Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I agree with alot of what you say. I am not attacking attacking their actions. Or their doctrine,(atleast not in this thread).

I was just trying to clarify what their position is. And not allow their position to change in a way that would be untruthful.

I know, I know. You aren't against them, you just think that their technical position on Zionism is inaccurate. Since I have no reason to doubt you, it appears that it is. I just think that in practice, they are almost always up there among our greatest allies and friends, and we all should acknowledge that. I understand how you feel. I don't fully agree with much of charismatic or Pentecostal Christianity (I think the theology tends to be a bit weak and too based on feelings and personal experience), but in practice they are often the most loving, devout, and passionate-living Bible-believing Christians out there. I might like Baptist/Calvinist theological work and study more, but by and large the charismatic Christians lead better lives. (And they tend to be very supportive of the Jews too.)

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

C.F,

This is uncalled for... I generally respect everyones opinion here.. And I am also supporting Tzvis argument... The truth is that following Torah is not a simple proposition. We need to be sensitive to our fellow Jews feelings {Ahavas Yisroel} and yet we need to firmly rebuke those who wish to follow but have missed the mark {Chet}.

There is nothing gained by exhibiting so much anger in insulting another person. I will stand up and defend just about everyone in this forum because I believe we all share a common goal. The Torah holds in high regard the middot of Bitul {self nullification} and Tzniut {Modesty}. Read the story of Yaakov and Essau and notice that as Great as Yaakov was he still bowed to Essau because he knew that this world was not for him but the next world is.

Muman, that was you and Judeanoncapta that he was insulting when I responded to that. He said that what the two of you were saying was "non-sense".

[judeanoncapta]

There are some beliefs of Christianity which don't quite fit into Jewish belief...

I thought Gentiles are not required to have full "Jewish belief".

C.F it might be hard to answer your question without delving into inter-religious theological debate (or equally likely- an argument). 

That seems to have been averted because C.F. is basically a moderate.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

C.F it might be hard to answer your question without delving into inter-religious theological debate (or equally likely- an argument). 

It is fine. Judeanoncapta already addressed it well. I consider this subject dropped.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That seems to have been averted because C.F. is basically a moderate.

What do you mean by I am a "moderate"? You gave a perfectly fine answer, and that was that.

[Ulli]

Tzvi is referring to all other religion as 'klippot' that should be shed. But this attitude is counter productive to this movement.

Isn't Christianity pretty much Noahidism by default?

It is in the purest form very near to Nohidism, but there is one major point, that is dividing the Jewish theological system from the Christian.

Jews didn't believe, that god became human, suffered under the hand of Pontius Pilatus for the sins of the people who believe in him and that he defeated death on the third day with the promise that his fellows will do this exactly like him.

It is against the Jewish dogma of the indivisibleness and divine dignity of god.

There is no possibility to bridge the deep abyss between this two religions without violating the one or the other.

We all have to accept it C.F.

[judeanoncapta]

C.F,

This is uncalled for... I generally respect everyones opinion here.. And I am also supporting Tzvis argument... The truth is that following Torah is not a simple proposition. We need to be sensitive to our fellow Jews feelings {Ahavas Yisroel} and yet we need to firmly rebuke those who wish to follow but have missed the mark {Chet}.

There is nothing gained by exhibiting so much anger in insulting another person. I will stand up and defend just about everyone in this forum because I believe we all share a common goal. The Torah holds in high regard the middot of Bitul {self nullification} and Tzniut {Modesty}. Read the story of Yaakov and Essau and notice that as Great as Yaakov was he still bowed to Essau because he knew that this world was not for him but the next world is.

Muman, that was you and Judeanoncapta that he was insulting when I responded to that. He said that what the two of you were saying was "non-sense".

I'm pretty sure he was addressing my comments only actually.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It is in the purest form very near to Nohidism, but there is one major point, that is dividing the Jewish theological system from the Christian.

Jews didn't believe, that G-d became human, suffered under the hand of Pontius Pilatus for the sins of the people who believe in him and that he defeated death on the third day with the promise that his fellows will do this exactly like him.

It is against the Jewish dogma of the indivisibleness and divine dignity of G-d.

There is no possibility to bridge the deep abyss between this two religions without violating the one or the other.

We all have to accept it C.F.

