understanding and incomplete. Punishment happens sometimes without sin and there are some possible reasons that you can give about select cases some that Tzvi stated. A few other cases only a few people uncover the answer since it is secret and requires an elevated state to perceive and you usually understand only partially one aspect of the reason. But other cases you can't possibly understand the reason.
I'm not going to try and reveal anything about this hidden area of the Torah since you can't explain it with words but have to understand it by yourself. All that I can say is the basics, that when G-d punishes the wicked of an area and some righteous people are mixed in with the wicked, he may punish the righteous of that area as well if they are small in number. This is derived in the Torah from the incident with Abraham and the city of Sodom when Abraham prayed for the city. G-d also holds a group of people accountable as a whole and punishes them as a whole if they committed a big sin. What Tzvi said is correct that some times righteous people of a group suffer for the sins of the wicked for this reason. For example, Israel was punished by G-d in the Bible for sinning even though there were many righteous people who were punished as well. Similarly, G-d punishes the children usually up to 3 or 4 generations down the line for the sins of a father if he committed a sin as it says in the Torah. But if a nation sins a very great sin like the golden calf, then future generations are punished for this sin even after 4 generations, the same applies to murder according to my opinion. If you ask why does G-d do all these things, this is a infinitely deep matter that you must try to uncover yourself the best as you can but it is impossible for a mortal to understand all the reasons about G-d's ways. Sometimes G-d punishes a group of people or an individiual and it doesn't fit into any of these categories, but they are completely righteous and they or their ancestors never made any proportional sin in the past; as G-d made the ancient Jews slaves in Egypt of a few hundred years and the worse sin they did was the selling of Joseph, which is disproportionate punishment. This is the most difficult case that no one understands and those who know something about it can't reveal it since they discovered it when they were in a certain elevated state which is required to receive the "flash of lightning" (as the Rambam says) that is necessary to mentally absorb such an understanding so you must try to uncover as much as you can by yourself over the years and usually when people get older or concentrate on this question over several years they begin to understand more.
Thank you JDL4ever...actually, I heard today that it was 7 generations and not 4 generations...Nevertheless, my point really is none of us really know. We should try to avoid as much as we can to say unrelated A became unrelated B...
Also you imply hidden meanings that you won't reveal in what you wrote in the beginning..I assume you meant the Kabbalah. Once again, we all agree that you have to be a Torah and Talmud scholar over the age 40 be married and have at least one child...My friends, I'm not that, nor is Tzvi...
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I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.
Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me! We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).
The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.
Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens. Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward.. SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment. The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation. It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.
Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept. Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.
Oh come on! We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach! Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!! Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!! Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...
Come on..reincarnation by butt!
Look in your siddur. You can't just deny this with any evidence supporting your argument.
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I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.
Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me! We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).
The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.
Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens. Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward.. SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment. The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation. It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.
Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept. Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.
Oh come on! We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach! Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!! Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!! Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...
Come on..reincarnation by butt!
Look in your siddur. You can't just deny this with any evidence supporting your argument.
which siddur what page...i'll be sure to look it up...
btw, siddur isn't Torah...if it is a teeny tiny passage of poetry, it's poetry...
I was told by a learned ORthodox Rabbi once that if I saw somethign from nature that was unusual and it especially reminded us someone who passed...such as a moth that just wouldn't go away (and that it was the spirit of a loved one who passed), the best thing to do is light a candle...what he meant to say was, "Hey, this reincarnation thing is not our thing..however, whatever might move you to think about someone who has passed on, light a candle in their memory." I take what he said as a true reality...
And if reincarnation were true, you tell me, how the HECK do any of us know that any of those 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah were reincarnated from something else?! Please spare me!!! It makes me sick that none of you can't accept this coldness! IT's a damn shame!!!! This is not what I want to expect from fellow Jews especially Gadolim who allegedly implied or said these things!
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I am not talking about the Kabalah of the Zohar or any Kabalah as modern people call it and refer to, something that is written in books that fools brag "I read this book so I know secrets of the Torah". No. I am talking about the hidden areas of the Torah (the REAL Kabalah that the Rambam talks about) that their are no books to consult, no one to ask on the matter to reveal it, and no two people understand the secret the exact same way from the exact same angle. The only way to learn this is to uncover it yourself by studying the written and Oral Torah, sometimes if you are lucky you can find a few pieces in books written by great Rabbis as well, and thinking about it over several years with no help from anyone but G-d himself. And if you are lucky G-d will reveal something to you usually by temporarily elevating your mind above this world. The secret is frequently never fully revealed but is a lifelong quest where you pick up more pieces as you go on. See the Rambam's guide to the perplexed and he says similar to what I am saying. Sometimes if you are worthy and know something about the secret you can cheat and ask someone for hints as the Rambam says.
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
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I didnt ask my Rabbi. I just read your posts. About even children dieng (even Jewish children), it was discussed, and the real answer is that they were reincarnations from previous lives and for their level they got what G-d wanted (not that im judging them or im better, etc. but every punishment is because of sin). If you dont want to believe people like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who said this or Rav Amnon Yitzhak, then at least read Rabbi Kahane's book (both the Rav and his son, who is also a Rav). Its a small booklet on the Holocaust. In it he clearly writes that their is no punishment without sin.
One point though- their are also some (rare thought) people who get punishments because they take it upon themselves to be an atonement for other Jews, and also some who can only grow tremendously throught affliction, but the general rule for the world is that their is no punishment without sin.
Through learning and connecting, one can see what is happening in the world and its something that Jews should expecially learn.
When their are punishments in the world, and G-d afflicts the nations, its all becuase of Israel. They are doing the same sins that the Jews might be doing, and when G-d "takes out the whip" he first hits something else in order to teach the child. But unfortunatly if still the child doesn't get it, then he would have to hit the child. Be smart and see the warning before you get hit yourself (which is also for your ultimate good when G-d decides).- their is an easier painless way, and their is a harder way, you decide.
Ha! Reincarnations from other lives...oh that sounds like Judaism to me!!! REINCARNATIONS?! that's not Judaism! Please..spare me! We are Torah Jews..not Buddhists and Hindus (not that there is anythign wrong with their theology of reincarnation..it's just not Judaism's perspective).
The second part I agree with...But come on! You are way out of left field here...and any rabbi that might have said this I hope didn't mean that literally about reincarnations...that's a really messed up excuse....even if it were Kahane himself.
Bottom line: Deaths of innocent people is sad.. we shoudl be sad...but we shoudln't hate Gd for it...we dont' know why He does it...but it happens. Life isn't necessarily a just reward..sometimes death is a just reward.. SOmetimes being poor is a just reward..and sometimes being rich is a punishment. The thing is, we don't know...we just don't know why when far out things happen and innocent or guilty people get afflicted...We can say that if one murders and gets caught, he will recieve the death penalty..that's a just punishment...BUt if there is a hurricane and it kills innocent children at the same time as evil people, and it happens to be a city of sin...you can't say that Gd did it as a just punishment...Yes we can look at a disaster like that and fear Gd and change our ways..That's fine..but you can't say that A caused B and therefore C when it is far out and Gd had everythign to do with it..we cannot know nor say why and because...And any Gadolim who attempts this is not doing his duty properly, in my opinion, in this particular situation. It reminds me of what Imams might do to rile up their crowds..and perhaps some Christian ministers/priests. Or any religion or non-religious movement.
Dr. Dan, reincarnation actually is a Jewish concept. Look in a Siddur, and you'll find numerous references to it.
