JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Yonathan Ben Yakov on March 05, 2008, 10:56:52 PM
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just out of curiosity :)
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1 here :)
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200 billion!
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200 billion!
200 trillion ;D
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I am a shvartza muslim hehe. Na im jewish.
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One more Jew here.
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Damn, there are lots of flippin' Jews here! I guess this is where the Jewish takeover of the world starts.
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I am Jewish.
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I'd say at least 400 out of the 1100 members
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Me
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
As far as i know he's not a member of piss now O0 but he is immoral
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I am.
Doing my part to contribute to the Zionist takeover of the world O0
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish
Thats true, but both sides are right depending on how you look at it. In many cases within the askenazim expecially, it could be that really people like him are not Jewish halahically, either. Certainly not spiritually thats for sure.
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Hope that no one is making fun of the Askenazim. :P
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Hope that no one is making fun of the Askenazim. :P
I try not to.
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Hope that no one is making fun of the Askenazim. :P
I try not to.
Ashkenazim or Sefaradi, whats the difference we all Jews
I agree, jews have enough problems with out that.
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i am jewish... nik.
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
no, unless his mom is a Jew, he, unfortunatley is one...
and even if he were a Jew...that doesn't make him a good person..He's an evil perverted Jew
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okay, why are we even mentioning him ??? , I dont like the fact that when discussing Jews, it happens that a lot of times the conversation ends up discussing the klippot amoung the Jews, and not the rightious ones.
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okay, why are we even mentioning him ??? , I dont like the fact that when discussing Jews, it happens that a lot of times the conversation ends up discussing the klippot amoung the Jews, and not the rightious ones.
agree..let's not talk about him on this religious forum.
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I'd guess half Jewish have Righteous gentile
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I'm Jewish.
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<<<<< jewish
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<<<<<< scientologist
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JK :)
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Hope that no one is making fun of the Askenazim. :P
I am ashkenaz..
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2
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Hope that no one is making fun of the Askenazim. :P
What's the point in people still categorizing Jews like this? All Jews have the same Torah.
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Ashkenazim or Sefaradi, whats the difference we all Jews
Agreed
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okay, why are we even mentioning him ??? , I dont like the fact that when discussing Jews, it happens that a lot of times the conversation ends up discussing the klippot amoung the Jews, and not the rightious ones.
It's annoying when liberal Jewish publications like to claim people, who are involved in the Hollywood industry, as Jews.
One of the reasons people in that industry are self-hating is because they play people who aren't themselves. So they want to be someone who they aren't.
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2
2? I think theres more than 2 :::D
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Jewish.
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so what's the count already and should we find out how many of us are observant...? nik.
i am frum...
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Heeb here. 8)
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about 20 and 1/2 :::D
OKoK only joking Mills 21 :D :D :)
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about 20 and 1/2 :::D
OKoK only joking Mills 21 :D :D :)
LOL, thanks. I know I dont count, I'm just a gentile. But this situation may change one day. ;)
Well you are not a gentile either, and you are close enough for my count ;)
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Why don't we have another poll on this?? since the membership has grown so rapidly.
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I added a poll.
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I did. Feel free to explain your answers everyone. Especially if you said "Yes, but not according to Halacha" or "No, because of Halacha".
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No is just for gentiles with no Jewish ancestry. No because of Halacha is for a person who might have Jewish ancestry and might want to or does consider himself Jewish, but admits that he isn't Jewish according to Halacha.
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No is just for gentiles with no Jewish ancestry. No because of Halacha is for a person who might have Jewish ancestry and might want to or does consider himself Jewish, but admits that he isn't Jewish according to Halacha.
and what about , Yes, but not according to Halacha
That is for someone who considers himself or herself Jewish REGARDLESS of the fact that they are not Jewish Halachically.
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No is just for gentiles with no Jewish ancestry. No because of Halacha is for a person who might have Jewish ancestry and might want to or does consider himself Jewish, but admits that he isn't Jewish according to Halacha.
and what about , Yes, but not according to Halacha
That is for someone who considers himself or herself Jewish REGARDLESS of the fact that they are not Jewish Halachically.
I knew a girl growing up whose father was Jewish and whose mother was not Jewish, but she believed she was Jewish, self-identified as such, and followed a form of Reform Judaism. I'm assuming she would fall under that "Yes, but not halachically Jewish" option.
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if your mother was jewish because her mother was jewish from a jewish mother then you are jewish... otherwise you are not... that is the halacha... go back three generations unless you know for sure that someone earlier was not jewish then you are not... but 3 generations back is all you have to check to satisfy the halachic standard...
the reason the father does not matter at all is a deep secret of G-d but what we know even though he plants the seed in the soil (so to speak)... still the "fruit of the womb" is whatever the mother is... as the tree will determine which fruit grows upon it... and all grafting and hybriding aside... an apple only grows on an apple tree...
true conversion (gerut) changes the soul of the woman to be as if reborn and a jew fully and equally with any one born jewish from birth...
the father determines which tribe among the jewish people the child belongs to... unless the father is a goy and then though the child is jewish by an authentically halachic jewish woman... the child does not adopt the mother's tribe and is considered... tribeless like any other convert... this is the only area in which these children and converts themselves are disimilar to native born jews... however the child if a girl or the woman who converts will be considered a member of the tribe of her husband and their subsequent children will all be full members of that tribe... boys born from a goyish father and male converts are out of luck by Divine decree... not by human rule...
on the otherhand... a child born of a jewish father and a goyish mother is not a jew to the 100th generation... also by Divine decree... the rabbis had nothing to do with making up any of these rules... it's just the way it is... as determined by the will of G-d... hope this helps... nik. out...
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12
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No is just for gentiles with no Jewish ancestry. No because of Halacha is for a person who might have Jewish ancestry and might want to or does consider himself Jewish, but admits that he isn't Jewish according to Halacha.
and what about , Yes, but not according to Halacha
That is for someone who considers himself or herself Jewish REGARDLESS of the fact that they are not Jewish Halachically.
What is a non halakhic Jew?
I mean, i can agree if it is someone with a non Jewish mother, jewish father and raised Jewish, but not officially converted. But what if it is someone who has both parents who are Jews, but this person doesn't really practice orthodox Judaism? not shomer shabbat or shomer kashrut? Is he still halakhically a Jew?
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someone who claims to be jewish from a jewish father and a goyish mother... or one who claims to be a converted woman who was not converted according to torah law but has a reformed or conservative "conversion"... they are non-halachic jews... i.e. goyim muchlat... 100% gentiles... nik. out...
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No is just for gentiles with no Jewish ancestry. No because of Halacha is for a person who might have Jewish ancestry and might want to or does consider himself Jewish, but admits that he isn't Jewish according to Halacha.
and what about , Yes, but not according to Halacha
That is for someone who considers himself or herself Jewish REGARDLESS of the fact that they are not Jewish Halachically.
What is a non halakhic Jew?
I mean, i can agree if it is someone with a non Jewish mother, jewish father and raised Jewish, but not officially converted. But what if it is someone who has both parents who are Jews, but this person doesn't really practice orthodox Judaism? not shomer shabbat or shomer kashrut? Is he still halakhically a Jew?
I cannot imagine how somebody cannot know this by now.
RULE IS IF MOTHER IS JEWISH OR THEY CONVERTED. THEN JEWISH
so yeah, if they meet those criteria, but eat pork and bacon, then they are still jewish. Just bad jews.
and has to be a proper conversion. Orthodox.
(and to say "non halachic jew" suggests you do not accept halacha). If they are not halachically jewish, then according to halacha, they are not jewish. You might say somebody is ethnically jewish. Or culturally jewish. In halacha that does not make or break somebody being jewish
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someone who claims to be jewish from a jewish father and a goyish mother... or one who claims to be a converted woman who was not converted according to torah law but has a reformed or conservative "conversion"... they are non-halachic jews... i.e. goyim muchlat... 100% gentiles... nik. out...
Dont' want to start an argument, but i have always wondered why reform and conservative rabbis don't count as far as conversions. According to whom and what was this decided?
As far as actual conversions, my view is that it is best that it be done by a Rabbi who knows what he's talking about and that the convertee shoudl practice Torah Judaism.
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Dont' want to start an argument, but i have always wondered why reform and conservative rabbis don't count as far as conversions. According to whom and what was this decided?
It sort of makes sense that the Orthodox wouldn't accept converts by non-Orthodox Rabbis. I'm sure that reform Jews accept converts by reform Rabbis and Conservative Jews would accept converts by Conservative Rabbis though. :)
Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?
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I'm a Jew.
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Dont' want to start an argument, but i have always wondered why reform and conservative rabbis don't count as far as conversions. According to whom and what was this decided?
It sort of makes sense that the Orthodox wouldn't accept converts by non-Orthodox Rabbis. I'm sure that reform Jews accept converts by reform Rabbis and Conservative Jews would accept converts by Conservative Rabbis though. :)
Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?
I mean, I would hope that any person who truly converts to Judaism practices the religion completely and properly with a full heart. I would assume that if it were an Orthodox rabbi that did it, he/she is more likely to do that than a non-orthodox rabbi. The test shouldn't be easier just becuase it came from a reform or conservative one.
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The reform movement is not judaism and a reform minister is not a rabbi.
A reform "rabbi" has as much power to convert somebody to judaism as the pope. And if the pope called himself "rabbi" it would not give him any more power.
They do not believe the tenets of (orthodox) judaism.
Simple.
Look.. this is pathetic..
For jews here that are already familiar with the issue, and liberally religious jews must be by now.
there are really only 2 possibilities here..
Either
a)you don`t get the logic. (unlikely)
b)you have some emotional block that prevents you from reasoning.
I cannot help you with `b`. And I can`t really help much further with `a`.
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Dont' want to start an argument, but i have always wondered why reform and conservative rabbis don't count as far as conversions. According to whom and what was this decided?
It sort of makes sense that the Orthodox wouldn't accept converts by non-Orthodox Rabbis. I'm sure that reform Jews accept converts by reform Rabbis and Conservative Jews would accept converts by Conservative Rabbis though. :)
Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?
as far as I know, yes, they all accept orthodox. Since that is the strictest one. The other groups just lessen standards (and beliefs)..
The other groups change their rules all the time. I don`t bother to check. Why should anybody bother to check? There are less depressing forms of amusement.
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Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?
Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.
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Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?
Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.
syrian jews don't accept any converts?
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Re: how many Jews are in the forum?
you are all missing the point here... the torah of G-d says that there is a three step process to conversion (4 for a man)... first acceptance of all the mitzvot... pledging to be observant... then brit milah by a kosher mohel if a male convert... then mikvah and in the time of the temple a sacrifice to complete the transformation... these are the rules and regs. stipulated by G-d not man on who is a converted jew and whether or not their goyish soul was removed and a jewish one inserted in the person's body...
look at it it like the rules for a microwave oven... they state plug in the wall... push the buttons to the right setting... close the door and your food will cook... if you arbitrarily decide either not to plug it in or not to push the buttons the food will never cook no matter how badly you want it to... either plug it in the wall or your pressing of the buttons is meaningless... or if plugged in until you select a setting and turn on the machine... nothing will get done...
this to a tee is a conservative and a reform conversion... they decide mikvah is not required or accepting to become observant or milah etc. and then they have the audacity to demand of G-d that He come down and still change that soul from gentile to jewish... they are sick!!!! diseased and twisted rabbis and people in the leadership of these movements... misleading jews and gentiles alike on purpose... to destroy torah judaism... not to reform it or conserve it... they hate it... and intentionally mess with our religion, history and heritage... nik. out...
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Completely off topic I'm sure...but I'm Jewish ;)
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Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?
Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.
syrian jews don't accept any converts?
No, not in the sense of marriage at least. I believe they say that one has to prove that they are Jewish by at least 3 generations in order to be accepted. They are strict and I heard of only 1 case where they allowed it because Rav Ovadia Yosef personally forced it upon them to accept this couple where their was a Syrian guy and this truly rightious convert (or daughter of converts) who has converted even before they meet. I respect that and it truly saved their community from assimilation (even thought their are allways a few rotten apples- very very few).
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Re: how many Jews are in the forum?
you are all missing the point here... the torah of G-d says that there is a three step process to conversion (4 for a man)... first acceptance of all the mitzvot... pledging to be observant... then brit milah by a kosher mohel if a male convert... then mikvah and in the time of the temple a sacrifice to complete the transformation... these are the rules and regs. stipulated by G-d not man on who is a converted jew and whether or not their goyish soul was removed and a jewish one inserted in the person's body...
look at it it like the rules for a microwave oven... they state plug in the wall... push the buttons to the right setting... close the door and your food will cook... if you arbitrarily decide either not to plug it in or not to push the buttons the food will never cook no matter how badly you want it to... either plug it in the wall or your pressing of the buttons is meaningless... or if plugged in until you select a setting and turn on the machine... nothing will get done...
this to a tee is a conservative and a reform conversion... they decide mikvah is not required or accepting to become observant or milah etc. and then they have the audacity to demand of G-d that He come down and still change that soul from gentile to jewish... they are sick!!!! diseased and twisted rabbis and people in the leadership of these movements... misleading jews and gentiles alike on purpose... to destroy torah judaism... not to reform it or conserve it... they hate it... and intentionally mess with our religion, history and heritage... nik. out...
1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion? This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.
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Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?
Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.
syrian jews don't accept any converts?
No, not in the sense of marriage at least. I believe they say that one has to prove that they are Jewish by at least 3 generations in order to be accepted. They are strict and I heard of only 1 case where they allowed it because Rav Ovadia Yosef personally forced it upon them to accept this couple where their was a Syrian guy and this truly rightious convert (or daughter of converts) who has converted even before they meet. I respect that and it truly saved their community from assimilation (even thought their are allways a few rotten apples- very very few).
Yeh syrian jews are hard to marry if you aren't syrian yourself.
The same goes with Mashadi Jews.
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1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion? This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.
So since there is no Temple yet (also hopefully soon it will be rebuilt) then baal teshuvas can't really be BTs?
No, it is nonsense. pay no attention to whoever said that.. whether it was dr dan (who does not seem to be orthodox). Or tzvi. Probably dr dan said it..
So far neither of them are even quoting right anyway.
And Converts are given total respect.. even moreso than those born jewish.. There is a famous letter written by a convert to the RAMBAM, where the convert wrote of how he was looked down upon. The RAMBAM wrote back about how great the guy was, and saying something along the lines of , and this is a very vague recollection. "there are 36 places in the talmud where it talks of respecting the convert. Show this to the jews / rabbis in your area".
A convert is just as jewish as anybody born jewish.
What about other things people can do now in the mean time until we get the Temple back. I mention this because the first things christians say when they try to convert Jews, is "how are your sins forgiven without a Temple to do sacrifices?" Naturally, there are other things Jews can do in the mean time until the Temple is back.
We do have yom kippur
Also, I do not have the tenach quotes to hand, but later in the nach, after the temple was destroyed, it says that prayer replaced sacrifices
And is there really a "conversion" to Judaism? I mean in the sense that people convert to Christianity or more of a recognition to the Jewish community. I do agree with the very strict guidelines that Orthodox use for those very few gentiles who are really honesty going through gerut. And when one does finish gerut, then born Jews are not supposed to even talk to them about the time they were not Jewish etc..etc..
I lost track of what I was saying, I hope it overall makes sense.
But let us not forget that the great Rabbi Akiva was descended from "converts".
The conversion is -not- in the same sense as christianity.. Since now after converting the person is a jew, and obligated by jewish law. Whereas beforehand, they were not obligated.
A convert is 100% jewish, and I think it is even a sin to bring up about the fact that they converted.. Since it embarasses them.. A jew is a jew.
As mentioned. The rule. Mother is jewish, or converted.
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(Shemos 22:20) "You shall not do injustice or oppress a convert …"
is that a Ger(stranger). As far as the plain meaning of the text is concerned.