I didn't mean to cause a Jewish-Christian conflict, and apologize if my post did that. I guess I should have said "isn't Christianity in some ways Noahidism by default".

[judeanoncapta]

That seems to have been averted because C.F. is basically a moderate.

What do you mean by I am a "moderate"? You gave a perfectly fine answer, and that was that.

I actually meant that in a good way. Kind of a play on what Rabbi Kahane said when he quoted from the book of Joshua about all of the wiping out of the Canaanites, and said "I just want to expel the Arabs, because I'm basically a moderate."

I know when you hear the word moderate, weasels like McCain and Arlen Spector and other assorted rifraff usually are what comes to mind.

But I actually meant it in a good way. A term of endearment, actually.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I actually meant that in a good way. Kind of a play on what Rabbi Kahane said when he quoted from the book of Joshua about all of the wiping out of the Canaanites, and said "I just want to expel the Arabs, because I'm basically a moderate."

I know when you hear the word moderate, weasels like McCain and Arlen Spector and other assorted rifraff usually are what comes to mind.

But I actually meant it in a good way. A term of endearment, actually.

OK, well thank you, then.  I knew you meant it in a good way, I just didn't actually understand your context.

But you have a good point. We ARE all moderates using HaRav Meir Kahane (zt"l)'s definition. G-d commanded Israel to completely wipe out the Canaanite/Amalekite/Midianite/Jebusite proto-Muslim Nazis. We only want to remove their descendants, the Arab Nazis, from Israel. The fact is that G-d would be commanding a shoah against the Muslim Nazi Amalekites today if He were directly speaking to Israel today. But, we do not believe in or advocate that.

But while on this subject, why do you think, since you live in Israel and have been exposed to many sick, secular leftists, that so many average Israelis believe Arabs have "civil rights" and have a legitimate "historical claim" to a Fakestine state? According to opinion polls even done by the Left, the vast majority of Israelis do know the Arabs want to kill them all--and yet they believe that they still have rights and certain entitlements. Is this purely explained by secularism and moral relativism (which is what I assume), or is there something else there that I am not aware of as a Western Gentile?

[judeanoncapta]

I actually meant that in a good way. Kind of a play on what Rabbi Kahane said when he quoted from the book of Joshua about all of the wiping out of the Canaanites, and said "I just want to expel the Arabs, because I'm basically a moderate."

I know when you hear the word moderate, weasels like McCain and Arlen Spector and other assorted rifraff usually are what comes to mind.

But I actually meant it in a good way. A term of endearment, actually.

OK, well thank you, then.  I knew you meant it in a good way, I just didn't actually understand your context.

But you have a good point. We ARE all moderates using HaRav Meir Kahane (zt"l)'s definition. G-d commanded Israel to completely wipe out the Canaanite/Amalekite/Midianite/Jebusite proto-Muslim Nazis. We only want to remove their descendants, the Arab Nazis, from Israel. The fact is that G-d would be commanding a shoah against the Muslim Nazi Amalekites today if He were directly speaking to Israel today. But, we do not believe in or advocate that.

But while on this subject, why do you think, since you live in Israel and have been exposed to many sick, secular leftists, that so many average Israelis believe Arabs have "civil rights" and have a legitimate "historical claim" to a Fakestine state? According to opinion polls even done by the Left, the vast majority of Israelis do know the Arabs want to kill them all--and yet they believe that they still have rights and certain entitlements. Is this purely explained by secularism and moral relativism (which is what I assume), or is there something else there that I am not aware of as a Western Gentile?

I would like to see these opinion polls if you can quote them.

But Israel is a divided country. And when I go to Tel Aviv, I'm stepping into a leftist paradise. I think the Average Tel-Aviv resident would be happy to hand over all lands other than Tel-Aviv.

Then I go home to "The Gush" and I feel like I am seeing the rebirth of the Israelite Nation. I can't go fully into it but there is a slow cultural revolution among the Hilltop Youth and others that is quite encouraging. It sometimes brings me to tears to be perfectly honest. It is very beautiful. I cannot express it in words, but I see it happening every day.

I sometimes wish that they would give the Arabs Tel Aviv instead of Gush Katif so we could cleanse our voter rolls and elect some decent people. Just kidding, I don't want to give the Arabs anything but a bus ride to Jordan.