Oh come on! We get reincarnated or we go to HEaven or we go to Hell...or we are born again on the days of Moshiach! Listen..LIVE YOUR LIFE!! LIVE LIFE!!! Don't think of death..LIVE LIFE!!!! Let Gd deal with the rest when you die...
Come on..reincarnation by butt!
Look in your siddur. You can't just deny this with any evidence supporting your argument.
which siddur what page...i'll be sure to look it up...
btw, siddur isn't Torah...if it is a teeny tiny passage of poetry, it's poetry...
I was told by a learned ORthodox Rabbi once that if I saw somethign from nature that was unusual and it especially reminded us someone who passed...such as a moth that just wouldn't go away (and that it was the spirit of a loved one who passed), the best thing to do is light a candle...what he meant to say was, "Hey, this reincarnation thing is not our thing..however, whatever might move you to think about someone who has passed on, light a candle in their memory." I take what he said as a true reality...
And if reincarnation were true, you tell me, how the HECK do any of us know that any of those 1.5 million children who perished in the Shoah were reincarnated from something else?! Please spare me!!! It makes me sick that none of you can't accept this coldness! IT's a damn shame!!!! This is not what I want to expect from fellow Jews especially Gadolim who allegedly implied or said these things!
In any Siddur in a lot of places. For example, look in the first paragraph of Kiryas Shema al Hamitah.
Whether you like it or not, gilgul is almost universally accepted, by both Chasidim and Misnagdim. This is Yiddishkeit.
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The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion, and I think they are concepts of recent onset derived from idolatry. A lot of Rabbis accept "Gilgul" so if you want to believe in it I can't stop you. But I'm going to write my opinion about it, that it is nonsense.
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The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion
That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?
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So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
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The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion
That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?
Correct. He was one of the greatest Rabbis who ever lived and if it was Judaism he would have wrote about it when he talked about heaven and hell.
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sephardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my God, and God of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
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The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion
That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?
Correct. He was one of the greatest Rabbis who ever lived and if it was Judaism he would have wrote about it when he talked about heaven and hell.
Show me where he talks aboiut Zionism (not living in Eretz Yisrael, ZIONISM). Or a Mechitza (not separating men and women, A MECHITZA). Or any of the things that are in Shulchan Aruch that aren't in the Rambam. To say something "isn't Judaism" because the Rambam didn't write about it is silly.
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The Rambam does not write once about "Gilgul" or "reincarnation" so they are not part of Judaism in my opinion
That's very stupid - something isn't Judaism because the Rambam didn't write about it?
Correct. He was one of the greatest Rabbis who ever lived and if it was Judaism he would have wrote about it when he talked about heaven and hell.
Thats the same type of thinking as those who claim that the Oral Torah wasn't given by G-d, but made up by the Rabbi's say( G-d forbid). Their was allways, and allways will be a link by Rabbi to student, and so on, telling the Torah for generations, then their came a time when things were written down, at one time the Talmud, then another the Zohar, etc, but in addition to that even with the books their is allways a tradition and a link, one cannot say when asked who is your Rabbi- for him to say that its the Rambam, each Jew and expecially serious Torah scholar needs a link of where to get the Tradition, so where one learns from his Rav, who learned it from his Rav, etc. All the way back to Mt. Sinai.
If you maake such claims, then tell me who is your Rabbi, and what link and tradition that he has which tell him soo with proof?
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So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
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just wanted to say, "I love you guys..." :)
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So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
You didn't read what I said, I said that Gilgul is based on Idolatry. So that means that these Rabbis who believe in Gilgul in my opinion, are wrong on this issue and have a belief based on Idolatry. G-d forbid they are actually practicing idolatry! They just are wrong on this issue and people have a right to be wrong, no one is perfect. Tzvi, you have a faulty belief that most Charedim have, that a Rabbi must be perfect to be considered "Holy" or a "Gadol Hador" or a "Tzadik" or Saint. The truth is that you do not have to be perfect to be a Holy Saint, in fact no person is perfect or right on everything and everyone sins sometimes. The stories that survive the generations of Rabbis that died a long time ago are only the greatest miraculous stories about the Rabbi (sometimes exaggerated), none of the mundane stories survive of the mortal aspects of these Rabbis or how they weren't born a Gadol Hador but were regular people that made themselves great. If you want to see real unedited stories about the great Tzadikim than read the Torah and the Tanach where it lists frequently the sins of the greatest of leaders but that did not stop them from being considered in G-d's eyes the greatest of Tzadikim. That "hint" from the Talmud is no "hint" in my opinion, and you are seeing something that is not there simply because you want to see it.
My tradition passed down from my father and grandfather has no existence of Gilgul in it.
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So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
-
So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
cut and paste the talmudic quote...
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
-
So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
cut and paste the talmudic quote...
Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
-
So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
cut and paste the talmudic quote...
Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.
I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
-
Forget about it. We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this. Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.
-
So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
cut and paste the talmudic quote...
Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.
I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?
I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.
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Forget about it. We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this. Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.
Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?
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"Based on Avodah Zarah" does not equal "Avodah Zarah". No, I don't think they are practicing idolatry. But I don't think it is a valid belief as the Vilna Goan didn't consider certain things about the Chassidim to be valid and as the Rabbis that argued in the Talmud didn't consider the other opinion to be valid frequently. And as the Rambam didn't consider believing in astrology to be valid, and had a lot of trouble with Rashi implying that he believed in it so much that he refused to let himself believe that Rashi really believed in astrology but wrote that we should judge him favorably that he didn't believe in it.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
-
So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
cut and paste the talmudic quote...
Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.
I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?
I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.
you don't understand Tzvi..no offense to the guy..he's very boring...
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
;D , are you a lawyer?
And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.
-
Forget about it. We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this. Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.
Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?
let me ask you...in this prayer that the words of reincarnation is quotes, you believe that just because it is written here that it can exist?
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
;D , are you a lawyer?
And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.
No i'm a periodontist..but thanks for the complement.
-
Forget about it. We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this. Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.
Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?
let me ask you...in this prayer that the words of reincarnation is quotes, you believe that just because it is written here that it can exist?
Yea but this isn't the only place, their are whole books written and explaining this (ex- Shaare Hagilgulim), you just wanted one example and posted it yourself.
-
Tzvi, I already stated that I don't believe in Gilgul despite some Rabbis believing in it. That includes anyone from the Vilna Goan to R' Kahane himself. And just because I don't accept a few things a Gadol says doesn't mean that I don't generally follow that Gadol on other issues. Also I believe that the Zohar was a forgery despite it being the minority opinion among Rabbis today since I believe it is the truth.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
;D , are you a lawyer?
And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.
No i'm a periodontist..but thanks for the complement.
;D , I hope its not what I think it is, it sounds like something as bad as lawyers.
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Forget about it. We can't settle this here if the contemporary Rabbis themselves argue about this. Either you believe in Gilgul or you don't and you have people to rely on.
Fair enough, but you'll at least agree that it's permitted to believe in it, whether you do or not, and that it's not (CV"S) Avodah Zarah?
let me ask you...in this prayer that the words of reincarnation is quotes, you believe that just because it is written here that it can exist?
Yea but this isn't the only place, their are whole books written and explaining this (ex- Shaare Hagilgulim), you just wanted one example and posted it yourself.
and i already said that this doesn't prove of its existence...
furthermore..let's just say for arguments sake that it did...how are human being supposed to know what innocent child that was killed by natural disaster was reincarnated from something else? IT's a sorry excuse to be cold...
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
;D , are you a lawyer?
And JDL- The Vilna Gaon writes himself on reincarnation, and I allready posted it before.
No i'm a periodontist..but thanks for the complement.
;D , I hope its not what I think it is, it sounds like something as bad as lawyers.
no i save teeth and make new teeth straight to the jaw bone.