And the talmud says a convert. or associates not oppressing a convert with that verse
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What in the world?
A baal teshuvah is a person born a Jew who doesnt keep mitzvot or only partially and then later becomes a full fledged Torah observant Jew. ie he has done teshuva, he has returned back to the path of Judaism.
A convert is a person who is born a NONJEW and then converts to Judaism through Orthodox method according to halacha. He has now become a Jew with a Jewish soul.
Each is fully Jewish and doesn't require a Temple to gain status as such.
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here are some more
"You shall love the convert, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 10:19
"Do not hurt the feelings of a convert or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 22:20
"Do not oppress a convert, you know how it feels to be a stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 23:9
"When a convert comes to live in your land, do not hurt his feelings. The convert should be to you exactly like a born Jew and you shall love him like yourself, for you were strangers in Egypt - I am HaShem, your G-d."
VaYikra (Leviticus) 19:33-34
That plain text says GER
And that does not necessarily mean a convert
Look. Was King David a convert? (he was not)
Psalm 39:12 Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger(GER) with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.
Were jews CONVERTS TO JUDAISM (while enslaved) in the land of egypt?
that was a verse you quoted that used the word Ger.
Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"
GER means stranger. visitor.
Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.
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I am openly Jewish and see no reason why not to be.
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<snip>
interesting :o i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts
I don't recall if Ruth was King David's grandmother or great grandmother. But that is not the point. King David was NOT A CONVERT. And the verse refers to him as a Ger.
My point is the word GER doesn't mean a convert or "convert to judaism".
I had added this to my post.. I will include it here.
Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"
GER means stranger. visitor.
Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.
You actually included that verse, but translated the word GER differently at each occurrence. Once as Convert, and GERim(plural of ger), as strangers.
Strangers is correct. going on plain meaning. As shown.
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish
I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish
I don't consider liberal Jews to be real Jews.
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the rabbis decreed and Hashem therefore having given them authority to be partners with Him on jewish law... they decided the conversion would work and the sacrifice would be held in abeiance until the temple is re-built and then the ger will bring it... meanwhile they would be full jews and G-d agreed to change their souls... but all the other details must be adhered to... and while conserv. make their converts go to mikvah it doesn't count... because their rabbis are not real rabbis because they deny the validity of the sinai as a Divine manifestation and they break or agree to allow jews to break shabat, kashrut and now gay marriage etc, etc, etc... so their beit din is not a valid court which is required to be present (in the anteroom for women converts) while the mikvah lady witnesses the woman's tevilah and gives testimony on its complete and proper fulfillment right afterward... i've been on one of those courts myself once here in l.a... nik. out...
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<snip>
interesting :o i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts
I don't recall if Ruth was King David's grandmother or great grandmother. But that is not the point. King David was NOT A CONVERT. And the verse refers to him as a Ger.
My point is the word GER doesn't mean a convert or "convert to judaism".
I had added this to my post.. I will include it here.
Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"
GER means stranger. visitor.
Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.
You actually included that verse, but translated the word GER differently at each occurrence. Once as Convert, and GERim(plural of ger), as strangers.
Strangers is correct. going on plain meaning. As shown.
But you're still supposed to apply this to converts too according to Talmud or no? I mean if we can't mistreat 'strangers' since we were once strangers ourselves, than certainly we couldn't mistreat a fellow Jew (converts included).
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<snip>
interesting :o i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts
I don't recall if Ruth was King David's grandmother or great grandmother. But that is not the point. King David was NOT A CONVERT. And the verse refers to him as a Ger.
My point is the word GER doesn't mean a convert or "convert to judaism".
I had added this to my post.. I will include it here.
Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"
GER means stranger. visitor.
Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.
You actually included that verse, but translated the word GER differently at each occurrence. Once as Convert, and GERim(plural of ger), as strangers.
Strangers is correct. going on plain meaning. As shown.
But you're still supposed to apply this to converts too according to Talmud or no? I mean if we can't mistreat 'strangers' since we were once strangers ourselves, than certainly we couldn't mistreat a fellow Jew (converts included).
yes.. there is no question that we must not oppress the convert.. That is a law or teaching in the talmud.
What the talmud does sometimes is it gives a law or teaching, and uses a pasuk(verse - from tenach) as an analogy. Sometimes the law / teaching is derived from a verse. Other times it is just using a verse or passage in tenach as an analogy
Infact, don't quote me on it , but I think all our laws are sourced in the oral torah. We just find them all mentioned, hinted at, stated implicitly or stated explicitly , in the written torah. Infact, I think in an online audio rav kahane gave to YU, he once said - while critiquing a supposedly scholarly article - that we don't pasken from tenach.
Also, you have to think what the plain text (speaking of not oppressing strangers/visitors to your land) means when it says oppress. I guess it refers to real oppression. Not enslaving them.. like we were oppressed in egypt.
Being a stranger does imply, a visitor. Common sense would say that means not having a say in how the land is run. Not voting. Not your land.. Not a citizen. Being a stranger is not considered "oppression". You can have a stranger that is not oppressed.
I think the talmud actually says to love the convert.. That is in addition to the commandment of loving your neighbour. So certainly it would be true that one does not oppress the convert!
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200 billion!
I wish there were 200 billion Kahanist Jews O0 O0 O0
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish
I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish
I don't consider liberal Jews to be real Jews.
Why Jews are Jews regardless. As long as they are not self haters.
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yes.. there is no question that we must not oppress the convert.. That is a law or teaching in the talmud.
What the talmud does sometimes is it gives a law or teaching, and uses a pasuk(verse - from tenach) as an analogy. Sometimes the law / teaching is derived from a verse. Other times it is just using a verse or passage in tenach as an analogy
Infact, don't quote me on it , but I think all our laws are sourced in the oral torah. We just find them all mentioned, hinted at, stated implicitly or stated explicitly , in the written torah. Infact, I think in an online audio rav kahane gave to YU, he once said - while critiquing a supposedly scholarly article - that we don't pasken from tenach.
Also, you have to think what the plain text (speaking of not oppressing strangers/visitors to your land) means when it says oppress. I guess it refers to real oppression. Not enslaving them.. like we were oppressed in egypt.
Being a stranger does imply, a visitor. Common sense would say that means not having a say in how the land is run. Not voting. Not your land.. Not a citizen. Being a stranger is not considered "oppression". You can have a stranger that is not oppressed.
I think the talmud actually says to love the convert.. That is in addition to the commandment of loving your neighbour. So certainly it would be true that one does not oppress the convert!
Interesting, thank you.
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1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion? This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.
So since there is no Temple yet (also hopefully soon it will be rebuilt) then baal teshuvas can't really be BTs?
No, it is nonsense. pay no attention to whoever said that.. whether it was dr dan (who does not seem to be orthodox). Or tzvi. Probably dr dan said it..
So far neither of them are even quoting right anyway.
And Converts are given total respect.. even moreso than those born jewish.. There is a famous letter written by a convert to the RAMBAM, where the convert wrote of how he was looked down upon. The RAMBAM wrote back about how great the guy was, and saying something along the lines of , and this is a very vague recollection. "there are 36 places in the talmud where it talks of respecting the convert. Show this to the jews / rabbis in your area".
A convert is just as jewish as anybody born jewish.
What about other things people can do now in the mean time until we get the Temple back. I mention this because the first things christians say when they try to convert Jews, is "how are your sins forgiven without a Temple to do sacrifices?" Naturally, there are other things Jews can do in the mean time until the Temple is back.
We do have yom kippur
Also, I do not have the tenach quotes to hand, but later in the nach, after the temple was destroyed, it says that prayer replaced sacrifices
And is there really a "conversion" to Judaism? I mean in the sense that people convert to Christianity or more of a recognition to the Jewish community. I do agree with the very strict guidelines that Orthodox use for those very few gentiles who are really honesty going through gerut. And when one does finish gerut, then born Jews are not supposed to even talk to them about the time they were not Jewish etc..etc..
I lost track of what I was saying, I hope it overall makes sense.
But let us not forget that the great Rabbi Akiva was descended from "converts".
The conversion is -not- in the same sense as christianity.. Since now after converting the person is a jew, and obligated by jewish law. Whereas beforehand, they were not obligated.
A convert is 100% jewish, and I think it is even a sin to bring up about the fact that they converted.. Since it embarasses them.. A jew is a jew.
As mentioned. The rule. Mother is jewish, or converted.
thank you.
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I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish
I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...
people like him are not real Jews
They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.
The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish
I don't consider liberal Jews to be real Jews.
no, many liberal Jews are Jews, but behaving badly.
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the rabbis decreed and Hashem therefore having given them authority to be partners with Him on jewish law... they decided the conversion would work and the sacrifice would be held in abeiance until the temple is re-built and then the ger will bring it... meanwhile they would be full jews and G-d agreed to change their souls... but all the other details must be adhered to... and while conserv. make their converts go to mikvah it doesn't count... because their rabbis are not real rabbis because they deny the validity of the sinai as a Divine manifestation and they break or agree to allow jews to break shabat, kashrut and now gay marriage etc, etc, etc... so their beit din is not a valid court which is required to be present (in the anteroom for women converts) while the mikvah lady witnesses the woman's tevilah and gives testimony on its complete and proper fulfillment right afterward... i've been on one of those courts myself once here in l.a... nik. out...
Conservative rabibs deny the validity of sinai as Divine Manifestation? where is that written? And they encourage Jews to break shabbat? I know a very liberal conservative rabbi he does no such thing. So at what point is it written by conservatives to encourage breaking Shabbat and kashrut?
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200 billion!
I wish there were 200 billion Kahanist Jews O0 O0 O0
then there would be 80 trillion anti-kahanist Jews and non jews..and that many people in the world, we better have the ability to colonize planets in outer space.
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here are some more
"You shall love the convert, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 10:19
"Do not hurt the feelings of a convert or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 22:20
"Do not oppress a convert, you know how it feels to be a stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 23:9
"When a convert comes to live in your land, do not hurt his feelings. The convert should be to you exactly like a born Jew and you shall love him like yourself, for you were strangers in Egypt - I am HaShem, your G-d."
VaYikra (Leviticus) 19:33-34
That plain text says GER
And that does not necessarily mean a convert
Look. Was King David a convert? (he was not)
Psalm 39:12 Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger(GER) with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.
Were jews CONVERTS TO JUDAISM (while enslaved) in the land of egypt?
that was a verse you quoted that used the word Ger.
Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.
interesting :o i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts
King Davids great great great etc GRANDMOTHER FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FAMILY WAS ALSO A CONVERT ,RAHAB
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1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion? This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.
Jewish community. I do agree with the very strict guidelines that Orthodox use for those very few gentiles who are really honesty going through gerut. And when one does finish gerut, then born Jews are not supposed to even talk to them about the time they were not Jewish etc..etc..
I lost track of what I was saying, I hope it overall makes sense.
But let us not forget that the great Rabbi Akiva was descended from "converts".
The conversion is -not- in the same sense as christianity.. Since now after converting the person is a jew, and obligated by jewish law. Whereas beforehand, they were not obligated.
A convert is 100% jewish, and I think it is even a sin to bring up about the fact that they converted.. Since it embarasses them.. A jew is a jew.
As mentioned. The rule. Mother is jewish, or converted.
thank you.
Thank you? What do you mean? Were you... not the one who said that "converts" really never convert because there is no Temple, in other words people never convert aka that statement would pretty much question the legitimacy of "converts" or something like that. q_q_'s analysis proved that to not be accurate and it was what I was trying to say as well, since I disagreed with that suggestion.
LOL, :) silly me! I guess you were being sarcastic in the no-Temple-no-conversion comment because you were trying to argue for reform and conservative "conversions" right? If so, then I get what you were saying. Still, anyone make make the claim that "no Temple, no baal teshuvas either" Yet we know there are things Jews can do in the mean time until the Temple is back.
Well, abstaining from taking a position that Orthodox conversions are all yay and all non orthodox conversions are nay.
I'm trying to get a real explanation why non Orthodox conversions are all nays.
I'm trying to get a real explanation of why Orthodox conversions are yay.
when it was explained by one poster that basically no conversion was official until a sacrifice was done at the Temple, I questioned it by repeating the statement. It's not what i necessearily believe nor am I aware of the real Torah Jewish point of view of conversions.
As far as conversions to Judaism, I'm bound to trust a converted person to Judaism if they pursued it with their whole heart, if they are practicing a proper form of observant Judaism to the best of their abilities, and more likely to trust it if they had a conversion done with a really good Orthodox rabbi than if it were a reform or conservative rabbi, no offense to them. I would rather err on the side of caution by good rabbis who follow a more authentic form of Judaism mostly found within Orthodoxy, but not ruling out some conservative rabbis and maybe perhaps one or two reform ones although I won't go there. IN other words, you will get more of a bang for your buck with someone who follows an orthodox version of Judaism than the other movements. Yes, i'm sure there are more than a few orthodox rabbis who don't know what they're doing also, but far fewer than conservative and reform ones.
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Also, the whole Christian conversion tries to mimic "conversion" to Judaism. Which is I guess why I have a problem with using "conversion" when it comes to Judaism. You tell a Christian "I'm converting to Judaism" and they think it's the same thing as conversions as they know it. (That or you get lots of dirty looks, lol)
In fact, did anyone here know that when someone converts to Catholicism, they are Catholic to the day they die? No way out of it! Not even excommunication makes a person not catholic. Once baptized Catholic, the person is always Catholic for ever etc. And Christians say that the new convert is now a "Christian, part of the 'new' covenant" and also obliged to keep all the Christian ethics and beliefs as well as rules to the fullest. Naturally part of that is to try to convert others. So there is a major change and adaptation to new laws that new Christians must follow. I meant it in this sense.
Obviously we know that it is much different when one does do gerut to Judaism, but when people say "convert" it just reminds me too much of the way some Gentiles define it, and it bothers me because it is a lot more to become Jewish than just "converting", so much more and I am sure many here understand it, no need to explain it further...but nothing can EVER compare to it. I suppose that is why I write "convert" I like using gerut/gerus intead, personally, because it distinguishes what Gentiles think "convert" is to what we know an actual conversion to Judaism really is.
That is all. Plus I was having the most interesting conversation with a Lubavitcher who mentioned how he himself believes there to be no actual "conversion" per se (aka "conversion" as we know it), but a becoming Jewish. (which I guess is the same thing, only labeled differently, lol :laugh:)
I know that people will still use the term "conversion", it's just what everyone says, so I don't have a problem with people using it anyways. For the sake of ease and because in essence, the definition fits....we will continue to use "conversion". No need to stop.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with all you on this. O0
Conversion basically means the switching of one's soul and way of life...The key is to be completely in that realm. The truth is, the individual who is converting cannot lie to himself/herself when they do it.
Converting isn't like changing underwear.
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Dr. Dan, I totally get what you are saying. I must read a little more before I post something, lol. But no offense intended.
I realize it's a very touch subject for you..I honor those who go through a true conversion much of they way you are doing. You're dealing with a lot of tough things even once you have fully converted. I have to hand it to you, your dedication and am so glad that someone like you is going to be part of our people. :)
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hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??
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hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??
you meant Abraham and Ishmael and maybe Abraham, Issac, and Esau.
But not Abraham Ishmael and Issac since the two were half brothers.
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Why they call her a moabite if i come from the U.S. they would call me Mark the American :)
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sorry Esau it was,but i thought ethnicity has nothing to do with geography, yes i understand what you are saying mark but you are Mark an american jew.
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Why they call her a moabite if i come from the U.S. they would call me Mark the American :)
Moabites are decendents of Lot (and his daughters)
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sorry Esau it was,but i thought ethnicity has nothing to do with geography, yes i understand what you are saying mark but you are Mark an american jew.
Ethnicity is one thing...religion is another thing.
Judaism is a blur of the two.