I don't know what the future will be. But I see encouraging signs atleast where I live. Some Haredi Rabbis are changing their tune and I think that very slowly they and their flocks will move along with the rest of us to Total National Rebirth.

As far as secular people. I am stunned that there is such a thing as a secular right-winger. We atleast have our own schools. These people are subjected to leftist propoganda morning, noon and night.

Israel doesn't have any right wing media of any kind. Lily-livered or rock-ribbed.

They just ban anyone who disagrees with them.

I do have to say though, that I agree with Hayim that Kahanism is growing. Atleast in Jerusalem and in Judea. I see posters of Rabbi Kahane on Walls right outside the Jerusalem Central Bus Station and in the bus station on my little "settlement".

Tel Aviv, on the other hand, the only posters are for reggae and rap parties and techno raves. It's pretty depressing.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I would like to see these opinion polls if you can quote them.

I posted one a few weeks back by the War and Peace Index, a left-wing Tel Aviv think tank.

It found that something like 63% of Israelis do believe the Arabs want to kill them all, but that a similar margin still believe the Fakestinians have a historical and moral claim to a state of their "own."

[DownwithIslam]

Judeanoncapta, you are right. Chabad is for immigration to the land of Israel but even it's true that the rebbe didnt want every last jew there. This is evident by the fact that they send shluchim to all parts of the world. I believe that the rebbe took this position simply because he knew that not all jews would pick up and move to israel and that chabad would be needed wherever their are jews.

As far as Torahanytime, Judeanoncapta is right again. While it's not a terrible site by any means, it could use some improving. I don't believe it's like Aguda or those types. I have a problem with a Rabbi who picks himself up and leaves Israel. That is what Rabbi Mizrahi did. Are you telling me their are no non religious jews in israel who he could help? Why did he move to monsey. Judeanoncapta proved his money was where his mouth is by actually moving to Israel while Rabbi Mizrahi moved out. I also didn't like how he seems to bash the "goyim" alot when their are many bible believing christian supporters of Israel. Many of the videos he posts are titles "debate vs christian." Wouldn't it be better if he bashed islam? I see that he posts many videos on nonsensical topics and doesn't encourage people to move to Israel. He doesn't even sound like he supports Israel at all. I saw some of the names of Rabbis on their menu and most seem worse than Rabbi Mizrahi.

Look, Judeanoncapta knows much more about torahanytime.com than me so their must be legitimate reasons why he believes it should be called onethirdoftorahanytime.com
I believe that many of the events they put together do bring kids closer to judaism so thats a good thing. I just am not totally impressed with what they do. They could use that site to give jews a real jewish lesson but they dont.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Judeanoncapta, you are right. Chabad is for immigration to the land of Israel but even it's true that the rebbe didnt want every last jew there. This is evident by the fact that they send shluchim to all parts of the world. I believe that the rebbe took this position simply because he knew that not all jews would pick up and move to israel and that chabad would be needed wherever their are jews.

As far as Torahanytime, Judeanoncapta is right again. While it's not a terrible site by any means, it could use some improving. I don't believe it's like Aguda or those types. I have a problem with a Rabbi who picks himself up and leaves Israel. That is what Rabbi Mizrahi did. Are you telling me their are no non religious jews in israel who he could help? Why did he move to monsey. Judeanoncapta proved his money was where his mouth is by actually moving to Israel while Rabbi Mizrahi moved out. I also didn't like how he seems to bash the "goyim" alot when their are many bible believing christian supporters of Israel. Many of the videos he posts are titles "debate vs christian." Wouldn't it be better if he bashed islam? I see that he posts many videos on nonsensical topics and doesn't encourage people to move to Israel. He doesn't even sound like he supports Israel at all. I saw some of the names of Rabbis on their menu and most seem worse than Rabbi Mizrahi.

Look, Judeanoncapta knows much more about torahanytime.com than me so their must be legitimate reasons why he believes it should be called onethirdoftorahanytime.com
I believe that many of the events they put together do bring kids closer to judaism so thats a good thing. I just am not totally impressed with what they do. They could use that site to give jews a real jewish lesson but they dont.