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
"Based on Avodah Zarah" does not equal "Avodah Zarah". No, I don't think they are practicing idolatry. But I don't think it is a valid belief as the Vilna Goan didn't consider the Chassidim to be valid.
But the Vilna Gaon believed in Gilgulim...
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
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So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
cut and paste the talmudic quote...
Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.
I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?
I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.
you don't understand Tzvi..no offense to the guy..he's very boring...
For how long did you listin? You dont understand, thats its a very good lesson, I know in the beginning he is talking about correcting oneself, and the satan fights hard to make Jews not to listin to it, but if you just fight that and go agains't it, then you will learn a lot and have joy by listining. - + you ask how can this or that, but if you want to start to understand then you have to learn Torah, so I request that you listin to this lecture.
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
"Practical Essence of Tikkun"
Also Im posting it again for other Jews to see and G-d willing (also according to their will, and wanting to do a Mitzva Gedola), learn.
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So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).
Gd forbid any of them be idolators.
But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.
cut and paste the talmudic quote...
Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.
I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?
I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.
you don't understand Tzvi..no offense to the guy..he's very boring...
For how long did you listin? You dont understand, thats its a very good lesson, I know in the beginning he is talking about correcting oneself, and the satan fights hard to make Jews not to listin to it, but if you just fight that and go agains't it, then you will learn a lot and have joy by listining. - + you ask how can this or that, but if you want to start to understand then you have to learn Torah, so I request that you listin to this lecture.
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
"Practical Essence of Tikkun"
Also Im posting it again for other Jews to see and G-d willing (also according to their will, and wanting to do a Mitzva Gedola), learn.
I'm telling you..not my cup of tea with this type of speaker...i have zoned out time and time again...
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
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OK I'm going to [censored] a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
"according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
"according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.
such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...and you don't have the stomach to see things from our points of view...
so sad that you are this closed minded. Such a shame that a Jew would feel this way and live in his own darkness.
You can't idolize rabbis your whole life...
Wise men and fools have the same end....Therefore, wisdom can come from any one person, foolish or wise.
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
"according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.
such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded.
Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.
??? . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
- and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
"according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.
such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded.
Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.
??? . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
- and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.
If judgement is to come later then why do you think you are like Gd to judge others to be like you?
And quit skirting the subject...I win this argument and you cop out of it..
and now you think that I might not make it to the world to come...
Poor soul
Don't wise men and fools return to their maker? Don't both of our bodies decompose the same way once we are dead? we end up in the same place physically...
Wisdom can be learned from the fool...And one can be made a fool from someone wise...
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.
How can you say such a thing when the concept in even discussed in the Gemara? Is the Talmud Buddhism?
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
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I am getting frustrated with this pointless argument since Tzvi is not arguing. Having a Torah argument means arguing using logic and Torah to prove your point, then bringing a counter argument to try and disprove me. It doesn't mean playing the "Rabbi game" that the Charedim play to cop out of arguing and that is what is going on. Clearly apparent to anyone who ever learned a little Talmud, that we don't turn a blind eye to the minority opinion stated by even just one Rabbi against the entire Sanhedrin. The Talmud considers the opinions of the minority seriously and attempts to prove/disprove them against the majority. Every Torah opinion must be examined and considered with an open mind even if it is the minority and you must make a Torah decision as to which opinion you think is correct. So spare me this silly "Rabbi game". Just because something happens to be the majority opinion does not make it correct. Don't we remember that 20 years ago R' Kahane Zs'l was the minority opinion that most Rabbis called nuts?
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1- When was I judging? If anything, if I did (im not sure), but is to tell and I can (as any other Jew who can and should do it according to the Torah- which is a positive commandment) What is the right path, and that we have to follow the Torah, or the Torah says a,b, c and d.
2- you didn't win anything, stop fooling yourself, what did you win?
3- Did I say that specifically? You just said that, stop making judgement agains't yourself.
4- Our bodies might all decompose, but "we" are our souls. Not the body.
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
"according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.
such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded.
Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.
??? . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
- and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.
I just want to add that Chaim himself would never end an argument with someone on the basis that you are trying to...so again, you are copping out..you know I'm right and you don't want to admit to it because simply i'm a periodontist and not a Gadolim.
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.
How can you say such a thing when the concept in even discussed in the Gemara? Is the Talmud Buddhism?
It is NOT discussed in the Talmud.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.
How can you say such a thing when the concept in even discussed in the Gemara? Is the Talmud Buddhism?
It is NOT discussed in the Talmud.
I apologize. It does not DIRECTLY state it. In 105a it says (something to the effect of) that Bilam is Lavan. This is understood as (I believe Targum Yonasan says this also) that Bilam was a Gilgul of Lavan.
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1- When was I judging? If anything, if I did (im not sure), but is to tell and I can (as any other Jew who can and should do it according to the Torah- which is a positive commandment) What is the right path, and that we have to follow the Torah, or the Torah says a,b, c and d.
2- you didn't win anything, stop fooling yourself, what did you win?
3- Did I say that specifically? You just said that, stop making judgement agains't yourself.
4- Our bodies might all decompose, but "we" are our souls. Not the body.
1. you have been judging even indirectly.
2. i won because you refuse to argue because i'm not a rabbi..argue with me as if i'm a normal person with opinions and with your opinoins..don't cop out...very bad.
3. look at 1
4. we have souls, but in teh world to come, don't we return to our decomposed bodies and rise?
listen, it might be written that the world to come might come about...fine...but really we don't know for sure on a worldly basis if this will happen...it's faith really..
however, what we do know is that when we die our body returns to dust..the fool dies the same way as a wise person..that's what we definitely know..that's my point. We have the same end.
and you have yet to refute that wisdom can be acquired from a fool...and that the following the wise blindly can make one into a fool. You make it seem that you understand what these gadolim are saying becuase you are just as high as them...perhaps you don't understand them correctly and now you look like a fool...
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
"according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.
such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded.
Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.
??? . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
- and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.
I just want to add that Chaim himself would never end an argument with someone on the basis that you are trying to...so again, you are copping out..you know I'm right and you don't want to admit to it because simply i'm a periodontist and not a Gadolim.
Maybe I dont understand what you mean, but im not Chaim, and yes you are only a periodontist, not someone who basis himself on arguments and proof from the Torah and our Sages, and yes the Gadolim are definitly more reliable then me and you because they learn Torah most of their time, and recieve their information from their Rebbe, where you are only making an opinion, based on nothing. + believe me im being kind in only saying this.
- If you want an opinion then why the 1 billion Muslims aren't right, they also have an opinion, or others, they also come with an opinion. Those with True Knowledge come with Tradition and learn from tradition, and not just a baseless opinion (how much more so coming from those on very low level).
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you know what, okay im not going to continue, if you want to believe so, you won, ::) , congradulations. My only hope is that you stop living in your illusion and ignorance.
I would suggest that you start opening up the books, or listining to tapes, cd's or online. Also maybe you choose the wronge profession, you should have been a lawyer (G-d forbid, im only joking, I dont wish to curse you), good night.
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OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best. The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism. The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers. It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason. If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent. When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems. When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it. This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.
"according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.
such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded.
Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.
??? . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
- and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.
I just want to add that Chaim himself would never end an argument with someone on the basis that you are trying to...so again, you are copping out..you know I'm right and you don't want to admit to it because simply i'm a periodontist and not a Gadolim.