Judaism can be considered an ethnic thing, but not completely because there are those who are not ethnically Jewish but practice Judaism and therefore are Jews and therefore can convert to this religion. THerefore, Judaism is a soulful thing. Some people are ethnically Jewish but do not practice Judaism in a way that certain people approve of. Some dont' follow Judaism at all. So, they might be ethnically Jewish, but not soulfully (although that is not completely true either).
A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion. I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.
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Yes you are totally right! To some Christians, however, it is like changing underwear. That's why I don't use the term "conversion" to Judaism with them, because they don't always understand what it really is,it is much harder than anything and to them its really not a huge change since "conversion" in Christianity is ...well.... I see Christians go from Catholic, to Christian non-denom to Mormon and then back to something else etc.. So that's way I hate the word at times. Maybe it's my background of having to talk to Christians and hearing them speak about it that makes sick of that word. So I guess I am traumatized or something.
But when I speak to Jews, I know they know what "conversion" REALLY means, and don't have to worry about it. So it's cool! O0
Eh, you're a little off on that point. Converting from on religion to another is converting.. going from one Christian denomination to a different Christian denomination is not converting.
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Dr Dan, succinctly put, thankyou.
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A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion. I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.
I think its wrong to consider Judaism as being an ethnicity, and it hurts the Jewish cause. It has the ring of Naziism, and it puts self-hating liberal athiest who happened to have Jewish parents above Jew-loving converts (Of which I know a few, and they are VERY observant).
I really think you should re-evaluate your position here.
Brian
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but judaism refers to faith Jew to ethnicity, a chinaman who believes in judaism or christianity remains a Chinaman theres no slight intended
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yes Mills converts are those that are spiritually associated which could be argued to be more important than physical association, but what i am saying is a Jew by absolute definition must come from Jacob. Now some Jews have no spirituality no conciousness of G-d and care little for thier "Jewish heritage" however the fact is they remain Jews by birth.Instance, convert in nazy germany can quickly become non convert to save some skin ,but ethnic jew finished, not that convert would do so just a possibility, i hope i haven`t offended anyone im just say ethnicity=absolute, convert spiritually simpathetic ,recognises the truth of torah,doesn`t make them Jews.
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hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??
Arabs are descended from Abraham and Ishmael, not Isaac, since Isaac and Ishamel were brothers. But Ishmael's descendants did mix with Esau, Isaac's son.
This kind of talk should remain in brian-dead forums like StørmFrønt. There is NO WAY!!!! that all Arabs are from Abraham and/or Ishamel. THis is UTTER nonsence propogated by Arab Nazis, and by books written by madmen, and by children of madmen.
And also, I am certain that there are Jews that have NO direct lineage to any of the above. whether they are Ashkenazi , Sephardi, or Mizrahi, I guarantee that in the last few millenium, there WERE families who converted to Judaism out of ideology and NOT out of blood. even though this breaks the rules.
Brian
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ok we`ll leave it there, i didn`t mean to rile you i was just talking scientific,ie physiologically
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hi i`m a newbie,I'm a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Mobutu, anyone shed some light on this for me??
Arabs are descended from Abraham and Ishmael, not Isaac, since Isaac and Ishmael were brothers. But Ishmael's descendants did mix with Esau, Isaac's son.
This kind of talk should remain in branded forums like Storefront. there is NO WAY!!!! that all Arabs are from Abraham and/or Ishmael. This is UTTER nonsense propagated by Arab Nazis, and by books written by madmen, and by children of madmen.
And also, I am certain that there are Jews that have NO direct lineage to any of the above. whether they are Ashkenazim , Farad, or Mazarin, I guarantee that in the last few millennium, there WERE families who converted to Judaism out of ideology and NOT out of blood. even though this breaks the rules.
Brian
Correct in Nazi times even non Jews who converted to Judaism were frowned upon
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A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion. I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.
I think its wrong to consider Judaism as being an ethnicity, and it hurts the Jewish cause. It has the ring of Naziism, and it puts self-hating liberal athiest who happened to have Jewish parents above Jew-loving converts (Of which I know a few, and they are VERY observant).
I really think you should re-evaluate your position here.
Brian
I don't think Jews are either/or in religion and/or ethnicity.
we know that Jews are not just an ethnicity since people who are not ethnic jews can convert to Judaism
and we konw that Jews are not just a religion since many ethnic Jews are considered to be Jews even though they don't practice Judaism, meaning they are less observant or secular (but not necessarily practicing another religion)
and if a Jew practiced Judaism which is way is really correct? or is there more than one way to be correct?
So we have ethnic Jews and we have Jews who may or may not be ethnically Jews, but practice Judaism. The bottom line is what is the roll of a righteous Jew and what is the roll of a righteous non Jew?
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mills, what do you mean anti torah, are you a convert explain anti torah!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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(Haven't read all the opove posts), but real converts are concidered Jewish in all aspects except for the fact that Jews being responsible for their actions. Like the saying that all Jews are responsible for eachother, that doesn't apply to converts, but probably (not 100% sure, but probably true) for their children. But in the other sense one has to be extra sensitive with converts, and their are many Halachot that prohibit one from saying or doing things that might hurt them, one can even put down the nation that that person came from- this was learned from Yitro, even thought he disagreed with Egypt when he heard what happened to them it did hurt him somewhat. (If you ask that he was from Midian- He was origionally from Egypt and was one of the 3 advisors to Pharoh, but then he fled after they were alking about what to do with the high Jewish birth-rate.- 3 were present Bilam said to kill them and he was later killed, Iyov was silent and he suffered throughout his life and Yitro fled in protest, and he merited having children who later sat in the Sanhedrin).
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ummmm mills gone quiet after accusing some others as being anti Torah, debate builds flez your torah muscles!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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i understand you have to be suspicious of people but we werwe debating jewishness , you seem hostile to me and i don`t want you to feel insulted i only asked questions ,you and i have the same heart toward Israel am i not entitled to ad my penny even though we may disagree we still share the same opes and fears. im not trying to insult you Mills simply stated the aims of this forum or one of them is to engage in debate,therefore strenghening our argument in any one area. i stand by what i have said but respect and honour your statements.
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appreciate what you say mills but i`m not a leftist and you still haven`t answered the anti torah questions .why say you are not here for debate when the actual thread developed into a debate and you actually contributed.
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hi MIlls just re read your last post, wow im sorry you took that personally, iv`e been unintentionally and insensitive to you, and i apollogise, im sorry. Bob
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This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
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This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.
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This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.
This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.
Yes, I agree. I cannot believe that there are those who do not accept "converts" (who converted under hallacha) as 100% Jewish. I mean, it boggles the mind. After all, it is written how born Jews must treat "converts" in other words "converts who converted", not "gentiles who converted". When they do it hallachically, then no born Jew can see them as any less, not spiritually or physically. They BOTH have that Jewish soul and they BOTH were at Mt. Sinai. Period. End of Story.
After all there have been great people who are either "converts" themselves or descended from converts, they are as Jewish as any born Jew.
Exactlly the people who become Jewish their spirits were at Sinai
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then why have these threads, when someone adds and it doesn`t fit with what most want,it all of a sudden becomes insane ,why,
i agree the site is about much more, but if this site is to be truley democratic then let people put thier penny into the slot. Dont allow a question to posited and spiral into debate and then say this is "insane" just because someone has challenged your way of thinking on a particular issue. Are yo a Jew" what is a Jew"= debate
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" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?
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" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?
Yes
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then why have these threads, when someone adds and it doesn`t fit with what most want,it all of a sudden becomes insane ,why,
i agree the site is about much more, but if this site is to be truley democratic then let people put thier penny into the slot. Dont allow a question to posited and spiral into debate and then say this is "insane" just because someone has challenged your way of thinking on a particular issue. Are yo a Jew" what is a Jew"= debate
Welcome to the forum bubby. Debate is good for certain issues but some subjects tend to cause division and hard feelings between members. We can do with out that. Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends. This forum supports JTF and its goals for Israel and America. We can't afford to be sidetracked on issues that will distract us form them goals.
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full on lets end this discussion here, i fully support everything you guys are doing, shalom
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A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion. I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.
Before anyone jumps down Dr. Dan's point, I would like to comment on it.
I think there is a point here. Naturally a non-Jew who does NOT convert but follows Judaism is not to be considered Jewish, yes this is accurate. In fact, there could be dangers since the Gentile could be imitating a Jew and should not celebrate the holidays that a Jew must.
And even with some "converts" I STILL agree with Dr. Dan's position. TRUE and genuine converts will already have that Jewish soul in them, trying to return home to Judaism. They have that spark in them, the soul is already there. Judaism was part of them always and they came home.
But other converts are NOT so genuine. And here is when it does NOT count! One should not convert to Judaism because they "want to". It's not something to take lightly, people want lots of things, so why treat Judaism like another thing someone wants. It should be something stronger than a mere "want" but a calling of the soul.
Also there are people who supposedly "fall in love" with a Jew and decide that they want to convert. They do it for someone but when they get divorced, they quickly go back to their old religion (most of the time). And then there are those who become "fascinated" with Judaism and want to learn more (I know a woman like that who converted, now she doesn't even keep Shabbat or kosher).
So all these are wrong reasons to convert and it's not really valid, so the person is not really Jewish since they were NOT being truthful and put their hole heart and soul into it. DO they have a Jewish soul. not if they were not REALLY converting because their soul directed them home.
So, in a way, I understand Dr. Dan.
well, I'll add, there are some converts who truely converted with teh right intentions who might not seem to have that Jewish soul, but are doing everythign well..Not saying you will be or are one of those types.
I think in the end, it doesn' tmatter unless you are righteous and walk with Gd and love others and try to do the right things in life.
For those converts who might not have that Jewish soul, their children definately will.
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hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??
Arabs are descended from Abraham and Ishmael, not Isaac, since Isaac and Ishamel were brothers. But Ishmael's descendants did mix with Esau, Isaac's son.
This kind of talk should remain in brian-dead forums like StørmFrønt. There is NO WAY!!!! that all Arabs are from Abraham and/or Ishamel. THis is UTTER nonsence propogated by Arab Nazis, and by books written by madmen, and by children of madmen.
And also, I am certain that there are Jews that have NO direct lineage to any of the above. whether they are Ashkenazi , Sefaradi, or Mizrahi, I guarantee that in the last few millenium, there WERE families who converted to Judaism out of ideology and NOT out of blood. even though this breaks the rules.
Brian
no Briann, most likely, most Arabs are decended from Ishmael...they didnt' just come up from thin air like that...
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" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?
excuse me dont say that parts of the Torah and hindu philosophy ::) .
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yes Mills converts are those that are spiritually associated which could be argued to be more important than physical association, but what i am saying is a Jew by absolute definition must come from Jacob. Now some Jews have no spirituality no conciousness of G-d and care little for thier "Jewish heritage" however the fact is they remain Jews by birth.Instance, convert in nazy germany can quickly become non convert to save some skin ,but ethnic jew finished, not that convert would do so just a possibility, i hope i haven`t offended anyone im just say ethnicity=absolute, convert spiritually simpathetic ,recognises the truth of torah,doesn`t make them Jews.
You are wrong. You say that a Jew "by absolute definition must come from Jacob." How many times has it already been said in this thread, A Jew by absolute definition is any person that was born to a Jewish mother or any person that converted. You are not a Jew solely by "ethnicity" or as you say "ethnicity=absolute" convert spiritually sympathetic, where did you get this garbage from? A Jew is anyone who was born Jewish or joined the Jewish nation through spiritual conversion. This is Absolute because this is ruling according to Torah. We are Jewish in our souls, and we are not a religion of genetics.
King David descended from a convert and you don't see anyone questioning whether the house of David is 'really' Jewish. They are Jewish. And from that house will come the Moschiach, may it be soon in our days.
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then why have these threads, when someone adds and it doesn`t fit with what most want,it all of a sudden becomes insane ,why,
i agree the site is about much more, but if this site is to be truley democratic then let people put thier penny into the slot. Dont allow a question to posited and spiral into debate and then say this is "insane" just because someone has challenged your way of thinking on a particular issue. Are yo a Jew" what is a Jew"= debate
Judaism is not democratic. It is defined by the Torah and the sages who were instructed by the Torah that their job is to guide us and interpret the law from the written Torah and Oral Torah.
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<snip>
no Briann, most likely, most Arabs are decended from Ishmael...they didnt' just come up from thin air like that...
there were many people on earth besides yishmael.
Only with islam, came Mohammed , who claimed descent from yishmael.
Only then did the arabs start thinking of themselves as coming from yishmael.
Nevertheless. The rabbis in the talmud , and so rabbis today, consider the arabs to be spiritually descended from yishmael. And they are..
As the tenach says. "Yishmael is a wild man, father of a wild race, his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand shall be against him".
I have told that quote to muslims, years ago when I was in a muslim area , talking to them. One of them (a somalian muslim who knew arab racism) gasped in amazement at how true it was. Another said "That cannot be there, you are just giving a quote from some book written in the last 200 years".
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Re: "...Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends..."
Precisely why I never travel to be home with the family during holidays.
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Re: "...Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends..."
Precisely why I never travel to be home with the family during holidays.
Some folks travel home only to find the family has moved and left no forwarding address ;D
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This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
Mord and everyone else! Absolutely 100% correct one hwo converts to Judaism properly is as much a Jew as if he/she was born that way... no doubt!
One person posted somethign about makign a sacrifice to the Temple as being a requirement and i simply said, "but there hasn't been a temple for 2000 years or so, therefore are all conversions nullified?"
and somebody was kind enough to respond, "no...obviously not.." and i forgot the explanation given, but it was good enough to me.
Then bubbly came along and asked about ethnic jews etc etc..and I gave my answer in terms of Jewish souls...but the reality is whether ethnic or religous, you ahve to be righteous.
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" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?
Yes
Well I don't know about Mord but I got it from Chabad, not Aish haTorah. And Chabad is NOT the only ones who believe this and it is NOT reincarnation. No one ever mentioned reincarnation ever. It has nothing to do with it. It just means that those people were born at later times, just like many of the souls who were at Mt. Sinai have NOT been born yet. WHAT ARE you talking about, really!
HA HA HA, being clever again.
No i meant what you said just like a baby born tommorow who is Jewish their soul was at Mt. Sinai so was someone who becomes Jewish their soul as well was at mt.Sinai.You don'nt need reincarnation for that.The soul is same
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This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.
This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.
Yes, I agree. I cannot believe that there are those who do not accept "converts" (who converted under hallacha) as 100% Jewish. I mean, it boggles the mind. After all, it is written how born Jews must treat "converts" in other words "converts who converted", not "gentiles who converted". When they do it hallachically, then no born Jew can see them as any less, not spiritually or physically. They BOTH have that Jewish soul and they BOTH were at Mt. Sinai. Period. End of Story.
After all there have been great people who are either "converts" themselves or descended from converts, they are as Jewish as any born Jew.
wait, he doesn't accpet converts? who said this? I haven't read this on this thread yet...i just saw one thing nik wrote and i questioned it...and bubbly only asked about ethnic Jews, but did not really get into the whole convert thing..i think this is all a misunderstanding.
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This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
Mord and everyone else! Absolutely 100% correct one hwo converts to Judaism properly is as much a Jew as if he/she was born that way... no doubt!
One person posted somethign about makign a sacrifice to the Temple as being a requirement and i simply said, "but there hasn't been a temple for 2000 years or so, therefore are all conversions nullified?"
and somebody was kind enough to respond, "no...obviously not.." and i forgot the explanation given, but it was good enough to me.
Then bubbly came along and asked about ethnic jews etc etc..and I gave my answer in terms of Jewish souls...but the reality is whether ethnic or religous, you ahve to be righteous.
True even if you are born Jewish can you be sure who your family was 1500 yrs ago
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Re: "...Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends..."
Precisely why I never travel to be home with the family during holidays.
