JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on February 10, 2008, 10:21:57 PM
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Hello--
I have a simple question I'd like an answer for. I know many people at JTF are fond of the Sephardic Torah Scholar Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. I'd like for one or more of those who support him to answer a basic question I have:
Can you please explain, from Torahic/Talmudic sources, his ruling that Arab life is worth sparing, even if it requires ceding Jewish land?
I am asking this very respectfully, and will not argue with your answer. I'd just like to hear the basis for this belief that he has.
Chaimfan
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Hello--
I have a simple question I'd like an answer for. I know many people at JTF are fond of the Sefardic Torah Scholar Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. I'd like for one or more of those who support him to answer a basic question I have:
Can you please explain, from Torahic/Talmudic sources, his ruling that Arab life is worth sparing, even if it requires ceding Jewish land?
I am asking this very respectfully, and will not argue with your answer. I'd just like to hear the basis for this belief that he has.
Chaimfan
And where does he state this Halacha anywhere?
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Tzvi, I can tell you something which Mr. Yosef is famous for saying and that is land may be given away to the muslims. Everyone knows he said that. Now, do you have to hear anything else because that is certainly bad enough. What kind of piece of drek would give away land that jews dreamed for so long of returning to? This is a frightening individual who seems to value Islamic life over jewish ones.
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Tzvi, I can tell you something which Mr. Yosef is famous for saying and that is land may be given away to the muslims. Everyone knows he said that. Now, do you have to hear anything else because that is certainly bad enough. What kind of piece of drek would give away land that jews dreamed for so long of returning to? This is a frightening individual who seems to value Islamic life over jewish ones.
The question above was asked about arab safety, where does the Rav state anything to do with that, what he said was land for Peace (Jewish peace), I understand that people dont agree, etc. but its a lie to say that he said land for the safety of arabs. In fact some time ago the media was outraged where he called arabs snakes and said that they all should be killed.
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Ok tzvi, since you acknowledged that Mr. Yosef did say that land for peace was ok, lets discuss that as well as the reason this butcher allows his "party" to remain in this evil regime. How could any legit rabbi take a land for peace position? Their is no difference between Yosefs position and Yossi beilins in this regard. The fact that this snake allows his party to soak in Ehud Smolmerts immoral bathtub tells us everything about his morals and core. Tzvi, I would hope you forget about this beast and stop worshiping him. I understand you are very religious and want a connection to a rabbi. Why cant you find a real right wing rabbi who believes in kahanist principles? Why don't you ask Chaim for a recommendation of who to contact? I am sure you can find someone more worthy of your following than this big self indulgent piece of drek known as "Rabbi Yosef."
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One thing has to be understood about Rav Ovadia Shlita, is that his main concern and perspective is different then what others like us might feel and think about the Jewish state. His main concern and belief is for the continued survival of the Jewish people not necessarily as a nation with an army etc. but as a people with the Torah, and keeping the laws available for now, and THEN when the Messiah comes their will be the full state, and real peace etc. His true opinion probably is that the zionists did not bring the ultimate redemption, nor will it necessarily be the catalyst for the redemption. So using the government, and the system best would be to keep building Yeshivot, Mikva's, and other religious places, etc. for the continual Religious and social welfare of Jews specifically the underprivlidged Sefardi Jews.
With that said from their perspective giving away gaza wouldnt be a problem from an idealogical (bringing glory to the nation) perspective, but would from the fact that many Jews suffered, etc.
These thing, expecially the Kanesset process is complicated, one thing that can be seen is that expecially Shas is criticized for doing anything, becuase the people who are doing that first have hatred and then find their excuse and reason, but why arent the good points or the benifit of a doubt given? Also things need to be given some time before criticizing and even worse calling names agains't a Talmid Hacham, which is a great sin and punishment to do.
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I wont contine to talk and debate with someone who uses vicious name calling agains't a Rav. All I will say is give it some time, you will see that the gov. will fall, etc.
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What does the government have to do with the sin against giving away one inch of the land to the enemy?
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Tzvi, you are not thinking about this logically. Their is no explanation for supporting a party that met Yassir Arafat on the same day they threw Chaim out of Israel. I am very sorry but their is no way. If Mr. Yosef has the beliefs you described then I think evel less of him than I did before. Whatever his reasoning may be, is it ok to give away land when he knows that it will kill jews. I mean cmon. I also won't debate you on this as you can see no wrong in this man.
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The whole thing is backwards. He claims we should give away land to save Jewish life, because the life is more important than the land. It is true that the life is more important than the land, however, giving away land endangers all the Jewish lives there!
So his premise is right, but his conclusion is downright dangerous to all of us.
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What does the government have to do with the sin against giving away one inch of the land to the enemy?
I was thinking the same thing. I just don't understand why so many sefardim support this savage and his cronies. Many of the people who support that party are good people but they are so confused. Would they still support Mr Yosef if he was caught with a hooker in the basement of shas headquarters?
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The premise is also wrong ... a certain Kohen Gadol in Tanach comes to mind who tried to do that and surrender to Sennacherib and the Assyrians. G-d called him wicked along with the majority of Israel who supported him and he suffered a painful death.
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The premise is also wrong ... a certain Kohen Gadol in Tanach comes to mind who tried to do that. G-d called him wicked and he suffered a painful death.
I believe that Mr Yosefs only ambition is to stuff as much gelt into his pockets as humanly possible. That is why he supports giving away land and all his farshtunken positions. If he took right wing positions then he wouldn't get all the earmarks for his causes that he currently gets. That is also why more shas ministers are in prison then any other party, because the whole point of the party is to collect money.
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Talking about hookers in basements, my father went to a respected Chassidish high school in Brooklyn 30 years ago and some of his closest Chassidish friends (all from good families with the full garb) told him that they went to hookers.
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Talking about hookers in basements, my father went to a respected Chassidish high school in Brooklyn 30 years ago and some of his closest Chassidish friends (all from good families with the full garb) told him that they went to hookers.