Maybe I dont understand what you mean, but im not Chaim, and yes you are only a periodontist, not someone who basis himself on arguments and proof from the Torah and our Sages, and yes the Gadolim are definitly more reliable then me and you because they learn Torah most of their time, and recieve their information from their Rebbe, where you are only making an opinion, based on nothing. + believe me im being kind in only saying this.
- If you want an opinion then why the 1 billion Muslims aren't right, they also have an opinion, or others, they also come with an opinion. Those with True Knowledge come with Tradition and learn from tradition, and not just a baseless opinion (how much more so coming from those on very low level).
ok..let's go back to what we were arguing about...
things happen for a reason...you say yes, Gd is involved in everything and you add that Gadolim can judge that certain things which are natural (like weather) are related to whether or not people sin..
I say yes, Gd is involved with everything, but mortals..Gadolim or not, we must be careful on how we connect such things. We can speculate, we can learn how to be better people..but we cannot definately say that Gd did such and such because He was angry and wanted to punish everyone. You just can't think for Gd...nor can Gadolim even though they might be wiser and better at it..it still doesn't make it right.
You accepted the reasoning based on the innocent who perish in these instances as reincarnates and you submitted this lovely prayer as evidence.
I countered that this is a metaphor
and now you want to say that I'm not a rabbi and therefore my opinion doesn't count..so now you refuse to argue with me further...
I say, that's a cop out.
And then you submit that rabbis are wiser than periodontists on the matter of Torah. I definately agree with that. However, you aren't a rabbi either nor are you wise enough to understand it to the same degree as the Gadolim...
So my answer to you is..let's talk about this as human beings and quit this "I have to talk to my rabbi and see what he says because I don't know nor don't want to think for myself.n I need someone to tell me what to do and how to live my life rather than figure out what's right for me."
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you know what, okay im not going to continue, if you want to believe so, you won, ::) , congradulations. My only hope is that you stop living in your illusion and ignorance.
I would suggest that you start opening up the books, or listining to tapes, cd's or online. Also maybe you choose the wronge profession, you should have been a lawyer (G-d forbid, im only joking, I dont wish to curse you), good night.
Tzvi, you are but just a child...all i can say is that I definitely got to you...that's all that counts..
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
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"and now you want to say that I'm not a rabbi and therefore my opinion doesn't count..so now you refuse to argue with me further... "
What I was saying to you is that what you are basing yourself on is an opinion based on your feelings and not based on the Torah. You are bringing your limited opinion, while the Torah is a different subject, this discussion isn't about politics where you can bring your own opinion and preference, this is the Torah which is Divine is is recieved and not interprteted according to ones desires and feelings. if a murderer or even a Shab-t desecrator would state something with things that is in the Torah is one thing, you are not even doing that, but only stating your feelings and everything said to you is only bouncing of you and not going into your head.
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"and now you want to say that I'm not a rabbi and therefore my opinion doesn't count..so now you refuse to argue with me further... "
What I was saying to you is that what you are basing yourself on is an opinion based on your feelings and not based on the Torah. You are bringing your limited opinion, while the Torah is a different subject, this discussion isn't about politics where you can bring your own opinion and preference, this is the Torah which is Divine is is recieved and not interprteted according to ones desires and feelings. if a murderer or even a Shab-t desecrator would state something with things that is in the Torah is one thing, you are not even doing that, but only stating your feelings and everything said to you is only bouncing of you and not going into your head.
Once again, you refuse to argue my point...instead you send your rabbi in to argue with me...No Tzvi, I want to argue with you...not your rabbi.
heheh 3000 posts...
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
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Everything happens becuase of G-d. G-d has to approve everything, even something tiny, how much more soo when someone dies. BUT maybe you can counter argue and say that G-d took away his chein currently, so what happens (the bad expecially) is because G-d's grace isn't currently upon us (to a large extent, like its supposed to be and will be in the near Future when we merit it).
So people don't have free will and what I am saying right now is because of God ?
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Everything happens becuase of G-d. G-d has to approve everything, even something tiny, how much more soo when someone dies. BUT maybe you can counter argue and say that G-d took away his chein currently, so what happens (the bad expecially) is because G-d's grace isn't currently upon us (to a large extent, like its supposed to be and will be in the near Future when we merit it).
So people don't have free will and what I am saying right now is because of G-d ?
We have free will...just sometimes we try so hard to get things to work and it doesn't work..that's where Gd might be intervening.
Anyway, why is this thread here? it should be put back in the general discussion section
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Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me. It builds character..
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Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me. It builds character..
Im going to stop arguing with you (Bli Neder) becuase you refuse to listin. You are acting like a lawyer and a missionary where you defend your position just because you choose it originally without being open. Anything said to you, you just continue to interpret it according to your needs. Good luck in understanding the truth, because with your attitude you will never learn.
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Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me. It builds character..
Im going to stop arguing with you (Bli Neder) becuase you refuse to listin. You are acting like a lawyer and a missionary where you defend your position just because you choose it originally without being open. Anything said to you, you just continue to interpret it according to your needs. Good luck in understanding the truth, because with your attitude you will never learn.
Cop out...that's all I have to say..you have refuted everything you have said and YOU are the one who refuses to listen...
btw...listen is spelled "listen" and not listin...learn how to spell.
and you call ME the missionary...LOLOLOL...just like an Arab..everything you claim me to be, you actual are...
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Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me. It builds character..
No, I moved it back here.
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Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me. It builds character..
No, I moved it back here.
don't think it will matter for long. Tzvi chickened out...Apparantly he thinks I'm a missionary for I don't know which religion...oddly enough he tries to send out all of the links and videos of his own style of theology...I just want him to learn to think for himself to be a better person for the future...but I guess my logic is too much for him...closemindedness is a bad thing.
I tend to notice this with a lot of Bukharians...
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Fascinating..i hear crickets...
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Not any more, I squished them.
I became confused after a couple of posts, what is the difference between what you and Tzvi ben roshel are saying?
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
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Not any more, I squished them.
I became confused after a couple of posts, what is the difference between what you and Tzvi ben roshel are saying?
really not much :)
if you look at a couple posts before, you'll see me summarizing what my argument is...we got off on a tangent about reincarnation and he refuses to argue with me because I use my personal logic and experience and not a rabbi's personal logic and experience.
I dont' want to argue with any rabbi..I want to argue with Tzvi and I want him to think for himself...You can't just live on someone else's advice your whole life!
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
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Wouldn't reincarnation be a bit of an odd idea in following ressurection..........when people are promised a good eternal life, they come back to the same planet?
What about the Day of Judgement? Isn't that a Jewish belief, shouldn't the world and all humans end on that day?
I don't believe in it.
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
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Something along this subject, and was mentioned much earlier. (I was told earlier, and I do listin to Rabbis who do mention many things, many times intertwined within the lessons (bringing together the different levels and learning from Torah) but this is something I just came across.
"The ban against studying Kabbalah was lifted by the efforts of the sixteenth century Kabbalist Rabbi Avraham Azulai (1570-1643).
I have found it written that all that has been decreed Above forbidding open involvement in the Wisdom of Truth [Kabbalah] was [only meant for] the limited time period until the year 5,250 (1490 C.E). From then on after is called the "Last Generation", and what was forbidden is [now] allowed. And permission is granted to occupy ourselves in the [study of] Zohar. And from the year 5,300 (1540 C.E.) it is most desirable that the masses both those great and small [in Torah], should occupy themselves [in the study of Kabbalah], as it says in the Raya M'hemna [a section of the Zohar]. And because in this merit King Mashiach will come in the future – and not in any other merit – it is not proper to be discouraged [from the study of Kabbalah]. (Rabbi Avraham Azulai)"
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One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
Tzvi, we aren't talking about murder...which is black and white..