Some folks travel home only to find the family has moved and left no forwarding address ;D
We can only hope :)
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full on lets end this discussion here, i fully support everything you guys are doing, shalom
Welcome to the forum mate ;)
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" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?
bubby, i think you are missing the point from that quote...
Jews are not just an ethnicity...with 2000 years in diaspora, i can garauntee you that Jews mixed and mingled ethnically with other races and look the way they do now...Ashkanazim with blue eyes and blonde hair? Ethipoian Jews black as night? Sephardim to look like the way the do? Or even Jews from India...or from the far east who look mongoloid? Honestly, genetically we are pretty much very disimilar from each other...
But still when you go past many generations, religious or secular, Jews can be an ethnicity...
but what about converts or children or grand children of converts? Are they ethnically Jewish? Well, does it matter? They are practicing Judaism the way they are supposed to and they converted properly..so they are Jews.
And for that matter, what's the difference? Whomever is righteous in their lifetime, Jew or nonJew gains entry for the World to Come..so really, what difference does it really make on this thread?
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A Jew who doesn't accept converts perhaps shouldn't be on this forum, let alone be a Kahanist.
Let's take a look at what Rabbi Meir Kahane had to say:
.For me, a non-Jew can become a Jew. He has the absolute right to become a Jew. We don’t have a blood monopoly. I don’t believe in blood. I believe in a culture, an idea. The Germans had no ideal. They based themselves on a concept that was solely racist. To me, a black Jew from Africa is just as Jewish as I am. Last Sunday, I made a speech at Yeruham [a development town] and I attacked the president of the town council because he had refused to admit black Jews to his town. So for me it’s not a question of race. It’s a matter of ideals. And these ideals are G~d-given; therefore these ideals have to be propagated here in Israel. Anyone who accepts these ideals is welcome among us.
Source: http://www.kahane.org/meir/interview.htm
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It does not matter if aspects of kabbalah like reincarnation, exist in other mystical philosophies, such as hinduism.
It's a concept that is very natural to ones imagination, just as the soul is. So similarly, just because some other people has dreamt up the idea of a soul, does not mean that the soul does not exist.
Furthermore, if there are complex subjects that are shared, that can be explained too..
We used to have schools of prophecy, lots and lots of prophets.
The book of prophets only mentions those whose prophecies are relevant to us today. We have had far more than the (often counted as) 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses mentioned in tenach.
According to what I read from not such a great source - the koshertorah site.
Rabbi Dovid Ben HaRAMBAM , a kabbalist/mystic, met Sufis(a bunch of arab mystics with a very generic philosophy far older than islam, that ended up islamizing their philosophy, probably to stay safe, and now most of them consider themselves muslims).
He believed that the sufis had met with and learnt something from the ancient israelite prophets that wondered around the deserts.
Also, in the so-called golden age of spain, it is possible that mystics of various religions mixed and influenced each other. This would have corrupted kabbalah, and kabbalised the mystic streams of other religions.
Also, I heard from an interview tamar yonah gave to Gutman Locks, (a secular jew that became a hindu/buddist guru in india, then returned to orthodox judaism).
The verse in Genesis that says Avraham gave gifts to the sons of the concubines. Rashi quotes a tradition that shose gifts were special names that had certain powers. There is a discussion in the gemara, that these powers are treif (not kosher) for jews to use, but ok for non-jews.
And in that section where it names children of avraham's second wife Keturah, it says them or some of them went East (this could be the india area), and it mentions their names.. some of the names are indian sounding.
One of them is called Ashram, which apparently has many scratching their heads, but one commentator says it means Tent. That is exactly what it means in hindi/the indian language.
This Gutman Locks, suspects that the name brahminism comes from abraham.
I would not look at that as facts.. the point is you can keep an open mind, and realise the picture is alot bigger than it might appear.
It is also possible that much or even all of kabbalah is wrong. Other than that which is in the talmud, that which the RAMBAM mentioned. It does not matter that much. Kabbalah is not fundamental to judaism. It looks as itself as fundamental, and it discusses the mystical side of the fundamentals, but the fundamentals exist without it.
Just saying Oh, reincarnation exists in hinduism.. Is just irrelevant.
And also, according to "lulab", reincarnation in judaism is not of soul, but of mission.
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This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.
This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane :-\ maybe some of you have
I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.
Yes, I agree. I cannot believe that there are those who do not accept "converts" (who converted under hallacha) as 100% Jewish. I mean, it boggles the mind. After all, it is written how born Jews must treat "converts" in other words "converts who converted", not "gentiles who converted". When they do it hallachically, then no born Jew can see them as any less, not spiritually or physically. They BOTH have that Jewish soul and they BOTH were at Mt. Sinai. Period. End of Story.
After all there have been great people who are either "converts" themselves or descended from converts, they are as Jewish as any born Jew.
wait, he doesn't accpet converts? who said this? I haven't read this on this thread yet...i just saw one thing nik wrote and i questioned it...and bubbly only asked about ethnic Jews, but did not really get into the whole convert thing..i think this is all a misunderstanding.
Dan, I was not talking about you! I know YOU accept converts. LOL. I was talking about someone else who said that to be a legitimate Jew, you need to be related to Abraham by blood.
You did NOT say this. I was referring to the person that everyone else is also referring to. No need to mention names.
I know i didn't say that..but i dont' think that other guy said it either...i think what he wrote got lost in the translation. He was adding a question about ethnicity and i answered it saying that with Jews and Judaism it is both an ethnicity and religion.
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dr. dan go online to the conservative movements congress or rabbinical union or whatever they call it these days... read their bylaws and you will see their positions on shabat etc. yes they tell their adherents that to drive to synagogue is permitted on shabat... and even though they say this all it is permitted for... but therein lies the sham and the fraud... because shabat is sacred to not do a single creative action or melacha to transform nature to our will and it matters not for what reason we wish to do so... with the only exception being to save human life... and yes they say the torah is not absolute Divinity otherwise how could they tamper with it... with their sick philosophy of "a living evolving document..." and all that rubbish...? nik. out...
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great discussion,sorry you seem to take this so seriously mills.this debate has and will roll on for years to come. for me i embrace anyone who defends the right of israel to exhist and exhist in piece Jew and Gentile however they are defined.
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I was talking about the person who who said that to be a legitimate Jew, you need to be related to Abraham by blood, in the "absolute". One does not need to say one thing to actually mean it. I am not the only who feels that this person is not accepting "converts" due to "blood" issues. No need to mention names.
Besides, others agree with me that this is what that person is implying about "converts"
I'm sure Ruth was a blood relative of Avraham Avinu. :D ;D
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Alot of people that talk about the definition of a jew, do not have a clue what they`re talking about, and should never be taken seriously. These clueless people are like liberals/leftists.
These people are religiously liberal and talking out of their "imagination"/rear end. And everything they say has as much value as manure, except what they say doesn`t help fertilize the ground.
They should be responded to. But as a warning to others. It is good enough for a few people that do have a clue, to respond very briefly, just identifying them or the post.. as nonsense.
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Great we have 28 and 1 not sure :)
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dr. dan go online to the conservative movements congress or rabbinical union or whatever they call it these days... read their bylaws and you will see their positions on shabat etc. yes they tell their adherents that to drive to synagogue is permitted on shabat... and even though they say this all it is permitted for... but therein lies the sham and the fraud... because shabat is sacred to not do a single creative action or melacha to transform nature to our will and it matters not for what reason we wish to do so... with the only exception being to save human life... and yes they say the torah is not absolute Divinity otherwise how could they tamper with it... with their sick philosophy of "a living evolving document..." and all that rubbish...? nik. out...
please send me the link...because I don't know where you are getting yoru actual information from.
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An orthodox conversion is is fine ,not talking about reform or reconstruction
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I was reading an article about Jewish weddings in Israel yesterday. Apparently, it's becoming quite a chore for people who want to get married. They have to prove without a doubt that they're Jewish and certain documentation is required, if they want a religious wedding. It was pretty interesting and raised questions over who is considered Jewish, by the various so-called Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox groupings. I'm Jewish by the way. O0
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i don't have a specific link... read rabbi antleman's two-volume book... "to eliminate the opiate" how conservative judaism was hatched in amer. to undermine authentic torah... read barry chamish's book on sabateanism to see the link bet. amer. "rabbis" and "lay leaders (sic) attempts to undermine with labor zionism the saving of europ. torah jewry and of course the protest-boycott movement to topple germany and hitler financially which almost worked from the grassroots but was ruined and foiled by weizman and ss weiss both nazi-bastard-jews... see hirhome.com for that last discussion...
reform and conserv. judaism is satanic and was not founded to reform torah judaism or conserve it but to undermine it and destroy it... it is well known they allow chillul shabat to get to shul so i'm not going to waste my time doing the research for you... go to the bylaws of the conservative movement... they have a congress, seminary-system and a rabbinical union... i don't have to tell you these things... nik.
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i don't have a specific link... read rabbi antleman's two-volume book... "to eliminate the opiate" how conservative judaism was hatched in amer. to undermine authentic torah... read barry chamish's book on sabateanism to see the link bet. amer. "rabbis" and "lay leaders (sic) attempts to undermine with labor zionism the saving of europ. torah jewry and of course the protest-boycott movement to topple germany and hitler financially which almost worked from the grassroots but was ruined and foiled by weizman and ss weiss both nazi-bastard-jews... see hirhome.com for that last discussion...
reform and conserv. judaism is satanic and was not founded to reform torah judaism or conserve it but to undermine it and destroy it... it is well known they allow chillul shabat to get to shul so i'm not going to waste my time doing the research for you... go to the bylaws of the conservative movement... they have a congress, seminary-system and a rabbinical union... i don't have to tell you these things... nik.
nik all you have done is spill vile curses at conservative and reform judaism and expressed sources of books based on people's opinions of conservative and reform judaism. Can you please divulge an actual source written by those who follow conservative and reform Judaism and their actual views?
All i know about thsoe two movements is how much you hate them...that's just peachy keen jelly bean..but i want to konw specificially from the mouths of these movements which you hate and curse so much what they actually believe in their own words...and perhaps I can judge for myself if they are actually rewriting the Torah or simply interpreting the Torah differently but not rewriting it.
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nik all you have done is spill vile curses at conservative and reform judaism and expressed sources of books based on people's opinions of conservative and reform judaism. Can you please divulge an actual source written by those who follow conservative and reform Judaism and their actual views?
All i know about thsoe two movements is how much you hate them...that's just peachy keen jelly bean..but i want to konw specificially from the mouths of these movements which you hate and curse so much what they actually believe in their own words...and perhaps I can judge for myself if they are actually rewriting the Torah or simply interpreting the Torah differently but not rewriting it.
[/quote]
Last year, the "Conservative Movement" maintained their status quo about gay rabbis and gay marriage. However, they had three rulings. And one of them approved of gay rabbis and gay marriage. So they basically gave a vague response about gay rabbis and gay marriage.
There were three "teshuvas." Two of them upheld the bans on gay rabbis and gay marriage.
The third ruling that approved of it was a contradiction because it disapproved of non-heterosexual sexual relations. So it upheld the ban on that but approved of them being allowed to become rabbis and marry, despite disapproving the behavior. So they would allow them to get married but disapprove of their behavior or pretend that they wouldn't have sexual relations.
So obviously some rabbis in the "Conservative Movement" decided that they wanted to give priority to the gay marriage agenda rather than follow the Torah.
Thus, the reform movement basically interprets the Torah to fit things to their agenda and some rabbis in the "Conservative Movement' do the same.
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...at least we can all agree that Ron Jeremy isn't doing us any favors by telling the world that he's a Jew... No real Jew would have "illicit sexual relations" with over 4 thousand women and then brag about it... He's like Spitzer, a gosh darn disgrace of a man...
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I was watching a program on late.. some guy , surname was probably Goldberg, who was a journalist in teh porn industry was talking about how he would reviews films..
When he talked about his work, he said "As we say in israel, it`s a mitzva".
what a chillul hashem. (public sin, public desecration of G-d`s name/torah!)
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nik all you have done is spill vile curses at conservative and reform judaism and expressed sources of books based on people's opinions of conservative and reform judaism. Can you please divulge an actual source written by those who follow conservative and reform Judaism and their actual views?
All i know about thsoe two movements is how much you hate them...that's just peachy keen jelly bean..but i want to konw specificially from the mouths of these movements which you hate and curse so much what they actually believe in their own words...and perhaps I can judge for myself if they are actually rewriting the Torah or simply interpreting the Torah differently but not rewriting it.
Last year, the "Conservative Movement" maintained their status quo about gay rabbis and gay marriage. However, they had three rulings. And one of them approved of gay rabbis and gay marriage. So they basically gave a vague response about gay rabbis and gay marriage.
There were three "teshuvas." Two of them upheld the bans on gay rabbis and gay marriage.
The third ruling that approved of it was a contradiction because it disapproved of non-heterosexual sexual relations. So it upheld the ban on that but approved of them being allowed to become rabbis and marry, despite disapproving the behavior. So they would allow them to get married but disapprove of their behavior or pretend that they wouldn't have sexual relations.
So obviously some rabbis in the "Conservative Movement" decided that they wanted to give priority to the gay marriage agenda rather than follow the Torah.
Thus, the reform movement basically interprets the Torah to fit things to their agenda and some rabbis in the "Conservative Movement' do the same.
[/quote]
can i have this in writing from the actual conservative movement? And also the stuff about Shabbat and kashrut.
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...at least we can all agree that Ron Jeremy isn't doing us any favors by telling the world that he's a Jew... No real Jew would have "illicit sexual relations" with over 4 thousand women and then brag about it... He's like Spitzer, a gosh darn disgrace of a man...
ron just doing his job.... :P
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I was reading an article about Jewish weddings in Israel yesterday. Apparently, it's becoming quite a chore for people who want to get married. They have to prove without a doubt that they're Jewish and certain documentation is required, if they want a religious wedding. It was pretty interesting and raised questions over who is considered Jewish, by the various so-called Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox groupings. I'm Jewish by the way. O0
Non-religious weddings aren't recognized in Israel. Self-hating Jews have to go to Cyprus to have Secular weddings. Some of them then have a Deform or Conserved wedding once they get back to Israel. But if someone has a Non-Orthodox wedding, if they want to get divorced they still need an Orthodox get because any marriage between a Jewish man and woman is binding according to Halacha, even civil weddings. So if they don't get an Orthodox get, any future kids the woman would have from another man would be mamzerim.
Jews that want to marry goyim also go to Cyprus to get married. The Israeli Government will regognize any marriage that takes place outside of Israel but inside Israel, it has to be religious, and for Jews, that means Orthodox.
with a mekhitza? :(
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<snip>
with a mekhitza? :(
So what?
look, are you some liberal crazy..
So what if you are separated from women during the celebration and wedding. It is less than one day.
You want to have chats with them? Are you nuts? You like ballet and soaps? Do it another time.
And if you are thinking of doing more than that. It is not really the time or place.
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<snip>
with a mekhitza? :(
So what?
look, are you some liberal crazy..
So what if you are separated from women during the celebration and wedding. It is less than one day.
You want to have chats with them? Are you nuts? You like ballet and soaps? Do it another time.
And if you are thinking of doing more than that. It is not really the time or place.
The thing is...men and women dancing togehter..families dancing together doesn't offend me...nor does it make me hornier or think about sex with unmarried women..
So, it's, in the future, me and my wife's wedding..we will decide what is best for ourselves and our guests..not someone who hardly knows me or my family or my guests...Jew or gentile.
You can have your mekhitza all you want whenever you want.
If i married a very traditional girl and she wanted a mekhitza, I would be ok with it at least in the first half of the wedding...