 Like I told you in pm earlier, if you really cared you would have emailed him and gotten your answer instead of speaking lashon hara here. (and I dont have to explain over and over that he was not religious when he left, he does and did speak of the greatness of living in Israel)
 - Why does he bash xtianity? Becuase he feels like it, he is not jtf and he does not work with them, so he can say whatever he wants (as long as it is true).
 Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).
 - His debate with christian was brilliant. Do you know how many x- Christians became noahides becuase of that? Also how it raised Judaism in the eyes of Jews.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabb-t and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabb-t, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

[q_q_]

And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

Tzvi,  JNC's criticism of torahanytime is not specific to it, he would have to  apply it to the majourity of orthodox jews in the world, including Chabad. Maybe DWI won't be so happy now.

Also Tzvi, I think you misunderstand rabbi mizrachi's reasons for talking about christianity and islam. It is counter-missionary and to bring jews back to judaism by showing -jews- how judaism is better.  So it is not really bashing those religions.  e.g. it's not like how muslims set up a website against christianity..

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

Also Tzvi, I think you misunderstand rabbi mizrachi's reasons for talking about christianity and islam. It is counter-missionary and to bring jews back to judaism by showing -jews- how judaism is better.  So it is not really bashing those religions.  e.g. it's not like how muslims set up a website against christianity..

 I also know about that, I was only replying to DWI who asked why he bashes other religions.

[DownwithIslam]

Look, I don't dislike Rabbi Mizrahi. In fact I think he is a wonderful man who means well but is mistaken on some issues. For instance, the reason he supports the shas party is because he thinks they are a right wing religious party who support israel. He means well but is wrong. I think he is wrong for criticism Christianity when we have real enemies in the world.

Q_Q, I know that JudeaNoncapta doesn't like Chabad, I have been on the forum long enough to know that. Of course I am unhappy with that but it doesn't mean we can't work together for a good cause. I am sure me and him agree on many issues like what needs to be done to muzzies etc so I choose to discuss with him the things we agree on.

On a side issue, I always have a problem understanding how people can hate Lubavitch. Sure every group has problems but the good they do is incomparable to anyone else. No other group is willing to sacrifice so much just to make sure that people are jews no matter where in the world they are. While the Satmar are sitting in williamsburg fressing chulent and kugel, the lubavitcher are on the lebanon border, in mumbai india and man other places trying to uplift the spirit of jews around the world. No other group brings jews back to judaism on the level that lubavitch does.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Whatever else he has done, if he thinks it's okay to bash Christianity and not Islam only because the former poses no threat to him, he is a coward, plain and simple. And I think he has many better things to do than to proselytize to Christians (not that I think he does not have the right to do that, just that it is counterproductive to what should be his mission in the world). I will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place.

Back to Muslims: I'd like to see Rabbi Mizrahi try to convert some Muslims. As you yourself said Tzvi, it's not at all hard to refute Islam. The Koran was not codified in any official sense until about 150 years after the "prophet"'s death at minimum and at one point, according to Islamic tradition itself, there were actually FOUR competing versions of the Koran that came about at the same time and were put together by equally "competent" (or not) "companions of the Prophet"). Only one of these codices (that done by Abu Zaid) was actually chosen, and the caliph at that time (Uthman I believe) ordered all others destroyed. Or the Hadiths: out of something like 100,000 total "sayings of the Prophet", only 6,000 were selected--again out of the arbitrary whim of one of the caliphs in the 800s, or 250 years after the "Prophet"'s death. Again, the fact that Rabbi Mizrahi does not do any of this is cowardly. It is not that hard to engage Muslim leaders in "interfaith debate". It could be framed in the context of dawa (Islamic missionizing).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Whatever else he has done, if he thinks it's okay to bash Christianity and not Islam only because the former poses no threat to him, he is a coward, plain and simple. And I think he has many better things to do than to proselytize to Christians (not that I think he does not have the right to do that, just that it is counterproductive to what should be his mission in the world). I will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place.

Back to Muslims: I'd like to see Rabbi Mizrahi try to convert some Muslims. As you yourself said Tzvi, it's not at all hard to refute Islam. The Koran was not codified in any official sense until about 150 years after the "prophet"'s death at minimum and at one point, according to Islamic tradition itself, there were actually FOUR competing versions of the Koran that came about at the same time and were put together by equally "competent" (or not) "companions of the Prophet"). Only one of these codices (that done by Abu Zaid) was actually chosen, and the caliph at that time (Uthman I believe) ordered all others destroyed. Or the Hadiths: out of something like 100,000 total "sayings of the Prophet", only 6,000 were selected--again out of the arbitrary whim of one of the caliphs in the 800s, or 250 years after the "Prophet"'s death. Again, the fact that Rabbi Mizrahi does not do any of this is cowardly. It is not that hard to engage Muslim leaders in "interfaith debate". It could be framed in the context of dawa (Islamic missionizing).