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Like i said to Odekahanechai...If you want to believe in reincarnation fine...i dont' believe in it and don't put me down because i dont' believe in it...TO me the belief of reincarnation is a form of idolatry...I dont' want to be anywhere near that since Gd might punish me on the day of Judgement...But if you feel safe with it, fine with me...
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefardim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
-
Nope, there are Orthodox Jews such as myself who don't accept the Zohar since it was a forgery to begin with and it contains polytheism. The Yeminites are the largest group that doesn't accept it. Tzvi, it is you who needs to be enlightened and start looking into what R' Kahane said about not being a blind follower but actually thinking about the Torah on your own.
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Nope, there are Orthodox Jews such as myself who don't accept the Zohar since it was a forgery to begin with and it contains polytheism. The Yeminites are the largest group that doesn't accept it. Tzvi, it is you who needs to be enlightened and start looking into what R' Kahane said about not being a blind follower who but actually thinking about the Torah on your own.
No offense but who are you? You are not a Rav, and dont have a Rav. What you said is untrue, their was a Yeminite leader who said he doesn't accept (dont forget that they were disconnected from the rest of World Jewry), but most Yeminites do accept it. Also dont forget that the biggest Yeminite Rav is Rav Amnon Yitzhak, who does mention lessons from the Zohar, and also reincarnation (I rememer reading an essay where he describes what happened to Rav Akiva before he was Rabbi Akiva, etc). And if you want to mention Rav Kahane, at least his son mentions lessons taken from the Zohar and other Holy Books.
the reformers also preach "enlightment" aka the Haskalah movement, and we see what a disaster they have created.
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Correction- Rav Kahane also mentions some thing from the Zohar,
Check- Or' Hara'ayon (in English) pages- 906, 516, 900, 144 and 319
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Tzvi, that's your problem, unless I quote a Rabbi saying something you completely ignore it no matter how impeccable the logic or Torah proof. Then you go on and say that no one can say anything on his own without a Rabbi saying it (Besides the fact that you know there are valid Orthodox Rabbis who rejected the Zohar and reincarnation). Then you say that a person has to follow a single Rabbi on everything. That is not Torah, it is complete nonsense and stupidity. Such people as yourself can never understand the Talmud or the Oral Law since you are incapable of expanding the Torah, studying it deeply and deriving stuff on your own, you completely rely on a crutch which is your Rabbi to the extent that a baby relies on their mother. Rabbis are not supposed to be used as that, to be consulted on every tiny thing and blindly followed on everything they say and to never think on your own.
The primary Torah learning is supposed to be you yourself studying the Torah by yourself and consulting Rabbis only when you absolutely need their help, and when you do you are not obliged to follow everything one Rabbi says like a blind follower, if you are not satisfied with his answer since your Torah study reveals that he is wrong then you are free to consult another Rabbi or authority that is in line with the valid Torah truth you discover. Torah follows no loyalty to anyone except to G-d. I am not loyal to everything any Rabbi or authority says, not even R' Kahane Zs'l. I follow the Torah, period. It just so happens that the Torah truth I uncovered so far is mostly in line with what R' Kahane Zs'l says so I consider myself a follower of the Rav. And R' Kahane was the unique man he was and stood up against all the Orthodox Jews to free the Soviet Jews because he was not a blind follower but did exactly what I write here.
P.S. I already said that someone told me that he asked R' Kahane about this and he was unsure if the Zohar was really written by R' Shimon Bar Yochai or not so that's why he quotes it.
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Why would Rav Kahane write in his sefer lines from the Zohar if he believed to to be heresy and untrue as you state. He writes on page 906
The Holy Zohar, likewise often states that the Ishmaelites will atack the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael in the end of days. The Zohar, Bereshit, 199a, teaches, "At that time, the Ishmaelites will be aroused together with all the nations of the world to attack Jerusalem." The Zohar furthur teaches (Vaera, 32a, part of which was quoted previously): The Ishmaelites shall long have control over the Holy Land when it is empty... and will deter Israel from returning to their place...In the future, they will stir up major wars, and Edom's............................."
What do we see here? Rav Kahane mentiones and uses lessons from the Zohar and calls it the Holy Zohar.
- I would also like a list and contact to those so-called Orthodox Rabbis you have stored (I imagine what big army you have). I might be naive and a blind follower (of which im not) of which you call me, but at least the way you present yourself is- arrogance, in the way you feel you know everything on your own without the guidence and direction of a Tzaddik.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
-
Why would Rav Kahane write in his sefer lines from the Zohar if he believed to to be heresy and untrue as you state. He writes on page 906
The Holy Zohar, likewise often states that the Ishmaelites will atack the Jewish people and Eretz Yisrael in the end of days. The Zohar, Bereshit, 199a, teaches, "At that time, the Ishmaelites will be aroused together with all the nations of the world to attack Jerusalem." The Zohar furthur teaches (Vaera, 32a, part of which was quoted previously): The Ishmaelites shall long have control over the Holy Land when it is empty... and will deter Israel from returning to their place...In the future, they will stir up major wars, and Edom's............................."
What do we see here? Rav Kahane mentiones and uses lessons from the Zohar and calls it the Holy Zohar.
- I would also like a list and contact to those so-called Orthodox Rabbis you have stored (I imagine what big army you have). I might be naive and a blind follower (of which im not) of which you call me, but at least the way you present yourself is- arrogance, in the way you feel you know everything on your own without the guidence and direction of a Tzaddik.
Once again, like a muslim arab, everythign you claim JDL4ever to be you actually are doing...being arrogant in every which way.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Don't forget every single Chossid...
-
Tzvi, I was wondering what Yeshiva you go to as I never have come across someone with your beliefs.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Don't forget every single Chossid...
Once again, so what? naming rabbis who believe and don't believe in reincarnation doesn't prove its existance...
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?
;D just making up names.
-
I posted the list of the old Orthodox commentaries who called it heresy or a forgery in a previous thread where we talked about the Zohar. What bothers me is not that you accept the Zohar or Gilgul since you have Rabbis to follow, but that you don't know the logic as to why you accept it other than "my Rabbi accepts it" and you are usually unable to offer Torah support for your view or counter argue with the opposing viewpoint since you don't know any Torah on your own without asking your Rabbi. The most you said was a weak proof that possibly it can be interpuited that a Rabbi a few hundred years ago added a hint to Gilgul in a prayer and maybe R' Kahane believed in the Zohar (according to you, not me), note these are not Torah proofs but simply the Rabbi game you like to play. Also you have this horrible insane mentality that a simple Jew presenting Torah proof is irrelevant unless he is a Rabbi. I am a simple Jew trying to argue Torah and if you won't listen to my Torah on the basis of it's own merit or argue Torah with me but think that Torah was only created to be learned by Rabbis than I have nothing to say to you.
-
Tzvi, I was wondering what Yeshiva you go to as I never have come across someone with your beliefs.
I dont go to a Yeshiva full time. Now im in Queens College, I used to go to Ezra Academy, but now I learn in different places. When school starts again I will be learning with Rabbi Roth in the Queens College Hilel (you are welcome to join, nothing that hard). I do learn also in my Shul, also lectures on the internet, expecially www.torahanytime.com - its the best. Also I buy different books from time to time, and read them (for example Rav Kahane's books, Rabbi Nachman of Breslev - Likutei Moharan, and many others).
I dont understand by what you mean my beliefs? Its concidered the usual and normal. I suggest you just start with the website, which is great, im telling you man.
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?
;D just making up names.