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I was reading an article about Jewish weddings in Israel yesterday. Apparently, it's becoming quite a chore for people who want to get married. They have to prove without a doubt that they're Jewish and certain documentation is required, if they want a religious wedding. It was pretty interesting and raised questions over who is considered Jewish, by the various so-called Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox groupings. I'm Jewish by the way. O0
Non-religious weddings aren't recognized in Israel. Self-hating Jews have to go to Cyprus to have Secular weddings. Some of them then have a Deform or Conserved wedding once they get back to Israel. But if someone has a Non-Orthodox wedding, if they want to get divorced they still need an Orthodox get because any marriage between a Jewish man and woman is binding according to Halacha, even civil weddings. So if they don't get an Orthodox get, any future kids the woman would have from another man would be mamzerim.
Jews that want to marry goyim also go to Cyprus to get married. The Israeli Government will regognize any marriage that takes place outside of Israel but inside Israel, it has to be religious, and for Jews, that means Orthodox.
with a mekhitza? :(
No.
Non-religious Orthodox wedding in Israel even have self-hating loud music and mixed dancing. But the service is done by an Orthodox rabbi although the self-hating Jews in Israel don't have a proper wedding seuda.
Even not all religious Orthodox weddings have a mechitza, but just seperate dancing.
thank you yaacov, I can accept that...most jewish weddings that i go to which are not necessarily religious do have a lot of separate dancing..but towards the middle to end of the wedding, men and women will dance with each other...mostly husband with wife or families with each other...or if a guy meets a girl...but there isn't any touching or bumping and grinding...not sure if you ahve ever seen persian dancing..nobody touches the other. Lots of wrist twisting...
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what is dancing with the opposite sex, if not sexual teasing?
it is certainly showing off of some kind.
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what is dancing with the opposite sex, if not sexual teasing?
it is certainly showing off of some kind.
maybe for you it is..
For me it isnt
However, I woudl agree to the point if there is bumping and grinding and rubbing frontal and back body parts on each other...
but just simple dancing like friends and family dance...it's not a tease to me.
Maybe you need to get out more often if things like that are a tease to you.
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what is dancing with the opposite sex, if not sexual teasing?
it is certainly showing off of some kind.
maybe for you it is..
For me it isnt
However, I woudl agree to the point if there is bumping and grinding and rubbing frontal and back body parts on each other...
but just simple dancing like friends and family dance...it's not a tease to me.
Maybe you need to get out more often if things like that are a tease to you.
My point is that if it is not a tease then what is it?
Like a child or mental case that likes to jump about.. ?
I know girls might like it, I am not asking why they like it. And you are not a girl.
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I think intergender dancing is sexual. When I liked to dance with women, I just wanted to touch the body of a woman. I just wanted to slow dance. Now I know it's wrong so I don't dance with women. Even when I wanted to dance with women, there were only a few occasions where I actually go to.
ok, i understand that is the case with you and others...It's not the case with me.
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what is dancing with the opposite sex, if not sexual teasing?
it is certainly showing off of some kind.
maybe for you it is..
For me it isnt
However, I woudl agree to the point if there is bumping and grinding and rubbing frontal and back body parts on each other...
but just simple dancing like friends and family dance...it's not a tease to me.
Maybe you need to get out more often if things like that are a tease to you.
My point is that if it is not a tease then what is it?
Like a child or mental case that likes to jump about.. ?
I know girls might like it, I am not asking why they like it. And you are not a girl.
When i go out and there is good music, I like to bop up and down and move all around...and i don't care who i'm dancing with to be honest.
But if i'm dancing like that with another guy, I would be afraid people would think I were gay..maybe get some homosexual men to hit on me...So really, it works in my favor to prefer women to dance with...
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Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.
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Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.
i hear you and have heard this many times..but i want to see in writing the decree teh Conservative and Reform movements have made on kashrut, on shabbat, and on homosexuality..at least those three.
I dont' want to read what you heard or from a pronounced orthodox Jew about his point of view of conservative and reform movements. I want to read the conservative and reform movements wording for myself just be sure they aren't being misunderstood. that's all.
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I think intergender dancing is sexual. When I liked to dance with women, I just wanted to touch the body of a woman. I just wanted to slow dance. Now I know it's wrong so I don't dance with women. Even when I wanted to dance with women, there were only a few occasions where I actually go to.
ok, i understand that is the case with you and others...It's not the case with me.
I understand, and myself had that question in mind- actually more about what will all the relatives etc. say and think about having a mehitza, and "its not that big of a deal" etc. BUT even if you aren't affected by it, others might. Men might look at other women, and another man's wife. It could lead to jealousy, and lust and many other bad things. If it your wedding night you dont want to start your married life with alll the sins accumulated on of your wedding night. Just think of it like this in Iran did your grandparents involve themselves in this type of behavior? They most probably didn't (would be 98% sure), having all these breakdowns we see all the problems that society faces. (all the fights, jealousy, divorce, etc.)
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Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.
i hear you and have heard this many times..but i want to see in writing the decree teh Conservative and Reform movements have made on kashrut, on shabbat, and on homosexuality..at least those three.
I dont' want to read what you heard or from a pronounced orthodox Jew about his point of view of conservative and reform movements. I want to read the conservative and reform movements wording for myself just be sure they aren't being misunderstood. that's all.
Then you would have to research it yourself. If you have Shalom t.v. you can listin to an interview they have with the head of the reform movement YSV. It was also openly in the news. I dont want to spend time, learning Torah from the klippot, because it is truly a waste.
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I think intergender dancing is sexual. When I liked to dance with women, I just wanted to touch the body of a woman. I just wanted to slow dance. Now I know it's wrong so I don't dance with women. Even when I wanted to dance with women, there were only a few occasions where I actually go to.
ok, i understand that is the case with you and others...It's not the case with me.
I understand, and myself had that question in mind- actually more about what will all the relatives etc. say and think about having a mehitza, and "its not that big of a deal" etc. BUT even if you aren't affected by it, others might. Men might look at other women, and another man's wife. It could lead to jealousy, and lust and many other bad things. If it your wedding night you dont want to start your married life with alll the sins accumulated on of your wedding night. Just think of it like this in Iran did your grandparents involve themselves in this type of behavior? They most probably didn't (would be 98% sure), having all these breakdowns we see all the problems that society faces. (all the fights, jealousy, divorce, etc.)
well, it wasn't because of a mekhitza. I do understand what you are saying about jealous husbands (or jealous wives) accumulating on a wedding day. But it doesn't have to involve dancing... I mean one can know who's wife belongs to whom and be jealous on other occaions and have nothing to do wtih dancing...i mean in shul on Yom Kippur such things can happen just as easily.
Secondly, women check each other out and sometimes get turned on...Sometimes, a woman will be jealous about how another woman looks with her type of figure etc etc and become insane from it and speak Lashon hara. So, it technically can be a danger in either way in either place the same way.
My experience with weddings without mekhitzas is that int eh begining especially the men only dance with each other while the women only dance with each other. Towards the middle of the wedding, everyone dances with each other..and my experience there has been no bumping and grinding or any dirty type of dancing or even dancing that involves touching in any inappropriate way between strangers. Yes, there are slow dances between couples, but that's far adn few between and there isn't any of the body against body contact.
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Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.
i hear you and have heard this many times..but i want to see in writing the decree teh Conservative and Reform movements have made on kashrut, on shabbat, and on homosexuality..at least those three.
I dont' want to read what you heard or from a pronounced orthodox Jew about his point of view of conservative and reform movements. I want to read the conservative and reform movements wording for myself just be sure they aren't being misunderstood. that's all.
Then you would have to research it yourself. If you have Shalom t.v. you can listin to an interview they have with the head of the reform movement YSV. It was also openly in the news. I dont want to spend time, learning Torah from the klippot, because it is truly a waste.
you're probably right...
And listen, me asking these questions is in no way my disagreement with the rest of you about the reform and conservative movements. I just need to look at it for myself. I disagree with the approach the more liberal movements make in regards to the Torah rules. I do not disagree with the approach of interpreting things differently, on the other hand. However, it's more prudent that if one were to interpret Torah rules to make it "convenient" for today's time without changing the actual Torah Rules, that they look back at past commentary by the khakahmeem.
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no... dr. dan... the books are not just his opinions... he brings documented proofs to his contentions... you are afraid of the truth... you refuse to look up the conservative movement bylaws and you tell us all what a book says and why it says what it says without ever having heard of it let alone ever having read it... i've seen closedminded people before... but you take the cake... and it was baked on a shabat by a conservative or reform satanic jewish rabbi... nik. out...
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he told you right... they have a din of a church during their "prayer" services and are forbidden for us to enter like any other place of idolatry... nik.
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Many of their "rabbis" do not believe in G-d.
Their members are largely cultural jews..
A famous reform/liberal/conservative "Rabbi", in britain, Baroness Neuberger, in an interview, said that in her community, if anybody were to speak about a personal G-d that they can pray to, then everybody else would look at them like they were mad.
Another one, "Rabbi" Dr Jonathan Romain, has written of his wish to literally rewrite the bible, removing the violent parts. I would call them ministers, not rabbis.. And their place is not a synagogue.. and certainly not a "temple".
They only call it temple, because they don't believe the temple will be rebuilt. So they call their "synagogues" "temples". So people forget about it.
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no... dr. dan... the books are not just his opinions... he brings documented proofs to his contentions... you are afraid of the truth... you refuse to look up the conservative movement bylaws and you tell us all what a book says and why it says what it says without ever having heard of it let alone ever having read it... i've seen closedminded people before... but you take the cake... and it was baked on a shabat by a conservative or reform satanic jewish rabbi... nik. out...
nik, you're one angry mo-fo! I'm not afraid of any truth. I'm afraid of your hot temper and blood pressure everytime you think of the "satanic" conservative and reform movements.
Funny that you call me close minded. Here I am on this wonderful forum for over a year or so..never been banned...very well respected by people who agree and disagree wtih me...and part of a diversity of people who have views very different from mine...likewise same with our great Chaim...and you call me closed minded.
Haha, I take the cake that was cooked on shabbat by a conservative or reform "satanic" rabbi. Funny...I'll hand it to you. You DO have a sense of humor.
Funny, last i checked, two of the satanic conservative rabbis i learned from kept shomer shabbat including the driving of automobiles on shabbat and live near the shul...so, don't know what to say 'bout that, buddy boy.
Now, granted, the conservative rabbis are very liberal compared to the orthodox ones. I woudl rather take my chance with the Orthodox rabbis knowing that I don't know enough about Judaism. Someone who is giong to take a chance with a conservative rabbi has to know Torah and Talmud really realy really really really really really well to understand where they are coming from. And if anyone is changing rules and changing the words as it is actually written, they are doing the wron gthing. If they are interpreting something twisting the words in such a way that it can be used by conservative or reform ideology, that's another story, but it's a dangerous thing to do. Yo uhave to really relaly really know Torah and Talmud to do that properly.
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Yes you are totally right! To some Christians, however, it is like changing underwear. That's why I don't use the term "conversion" to Judaism with them, because they don't always understand what it really is,it is much harder than anything and to them its really not a huge change since "conversion" in Christianity is ...well.... I see Christians go from Catholic, to Christian non-denom to Mormon and then back to something else etc.. So that's way I hate the word at times. Maybe it's my background of having to talk to Christians and hearing them speak about it that makes sick of that word. So I guess I am traumatized or something.
But when I speak to Jews, I know they know what "conversion" REALLY means, and don't have to worry about it. So it's cool! O0
Eh, you're a little off on that point. Converting from on religion to another is converting.. going from one Christian denomination to a different Christian denomination is not converting.
That's just how some people called it. A sort of minor "conversion" to Mormonism is an example to those mormons I met and converted from other religions, and some Catholics I've spoken to and so on. Sometimes Catholics call it being "received" if someone was Anglican first. But it's more of the constant change in religion I was referring to, and less of the actual term, since it varies from person to person. I never heard a christian say otherwise until now, hence I still call it conversion as do others and so on. No offense though, since we are entitled to our own opinion on any matter. O0
This is not true when it comes to the Orthodox Christians, which is all I can speak for (Greek Orthodox specifically). Conversion is a big deal that involves a person making the decision on their own and studying and learning about the religion with a priest. The whole process can take many months to complete and should not be entered into lightly.
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I tried to look up some quotes from the Conservative and Reform movement but there was just too many sites and not enough info. The Conservative website was not too helpful, it just told you talk to your local Rabbi.
But I did get this link: http://www.convert.org/movement.htm (http://www.convert.org/movement.htm)
All I know is that my Chabad Rabbi, a while back, told me to not enter a reform or conservative synagogue since they are both "abominations" and said it was preferable to not hear the Shofar than to enter such places. I got it as an email that was sent to everyone else.
I disagree with that. However, that's why the chabads are popping up everywhere..so I welcome that and I welcome the peaceful replacement of chabad shuls of the conservative and reform ones.
I'll only say one thing that is controversial that I don't like about the Orthodox shuls I have walked into. They aren't down to earth. The message of the Conservative movement, like it or not, is down to earth a lot of the time to me. They don't rely nor hope for miracles every Shabbat.
I'm not saying that all I wnat to hear is down to earth stuff all the time when Im' in shul. I want to hear the other stuff about miracles, about the rabbis' wisdom, hope for the future, and moshiach too, but not constantly thrown down my throat.
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he told you right... they have a din of a church during their "prayer" services and are forbidden for us to enter like any other place of idolatry... nik.
You sure know how to kill of the Jews, nik...with that attitude, another 6 million will disappear.
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Many of their "rabbis" do not believe in G-d.
Their members are largely cultural jews..
A famous reform/liberal/conservative "Rabbi", in britain, Baroness Neuberger, in an interview, said that in her community, if anybody were to speak about a personal G-d that they can pray to, then everybody else would look at them like they were mad.
Another one, "Rabbi" Dr Jonathan Romain, has written of his wish to literally rewrite the bible, removing the violent parts. I would call them ministers, not rabbis.. And their place is not a synagogue.. and certainly not a "temple".
They only call it temple, because they don't believe the temple will be rebuilt. So they call their "synagogues" "temples". So people forget about it.
WOW, is all I can see.
So, cultural Jews, eh. Or as some people call them "Chanukah Jews", not "acting" Jewish throughout the year except when it comes to get their Chanukah presents.
Mills, don't listen to these freaks. It's people like nik that create conserved and deformed movements.
Hello!!! I grew up as part of the "conserved" movement. And I'm here and i'm not saying I agree with the movement..but the hatred of fellow Jews who might not be Orthodox, but love Judaism and love Israel and love fellow Jews is not the way to be. Part of converting to Judaism is loving your fellow Jew, even that ignorant one that doesn't believe in Gd. And by loving, it doesn't mean letting him go astray. It means also rebuking, but not cursing. It means loving, not hating.
Nik, is an angry man...so too bad he puts it out on other fellow Jews. The right way to channel anger, as the Rebbe implied, is to study Torah and sing about it in the streets (or something like that). Cursing other Jews out is very very wrong. Rebuking and disagreeing is right.
(OOO 4000 posts! yay!)
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Many of their "rabbis" do not believe in G-d.
Their members are largely cultural jews..
A famous reform/liberal/conservative "Rabbi", in britain, Baroness Neuberger, in an interview, said that in her community, if anybody were to speak about a personal G-d that they can pray to, then everybody else would look at them like they were mad.
Another one, "Rabbi" Dr Jonathan Romain, has written of his wish to literally rewrite the bible, removing the violent parts. I would call them ministers, not rabbis.. And their place is not a synagogue.. and certainly not a "temple".
They only call it temple, because they don't believe the temple will be rebuilt. So they call their "synagogues" "temples". So people forget about it.
WOW, is all I can see.
So, cultural Jews, eh. Or as some people call them "Chanukah Jews", not "acting" Jewish throughout the year except when it comes to get their Chanukah presents.
There are rosh hashana yom kippur jews.. They probably like purim and chanukah too.
I wouldn't call them chanukah jews though.. And I am sure that neither would Kahane. Kahane wrote an article, sarcastically titled "down with chanukah".. on how chanukah is so popular, yet the lesson of chanukah is so foreign to jews today. Kahane was a maccabee.