 Actually he does disprove islam, in many of the lectures he talks about the other world religions and disproves them easily (both islam and xtianity, etc. ).
  And saying that one doesn't want to engage in debates  does not make one a coward.(or even not saying it, but just not having it- and also with the case of this christian missionary, this guy came to our community and started preaching his nonsense. Eventually, thank G-d he was publicly defeated so that one wouldn't have to follow him around and see which Jews he is brainwashing and telling lies. They had this completly open debate and anyone can see the results. I dont think this guy even comes around anymore. And he was welcomed back to Beit Gavriel in forest Hills, Anytime)
  Also with moslems- 1 we dont see them missionizing (and if that was the case other things would be done- probably will be more aggressive) and 2-People have to be smart, and people must take care of their life. If someone who doesn't have body guards talks agains't these fanatics, then they can be dead like rushdie (actually I remembered now that R Mizrachi did origionally talk very strongly agains't islam, but then they edited the Divine Information video, becuase it is just no worth it if it will not change anything.)
  It was the same in the past with christian europe. The Rabbis would not talk strong words agains't that because they knew that they would endanger themselves and their communities. And they did what they HAD to do.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

" will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place."

 No. Their are x- christians who knew a lot, one of them even spoke publicly in Beit Gavriel (a latino like you). was verry religious, spoke about his life, etc. and then how he changed by seeing the debate.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Also with moslems- 1 we dont see them missionizing (and if that was the case other things would be done- probably will be more aggressive)

That's not true; dawa (evangelism) is one of the central commandments of Islam. In parts of London, it's impossible to walk two blocks without getting preached to by a bunch of ragheads.

and 2-People have to be smart, and people must take care of their life. If someone who doesn't have body guards talks agains't these fanatics, then they can be dead like rushdie (actually I remembered now that R Mizrachi did origionally talk very strongly agains't islam, but then they edited the Divine Information video, becuase it is just no worth it if it will not change anything.)

Anything can happen to anybody. It isn't "safe" to criticize Islam anywhere, certainly not even Israel (where the Bolshevik apparatus of the state and most of the population alike both give preferential treatment to Muslims over each other). I am not advocating wild, blatant flaming, but he can scathingly refute the premises of Islam without being willfully insulting. Why does he have the need to insult Christianity? What does he hope to accomplish by flaming Christianity? All he is going to do by this is push his natural allies away and convince Christians and many fellow Jews alike that he is a crackpot.

It was the same in the past with christian europe. The Rabbis would not talk strong words agains't that because they knew that they would endanger themselves and their communities. And they did what they HAD to do.

This isn't "Christian" medieval Europe. Christians are not Amalek today. I see what you are saying but the Christians of today (or at least many of them) have not done anything to merit this attack. If Rabbi Mizrahi is merely debating a Christian evangelist who has come to him that is one thing, but to just flame Christians in general is completely uncalled-for and a cheap shot.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

" will say though that any so-called Christian who is convinced to leave their faith never was one in the first place."

 No. Their are x- christians who knew a lot, one of them even spoke publicly in Beit Gavriel (a latino like you). was verry religious, spoke about his life, etc. and then how he changed by seeing the debate.

It is a matter of teaching in the Christian Scriptures (the New Testament) that anyone who "goes out from" the Christian faith never belonged to it in a first place; therefore, this is central Christian doctrine, and not just opinion. That is why I said what I did.

[muman613]

The difference between Christians and Muslims is:

The Christian will kill the Jew spiritually (Assimiliation/Intermarriage and Crusades/Inquisitions)
The Muslim will kill the Jew physically (Jihad)

I have heard many Rabbis make this statement.

[muman613]

I have watched Rabbi Mizrachi and have not heard a thing which is not true. I dont know why some people here feel a need to disprect Rabbis who have studied and present the Torah in a very powerful message.