Rabbi Ezrakhian is at the Park East synogogue in Manhattan, Rabbi Azriel Fellner is in Livingston, NJ, Rabbi Mirelman is now in Chicago, Rabbi Hezekiah Bender is in Yonkers, NY, Rabbi David Salzman (and there are a few) but this one is in a suburb of Seattle...should I keep going?
Rabbi Moshe Green (Far Rockaway), Rabbi Shua Fogel (I think in Lawerence NY) All Torah jewish Orthodox...and great educaters.
-
I posted the list of the old Orthodox commentaries who called it heresy or a forgery in a previous thread where we talked about the Zohar. What bothers me is not that you accept the Zohar or Gilgul since you have Rabbis to follow, but that you don't know the logic as to why you accept it other than "my Rabbi accepts it" and you are usually unable to offer Torah support for your view or counter argue with the opposing viewpoint since you don't know any Torah on your own without asking your Rabbi. The most you said was a weak proof that possibly it can be interpuited that a Rabbi a few hundred years ago added a hint to Gilgul in a prayer and maybe R' Kahane believed in the Zohar (according to you, not me), note these are not Torah proofs but simply the Rabbi game you like to play. Also you have this horrible insane mentality that a simple Jew presenting Torah proof is irrelevant unless he is a Rabbi. I am a simple Jew trying to argue Torah and if you won't listen to my Torah on the basis of it's own merit or argue Torah with me but think that Torah was only created to be learned by Rabbis than I have nothing to say to you.
No I acept it also becuase of the great Divine information it contains, something that no-one else knew, which leaves no doubt. For example.
THE ZOHAR PREDICTS THE INDUSTRIAL/ TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (I VAYERA 117a)
Every sixty years of the sixth millennium the gates of lower wisdom will strengthen and rise up gradually stronger. And after six hundred years of the sixth millennium there will be opened the gates of wisdom above and the fountains of wisdom below, and the world will make preparations to enter the seventh thousand as man makes preparations on the sixth day of the week [before Shabbat], when the sun is about to set. As a mnemonic to this we take the verse, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life . . . all the fountains of the great deep were broken up" (Gen. 7, 11).
WE ARE CURRENTLY IN 5762 WHICH IS EQUAL TO 2002
YEAR 600 OF THE 6TH MILLENNIUM EQUALS 5600 AND ONWARDS [JUST LIKE THE 21ST CENTURY CORRESPONDS TO 2000]
TODAY IS 5762 – 5600 = 162 YEARS AGO
2002 – 162 YEARS = 1840
IF YOU LOOK AT THE DISCOVERIES THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION AND ALL THE IMPROVEMENTS IN APPLIED SCIENCE: TRANSPORT, ENERGY, COMMUNICATIONS, ETC., THE BULK OF THEM STARTED TAKING PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT A GREAT DEAL OF THE DISCOVERIES TOOK PLACE THROUGH WHAT IS CALLED SERENDIPITY [MAKING USEFUL DISCOVERIES BY ACCIDENT]. AS IF TO FURTHER PROVE THE POINT, THAT SINCE IT WAS DECREED THAT MANY DISCOVERIES WOULD TAKE PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS THEN IT HAD TO HAPPEN WHETHER INTENTIONALLY OR NOT.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 17
8
THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH
DIFFERENT CLIMATES SHAPE THE FEATURES OF INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH
THE PERIOD OF ONLY DAY AND ONLY NIGHT AT THE POLES
THE EARTH IS SHAPED LIKE THE HUMAN EYE
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (VAYIKRA 10a)
“In the Book of Rab Hamnuna the Elder it is explained further that all the inhabited world rotates in a circle like a ball, so that some are above and some below, and the strange appearances of certain races are due to the nature of the air, each one according to his respective place but they live and are sustained as other men. There is a part of the inhabited world where it is light for some when in another part it is dark for others, so that some have night while others have day. Also there is a place where it is always day and where there is no night save for one short hour. All this account which is found in the books of the ancients and in the Book of Adam the first man is confirmed by Scripture, which says: "I will give thanks to you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made, wonderful are Your works" (Ps. , 15), and again, "O Lord, how manifold are Your works" (PS. 104, 24). This mystery" has been entrusted to the masters of wisdom,[The Rabbis and prophets who received the knowledge from the first man] but is not known to those who mark the boundaries because it is a deep mystery of the Torah.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 18
SO YOU CAN SEE IN ONE SMALL PARAGRAGH RABBI SHIMON BAR YOCHAI TELLS US IN THE ZOHAR THE FOLLOWING:
1- THE EARTH IS ROUND
2- IT ROTATES JUST LIKE A BALL
3- SOME PEOPLE ARE ABOVE AND SOME BELOW [YET THEY DON’T FALL]
4- APPEARANCE OF PEOPLE GO ACCORDING TO THE DIFFERENT CLIMATES
5- ROTATION PRODUCES DAY AND NIGHT AT THE SAME TIME IN DIFFERENT PLACES
6- THE LENGTH OF DAYLIGHT AT THE POLES
7- RABBIS KNEW ABOUT THESE THINGS BUT NOT GEOGRAPHERS
HERE ARE ANOTHER 2 PORTIONS FROM THE ZOHAR WHICH SHOW YOU ITS KNOWLEDGE MORE THAN 1500 YEARS AGO OF THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
(ZOHAR VAYECHI 226a)
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
The human eye represents the world with its various colors. The outer ring of white corresponds to the Oceans that surround the whole world. The next color represents the land that is surrounded by the Seas. A third color in the middle of the eye corresponds to Yerushalaim which is in the center of the world. Finally there is the pupil of the eye, which reflects the onlooker and is the most precious part of all and it corresponds to Tzion which is the central point of the Universe, in which the reflection of the entire world can be seen.
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
[ZOHAR II, 222b]
Now, the earth's expansion round the central point was completed in three concentric rings, each of a different hue and texture. The first ring, the nearest to the Point, is of the purest and most refined earth-material; the second expansion, surrounding the first, is of a less
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 19
polished, less refined earth-material than the first, but is superior to the one surrounding it; the third expansion consists of the darkest and coarsest earth-material of all. Then, surrounding that expansion, come the waters of the ocean that surrounds the whole world. Thus the point is in the center, and the various expansions encircle it. The first expansion embraces the Sanctuary and all its courts and enclosures and all its appurtenances, as well as the whole city of Jerusalem bounded by the wall; the second expansion embraces the whole of the Land of Israel, the Land which was declared holy; the third expansion comprehends the rest of the earth, the dwelling-place of all the other nations. Then comes the great ocean which surrounds the whole. The whole arrangement is symbolized by the structure of the human eye. For just as in the human eye there are three concentric layers surrounding a central point, which forms the focus of vision, so is the world's vision focused in the central point, consisting of the Holy of Holies and the Ark and the Mercy Seat. Hence the description, "a beautiful bowery, the joy of the whole earth", "beautiful" in its appearance, and radiating joy to the whole world. It is compared to a "bowery" because the beauty of a tree is displayed in its branches. Observe that true beauty and symmetry were not manifested in the world until the Tabernacle was finally erected and the Ark brought within the Holy of Holies. From that moment the world appeared at its best, it attained its just balance, and a way was opened through the Tabernacle and past the Ark up to that Point.
It is he who sits upon the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are as grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40:22)
He stretches out the north over the void, and hangs the earth upon nothing. (Job 26:7)
From -Israel613.com
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?
;D just making up names.
Rabbi Ezrakhian is at the Park East synogogue in Manhattan, Rabbi Azriel Fellner is in Livingston, NJ, Rabbi Mirelman is now in Chicago, Rabbi Hezekiah Bender is in Yonkers, NY, Rabbi David Salzman (and there are a few) but this one is in a suburb of Seattle...should I keep going?