You mean when your father was in high school, his classmates went to hookers? I mean it is well known that many Boro Park and Williamsburg Jews go to prostitutes. I heard about it from so many people but I would love to catch one. I can't imagine how a chasidic guy with the whole garb would look going to a whore. They are embarrassing the jewish religion and g-d in a very severe way. That must be some terrible sin.
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Talking about hookers in basements, my father went to a respected Chassidish high school in Brooklyn 30 years ago and some of his closest Chassidish friends (all from good families with the full garb) told him that they went to hookers.
So you just spoke lashon hara about a group of Jews, putting down a whole group, even in front of a (at least 1) member on the forum who is in that category.
Latly everyones hatred is popping up, one by one, who will continue and show their true colors? Is everyone drunk tonight or something? ::) shame on you.
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I wont contine to talk and debate with someone who uses vicious name calling agains't a Rav. All I will say is give it some time, you will see that the gov. will fall, etc.
Tzvi, I understand where you're coming from. As a BT myself, I want to be extra precautious about lobbing insults at an esteemed rabbi, especially a talmud chachim like Rav Yosef. So a discussion of his halachic rulings should be limited to the ruling and its legitimacy or lackthereof. We can conclude it is errant without insulting the man's integrity. But still.... If we cannot find a true halachic precedent behind his ruling, when we judge the behavior of his party Shas, which is notoriously corrupt in Israel, there is a question of how far does self-restraint go and when does it become legitimate to criticize or question agenda/motives? I myself am rather an am haaretz, so I don't presume to know this fine balance or be in a position to cross the line. But the problem for us Jews today is that... There is NO leader stepping up and doing it. Nobody who DOES have the standing to be able to vocally criticize, is doing so. Esteemed learned rabbis DO have the authority to dispute (bitterly dispute) other rabbis whose rulings contradict their own Torah wisdom. Things were different in the past. Rabbi Yaacov Emden, Rambam, many others, had no reservations about angry halachic disputes for the sake of Heaven. We had Rabbi Kahane to take a stand against the establishment positions, but since him, what leader is there who is not bound by the shackles of nicety and respect above the fight for truth of Torah? Who is on a level that can legitimately challenge the authority of others while also having the chutzpah to do so? It seems either all of today's great Torah scholars agree wholeheartedly or are unwilling to dispute one another publicly to challenge the status quo in any way.
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Downwithislam; you got it right. Some of his classmates confessed that they went to hookers, so my father says probably a lot more did the same thing. This was an entirely Chassidish school, my father being the rare non Chassid but he had to dress like one to go there. So looks don't mean anything. That's the lesson to the story. My father may dress normally but he's far superior than those scum who "learn half a day", dress in the full Chassidish garb and go to hookers on the side.
And Tzvi, this is a true story. I didn't make it up. Just because you don't want to believe it does not make it untrue. And you don't know the first thing about what is Loshon Hara and what is not so don't show your ignorance and be quiet. I didn't say all the Chassidim go to hookers, just that in the 1970's some of my father's Chassidish classmates in a respectable fully Chassidish high school in boro park confessed to seeing hookers. Interpret it as you feel fit. We will never know how many did this, if it was the majority or the minority.
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
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Downwithislam; you got it right. Some of his classmates confessed that they went to hookers, so my father says probably a lot more did the same thing. This was an entirely Chassidish school, my father being the rare non Chassid but he had to dress like one to go there. So looks don't mean anything. That's the lesson to the story. My father may dress normally but he's far superior than those scum who "learn half a day", dress in the full Chassidish garb and go to hookers on the side.
And Tzvi, this is a true story. I didn't make it up. Just because you don't want to believe it does not make it untrue. And you don't know the first thing about what is Loshon Hara and what is not so don't show your ignorance and be quiet.
Jdl4ever, I know every word you are saying is true. Usually its the anti zionist chasidim that also go to whores because the whole reason they are in america is too be comfortable. These savages believe in nothing. Now back to our original discussion. Tzvi, being kind to the cruel is evil. Mr Yosef is a wicked serpent who walks around in beautiful clothes and with a nice golden stick, saying that land needs to be given away while jews are being blown up and kassamed to death. The mere fact that he is sitting in that govt right now means that he wants jews in those rocket battered towns to die a miserable death. I think that is true hatred. Mr Yosef is a danger to jews.
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state. Yosefs land for peace was just a front to stick more gelt into his gatkes.
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Downwithislam; you got it right. Some of his classmates confessed that they went to hookers, so my father says probably a lot more did the same thing. This was an entirely Chassidish school, my father being the rare non Chassid but he had to dress like one to go there. So looks don't mean anything. That's the lesson to the story. My father may dress normally but he's far superior than those scum who "learn half a day", dress in the full Chassidish garb and go to hookers on the side.
And Tzvi, this is a true story. I didn't make it up. Just because you don't want to believe it does not make it untrue. And you don't know the first thing about what is Loshon Hara and what is not so don't show your ignorance and be quiet. I didn't say all the Chassidim go to hookers, just that in the 1970's some of my father's Chassidish classmates in a respectable fully Chassidish high school in boro park confessed to seeing hookers. Interpret it as you feel fit. We will never know how many did this, if it was the majority or the minority.
Jdl4ever, did they visit the prostitute with their whole chasidic garb on or did they put their streimel in the closet and put on some cargoes before they headed out to the whore?
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
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Jdl4ever, did they visit the prostitute with their whole chasidic garb on or did they put their streimel in the closet and put on some cargoes before they headed out to the whore?
I don't have the answer. My father doesn't like to talk about it as he just told me recently about this.
I personally have probably seen a married Chussid in the full garb with a Polish mistress though about 3 years ago; although I don't have definite proof but merely circumstantial evidence. He had a complicated scheme so his wife won't find out about it. He owned a catering business and told his family and us that he needed to buy a second apartment close to the business since he is so busy. Well we had an apartment in that building we were moving out of and the guy wanted to buy some of our used stuff to fill his new apartment. Him and his Polish female worker in his business which was really his mistress were choosing what they wanted for their apartment or bachelor pad. Interesting how the worker was choosing everything for the apartment like she was going to live there and acted like such a good friend of the Chossud. My family saw the same thing and told me that she was definitely his mistress; I withhold judgment without definite proof. ???