What I said is verifiable and well known.
Not to be confused with people linking the reform/conservative movement to the shabbetai tzvi who believed in being righteous through sin. There is some basis to that too.. I have read rabbi antelman's "to eliminate the opiate" vol 1 and 2, and I have checked his references, largely "the messianic idea in judaism" by gershom scholem. But really you don't need to speculate or go into that..
Reform, based on what the reform leaders have said themselves. Is just not worth the time of day.
This from David Friedlander - wikipedia
" Friedländer's open letter (Sendschreiben) "in the name of some Jewish heads of families," stated that Jews would be ready to undergo "dry baptism": join the Lutheran Church on the basis of shared moral values if they were not required to believe in the divinity of Jesus and might evade certain Christian ceremonies.
"
And it mentions moses mendellsohn.. Rabbi antelman published his ordination certificate which has sabbeatean codewords.. very odd.
And sabbeteans believed in being righteous through sin. some still exist today (donmeh west website)
But you can see enough just looking at todays reform/liberal/conservative ministers.. As I said, as examples. neuberger , jonathan romain, e.t.c.
They are not sinister sabbateans.. Just idiots, cultural jews with some weak attachment to being jewish.
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Chanukah has become a self debasing joke in America.
We get the kids some chocolate gelt and we out do our goyishe neighbors with eight days of gift giving. What a commercialized sickness this has become. When I was working as a cashier I remember this modelesque Jewish woman was shopping with her two children. I didn't know she was Jewish until I saw the Chanukah menorah in her shopping cart. I start a conversation with her. "You're celebrating Chanukah. That's nice, etc. etc." And then she says "Yeah, and we also celebrate Christmas..." Intermarried. No clue what the real meaning of Chanukah is. What a disgrace.
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I'm sorry, Dr. Dan. I didn't mean to insult you. I can respect your opinion.
I myself, have never been to anything Conservative. I was just scared after what my Rabbi said that I wont go to one. But if you grew up in it, then surely you must have great memories about it, and I do sense you have great pride in being Jewish. So I do not mean any disrespect on my part.
AFter you are through with your conversion and comfortable, I would say for you to walk into a reform and a conservative shul just to compare...But stay orthodox, whateve ryou do..just stay orthodox.
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That's very interesting q_q_!
<snip>
I agree with you on everything you mentioned.
You are so great it`s unbelievable!
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That's very interesting q_q_!
<snip>
I agree with you on everything you mentioned.
You are so great it`s unbelievable!
pssst q_q_. she's single...
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That's very interesting q_q_!
<snip>
I agree with you on everything you mentioned.
You are so great it`s unbelievable!
pssst q_q_. she's single...
If I thought she was married, I wouldn`t have said it.
A comment like that might cause her to demand more from her husband, and it`d be my fault!
And it would appear as if I was trying to take her away from her husband.
It would just be against the rules.
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Non-religious Orthodox wedding in Israel even have self-hating loud music and mixed dancing.
LOL, I got a kick out of that "self hating music" hahaha never heard of that kind.
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Not to be confused with people linking the reform/conservative movement to the shabbetai tzvi who believed in being righteous through sin. There is some basis to that too.. I have read rabbi antelman's "to eliminate the opiate" vol 1 and 2, and I have checked his references, largely "the messianic idea in judaism" by gershom scholem. But really you don't need to speculate or go into that..
Reform, based on what the reform leaders have said themselves. Is just not worth the time of day.
This from David Friedlander - wikipedia
" Friedländer's open letter (Sendschreiben) "in the name of some Jewish heads of families," stated that Jews would be ready to undergo "dry baptism": join the Lutheran Church on the basis of shared moral values if they were not required to believe in the divinity of Jesus and might evade certain Christian ceremonies.
"
And it mentions moses mendellsohn.. Rabbi antelman published his ordination certificate which has sabbeatean codewords.. very odd.
And sabbeteans believed in being righteous through sin. some still exist today (donmeh west website)
But you can see enough just looking at todays reform/liberal/conservative ministers.. As I said, as examples. neuberger , jonathan romain, e.t.c.
They are not sinister sabbateans.. Just idiots, cultural jews with some weak attachment to being jewish.
I've heard a lot and read a lot about this Rabbi Antelman. Do you think he is right about what he says? Was it really a Sabbatean cult? I haven't read the books yet but I would like to look into it. I'm just wondering if he is overly speculative or if he really has solid evidence on his general thesis that the beginnings of Reform and cons movements were sabbatean. I've heard him talk on the israel national radio program and he sounded absolutely convinced of his conclusions... Just wondering what you thought about the quality of evidence.
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Rabbi Antelman's work is an accurate and true documentation of the Sabbatean cult and its still ongoing damage to all Jews.
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Not to be confused with people linking the reform/conservative movement to the shabbetai tzvi who believed in being righteous through sin. There is some basis to that too.. I have read rabbi antelman's "to eliminate the opiate" vol 1 and 2, and I have checked his references, largely "the messianic idea in judaism" by gershom scholem. But really you don't need to speculate or go into that..
Reform, based on what the reform leaders have said themselves. Is just not worth the time of day.
This from David Friedlander - wikipedia
" Friedländer's open letter (Sendschreiben) "in the name of some Jewish heads of families," stated that Jews would be ready to undergo "dry baptism": join the Lutheran Church on the basis of shared moral values if they were not required to believe in the divinity of Jesus and might evade certain Christian ceremonies.
"
And it mentions moses mendellsohn.. Rabbi antelman published his ordination certificate which has sabbeatean codewords.. very odd.
And sabbeteans believed in being righteous through sin. some still exist today (donmeh west website)
But you can see enough just looking at todays reform/liberal/conservative ministers.. As I said, as examples. neuberger , jonathan romain, e.t.c.
They are not sinister sabbateans.. Just idiots, cultural jews with some weak attachment to being jewish.
I've heard a lot and read a lot about this Rabbi Antelman. Do you think he is right about what he says? Was it really a Sabbatean cult? I haven't read the books yet but I would like to look into it. I'm just wondering if he is overly speculative or if he really has solid evidence on his general thesis that the beginnings of Reform and cons movements were sabbatean. I've heard him talk on the israel national radio program and he sounded absolutely convinced of his conclusions... Just wondering what you thought about the quality of evidence.
Alot of his book is guilt by association.. He finds some connections or allegations of connections between a few leading reform ministers, and the sabbatean movement.
Nothing proving that -this was the beginning of the reform/conservative/liberal movement.
Here are some examples.
Regarding a "Rabbi" Weiss for example.. he mentions a book written by a woman that claims he had sex with her over a table, and said some verse. Rabbi antelman - who often consulted with one , maybe two professors that were experts on sabbeteans.. comments that she was not aware but that is a verse said by sabbeteans.. (sabbeans have their own anti torah theology that takes some crazy interpretations of verses in tenach to support them)
He quote gershom scholem`s findings, of some letters, that show that a leading reform/liberal/conservative minister is from a sabbetean family (may have been zecharia frankel)
I actually read an article in a left wing anti religious jewish british paper - "the jewish chronicle".. in an article in the JC , 24th jan 2008.
an article called "The Messiah Of Turkey" Revealing the life and
legacy of shabbetai sevi.
The article discusses the research of mancunian(born in manchester,
britain) writer Aubrey Ross.
Aubrey Ross is quoted in that article as writing or saying "there is even a sabbatean reform movement, and I`ve met 2 sabbateans in london, one of whom is a reform rabbi".
--
I mentioned already about moses mendellesohn (not a reform jew himself), but one of the first to teach an assimilated judaism, that undermined belief.. His children converted out of judaism, to christianity.
So.. he has hit on something..
Rabbi antelman also quoted a book, I could not get hold of.. Titled something like "The golden chain".. Which seems to discuss geneologies.
He goes way back,before Karl Marx..
And he shows that you had lots of rabbis. Great rabbis, fighting the sabbetean movement.. Rabbis like Rabbi Yaakov Emden, and others. And then you had sabbetean families. A sabbatean married into that rabbinical family, and it split off...
One side assimilated , and came up with Karl Marx.
The other side stayed true to torah and battling evil.. Rabbi Antelman said that Rabbi Kahane is a descendent of this side of it.. The good side.
Some things he mentions are very odd, and does not prove. He said that Hitler was born on purim / 12 months after purim - to the day..(the significance being that sabbateans would have an orgy on purim, and if you count 3 months to conceive, then 9 months pregnancy, that is 12 months - so purim again). It was something like that anyway.
I emailed rabbi antelman for evidence of the date he mentioned for Hitler`s birth. He said he found Hitler`s birth records in a jewish court, (rabbi antelman says Hitler had a jewish ancestor , I think on his father`s side) He said he didn`t make a copy of the birth records, but another witness to the records is Rabbi (Dubovick?) of Beitar.
So as you can see..
Some of the things he says are well documented.
Some are not well documented.
But even the well documented things just show connections here and there.
No doubt he takes it for granted that the numerous number of connections is evidence of something bigger..
The JC article about the sabbetean movement is big news .. That came years after he published his vol 2. So he clearly was on to something with the many connections he found with sabbeanism and reform leaders. But it`s not firm proof..
His contents is different to chamish, of course. Style is alot better than Chamish`s. is that he has good references, and his book is organised.. Though he does not cover anywhere near as much ground as Chamish.. (and Chamish does document the rabin thing fine)..
By the way..
Chamish , who mentioned how bad the original secular zionists were (prior to revisionist zionists like jabotinsky)
chamish mentions
this book.. Sabbatean Messianism as Proto Secularism .... by this rabbi prof avrum ehrlich. Here is his site discussing his book
http://www.avrumehrlich.net/sabbatean.htm
"
And apparently that documents something things better than rabbi antelman`s. Check this out
It is curious that Israel’s first and second Prime Ministers, David Ben Gurion and Moshe Sharett and her second president Yitzchak Ben Zvi had lived and studied in Istanbul and embraced the concept “lehitatmen”, Hebrew for “to become an Ottoman”. Ben Zvi is alleged by some to be descendent of a Sabbatean family . Sharett served in the Ottoman army in WW1. Ben Gurion gave up Russian citizenship for Ottoman citizenship, something many others in Eretz Yisrael were afraid to do. Israeli Presidents Ben Zvi, Zalman Shazar and to a lesser degree Yitzchak Navon became students of Ottomanism. The first two undertook research and wrote important works on Sabbateanism, indicating that the subject touched a nerve with their own identities as Jews who were deeply attached to their traditions, possessing messianic – Zionist aspirations but not religiously observant.
"
So yeah.. there are things going on here.. numerous connections.. very suspicious.
You won`t get signed statements from these people anyway.. And there isn`t firm proof. Just connections.
Don`t throw the evidence out because it is just "connections".. But don`t treat it like solid proof either.
It`s certainly things to bare in mind..
And of course, Ben Gurion is not a hero who if you go behind the scenes becomes a villain. It is well known that in the Altalena incident , he ordered yitzchak rabin to fire at menachem begin and begin`s men, the irgun. Destroyed hte ship too.. Which contained numerous weapons that would have belped in the 1948 war. He just wanted his army the haganah(now known as the IDF), to the run the show, and not the irgun. And he was more than willing to kill jews.
And as mentioned.. you don`t need to go behind the scenes to find out how bad reform/conservative/liberal are.. just listen to their spokesman.. saying they don`t believe in a personal G-d you can pray to.
You won`t convince a skeptic with this sabbatean evidence.. it is scatty and disconnected.. You may not convince yourself either, because the picture is SO incomplete and there is no firm proof or disproof of any big conclusion.. But as I said.. the evidence(there aren`re really any conclusions) are certainly worth baring in mind, and it is cause for suspicion. Even if it is not convincing.
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dr. dan... i'm very proud each and everytime i get banned... because i know i've said things that need saying and is stuff that people who are corrupt don't want coming out...
as far as your openmindedness i'd keep your day job if i were you... you are about as open as a can of tuna fish without a can opener...
all i can say in your regard about this issue is... "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him jump in and swim..." (i know the expression is "make him drink" but i wish to butcher the phrase to mess with you and be facetious)... nik. out...
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q_q very interesting. I did read about Rabbi Yaacov Emden and his fight against sabbateanism, mentioned briefly in this Jewish history book I was reading called Miraculous Journey by Rabbi Yosef Eisen. There were some very mysterious things going on in the midst of that controversy.
What was even more evil about that altalena incident with ben gurion is that there was already an agreement worked out with the Irgun over the delivery of this ship. They knew exactly what was on it and Ben Gurion arranged the agreement with the Irgun. He admitted this in his memoirs. So when they opened fire it was completely unexpected. And Begin's Irgun WAS already willing to subject itself to authority of the Haganah command and to incorporate into their overall fighting force. This was nothing more than an ambush, based solely on political rivalry and hatred. Ben Gurion sought to eliminate his opponents, in a sort of continuation/rebirth of 'the Season' collaboration with the British against Irgun and Lehi in 44. This tradition has been carried on by the leftists of modern times.
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dr. dan... i'm very proud each and everytime i get banned... because i know i've said things that need saying and is stuff that people who are corrupt don't want coming out...
as far as your openmindedness i'd keep your day job if i were you... you are about as open as a can of tuna fish without a can opener...
all i can say in your regard about this issue is... "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him jump in and swim..." (i know the expression is "make him drink" but i wish to butcher the phrase to mess with you and be facetious)... nik. out...
I don't plan on leaving my day job, actually.
But if mind to you is as closed as can of tuna fish, you're head is stuck inside a vaccuum with your vile hatred of Jews.
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Hmmm, I've lost track of what's going on here!
Why don't we just return to the original question. Yes or No. No need for me to answer, lol.
And what's all this talk about me being single? Yes, I am stuck with that tittle, I'm an old maid :'(
A young maiden. BIG DIFFERENCE!
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Hmmm, I've lost track of what's going on here!
Why don't we just return to the original question. Yes or No. No need for me to answer, lol.
And what's all this talk about me being single? Yes, I am stuck with that tittle, I'm an old maid :'(
A young maiden. BIG DIFFERENCE!
LOL, yeah I know I'm still young, I mean I'm in my 20s and all, but at my age my mom was married with kids. So...the title society gives someone who doesn't have a husband or boyfriend is an "old maid". NOt that I even want to date but that's my "honorary tittle".
But thanks, I like your title A LOT better!
I had in mind even if you weren`t young..
You don`t look like you age quickly.. So you`ll still look in top form well into your 30s, so don`t worry about age!
In your 40s you`ll look like you`re in your 30s, so that`s still very good. If you are married by then, (you probably will be), you`ll have a very happy husband
And by the time you`re in your 50s, well, almost all women are somewhat past it at that stage. But hopefully you`ll be settled by then. 50 is a long way off!!
Remember, that former member - I won`t mention his name - He thought you were an actress.. For obvious reasons.. Putting you and "old maid" in the same sentence is a travesty of justice.
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I was going to be Jewish but I just can't handle that not eating pork thing.
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I'm not a Jew!
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yeah they're ugly alright... but who are they...? nik.
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I was going to be Jewish but I just can't handle that not eating pork thing.
Bah; easy solution; have chicken bacon instead :P
Or in my case, I'm a vegetarian, which means it make eating kosher very easy :P
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dr. dan... no... you are mistaken... i do not hate any jews... my hatred is directed at unjewish jews... erev rav jews and satanic jews... that is all... nik. out...
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dr. dan... no... you are mistaken... i do not hate any jews... my hatred is directed at unjewish jews... erev rav jews and stanic jews... that is all... nik. out...
you shouldn't hate...you should simply correct...
by hating a Jew and therefore not rebuking him/her properly, you end up doing the other evil thing.