Rabbi Moshe Green (Far Rockaway), Rabbi Shua Fogel (I think in Lawerence NY) All Torah jewish Orthodox...and great educaters.
Okay give me their # so I can call and ask. And how do you know what position they take? Did they mention it in a lecture, or book, etc.
-
I posted the list of the old Orthodox commentaries who called it heresy or a forgery in a previous thread where we talked about the Zohar. What bothers me is not that you accept the Zohar or Gilgul since you have Rabbis to follow, but that you don't know the logic as to why you accept it other than "my Rabbi accepts it" and you are usually unable to offer Torah support for your view or counter argue with the opposing viewpoint since you don't know any Torah on your own without asking your Rabbi. The most you said was a weak proof that possibly it can be interpuited that a Rabbi a few hundred years ago added a hint to Gilgul in a prayer and maybe R' Kahane believed in the Zohar (according to you, not me), note these are not Torah proofs but simply the Rabbi game you like to play. Also you have this horrible insane mentality that a simple Jew presenting Torah proof is irrelevant unless he is a Rabbi. I am a simple Jew trying to argue Torah and if you won't listen to my Torah on the basis of it's own merit or argue Torah with me but think that Torah was only created to be learned by Rabbis than I have nothing to say to you.
No I acept it also becuase of the great Divine information it contains, something that no-one else knew, which leaves no doubt. For example.
THE ZOHAR PREDICTS THE INDUSTRIAL/ TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (I VAYERA 117a)
Every sixty years of the sixth millennium the gates of lower wisdom will strengthen and rise up gradually stronger. And after six hundred years of the sixth millennium there will be opened the gates of wisdom above and the fountains of wisdom below, and the world will make preparations to enter the seventh thousand as man makes preparations on the sixth day of the week [before Shabbat], when the sun is about to set. As a mnemonic to this we take the verse, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life . . . all the fountains of the great deep were broken up" (Gen. 7, 11).
WE ARE CURRENTLY IN 5762 WHICH IS EQUAL TO 2002
YEAR 600 OF THE 6TH MILLENNIUM EQUALS 5600 AND ONWARDS [JUST LIKE THE 21ST CENTURY CORRESPONDS TO 2000]
TODAY IS 5762 – 5600 = 162 YEARS AGO
2002 – 162 YEARS = 1840
IF YOU LOOK AT THE DISCOVERIES THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION AND ALL THE IMPROVEMENTS IN APPLIED SCIENCE: TRANSPORT, ENERGY, COMMUNICATIONS, ETC., THE BULK OF THEM STARTED TAKING PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT A GREAT DEAL OF THE DISCOVERIES TOOK PLACE THROUGH WHAT IS CALLED SERENDIPITY [MAKING USEFUL DISCOVERIES BY ACCIDENT]. AS IF TO FURTHER PROVE THE POINT, THAT SINCE IT WAS DECREED THAT MANY DISCOVERIES WOULD TAKE PLACE FROM 1800 AND ONWARDS THEN IT HAD TO HAPPEN WHETHER INTENTIONALLY OR NOT.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 17
8
THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH
DIFFERENT CLIMATES SHAPE THE FEATURES OF INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH
THE PERIOD OF ONLY DAY AND ONLY NIGHT AT THE POLES
THE EARTH IS SHAPED LIKE THE HUMAN EYE
IT IS WRITTEN IN THE ZOHAR (VAYIKRA 10a)
“In the Book of Rab Hamnuna the Elder it is explained further that all the inhabited world rotates in a circle like a ball, so that some are above and some below, and the strange appearances of certain races are due to the nature of the air, each one according to his respective place but they live and are sustained as other men. There is a part of the inhabited world where it is light for some when in another part it is dark for others, so that some have night while others have day. Also there is a place where it is always day and where there is no night save for one short hour. All this account which is found in the books of the ancients and in the Book of Adam the first man is confirmed by Scripture, which says: "I will give thanks to you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made, wonderful are Your works" (Ps. , 15), and again, "O Lord, how manifold are Your works" (PS. 104, 24). This mystery" has been entrusted to the masters of wisdom,[The Rabbis and prophets who received the knowledge from the first man] but is not known to those who mark the boundaries because it is a deep mystery of the Torah.
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 18
SO YOU CAN SEE IN ONE SMALL PARAGRAGH RABBI SHIMON BAR YOCHAI TELLS US IN THE ZOHAR THE FOLLOWING:
1- THE EARTH IS ROUND
2- IT ROTATES JUST LIKE A BALL
3- SOME PEOPLE ARE ABOVE AND SOME BELOW [YET THEY DON’T FALL]
4- APPEARANCE OF PEOPLE GO ACCORDING TO THE DIFFERENT CLIMATES
5- ROTATION PRODUCES DAY AND NIGHT AT THE SAME TIME IN DIFFERENT PLACES
6- THE LENGTH OF DAYLIGHT AT THE POLES
7- RABBIS KNEW ABOUT THESE THINGS BUT NOT GEOGRAPHERS
HERE ARE ANOTHER 2 PORTIONS FROM THE ZOHAR WHICH SHOW YOU ITS KNOWLEDGE MORE THAN 1500 YEARS AGO OF THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
(ZOHAR VAYECHI 226a)
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
The human eye represents the world with its various colors. The outer ring of white corresponds to the Oceans that surround the whole world. The next color represents the land that is surrounded by the Seas. A third color in the middle of the eye corresponds to Yerushalaim which is in the center of the world. Finally there is the pupil of the eye, which reflects the onlooker and is the most precious part of all and it corresponds to Tzion which is the central point of the Universe, in which the reflection of the entire world can be seen.
THE EYE AND THE SHAPE OF THE EARTH
[ZOHAR II, 222b]
Now, the earth's expansion round the central point was completed in three concentric rings, each of a different hue and texture. The first ring, the nearest to the Point, is of the purest and most refined earth-material; the second expansion, surrounding the first, is of a less
TO HAVE MORE FAITH IN G-D AND HIS TORAH 19
polished, less refined earth-material than the first, but is superior to the one surrounding it; the third expansion consists of the darkest and coarsest earth-material of all. Then, surrounding that expansion, come the waters of the ocean that surrounds the whole world. Thus the point is in the center, and the various expansions encircle it. The first expansion embraces the Sanctuary and all its courts and enclosures and all its appurtenances, as well as the whole city of Jerusalem bounded by the wall; the second expansion embraces the whole of the Land of Israel, the Land which was declared holy; the third expansion comprehends the rest of the earth, the dwelling-place of all the other nations. Then comes the great ocean which surrounds the whole. The whole arrangement is symbolized by the structure of the human eye. For just as in the human eye there are three concentric layers surrounding a central point, which forms the focus of vision, so is the world's vision focused in the central point, consisting of the Holy of Holies and the Ark and the Mercy Seat. Hence the description, "a beautiful bowery, the joy of the whole earth", "beautiful" in its appearance, and radiating joy to the whole world. It is compared to a "bowery" because the beauty of a tree is displayed in its branches. Observe that true beauty and symmetry were not manifested in the world until the Tabernacle was finally erected and the Ark brought within the Holy of Holies. From that moment the world appeared at its best, it attained its just balance, and a way was opened through the Tabernacle and past the Ark up to that Point.
It is he who sits upon the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are as grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40:22)
He stretches out the north over the void, and hangs the earth upon nothing. (Job 26:7)
From -Israel613.com
You cut and paster!!!
although i do have to admire your intelligence...
-
One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the Torah, and the sages).
Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:
the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these :) )
Master of the universe! I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account. May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you, Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).