Anyways, back to the thread about Shas.
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
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Jdl4ever, did they visit the prostitute with their whole chasidic garb on or did they put their streimel in the closet and put on some cargoes before they headed out to the whore?
I don't have the answer. My father doesn't like to talk about it as he just told me recently about this.
I personally have probably seen a married Chussid in the full garb with a Polish mistress though about 3 years ago; although I don't have definite proof but merely circumstantial evidence. He had a complicated scheme so his wife won't find out about it. He owned a catering business and told his family and us that he needed to buy a second apartment close to the business since he is so busy. Well we had an apartment in that building we were moving out of and the guy wanted to buy some of our used stuff to fill his new apartment. Him and his Polish female worker in his business which was really his mistress were choosing what they wanted for their apartment or bachelor pad. Interesting how the worker was choosing everything for the apartment like she was going to live there and acted like such a good friend of the Chossud. My family saw the same thing and told me that she was definitely his mistress; I withhold judgment without definite proof. ???
Anyways, back to the thread about Shas.
Thats so interesting. These are the same people who used to call in to Larry king when Rabbi Kahane was a guest and tell him that he is not loyal to america when in fact these chasdic monsters are not loyal to anyone. Jdl4ever, I was wondering if you have any comments to make on shas and Mr yosef. Maybe you can help me convince people here that he is a danger.
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Obviously I think Shas is an evil party. They merely want hand outs from the government to support their Yeshivot and themselves and are willing to do anything to keep the money flowing. They really believe in right wing Torah ideology in theory but not in practice since they bend it whenever the government threatens to stop the money train. That's why you hear all these riddles, u turns and contradictory statements from the party. They try to be as right wing as they could get without stopping the money train and they try to make excuses to justify their evil behavior by saying that they are really making the gov't more right wing by not giving in to everything the leftists want; like they make a big deal that they will pull out from the gov't to make a headline and claim they are really making the left do things their way. In reality the gov't is changed very little by their presence and every major evil thing the gov't does is eventually supported by Shas either indirectly by not pulling out or directly. But they are no different than any other party in Israel as the whole system is corrupt.
I don't call Orthodox Rabbis derogatory names in public since it sends a bad message that you could treat Rabbis disrespectfully. I just will say that R' Ovadia Yosef is against the Torah in my opinion. When I saw him in synagague and had the opportunity to shake his hand, I did not go to shake his hand.
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JDL4EVER, I have to agree with you that the problems you address exist within the Chassidic community. However, most of the Chassidim here do not engage in that kind of behavior.
Every tree grows a couple of rotten fruit. It isn't fair to paint a whole community with one brush.
The truth is, every sect has it's rotten fruit. The "Religious Zionists" have their share of rotten people too. So do the "Moder Orthodox" and everyone else.
DownWithIslam, Ovadia Yosef thinks that he has his own way of saving the Jewish people. He thinks that as long as the Israeli government will continue to support his Yeshivot and communities, that is all that is important. I'm not sure if he is just plain 'ole stupid, evil, or simply sorely mistaken.
Either way, history supports our position here at JTF.
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Obviously I think Shas is an evil party. They merely want hand outs from the government to support their Yeshivot and themselves and are willing to do anything to keep the money flowing. They really believe in right wing Torah ideology in theory but not in practice since they bend it whenever the government threatens to stop the money train. That's why you hear all these riddles, u turns and contradictory statements from the party. They try to be as right wing as they could get without stopping the money train and they try to make excuses to justify their evil behavior by saying that they are really making the gov't more right wing by not giving in to everything the leftists want; like they make a big deal that they will pull out from the gov't to make a headline and claim they are really making the left do things their way. In reality the gov't is changed very little by their presence and every major evil thing the gov't does is eventually supported by Shas either indirectly by not pulling out or directly. But they are no different than any other party in Israel as the whole system is corrupt.
I don't call Orthodox Rabbis derogatory names in public since it sends a bad message that you could treat Rabbis disrespectfully. I just will say that R' Ovadia Yosef is against the Torah in my opinion. When I saw him in synagague and had the opportunity to shake his hand, I did not go to shake his hand.
I am sure you didn't miss much by not shaking his hand. That hand his touched more stolen money that most people on this earth. The fact that he poses as a rabbi is a chilul hashem. His evil decrees have been made famous and they send a bad message fooling people into thinking that surrendering land is kosher.
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JDL4EVER, I have to agree with you that the problems you address exist within the Chassidic community. However, most of the Chassidim here do not engage in that kind of behavior.
Every tree grows a couple of rotten fruit. It isn't fair to paint a whole community with one brush.
The truth is, every sect has it's rotten fruit. The "Religious Zionists" have their share of rotten people too. So do the "Moder Orthodox" and everyone else.
DownWithIslam, Ovadia Yosef thinks that he has his own way of saving the Jewish people. He thinks that as long as the Israeli government will continue to support his Yeshivot and communities, that is all that is important. I'm not sure if he is just plain 'ole stupid, evil, or simply sorely mistaken.
Either way, history supports our position here at JTF.
Yisrael, I believe that Yosef is plain evil. Endangering jewish life to stuff your pockets is the most vile kappo like thing on earth.
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Yisrael, I believe that Yosef is plain evil.
You are prob right.
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It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.
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It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.
agreed.
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It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.
I hear ya...
Question: How much evil must you do to be evil?
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The whole thing is backwards. He claims we should give away land to save Jewish life, because the life is more important than the land. It is true that the life is more important than the land, however, giving away land endangers all the Jewish lives there!
So his premise is right, but his conclusion is downright dangerous to all of us.
I thought he meant that it is preferable to spare Arab lives than to go to war with the Arabs in order to keep Jewish land. Are you sure he does not care about Arabs?
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The whole thing is backwards. He claims we should give away land to save Jewish life, because the life is more important than the land. It is true that the life is more important than the land, however, giving away land endangers all the Jewish lives there!
So his premise is right, but his conclusion is downright dangerous to all of us.