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that should have been satanic jews... anyway don't give me all that psycho-babel... turning the other cheek is is in the a flse bible... we jews are supposed to throw the other fist even against our own when they become traitors and a threat to our survival... as the talmud says... "those who are merciful toward the cruel will in the end be cruel toward the merciful..." hatred is a mitzvah... as king david says in psalm 139... "o' L-rd i hate Your enemies with a complete hatred..." hatred is the opposite side of the coin of love... the more you love G-d, israel (jews) and the land of israel... the more passionate is your hatred toward those who would destroy them... like king david was... he stood against jew and gentile who he saw endangering our people's survival... and the more he hated the harder he fought and the greater was the level of his true love for jews, israel, G-d and torah-true judaism... so take a hike with all your excuses for not wanting to hate our far too many enemies... foreign and domestic... jew and gentile... as they and you and jews of your ilk along side them because of your tolerance and "love" for them are a threat to our very survival as a people and as a nation... nik. out...
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where are the rest of the Jews? theres more than 33
Make that 32.
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that should have been satanic jews... anyway don't give me all that psycho-babel... turning the other cheek is is in the a flse bible... we jews are supposed to throw the other fist even against our own when they become traitors and a threat to our survival... as the talmud says... "those who are merciful toward the cruel will in the end be cruel toward the merciful..." hatred is a mitzvah... as king david says in psalm 139... "o' L-rd i hate Your enemies with a complete hatred..." hatred is the opposite side of the coin of love... the more you love G-d, israel (jews) and the land of israel... the more passionate is your hatred toward those who would destroy them... like king david was... he stood against jew and gentile who he saw endangering our people's survival... and the more he hated the harder he fought and the greater was the level of his true love for jews, israel, G-d and torah-true judaism... so take a hike with all your excuses for not wanting to hate our far too many enemies... foreign and domestic... jew and gentile... as they and you and jews of your ilk along side them because of your tolerance and "love" for them are a threat to our very survival as a people and as a nation... nik. out...
I didn't say turn the other cheek...to love also includes rebuke...
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where are the rest of the Jews? theres more than 33
Make that 32.
why, if it says 33
After reading most for these posts, I want not to be included in the count.
I honestly remember now why I never moved closer to other Jews.
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where are the rest of the Jews? theres more than 33
Make that 32.
why, if it says 33
After reading most for these posts, I want not to be included in the count.
I honestly remember now why I never moved closer to other Jews.
Skippy, certain members here are not the say all to what a Jew really is...don't take anything they might say personally because i certainly do not anymore...Some people are simply nuts!!! Dr. dan out! :P
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where are the rest of the Jews? theres more than 33
Make that 32.
why, if it says 33
After reading most for these posts, I want not to be included in the count.
I honestly remember now why I never moved closer to other Jews.
Skippy, certain members here are not the say all to what a Jew really is...don't take anything they might say personally because i certainly do not anymore...Some people are simply nuts!!! Dr. dan out! :P
Oh I don't, I know insanity runs wild here :::D
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where are the rest of the Jews? theres more than 33
Make that 32.
why, if it says 33
After reading most for these posts, I want not to be included in the count.
I honestly remember now why I never moved closer to other Jews.
Skippy, certain members here are not the say all to what a Jew really is...don't take anything they might say personally because i certainly do not anymore...Some people are simply nuts!!! Dr. dan out! :P
Oh I don't, I know insanity runs wild here :::D
we need to stick together...by all means I know that we both respect observant jews and honor them. It's the haters and snobby ones we need to rebuke..remember the key word is REBUKE..not hate... Dan out! :laugh:
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It frightens me to the core that we actually have jews on this forum who consider their fellow jews inferior to them simply because they are slightly different. Hitler didn't pick and choose which jews to kill, he simply killed all of them. Instead of attacking non religious jews, lets try to make them see the light.
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It frightens me to the core that we actually have jews on this forum who consider their fellow jews inferior to them simply because they are slightly different. Hitler didn't pick and choose which jews to kill, he simply killed all of them. Instead of attacking non religious jews, lets try to make them see the light.
Yes that is. The fellow jews have been "brainwashed" and thinking being anti-jewish and self-hating is in and the new Hollywood American Bolshevik trend to be apart of.
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Lets be respectful to our fellow jews. If someone comes on this forum and supports kahnist ideas then chancer are he is not trying to copy hollywood.
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where are the rest of the Jews? theres more than 33
Make that 32.
why, if it says 33
After reading most for these posts, I want not to be included in the count.
I honestly remember now why I never moved closer to other Jews.
Skippy, certain members here are not the say all to what a Jew really is...don't take anything they might say personally because i certainly do not anymore...Some people are simply nuts!!! Dr. dan out! :P
Oh I don't, I know insanity runs wild here :::D
we need to stick together...by all means I know that we both respect observant jews and honor them. It's the haters and snobby ones we need to rebuke..remember the key word is REBUKE..not hate... Dan out! :laugh:
I agree mate. I don't hate fellow Jews, I just believe some need to pull their heads out their........
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where are the rest of the Jews? theres more than 33
Make that 32.
why, if it says 33
After reading most for these posts, I want not to be included in the count.
I honestly remember now why I never moved closer to other Jews.
Skippy, certain members here are not the say all to what a Jew really is...don't take anything they might say personally because i certainly do not anymore...Some people are simply nuts!!! Dr. dan out! :P
Oh I don't, I know insanity runs wild here :::D
we need to stick together...by all means I know that we both respect observant jews and honor them. It's the haters and snobby ones we need to rebuke..remember the key word is REBUKE..not hate... Dan out! :laugh:
I agree mate. I don't hate fellow Jews, I just believe some need to pull their heads out their........
Yes exactly O0
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2
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I am in the process of giving very deep thought as to how JTF can launch an appealing outreach mission to all Jews and to all non-Jews, to be carried out in a way which is appealing and alluring, rather than being full of rebuke.
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Are you talking about those you feel are overly religious? I happen to be overly religious, so that is why I ask.
lol.
So Skippy...can we make it 33 again? :)
Well its the unrighteous, devil sporn label kinda puts me out of the running :::D
So no I am still out thanks Mills.
You are a Great lady Mills O0
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Mills this sums up my thoughts on this.
Each Man Has A Name:
Each man has a name, given him by G-d
And given him by his father and mother.
Each man has a name given him by his stature
And his way of smiling,
And given him by his clothes.
Each man has a name given him by the mountains
And given him by his walls.
Each man has a name given him by the planets
And given him by his neighbours.
Each man has a name given him by his sins
And given him by his longing.
Each man has a name given him by his enemies
And given him by his love.
Each man has a name given him by his feast days
And given him by his craft.
Each man has a name given him by the seasons of the year
And given him by his blindness.
Each man has a name given by the sea
And given him by his death.
לכל איש יש שם
שנתן לו אלוהים
ונתנו לו אביו ואימו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו קומתו ואופן חיוכו
ונתן לו האריג
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו ההרים
ונתנו לו כתליו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו המזלות
ונתנו לו שכניו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו חטאיו
ונתנה לו כמיהתו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו שונאיו
ונתנה לו אהבתו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו חגיו
ונתנה לו מלאכתו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו תקופות השנה
ונתן לו עיורונו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתן לו הים
ונתן לו
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Mills this sums up my thoughts on this.
Each Man Has A Name:
Each man has a name, given him by G-d
And given him by his father and mother.
Each man has a name given him by his stature
And his way of smiling,
And given him by his clothes.
Each man has a name given him by the mountains
And given him by his walls.
Each man has a name given him by the planets
And given him by his neighbours.
Each man has a name given him by his sins
And given him by his longing.
Each man has a name given him by his enemies
And given him by his love.
Each man has a name given him by his feast days
And given him by his craft.
Each man has a name given him by the seasons of the year
And given him by his blindness.
Each man has a name given by the sea
And given him by his death.
לכל איש יש שם
שנתן לו אלוהים
ונתנו לו אביו ואימו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו קומתו ואופן חיוכו
ונתן לו האריג
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו ההרים
ונתנו לו כתליו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו המזלות
ונתנו לו שכניו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו חטאיו
ונתנה לו כמיהתו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו שונאיו
ונתנה לו אהבתו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו חגיו
ונתנה לו מלאכתו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתנו לו תקופות השנה
ונתן לו עיורונו
לכל איש יש שם
שנתן לו הים
ונתן לו
yeh, you're jewish..no doubt about that....
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brilliant!!!!
written by an israeli poet called zelda?
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brilliant!!!!
written by an israeli poet called zelda?
Yes I love her work, she is the most beautiful person inside and out ;)
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it is a girl`s name.
http://www.babynamesocean.com/english_names/meaning_of_Zelda.html
I wonder why they made a game where the guy was called Zelda.
A mistake, or a different meaning in japan/china?
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Yes well they are idiots.
More on this once fine woman, and very much a role model.
THE UKRAINIAN-BORN ISRAELI ORTHODOX POET ZELDA Schneersohn-Mishkovsky, better known as Zelda (1914-1984), belonged to a lineage of illustrious rabbis. Her father, Shelomoh Shalom Schneersohn, descended from the prominent Schneersohn dynasty of Habad hasidic masters, and was the uncle of the late rebbi of Lubavitch, R. Menahem Mendel Schneersohn (1902-1994). Her mother, Rachel Hen, was a descendant of the famed Sephardic dynasty of Hen-Gracian, which traces its roots to eleventh-century Barcelona, Spain. (1) Her maternal grandfather's grandfather, R. Elhanan ben Meir ben R. Elhanan, was a student of R. Shneur Zalman of Lyadi (1745-1812), the founder of Habad Hasidism. (2) In 1925 the family emigrated to Mandatory Palestine and settled in Jerusalem, a move followed by the traumatic death of both the poet's father and grandfather. Following her graduation from the Teachers' College of the religious Mizrahi movement in 1932, Zelda moved to Tel Aviv and then to Haifa, where she taught until her return, with her twice-widowed mother, to Jerusalem in 1935. In 1950 she married Hayyim Mishkovsky and from then on devoted herself to writing. Although she began writing in the 1930s, and publishing in the 1940s, Penai (Free Time), her first book, was not published until 1967. The book, with its rich emotive and contemplative images drawn from the world of Jewish mysticism, Hasidism, and Russian fairy tales, immediately established the poet as a major figure on the Israeli literary scene, popular with both religious and secular audiences. It was followed by Ha-Carmel ha-Ee Nireh (The Invisible Carmel), published after her husband's death in 1971, Al Tirhaq (Be Not Far, 1975), Halo Har Halo Esh (It Is Surely a Mountain, It Is Surely a Fire, 1977), 'Al ha-Shoni ha-Marhiv (On the Spectacular Difference, 1981), and she-Nivdelu mi-Kol Merhaq (That Became Separated from Every Distance, 1984). The books brought the poet several prestigious awards: the Israeli Brenner Prize (1971), the Bialik prize (1977) and the Wertheim Prize (1982).
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it is a girl`s name.
http://www.babynamesocean.com/english_names/meaning_of_Zelda.html
I wonder why they made a game where the guy was called Zelda.
A mistake, or a different meaning in japan/china?
Ah ok, I played Zelda for N64, good game :laugh:
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it is a girl`s name.
http://www.babynamesocean.com/english_names/meaning_of_Zelda.html
I wonder why they made a game where the guy was called Zelda.
A mistake, or a different meaning in japan/china?
Ah ok, I played Zelda for N64, good game :laugh:
wow, Mayer, you are young. I guess you never played the old things..
I remember this "game and watch" thing.. They were so cool.
google images handheld zelda.
We are talking 1980s (and I guess early 90s too perhaps). And pre gameboy. (gameboy came out in 1989 apparently)
I played a handheld mario like game alot. (maybe donkey kong, I don't know) And this zelda one rings a bell.
(http://www.play-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/nintendo-ds-zelda-game-and-watch-mod.jpg)
(http://www.trickmantimes.com/images/game_on_handheld_zelda.jpg)
Enjoy the nostalgia folks.
btw.. thanks Mills for the correction. Zelda is one game I never bought for my SNES. (or game boy).
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Good question! :)
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Good question! :)
After 19 pages I think we have the answer. Now who was keeping count?
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In one respect, I am a non-Jew from halacha perspective, I am Jewish from my Grandfather's lineage (technically speaking, it is based on my mother's maiden name) but somewhere along the line, my ancestors were Jewish but converted to Christianity.
In another respect, there is the concept of "gerout" (sic) which is a 'convert' although I heard a kabbalist Rabbi say there are no Jewish converts, but people with Jewish souls, people like Ruth who were adopted into the life and ways of the Hebrews.
I could become an Israeli citizen based on laws passed in the 70's, and hope to do so.
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In one respect, I am a non-Jew from halacha perspective, I am Jewish from my Grandfather's lineage (technically speaking, it is based on my mother's maiden name) but somewhere along the line, my ancestors were Jewish but converted to Christianity.
In another respect, there is the concept of "gerout" (sic) which is a 'convert' although I heard a kabbalist Rabbi say there are no Jewish converts, but people with Jewish souls, people like Ruth who were adopted into the life and ways of the Hebrews.
I could become an Israeli citizen based on laws passed in the 70's, and hope to do so.
So you can be called Hebrew or Israelite and in future Israeli but not Jew which is person practising Rabinical Judaism or born as child of Jewish mother and not practising other religion. When you want to move to israel I realy advice you to make a ortodox convertion or you'll be not warmly welcomed there by both Jewish and A-rab (christian) comunities.
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In one respect, I am a non-Jew from halacha perspective, I am Jewish from my Grandfather's lineage (technically speaking, it is based on my mother's maiden name) but somewhere along the line, my ancestors were Jewish but converted to Christianity.
In another respect, there is the concept of "gerout" (sic) which is a 'convert' although I heard a kabbalist Rabbi say there are no Jewish converts, but people with Jewish souls, people like Ruth who were adopted into the life and ways of the Hebrews.
I could become an Israeli citizen based on laws passed in the 70's, and hope to do so.
Israeli citizenship is a secular thing.
Don't merge the 2 into different perspectives/different "respects".
And don't look at kabbalah and halacha as "different perspectives".
Only once you have converted via orthodox halacha, is it known that you have and have had, a jewish soul. Ruth converted.
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As you can probably tell, I'm not the most religious of persons.
Most likely, I would take the secular approach with regards to becoming an Israeli citizen. Don't get me wrong, I find Judaism interesting, I even celebrate some of the holidays at my Uniiversity's Chabad house. However, I think there is a reason for the secularized version pertaining to citizenship.
There seems to be a complex both in Israel and on these boards of an "orthodox superiority." Don't get me wrong, when it comes to religion, none do it better than Orthodox Jews. However, ironically, many orthodox Jews vouch out of military service for religious reasons, while secular non-maternal "Jews" (halachaly non-Jews) serve in the armed forces. I ask you, who is better serving the state of Israel?
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As you can probably tell, I'm not the most religious of persons.
Most likely, I would take the secular approach with regards to becoming an Israeli citizen. Don't get me wrong, I find Judaism interesting, I even celebrate some of the holidays at my Uniiversity's Chabad house. However, I think there is a reason for the secularized version pertaining to citizenship.
There seems to be a complex both in Israel and on these boards of an "orthodox superiority." Don't get me wrong, when it comes to religion, none do it better than Orthodox Jews. However, ironically, many orthodox Jews vouch out of military service for religious reasons, while secular non-maternal "Jews" (halachaly non-Jews) serve in the armed forces. I ask you, who is better serving the state of Israel?
Your problem is here is labels.
the Orthodox that opt out are anti zionist.
I did see statistics that orthodox/religious zionists are disproportionately in the most important roles in the army.
Many seculars would opt out if they had an option.
When you refer to "the secularized version pertaining to citizenship", referring to the law of return no doubt. You obviously seem to think it is a good idea..
you are probably not aware of the basis to this rule.. Of anybody with a jewish grandfather is considered "jewish" by the secuilar state.