Ok, what's this prayer, first off about? It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us. The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...
To your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong. However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.
You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point :)
Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it? read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.
Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?
it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...
Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last. Second of all, how is it "poetry"? You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...
no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...
And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..
Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..
But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"? That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject. Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?
Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.
I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?
It's poetry...
It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!
It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.
Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse." The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.
Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).
But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."
ummm...that's all you have? you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point.
Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home? Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...
First of all, I'm not married yet. ;D
Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.
my answer is in the example I gave:
I am so hungry (literal)
that i can eat a horse (allegory)
you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.
No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse." There is no reason for the "switch."
There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!
You just proved my point with that...
My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively? It's not something the Rabbis would do.
now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...
I don't buy it.
it's allegory..not literal...
and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?
It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!
You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong." Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...
And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism." They are saying it just like any other fact. It is an entirely literal passage.
I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...
But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.
Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.
we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...
Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefaradim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital). So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).
Rabbi Shlomo, Rabbi Fellner, Rabbi Kranstein, Rabbi Mirmelstein, Rabbi Hoffman, Rabbi Hershel...
want more?
Yea, their phone numbers and places where they are the Leaders. (also what would be more impressive would be someone big, someone who is recognized as a big Rav, with a lot of Daat Knowledge- for example my side Has the Vilna Gaon ZTL, the Holy Ari ZTL, Rav Kahane, ZTL HYD Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, Rav Amnon Yitzhak Shita, Rabbi Mizrahi, any many many more. -
Rabbi ezrakhian, Rabbi Hezekiah, Rabbi David Salzman, Rabbi Daniel Salzman, Rabbi Shenkel, Rabbi Barukh Brookhim, Rabbi Barukhian, Rabbi Moussa Melamed...want more?
;D just making up names.
Rabbi Ezrakhian is at the Park East synogogue in Manhattan, Rabbi Azriel Fellner is in Livingston, NJ, Rabbi Mirelman is now in Chicago, Rabbi Hezekiah Bender is in Yonkers, NY, Rabbi David Salzman (and there are a few) but this one is in a suburb of Seattle...should I keep going?
Rabbi Moshe Green (Far Rockaway), Rabbi Shua Fogel (I think in Lawerence NY) All Torah jewish Orthodox...and great educaters.
Okay give me their # so I can call and ask. And how do you know what position they take? Did they mention it in a lecture, or book, etc.
these are rabbis I have learned with and asked about reincarnation. These are actual human beings that don't go on the computer to missionize and lecture to the masses.
You want their numbers to ask? hahahahahah..why dont' you provide the phone numbers of your rabbis? You're such balogna!!!
sick sick person...name rabbis and their location and their phone numbers...oh and if they are orthodox and if they go to follow the teachers of Jerusalem in 1840 and if they have white full beards and if they...SCREW YOU!!!
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So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.
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YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .
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So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.
the rabbis i mentioned are not on any websites i know of...sorry my days are not focused around studying Talmud with Rabbi A and Rabbi B and Rabbi C and Rabbi X and Rabbi blah blah...I have a job where I treat patients on a dailiy basis...you're in school, you have time on yoru hands and you have your future professional life choices ahead of you. I chose mine already..and it definately wasn't to become a rabbi or be even remotely close to being one...so let me be the Periodontist I chose to become..
Sorry, i dont' keep a phone number of any rabbis in my palm pilot or cell phone...And I thank Gd that I don't need to do that because I like to meet new people everywhere I go..and I am decent judge of character...Some rabbis are very smart but are terrible in spreading a message.
Bottom line, Rabbis are mortal and are human beings..
The wise and the fool have the same end.
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YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .
nuf said, i called that number and it wasn't Rabbi Mizrahi...
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So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.
the rabbis i mentioned are not on any websites i know of...sorry my days are not focused around studying Talmud with Rabbi A and Rabbi B and Rabbi C and Rabbi X and Rabbi blah blah...
So then maybe you ought to learn some more Talmud... ::)
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YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .
nuf said, i called that number and it wasn't Rabbi Mizrahi...
It says so on his website - http://divineinformation.com/contact_us/default.asp
"To contact Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi please call (917) 418-4141 "
I dont want to call right now because it might be late, for some reason I dont belive you, but either way that's what it says on his website. - if you really still want to get in touch with him, I can ask someone or go to his lecture on wensday nights at Beit Gavriel 108th street.
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So? we are looking for the knowledge and information, and not how hard it took to get it. I also posted that I got it from that website.
the rabbis i mentioned are not on any websites i know of...sorry my days are not focused around studying Talmud with Rabbi A and Rabbi B and Rabbi C and Rabbi X and Rabbi blah blah...
So then maybe you ought to learn some more Talmud... ::)
no I ought to live my life, work at my profession, get married, raise my kids and in between gain as much knowledge about the world and when i get tired of the world open up the talmud and Torah and get inspired...and then once i'm bored with that go back to the world and so goes the earth around and around and around.
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YOur latest post, was uncalled for. I just wanted to get their # so I can ask them. Rav Amnon Yitzhak- has an essay- so you dont have to ask him, Rav Ovadia Yosef stated what he did publicly, The Vilna Gaon ZTL passed away, but did leave his writing on this subject, and Rabbi Mizrahi can be reached at (917) 418-4141 .
nuf said, i called that number and it wasn't Rabbi Mizrahi...
It says so on his website - http://divineinformation.com/contact_us/default.asp
"To contact Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi please call (917) 418-4141 "
I dont want to call right now because it might be late, for some reason I dont belive you, but either way that's what it says on his website. - if you really still want to get in touch with him, I can ask someone or go to his lecture on wensday nights at Beit Gavriel 108th street.
It's not important because i don't appreciate the disrespect you have given me from the get go of joining this forum... I'm not interested and it's nothing against him personally. It's not important to me whether or not reincarnation exists or whether you want to believe in it or not...I just get astounded when i see Jews so one sided and blind and have no sense of open mindedness or consideration of what is on this planet earth in this current lifetime...It's such a waste to think the way you do this young an age.
I say go learn..but live your life and enjoy what's out there in the world and learn from people and dont' treat others who migh tnot be as religious or as learned in jewish texts as you with disdain..It's just disgusting, Tzvi, your arrogance towards me and others who disagree with you...just SICK!!! You flaunt your knowledge like you are high and mighty...but nobody will love you for it..and you'll be alone for the rest of your life because of it because nobody likes a shmuck like you.
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Mods please lock this topic - there's no need for insults.
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no..there is a need for insults because i'm being insulted as a human being by Tzvi! so suck it up and be a man!
he does not know how to treat fellow jews properly and thumbs his nose at people like me as inferior...yet it is HE who is ignorant.
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::) , you insult me and its my fault? I never insulted you, yes when you write things that are WRONG about Judasim I correct you and tell you, you are wrong (as every Jew has an obligation to do so, and not only because about you, but also because everyone else here could read it and think the wrong things). You resorting to this shows that you officially lost, (alltough I was confident from the beginning, becuase I dont bring my opinion, but base and write everything from Wise men- our Holy Rabbis- as to not make a mistake).
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::) , you insult me and its my fault? I never insulted you, yes when you write things that are WRONG about Judasim I correct you and tell you, you are wrong (as every Jew has an obligation to do so, and not only because about you, but also because everyone else here could read it and think the wrong things). You resorting to this shows that you officially lost, (alltough I was confident from the beginning, becuase I dont bring my opinion, but base and write everything from Wise men- our Holy Rabbis- as to not make a mistake).
you thumb your nose at my face thinking you are superior to me...you show no respect for other ideas except for your own rabbis....