I thought he meant that it is preferable to spare Arab lives than to go to war with the Arabs in order to keep Jewish land. Are you sure he does not care about Arabs?
Pretty sure that's not what his argument is about.
The Rebbe a few times did, however, say that not giving away land is better for the Arabs too.
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It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.
I hear ya...
Question: How much evil must you do to be evil?
Truth? Really everybody has SOME good in them. The good might be so little and the bad so great that we need to kill them, but nobody is really pure evil. Only in the realm of the angels is there pure evil or even pure good.
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It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.
I hear ya...
Question: How much evil must you do to be evil?
Truth? Really everybody has SOME good in them. The good might be so little and the bad so great that we need to kill them, but nobody is really pure evil. Only in the realm of the angels is there pure evil.
Maybe we'll go by the majority. But is the majority of Ovadiaya Yoseph evil? I'm not so sure.
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For the record, I didn't mean at all to insult or attack Ovadia Yosef. I think most of you know I don't care for the man, but I did not mean to start a flamewar about him--I merely wanted to know his basis for his professions of wanting to "spare lives" (which I took to mean Arab).
I am not responsible for the fighting that has taken place here, but then again, ROY has a long history of creating great internecine quarrels amongst Jewry with his extremely controversial judgments.
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It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.
I hear ya...
Question: How much evil must you do to be evil?
Truth? Really everybody has SOME good in them. The good might be so little and the bad so great that we need to kill them, but nobody is really pure evil. Only in the realm of the angels is there pure evil.
Maybe we'll go by the majority. But is the majority of Ovadiaya Yoseph evil? I'm not so sure.
Lubab, I don't believe any part of Ovadia Yosef is good. Anyone who knowingly puts his own pocket before the lives of jews is a beast.
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Pretty sure that's not what his argument is about.
The Rebbe a few times did, however, say that not giving away land is better for the Arabs too.
But he was the driving force behind getting religious Jews to sign off on the Oslo abomination (which was, of course, all about surrendering Jewish land to the monsters).
I also am pretty sure he told his Sefardim audiences that Arafat was "his friend" and could be trusted.
That is why I have reason to believe he sought to spare Arab lives.
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
Guess again...
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
Guess again...
a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
Guess again...
a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?
No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats. But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together. Meretz has 5 seats. That would make it 60 - 60. You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
Guess again...
a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?
No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats. But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together. Meretz has 5 seats. That would make it 60 - 60. You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.
Oh i get it!!! if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
Guess again...
a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?
No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats. But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together. Meretz has 5 seats. That would make it 60 - 60. You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.
Oh i get it!!! if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas
Exactly! We cannot have this guy in power for another 2 years...
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
Guess again...
a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?
No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats. But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together. Meretz has 5 seats. That would make it 60 - 60. You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.
Oh i get it!!! if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas
Exactly! We cannot have this guy in power for another 2 years...
lets go and kick him in the nuts!
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R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace. He was anti-"disengagement."
True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.
It's a hypothetical ruling...
Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.
No he isn't...
Last I checked Shas didn't quit the govt so yosef is still stuffing his pocket with pork while kassams are landing on jewish homes.
R' Yosef is not in the gov't. Shas is...
As to why they are, I have no idea. I don't support Shas, but I really don't like all of the Loshon Hora towards R' Yosef on this forum.
odkahanechai, Mr yosef is the spriritual leader of shas, he is the head of its council of torah sages and has the final say in all the party's actions. In other words, he is sitting in smolmerts govt. I would be more upset at the fact that yosefs positions clearly endanger jewish life than anyone here talking badly about him.
Let me ask you something:
Olmert, right now, has a slim 66 - 54 seat majority in the Knesset. What do you think would happen if Shas, with its 11 seats, leaves the government?
a 55 - 54 majority?
Guess again...
a 66-54 majority but with more kickbacks shas causes?
No. If Shas pulls out, that brings Olmerts coalition down to 55 seats. But, instantaneously, Meretz will join in order to keep the gov't together. Meretz has 5 seats. That would make it 60 - 60. You need 61 votes to pass a No Confidence Motion.
Oh i get it!!! if shas drops out, you go to 55-65 and then if meretz joins, you get 60 to 60...ooops i forgot about that...
That stinks!!! Another party needs to drop out along with shas
Exactly! We cannot have this guy in power for another 2 years...
lets go and kick him in the nuts!
That'll do a lot..
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It does not mean he is plain evil. It means he's doing something evil. Big difference.
I hear ya...
Question: How much evil must you do to be evil?
Truth? Really everybody has SOME good in them. The good might be so little and the bad so great that we need to kill them, but nobody is really pure evil. Only in the realm of the angels is there pure evil or even pure good.
How can angels be evil if they don't have free will?
Because G-d told them to be evil.
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Hello--
I have a simple question I'd like an answer for. I know many people at JTF are fond of the Sefardic Torah Scholar Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. I'd like for one or more of those who support him to answer a basic question I have:
Can you please explain, from Torahic/Talmudic sources, his ruling that Arab life is worth sparing, even if it requires ceding Jewish land?
I am asking this very respectfully, and will not argue with your answer. I'd just like to hear the basis for this belief that he has.
Chaimfan
Ive never heard Hacham Ovadia say this, show me were he says this?
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I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.
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I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.
Maybe Rabbi Ovadiya should go into herem for endangering Jewish lives. It wouldn't be the first time in Jewish history a great torah sage turned corrupt and was excommunicated. These things have happened and you need to be on the alert for it, even a great Torah scholar may be going down the wrong path and we can't sit idly by and let it happen.
I don't see you really attacking the validity of the arguments. You are just attacking our right to make the arguments.
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Ive argued it many times on this forum. Im not arguing that Hacham Ovadias viwe is correct, it is something I disagree with vehemently, Im just protecting te gadols honor. It is Asur to call him names. Ive told people this many times but they dont seem to care.
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I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.
Maybe Rabbi Ovadiya should go into herem for endangering Jewish lives. It wouldn't be the first time in Jewish history a great torah sage turned corrupt and was excommunicated. These things have happened and you need to be on the alert for it, even a great Torah scholar may be going down the wrong path and we can't sit idly by and let it happen.