It is based on how Hitler would choose jews. If you are jewish enough for hitler, then you are jewish enough to live in the state of israel.
The israeli government are defining jews like hitler did. As if Hitler defines who is a jew, instead of jewish law.
If there was a state during the holocaust.. then those people could have been saved. But there was not. And if G-d forbid identical circumstances occurred again, but with a state, then Israel could pass a law to let people with a jewish grandparent in, if they must. Not calling them jews though. Calling them jews is letting a Hitler define who is a jew. And that is just wrong.
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One the same token though, isn't it wrong to not give protection to non-halacha Jews in lieu of the Nazi definition of who is a Jew conflicting with the Halacha's definition? Not saying that is the case, of course, modern Israel has modified the law to match this scenario. What I'm doing is putting it on the table that I feel that things changed after the Holocaust. In such an instance, I feel it would be better to be inclusive rather than exclusive...the Holocaust wiped out roughly half the world's Jewish population at the time, it may be in the interests of natural selection to reconsider archaic laws.
Put the ethos of the times of the talmud and the sages to the time after the Holocaust (everyone loves to appeal to past wisdom), one could surely argue there would be a rabbinical commentary regarding the changing of this law given the circumstances. And on that same token, commentaries arguing against.
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Khazan: "...I ask you, who is better serving the state of Israel?..."
I must ask you, "Who is it that recently conducted the worst pogroms against Jews seen since the days of the Third Reich?"
"Was it the religious?"...
"Or was it the 'secular non-religious' more than happy to follow orders and throw righteous and decent Jewish families off of their own land in Eretz Yisrael?"
As I recall, it was the Orthodox Jews who warned (correctly and truthfully) what would be the consequences to the Jewish People for such a heinous and cowardly act carried out on the orders of the traitor Sharon.
And now the missiles fall on Eretz Yisrael and the murderous terrorist Muslims maim and destroy Jews.
Our "marching orders" are clear: "Thou shalt not make any agreement with the inhabitants of the Land."
Without Torah, there is no Jewish People, and without the Land of Israel, the Jewish People are seen as "having no G-d" by non-Jews.
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As you can probably tell, I'm not the most religious of persons.
Most likely, I would take the secular approach with regards to becoming an Israeli citizen. Don't get me wrong, I find Judaism interesting, I even celebrate some of the holidays at my Uniiversity's Chabad house. However, I think there is a reason for the secularized version pertaining to citizenship.
There seems to be a complex both in Israel and on these boards of an "orthodox superiority." Don't get me wrong, when it comes to religion, none do it better than Orthodox Jews. However, ironically, many orthodox Jews vouch out of military service for religious reasons, while secular non-maternal "Jews" (halachaly non-Jews) serve in the armed forces. I ask you, who is better serving the state of Israel?
There are Orthodox Jews that are antizionist, and Orthodox Jews that are zionist (religious zionists). Religious zionists are currently the most patriotic group in Israel, the most serving and willing to serve in the military and overrepresented in the highly skilled units. You don't know much about Israel.
Also, many more charedim (most charedim are antizionist on a theological standpoint against the 'secular zionism movement' but obviously pro aliyah, pro self-defense and anti-surrender to arabs) would serve if there was a JEWISH army, but currently it just isn't one. And an IDF that sits back and allows Jews to be expelled from homes, you call this "serving the state" '?? I would never serve in an army that does that to the Jewish people. A Jewish army would serve Hashem and the Jewish people, not "the state."
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I don't know what you are getting at with those questions, Sharon did not pass such law "secularizing" those eligible for aliyah, that was done in the 60's or 70's.
About the pogroms, why, I'd have to say Arabs.
Again...two sides to every coin. Those same soldiers expelling Jews are also fighting invaders. I don't support expulsions, but it should be construed as a necessary evil. You have the ideal and the practical. Sure, ideally Olmert orders a helicopter to gun down the dome of the rock and al aqsa mosque so the temple can be built; practically that would infuriate 1 billion Muslims against a world of 13 million Jews, let alone the 5 million Jews in Israel.
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With God we are majority!Right? Yes!Numbers dont matter!
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" I don't support expulsions, but it should be construed as a necessary evil. "
A NECESSARY EVIL???? ARE YOU INSANE?? IT WAS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY, and YES IT WAS EVIL. It was evil to expel Jews from their own land for committing the "crime" of building homes and communities in it and being loyal to the government. How can a nation with the gall to call itself "Jewish" dare to commit POGROMS against JEWISH citizens and expel them? Anyone that would call that "necessary evil" would be LOVED by the antisemites and neonazis.
Your attempt to compare with the dome of the rock situation is completely unrelated and irrelevant to this discussion.
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One the same token though, isn't it wrong to not give protection to non-halacha Jews in lieu of the Nazi definition of who is a Jew conflicting with the Halacha's definition?<snip>
If you read what I wrote more carefully, you will see I actually anticipated that response.. And I said, said YES, I think they could save them too . BUT, don't call them jews.
(of course, the state of israel came in time to save the jews from arab lands - though the idea of a jewish state incited the arab barbarians enough to increase their persecution of jews and drive them out!)
there is no such thing as "non halachic jews". As you say, you defined them by the nazi definition of who is a jew. Admitting that is what you meant. That is more honest. But that is sick.
you want to talk about people who are "culturally jewish". Pathetic, but not so sick..
Stupid too. Eat a baigel - congratulations. Bring your non-jewish friend, he can be a cultural jew too. Then he can see for himself how "nothingy" it is!
Or, "ethnically jewish". Kind of offensive , potentially racist, trivial, petty, offensive to those that converted - they are just as jewish. Offensive to judaism to suggest being jewish is just an ethnicity.
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I think it is equally sick, if not more so, to be exclusive towards halacha non-Jews whom the Nazis considered Jews. Seriously, how do you think they feel? In your mind they're not Jews, but to the Nazis they were. Imagine one of them pleading, "I'm not really a Jew!" I can think of no worse fate, which is sadly the fate I am living. Too Jewish for the goyim, and a non-Jew for the Jews. Although the people on my birthright trip didn't seem to care, and the modern state of Israel has evolved its law regarding this.
If anything, the Jewish people or people who call themselves Jews, non halachaly or not, is essentially a clade, a group of people who have descended from a common ancestor--Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
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I think it is equally sick, if not more so, to be exclusive towards halacha non-Jews whom the Nazis considered Jews. Seriously, how do you think they feel? In your mind they're not Jews, but to the Nazis they were. Imagine one of them pleading, "I'm not really a Jew!" I can think of no worse fate, which is sadly the fate I am living. Too Jewish for the goyim, and a non-Jew for the Jews. Although the people on my birthright trip didn't seem to care, and the modern state of Israel has evolved its law regarding this.
If anything, the Jewish people or people who call themselves Jews, non halachaly or not, is essentially a clade, a group of people who have descended from a common ancestor--Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Why does it matter who the Nazis (yimach shemam) considered what? It is not haters of Jews that decide what our laws are. It is not antisemites that replace our Torah with their own opinions and racial fantasies such that we have to give them credibility.
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Such a damning argument. Yes, one could tell the SS officer he isn't really a Jew because his father, not his mother was Jewish. It's the torah were talking about here, G-d's law. You think that SS officer is going to give a [censored]?
It's not just "haters," most other people are not aware about the maternal bit, so for most people, having 1 Jewish parent, mother or father, that person considers the other a Jew.
Consider also the Torah was written over 5000 years ago. Do you belive the world was created in 7 days as the torah says, or that the world is much older given advances in science? Modern man did not descened from Adam and Eve as the Torah states, mitochondral DNA has traced all humans to a common ancestral mother living in Africa some 250,000 years ago.
The Torah is an awesome work, I love seeng one opened, such a beautiful thing. But modern science is also a beautiful thing, and so is adapting thought to modern times.
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I a Jew by birth[my mother]Am a Christian but a Jewish believer from his dads side desearves no protection?I know who I be , representing but we should not forget those who suffer for the sin of being a Jew yet we say they arent! ;)
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<snip>
The Torah is an awesome work, I love seeng one opened, such a beautiful thing. But modern science is also a beautiful thing, and so is adapting thought to modern times.
And herein lies what we are dealing with.
You appear on the surface to merely be illogical, not realising that nazis do not define judaism..
But here you admit, your belief that judaism is not divine( it just has some bits you happen to like). And you probably don't think any religion is divine/truth.
you have no respect for anybody that believes in their religion as truth
And you just Expect Jews to accept without question you demanding or pleading that they change jewish law according to your personal feelings.
You are basically a reformed socialist type in relation to religion... They have up given up trying to wipe out religion.. That wasn't working. So they found a better way. o They try to rubbish them all together, say nobody knows which one is true..
But then they often hide that fact too.. And without any respect, they just plead with the believer, that he abide by his personal feelings, making out that the believer is immoral.. And no amount of reason will change. because it is not about reason. You are a fraud. All liberals do that.
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any more
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any more
WHY are you people SO FORCEFUL? Its BAD enough coming from forceful indoctrinators of Catholicism, just to please PEOPLE.
YES, I am a JEWESS.
No, I have NOT been circumcised. :o
CLEARLY I TRY to have PATIENCE about this. I think I am way too touchy on this subject, maybe Im wrong, I dont know, I always see this as an attack, straight out against me, but I know its not, but at the same time, I think it is :'( IS there ANYONE else that has background in being Crypto? Maybe YOU can relate. I tell you, it really is TOUGH, having BOTH faiths in ones family, I belong NO-PLACE.
AND PLEASE, SPARE ME THE INQUISITION.
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Shalom,
Im a Jew and Im in the forum... Do I count?
muman613
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Shalom,
Im a Jew and Im in the forum... Do I count?
muman613
YES! You are the NICEST and MOST Holiest one on this WHOLE FORUM, PERIOD. TY for the Everynight Psalms, and the Torah Anytimes. O0 I LOVE YOU Muman. You make me feel more centered.
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any more
WHY are you people SO FORCEFUL? Its BAD enough coming from forceful indoctrinators of Catholicism, just to please PEOPLE.
YES, I am a JEWESS.
No, I have NOT been circumcised. :o
CLEARLY I TRY to have PATIENCE about this. I think I am way too touchy on this subject, maybe Im wrong, I dont know, I always see this as an attack, straight out against me, but I know its not, but at the same time, I think it is :'( IS there ANYONE else that has background in being Crypto? Maybe YOU can relate. I tell you, it really is TOUGH, having BOTH faiths in ones family, I belong NO-PLACE.
AND PLEASE, SPARE ME THE INQUISITION.
Paulette,
You are a wonderful person and a great contributor to this forum {IMO}. If you have a true desire to learn from Torah and live a life of mitzvahs you may be on your way to being a halachic Jew {given you convert fully}.
I like you regardless of your path in life...
muman613
PS: I am not familiar with the halachas concerning this matter. I think it would be best to consult with a Rabbi on this..
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Well, Muman- The way you ARE, anybody would WANT to become better, and work TOWARDS total and complete conversion.
However, I am a maverick, so, G-d will have to deal with this, should He require MORE of me. G-d KNOWS that I DO always seek to please Him. Mattor of FACT, REAL humility is doing what is RIGHT, and standing UP, vs false humility, as in humbling ones self to people..
If people here REALLY knew how I really am (which I am like a little girl in my heart and spirit) I think people would EAT MY LUNCHEON.
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Well, Muman- The way you ARE, anybody would WANT to become better, and work TOWARDS total and complete conversion.
However, I am a maverick, so, G-d will have to deal with this, should He require MORE of me. G-d KNOWS that I DO always seek to please Him. Mattor of FACT, REAL humility is doing what is RIGHT, and standing UP, vs false humility, as in humbling ones self to people..
If people here REALLY knew how I really am (which I am like a little girl in my heart and spirit) I think people would EAT MY LUNCHEON.
Believe me.. If I want food, the last thing on my mind is a little girl's lunch!
I just went to a (kosher) cafe - can't eat meat during the 9 days - I knew I had made a mistake when I saw that 70% of the people there were women! But I had no choice, elsewhere was closed. Food was aweful!
It took ages to get served too, the woman serving was too busy drawing flowers on my plate
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Well, Muman- The way you ARE, anybody would WANT to become better, and work TOWARDS total and complete conversion.
However, I am a maverick, so, G-d will have to deal with this, should He require MORE of me. G-d KNOWS that I DO always seek to please Him. Mattor of FACT, REAL humility is doing what is RIGHT, and standing UP, vs false humility, as in humbling ones self to people..
If people here REALLY knew how I really am (which I am like a little girl in my heart and spirit) I think people would EAT MY LUNCHEON.
Believe me.. If I want food, the last thing on my mind is a little girl's lunch!
I just went to a (kosher) cafe - can't eat meat during the 9 days - I knew I had made a mistake when I saw that 70% of the people there were women! But I had no choice, elsewhere was closed. Food was aweful!
It took ages to get served too, the woman serving was too busy drawing flowers on my plate
Q-Q!! DANG- I forgot, YOU TOO! You know I adore YOU q-q! You have CARED for MY soul & HEART! You would not EVER eat My lunch!
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Well, Muman- The way you ARE, anybody would WANT to become better, and work TOWARDS total and complete conversion.
However, I am a maverick, so, G-d will have to deal with this, should He require MORE of me. G-d KNOWS that I DO always seek to please Him. Mattor of FACT, REAL humility is doing what is RIGHT, and standing UP, vs false humility, as in humbling ones self to people..
If people here REALLY knew how I really am (which I am like a little girl in my heart and spirit) I think people would EAT MY LUNCHEON.
Believe me.. If I want food, the last thing on my mind is a little girl's lunch!
I just went to a (kosher) cafe - can't eat meat during the 9 days - I knew I had made a mistake when I saw that 70% of the people there were women! But I had no choice, elsewhere was closed. Food was aweful!
It took ages to get served too, the woman serving was too busy drawing flowers on my plate
Q-Q!! DANG- I forgot, YOU TOO! You know I adore YOU q-q! You have CARED for MY soul & HEART! You would not EVER eat My lunch!
Thanks,. By the way, I can't even eat my own lunch, if you'd seen my cooking you'd know why!
I must say, these cold baked beans are pretty good 'cos I haven't had baked beans for a few days!
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Well, Muman- The way you ARE, anybody would WANT to become better, and work TOWARDS total and complete conversion.
However, I am a maverick, so, G-d will have to deal with this, should He require MORE of me. G-d KNOWS that I DO always seek to please Him. Mattor of FACT, REAL humility is doing what is RIGHT, and standing UP, vs false humility, as in humbling ones self to people..
If people here REALLY knew how I really am (which I am like a little girl in my heart and spirit) I think people would EAT MY LUNCHEON.
Believe me.. If I want food, the last thing on my mind is a little girl's lunch!
I just went to a (kosher) cafe - can't eat meat during the 9 days - I knew I had made a mistake when I saw that 70% of the people there were women! But I had no choice, elsewhere was closed. Food was aweful!
It took ages to get served too, the woman serving was too busy drawing flowers on my plate
Q-Q!! DANG- I forgot, YOU TOO! You know I adore YOU q-q! You have CARED for MY soul & HEART! You would not EVER eat My lunch!
Thanks,. By the way, I can't even eat my own lunch, if you'd seen my cooking you'd know why!
I must say, these cold baked beans are pretty good 'cos I haven't had baked beans for a few days!
Hey q_q,
Watch out, haven't you heard about the Bushes Baked Beans conspiracy theory? The Bush family is up to their eyeballs in beans.. :)
Those are truly WMD...
muman613
:) :D
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Hey q_q,
Watch out, haven't you heard about the Bushes Baked Beans conspiracy theory? The Bush family is up to their eyeballs in beans.. :)
Those are truly WMD...
muman613
:) :D
As long as they're not pointing in my direction.
You should be worried though, they're nearer you than me !
But don't complain, because "he who smelt it, dealt it"