I don't see you really attacking the validity of the arguments. You are just attacking our right to make the arguments.
Lubab, you just said what I was thinking in an eloquent way.
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefardim and not any outsiders.
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one should be mindful how they talk about a rabbi even if it is Ovadia Yosef. It is one thing to curse a rabbi, but another thing to disagree, to criticize, and to rebuke the actions of that rabbi. For disagreeing, criticizing, and rebuking are also acts of love.
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one should be mindful how they talk about a rabbi even if it is Ovadia Yosef. It is one thing to curse a rabbi, but another thing to disagree, to criticize, and to rebuke the actions of that rabbi. For disagreeing, criticizing, and rebuking are also acts of love.
I did not attack him!
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I guarantee all of you who talk bad about this sage will burn in the fires of Gehinom. You will see what will happen. Speaking bad about the Posek Hador of the generation guarantess you a seast in hell. Rambam says anyone that slanders a Talmid Hacham should be put in Herem, and all of you should be put into Herem.
How did I slander him?
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.
I'm not influenced by what people say here. I've formed my opinion on this long ago when I heard my Rebbe speak on the topic about "those Rabbis" who claim we should give away land to save Jewish lives.
The Rebbe ripped their argument to shreds...he was not very kind about the whole situation and the danger that their words are causing.
I'm doing this in the name of my Rebbe.
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Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.
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From what I'm seeing from Lubab I wouldn't be surprised if the rumor is true that R' Kahane and the Lubovitcher Rebbe were really working together. 8)
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Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.
Huh?
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.
I'm not influenced by what people say here. I've formed my opinion on this long ago when I heard my Rebbe speak on the topic about "those Rabbis" who claim we should give away land to save Jewish lives.
The Rebbe ripped their argument to shreds...he was not very kind about the whole situation and the danger that their words are causing.
I'm doing this in the name of my Rebbe.
Actually the Lubavitch Rabbi also said allmost the same thing, BUT since giving away land does not bring security then its not a good idea and not allowed to even discuss. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita wrote some time ago that land for True peace is valid (according to his opinion), but since we see with the situation NOW it is obvious that their cant and will not be peace with the arabs, so we dont see him discussing or even suggesting that he will agree to give away any land. Fact is that many people dont like him (expecially in the media) because of some things he said. To start with the media, he probably said that allmost anyone working in that field will have no place in the next world, and I have heard that from Sefardic Rabbis who are a lot less controversial. Alo he made comments on the Holocaust which pissed people off, also on the arabs etc. I see people hating on him both on the left and the right. When things are presented to many of the pro-land people, they are made to belive that the Rabbi is a leftist, and wants to give every piece of land away. When presented to the left and also the everage people, the Rav is made to look like hes only out for $, and hates arabs (calling for their annihilation), also cursing the idf, and other nasty things that are made up or stretching and twisting the truth.
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one should be mindful how they talk about a rabbi even if it is Ovadia Yosef. It is one thing to curse a rabbi, but another thing to disagree, to criticize, and to rebuke the actions of that rabbi. For disagreeing, criticizing, and rebuking are also acts of love.
I did not attack him!
Oh no no...i'm just speaking in general...
CF, you were respectful and i think most peopel on this thread tried to be.
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Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.
I didnt say the Rabbe (allthought some might say that) but the movement today, having to do with the whole "the Rabbe is moshiach" thing. But whatever its not important, nor do I want to start a discussion about this right now, becuase it wont create anything productive. The only reason I brought it up was because of what you said about excommunicating a Gadol Hador.
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Why would Lubavitch be #1 on this excommunication list. Is that something you can back up with Torah sources or are you also influenced by the ignorant lashon hara people say.
I didnt say the Rabbe (allthought some might say that) but the movement today, having to do with the whole "the Rabbe is moshiach" thing. But whatever its not important, nor do I want to start a discussion about this right now, becuase it wont create anything productive. The only reason I brought it up was because of what you said about excommunicating a Gadol Hador.
Crazier thing have happened then a "Gadol Hador" being excommunicated.
My point was that these attacks on Chabad regarding the whole issue of Moshiach are rooted in ignorance and sinas chinam as were the previous attacks on Chabad which preceded this controversy.
If it wasn't Moshiach it was always something else. Until of course, years later they would concede the point and actually start copying what Chabad was doing as happened in the "Kiruv controversy".
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
Meshichistim are in the vast minority in Chabad.
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Lubab, I have come to like Lubavitch from listening to Chaim and your comments in this thread have made me like them even more. Whether or not the meshiach guys are right, the shas supporters here have no moral authority to criticize it considering the fact that their rabbi is an immoral piece of drek whose tuchis should roast for all the money he stole and the jewish deaths he is responsible for. What makes Mr Yosef such a "gadol?" Is it because he is fat? Is it because he walks around with a big shtecken and fancy clothes. Does he have golden gatkes? Or maybe it's because he is offering the muslims the most land for their rubbels.
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.
Tzvi, after I heard Chaim discuss Sir Yosef about a year ago at length, their is nothing you can say to whitewash the actions of this terrorist monster. To have the chutzpa and criticize six million jews who were slaughtered shows what in immoral, subhuman sodomite this well dressed hunk is. Was he the one who said that Israeli soldiers who were killed deserved to be cause they weren't "frum." Yimach shmo
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.
Tzvi, after I heard Chaim discuss Sir Yosef about a year ago at length, their is nothing you can say to whitewash the actions of this terrorist monster. To have the chutzpa and criticize six million jews who were slaughtered shows what in immoral, subhuman sodomite this well dressed hunk is. Was he the one who said that Israeli soldiers who were killed deserved to be cause they weren't "frum." Yimach shmo
You can never say Y"S about a Jew.
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.
Tzvi, after I heard Chaim discuss Sir Yosef about a year ago at length, their is nothing you can say to whitewash the actions of this terrorist monster. To have the chutzpa and criticize six million jews who were slaughtered shows what in immoral, subhuman sodomite this well dressed hunk is. Was he the one who said that Israeli soldiers who were killed deserved to be cause they weren't "frum." Yimach shmo
You can never say Y"S about a Jew.
Yes you can. Chaim just said yemach shmo about Joey"kike" Lieberman last week.
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
Yeah. But that's a perfectly legitimate belief in the eyes of the Torah, don't you know?
See www.moshiachfacts.com and read and learn what the Torah actually says instead of just criticizing people because they are doing something similar to Christianity. If we go down that road we might as well just throw out the whole concept of Moshiach because the Christians believe in that stuff too.
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dwi- you are nuts, and like the israeli media you twist the truth and logic just "to get him". You have deep psychological problems and I belive that you probably are a lost case by now. Just because you repeat your slander wont change the truth, but will only add to your Hell, may it come quickly to you soon.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita has a right and an obligation to talk about different issues including the question about the Holocaust and other things. The fact that it offends you, I and he doesn't care, the truth is the truth, and it is needed to explain things. Obviously him saying anything would be taken negativly by the likes of drek like you.
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Can we please refrain from cursing any Jew on this forum?
I'm really getting sick of it...
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
Yeah. But that's a perfectly legitimate belief in the eyes of the Torah, don't you know?
See www.moshiachfacts.com and read and learn what the Torah actually says instead of just criticizing people because they are doing something similar to Christianity. If we go down that road we might as well just throw out the whole concept of Moshiach because the Christians believe in that stuff too.
Actually I have read something similar to that affect, but then according to that ANYone can be Moshiah, after the mention here today on this subject I have gone to Israel613.com and did see some videos of the lubavitchers and also some of the material their, and again it is shown agains't the madness that was created.
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
Yeah. But that's a perfectly legitimate belief in the eyes of the Torah, don't you know?
See www.moshiachfacts.com and read and learn what the Torah actually says instead of just criticizing people because they are doing something similar to Christianity. If we go down that road we might as well just throw out the whole concept of Moshiach because the Christians believe in that stuff too.
Actually I have read something similar to that affect, but then according to that ANYone can be Moshiah, after the mention here today on this subject I have gone to Israel613.com and did see some videos of the lubavitchers and also some of the material their, and again it is shown agains't the madness that was created.
I'm not endorsing any website or viewpoints other than the one I just pointed out to you.
There are plenty of nuts. But don't let that distract you.
The RAMBAM outlines the criteria a Moshiach must meet and it does NOT include everyone who died at all.
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dwi- you are nuts, and like the israeli media you twist the truth and logic just "to get him". You have deep psychological problems and I belive that you probably are a lost case by now. Just because you repeat your slander wont change the truth, but will only add to your Hell, may it come quickly to you soon.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita has a right and an obligation to talk about different issues including the question about the Holocaust and other things. The fact that it offends you, I and he doesn't care, the truth is the truth, and it is needed to explain things. Obviously him saying anything would be taken negativly by the likes of drek like you.
Well here everyone bear witness to a viscous personal attack against me even though I have been very respectful of tzvi and I was careful to discuss shas without attacking him. Tzvi for you to go and slander a wonderful group of people like lubavitch because they see something different than you is pure evil and pathetic. I guess if you say someone is lost or whatever the hell you said, it must be indeed the case. Anyhow, Lubavitch has very valild reasons for believing that their rebbe was mashiach. He fulfilled all the requirement of what the mashiach was to accomplish. Their is a reason why lubavitch is so loved all across the world and why they recieve more financial support than any other jewish group. It's because they love jews no matter what. That is why they get all their money legally but your sexually deviant pedophile masquerading around as a rabbi needs to steal all the money he gets and wipe smolmerts tuchis for gelt.
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.
Tzvi, after I heard Chaim discuss Sir Yosef about a year ago at length, their is nothing you can say to whitewash the actions of this terrorist monster. To have the chutzpa and criticize six million jews who were slaughtered shows what in immoral, subhuman sodomite this well dressed hunk is. Was he the one who said that Israeli soldiers who were killed deserved to be cause they weren't "frum." Yimach shmo
You can never say Y"S about a Jew.
Yes you can. Chaim just said yemach shmo about Joey"kike" Lieberman last week.
No you can't! Just because Chaim said it - that doesn't make it right! Chaim is not a Posek!
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Tzvi, may you burn in hell for supporting a thief who threw chaim ben pesach out of israel and met arafet the same day. I repeat, may ovadia yosefs name and memory be obliterated.
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
Yeah. But that's a perfectly legitimate belief in the eyes of the Torah, don't you know?
See www.moshiachfacts.com and read and learn what the Torah actually says instead of just criticizing people because they are doing something similar to Christianity. If we go down that road we might as well just throw out the whole concept of Moshiach because the Christians believe in that stuff too.
I am not an authority to speak on this issue about Rabbi Schneerson. All I can say is that he was one amazing human being..and I'll leave it at that. Moshiach? I have no clue, it really doesn't matter...I would rather err thinking it wasn't him than to err to think it was. However, bottom line, he was a great great great man.
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lubab I wouldnt have expected that from you. Dont be influenced by the scum who like to talk sh*t agains't a Rabbi, just so that they psychologically can justify their evil actions. They probably convince themselves that they can break Shabbat, have immoral relationships with a goya and do other evil things + to add the fact that they curse a Gadol Hador, just becuase a Rav said something some time ago that can be interpreted as him supporting the leftists. Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is not giving away land right now, nor is he saying that we should, the fact that Shas is in the government would be just as bad as anyone (Kahanist or anyone else) being in the Israeli Kanesset.
+ Lubab lets not talk about excommunicating Rabbis, if anything the Lubavitch would be #1 on the list.
Picking and commenting about who is and who isn't a good Rav is up to the community and the Hachamim in it. In the case with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita it is up to the Religious Sefaradim and not any outsiders.
Tzvi, after I heard Chaim discuss Sir Yosef about a year ago at length, their is nothing you can say to whitewash the actions of this terrorist monster. To have the chutzpa and criticize six million jews who were slaughtered shows what in immoral, subhuman sodomite this well dressed hunk is. Was he the one who said that Israeli soldiers who were killed deserved to be cause they weren't "frum." Yimach shmo
You can never say Y"S about a Jew.
Yes you can. Chaim just said yemach shmo about Joey"kike" Lieberman last week.
No you can't! Just because Chaim said it - that doesn't make it right! Chaim is not a Posek!
Odkahanechai, I saw tzvi curse me viscously just a few posts up so lets address that if we don't want cursing here.
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dwi- you are nuts, and like the israeli media you twist the truth and logic just "to get him". You have deep psychological problems and I belive that you probably are a lost case by now. Just because you repeat your slander wont change the truth, but will only add to your Hell, may it come quickly to you soon.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita has a right and an obligation to talk about different issues including the question about the Holocaust and other things. The fact that it offends you, I and he doesn't care, the truth is the truth, and it is needed to explain things. Obviously him saying anything would be taken negativly by the likes of drek like you.
Well here everyone bear witness to a viscous personal attack against me even though I have been very respectful of tzvi and I was careful to discuss shas without attacking him. Tzvi for you to go and slander a wonderful group of people like lubavitch because they see something different than you is pure evil and pathetic. I guess if you say someone is lost or whatever the hell you said, it must be indeed the case. Anyhow, Lubavitch has very valild reasons for believing that their rebbe was mashiach. He fulfilled all the requirement of what the mashiach was to accomplish. Their is a reason why lubavitch is so loved all across the world and why they recieve more financial support than any other jewish group. It's because they love jews no matter what. That is why they get all their money legally but your sexually deviant pedophile masquerading around as a rabbi needs to steal all the money he gets and wipe smolmerts tuchis for gelt.
You attacked a Sefardi Gadol Hador, that would be worse then if you personally had attacked me, so of course I hate you. And you claim to be a respectful person. You are scumm.
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dwi- you are nuts, and like the israeli media you twist the truth and logic just "to get him". You have deep psychological problems and I belive that you probably are a lost case by now. Just because you repeat your slander wont change the truth, but will only add to your Hell, may it come quickly to you soon.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita has a right and an obligation to talk about different issues including the question about the Holocaust and other things. The fact that it offends you, I and he doesn't care, the truth is the truth, and it is needed to explain things. Obviously him saying anything would be taken negativly by the likes of drek like you.
Ovadia yosef doesn't speak truth..he's just giving his opinion...His opinion can be dangerous to the life of fellow Jews.
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dwi- you are nuts, and like the israeli media you twist the truth and logic just "to get him". You have deep psychological problems and I belive that you probably are a lost case by now. Just because you repeat your slander wont change the truth, but will only add to your Hell, may it come quickly to you soon.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita has a right and an obligation to talk about different issues including the question about the Holocaust and other things. The fact that it offends you, I and he doesn't care, the truth is the truth, and it is needed to explain things. Obviously him saying anything would be taken negativly by the likes of drek like you.
Well here everyone bear witness to a viscous personal attack against me even though I have been very respectful of tzvi and I was careful to discuss shas without attacking him. Tzvi for you to go and slander a wonderful group of people like lubavitch because they see something different than you is pure evil and pathetic. I guess if you say someone is lost or whatever the hell you said, it must be indeed the case. Anyhow, Lubavitch has very valild reasons for believing that their rebbe was mashiach. He fulfilled all the requirement of what the mashiach was to accomplish. Their is a reason why lubavitch is so loved all across the world and why they recieve more financial support than any other jewish group. It's because they love jews no matter what. That is why they get all their money legally but your sexually deviant pedophile masquerading around as a rabbi needs to steal all the money he gets and wipe smolmerts tuchis for gelt.
You attacked a Sefaradi Gadol Hador, that would be worse then if you personally had attacked me, so of course I hate you. And you claim to be a respectful person. You are scumm.
Any man who is nicer to arafat than to dead israeli soldiers is scum. And anyone who supports him is scum. And learn to spell tzvi. You claim you are in Queens college but your literary skills are about congo level.
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dwi- you are nuts, and like the israeli media you twist the truth and logic just "to get him". You have deep psychological problems and I belive that you probably are a lost case by now. Just because you repeat your slander wont change the truth, but will only add to your Hell, may it come quickly to you soon.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita has a right and an obligation to talk about different issues including the question about the Holocaust and other things. The fact that it offends you, I and he doesn't care, the truth is the truth, and it is needed to explain things. Obviously him saying anything would be taken negativly by the likes of drek like you.
Well here everyone bear witness to a viscous personal attack against me even though I have been very respectful of tzvi and I was careful to discuss shas without attacking him. Tzvi for you to go and slander a wonderful group of people like lubavitch because they see something different than you is pure evil and pathetic. I guess if you say someone is lost or whatever the hell you said, it must be indeed the case. Anyhow, Lubavitch has very valild reasons for believing that their rebbe was mashiach. He fulfilled all the requirement of what the mashiach was to accomplish. Their is a reason why lubavitch is so loved all across the world and why they recieve more financial support than any other jewish group. It's because they love jews no matter what. That is why they get all their money legally but your sexually deviant pedophile masquerading around as a rabbi needs to steal all the money he gets and wipe smolmerts tuchis for gelt.
You attacked a Sefaradi Gadol Hador, that would be worse then if you personally had attacked me, so of course I hate you. And you claim to be a respectful person. You are scumm.
Awww silly Jews...this is it what we are going to resort to once we defeat the muzzies? Jews hating each other and cursing one another? No wonder Israel is doomed and no wonder so many of us die each generation unnecessarily!
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I believe the mere fact that tzvi defends the group who threw Chaim out OF Israel merits a banning. How can he be so arrogant to come on here and shove ovadia and shas down our throats when they consider our leader to be lower than arafat?
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dwi- you are nuts, and like the israeli media you twist the truth and logic just "to get him". You have deep psychological problems and I belive that you probably are a lost case by now. Just because you repeat your slander wont change the truth, but will only add to your Hell, may it come quickly to you soon.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita has a right and an obligation to talk about different issues including the question about the Holocaust and other things. The fact that it offends you, I and he doesn't care, the truth is the truth, and it is needed to explain things. Obviously him saying anything would be taken negativly by the likes of drek like you.
Ovadia yosef doesn't speak truth..he's just giving his opinion...His opinion can be dangerous to the life of fellow Jews.
I agree with you completely dan.
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I believe the mere fact that tzvi defends the group who threw Chaim out OF Israel merits a banning. How can he be so arrogant to come on here and shove ovadia and shas down our throats when they consider our leader to be lower than arafat?
sometimes forcing your point of view down someone else's throat will only make them dislike what you want them to eat more...that goes for both Tzvi and DWI.
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I believe the mere fact that tzvi defends the group who threw Chaim out OF Israel merits a banning. How can he be so arrogant to come on here and shove ovadia and shas down our throats when they consider our leader to be lower than arafat?
Who gave you the right to viciously attach the Rav? Im not shoving anything down your throat, nor am I telling you to support Shas, but what you write about the Rav and the way you address him with no respect, and with vicious curses deserves you being Karet (if you aren't allready) from the Jewish people.
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I believe the mere fact that tzvi defends the group who threw Chaim out OF Israel merits a banning. How can he be so arrogant to come on here and shove ovadia and shas down our throats when they consider our leader to be lower than arafat?
sometimes forcing your point of view down someone else's throat will only make them dislike what you want them to eat more...that goes for both Tzvi and DWI.
That is true but here I am criticizing the skunk who endangers jewish life to buy his fancy clothes and who knows what else. So I need to be forceful. Tzvi on the other hand is supporting drek so its not equal at all.
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Okay guys. This is getting a little out of hand.
I'm locking it so people can cool off.
This will go nowhere good.
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
Yeah. But that's a perfectly legitimate belief in the eyes of the Torah, don't you know?
See www.moshiachfacts.com and read and learn what the Torah actually says instead of just criticizing people because they are doing something similar to Christianity. If we go down that road we might as well just throw out the whole concept of Moshiach because the Christians believe in that stuff too.
The idea of a resurrected Moshiach has been rejected by every major Gaon, Rishon and Acharon.
The Ramban said clearly in the Disputation at Barcelona in 1298 that there is room whatsoever for the idea of a resurrected Moshiach.
Maimonides is equally clear in the last two chapters of the Mishne Torah.
Your quoting of stray midrashim does not prove a thing.
I read your article on that site called "Set the Record Straight."
You say that the Moshiach is a Halakhic issue and should be treated as such, then you proceed to quote midrashim and not one halakhic source.
The most important Halakhic source is the last two chapters of the Mishne Torah in which Maimonides makes it perfectly clear that the Moshiach will NOT be resurrected. I don't know how you can learn those chapters every year and still beleive in a resurrected Moshiach.
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I dont know if you understood, but what I meant was the gadol Hador (referring to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlita), and why would excommunication be suggested.
About lubavitch, it cannot be denied that many of them belive that their previous DEAD Rabbi will come back to life (or actually he isn't dead, like they say), and he is the moshiah, etc. Their are many parelles between them and the followers of yeshu, and also many other false messiahs. I dont know if its all the lubavitchers, the majority or a significant amount, but their still are many who are even open about it.
Yeah. But that's a perfectly legitimate belief in the eyes of the Torah, don't you know?
See www.moshiachfacts.com and read and learn what the Torah actually says instead of just criticizing people because they are doing something similar to Christianity. If we go down that road we might as well just throw out the whole concept of Moshiach because the Christians believe in that stuff too.
The idea of a resurrected Moshiach has been rejected by every major Gaon, Rishon and Acharon.
The Ramban said clearly in the Disputation at Barcelona in 1298 that there is room whatsoever for the idea of a resurrected Moshiach.
Maimonides is equally clear in the last two chapters of the Mishne Torah.
Your quoting of stray midrashim does not prove a thing.
I read your article on that site called "Set the Record Straight."
You say that the Moshiach is a Halakhic issue and should be treated as such, then you proceed to quote midrashim and not one halakhic source.
The most important Halakhic source is the last two chapters of the Mishne Torah in which Maimonides makes it perfectly clear that the Moshiach will NOT be resurrected. I don't know how you can learn those chapters every year and still beleive in a resurrected Moshiach.
I am very familiar with those chapters JudeanonCapta and would be happy to discuss them and how they SUPPORT and do not contradict the notion of a ressurected Moshiach.
Please tell me the exact words you see in the Rambam (his halacha sefer, written after his Igeret Teiman and therefore is more authoritative) which you think preclude the belief that Moshiach can be ressurected and let's get this discussion started.
P.S. Your statement that it has been rejected by "every major Gaon Rishon and Acharon", is backed up with sources?
I can show you some pretty interesting sources from the Vilna Gaon which support this notion.
First of all, Rishonim and Acharonim cannot argue with a clear Gemarah like the one on Sanhedrin 98:B (see Rashi's first interpretation there).
The Abarbanel and Sdei Chemed both say clearly that Moshiach can be ressurected, so I really don't know where you get the basis for that blanket statement. The Sdei Chemed says this in his HALACH sefer called Peas Sadeh, so I'm really not sure where you are coming from here.
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You claim that every Acharon disagrees with this is also contradicted by a pretty clear letter from Rav Aharon Soloveitchic Z"TL on this topic.
I had the zechus to speak with him myself about this topic before he passed away.
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Do you like Mordechai Eliyahu?
He also said this belief was Kosher. He even made a few speeches where he implied pretty strongly that the Rebbe will be Moshiach (post Tammuz 3).
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In short, the reason we still believe Moshiach can come from the dead is BECAUSE we learn that Rambam every year. We know it better than you do and I'm prepared to talk about every word of it if you like.
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Folks, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. Since Chaim has criticized the Rabbi on his shows, I am not going to ban people for expressing their disagreement with ROY's policies. All I ask is that people clean up their language.
DWI, you have plenty of information to use. So just stick to stating the facts about R.O.Y. There's no need to say Yimach Shmo.