JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: The One and Only Mo on January 19, 2010, 02:36:58 AM
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
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Where can I watch those at? are they on youtube by any chance?
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Where can I watch those at? are they on youtube by any chance?
Yes but make sure it's loose change 2ND edition and NOT final cut....whatever you do. I repeat DO NOT watch the final cut of loose change. Make sure it's SECOND EDITION.
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/
It's easy to be brainwashed by one polemic without considering its flaws, lies, distortions, or even hearing the other side. So watch the videos on "screwloosechange" first, then get back to me.
Loose change is a shoddy, amateur, dishonest, non/unscientific so-called documentary film that is so strongly rooted in falsehood that even its maker admits that he made things up and can't prove the things he's claiming.
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Where can I watch those at? are they on youtube by any chance?
Yes but make sure it's loose change 2ND edition and NOT final cut....whatever you do. I repeat DO NOT watch the final cut of loose change. Make sure it's SECOND EDITION.
Why not? LOL. It's funny how 9/11 so-called "truth" needs 15 editions to get itself right. The truth is either true or false, it doesn't get amended. In any case, the makers obviously feel that "final cut" is more authoritative so why stop at 2nd edition? Their stupidity knows no bounds. All of their works are equally crappy.
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They have made too many mistakes already like cell phones can't work while a Jet is flying are they idiots,that Jet fuel can't bend Steele girders.They can't just retool their film every time they're caught lying
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With so many editions, the best conspiracy theory has to be the best bluff as well.
;D
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I know this much;
bush knew what was happening.
I know this also;
Terrorists that are MOSLEMS did it.
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Mo2388,
It was good knowing you, adios!
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/
It's easy to be brainwashed by one polemic without considering its flaws, lies, distortions, or even hearing the other side. So watch the videos on "screwloosechange" first, then get back to me.
Loose change is a shoddy, amateur, dishonest, non/unscientific so-called documentary film that is so strongly rooted in falsehood that even its maker admits that he made things up and can't prove the things he's claiming.
I am checking out this site. Unfortunately, the comments are mostly against the blog....but I'm reading it.
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/
It's easy to be brainwashed by one polemic without considering its flaws, lies, distortions, or even hearing the other side. So watch the videos on "screwloosechange" first, then get back to me.
Loose change is a shoddy, amateur, dishonest, non/unscientific so-called documentary film that is so strongly rooted in falsehood that even its maker admits that he made things up and can't prove the things he's claiming.
I am checking out this site. Unfortunately, the comments are mostly against the blog....but I'm reading it.
The important thing is the movie they made which goes through the loose change movie line by line and refutes it, points out inaccuracies, mistakes, and lies, and makes fun of it in a humorous way.
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what is that supposed to mean? he is leaving>?
Mo2388,
It was good knowing you, adios!
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
Your so sweet I love you too. Personally I think it was an inside job. ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u
^This Youtube channel does a good job of debunking some 9/11 conspiracy.
As far as which Muslims concocted this attack... the Saudis.
-GWB... secret Muslim? :::D I'll never know.
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
Your so sweet I love you too. Personally I think it was an inside job. ;D
Inside what? Do you think that the American government was behind it? I think not... I hope you don't buy that BS either... I would smack anyone who claims this if they said this in my presence. I have cut off people who even mention this idea...
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The 9/11 attack on America which occured on September 11th, 2001 was carried out by operatives of Al Queda who were funded by Saudi nationals. 15 of the hijackers were of Saudi origin while the others all subscribed to the Jihadist goals of Al Queda. Usama Bin Laden leads the Al Queda operation and was involved in planning the 9/11 attack. Through a network of sleeper cells in America the terrorists manuevered into place and boarded planes which were to be hijacked. They were able to board the flights using box-cutters which they used to threaten and bully the crews into entering the cockpits of these planes. These terrorists trained how to fly the jet airliners and were able to pilot them to their intended destinations. Two of the planes hit the World Trade Center, where my brother was working that morning... My brother perished in this attack... One plane was intended to take out the White house but this plane was prevented from hitting its target by passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit and kill the terrorists. A third plane was piloted to the Pentagon where it did a good amount of damage and killed several Pentagon workers but it did not completely destroy the pentagon.
The connections of the terrrorists is well established. The will of the terrorists is clearly to perpetrate Jihad against the west, as it has been doing for many years. Al Queda has been on the intelligence radar for almost 30 years and I believe it was involved with the Lebanon Marine barracks attack in the 1980s, the bombings of several African embassies, the 1st WTC bombing, the USS Cole attack, and many many other attacks against the west.
If a person denies this they are living in a fantasy world...
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Two of the planes hit the World Trade Center, where my brother was working that morning... My brother perished in this attack...
Oh man, I am sorry to hear this. I love my little brother so much, I wish there was some way I could share a bit of him with you.
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The 9/11 attack on America which occured on September 11th, 2001 was carried out by operatives of Al Queda who were funded by Saudi nationals. 15 of the hijackers were of Saudi origin while the others all subscribed to the Jihadist goals of Al Queda. Usama Bin Laden leads the Al Queda operation and was involved in planning the 9/11 attack. Through a network of sleeper cells in America the terrorists manuevered into place and boarded planes which were to be hijacked. They were able to board the flights using box-cutters which they used to threaten and bully the crews into entering the cockpits of these planes. These terrorists trained how to fly the jet airliners and were able to pilot them to their intended destinations. Two of the planes hit the World Trade Center, where my brother was working that morning... My brother perished in this attack... One plane was intended to take out the White house but this plane was prevented from hitting its target by passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit and kill the terrorists. A third plane was piloted to the Pentagon where it did a good amount of damage and killed several Pentagon workers but it did not completely destroy the pentagon.
The connections of the terrrorists is well established. The will of the terrorists is clearly to perpetrate Jihad against the west, as it has been doing for many years. Al Queda has been on the intelligence radar for almost 30 years and I believe it was involved with the Lebanon Marine barracks attack in the 1980s, the bombings of several African embassies, the 1st WTC bombing, the USS Cole attack, and many many other attacks against the west.
If a person denies this they are living in a fantasy world...
I think they threatened the passengers with fake bombs and other weapons. There are two main things that puzzle me: How they found Muhammad Atta's (ys'v) passport amongst the rubble of ground zero, almost fully intact, and the phone call of Mark Bingham where he allegedly calls his mom and says, "Hello mom, this is Mark Bingham. You believe me don't you?"
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
Your so sweet I love you too. Personally I think it was an inside job. ;D
Inside what? Do you think that the American government was behind it? I think not... I hope you don't buy that BS either... I would smack anyone who claims this if they said this in my presence. I have cut off people who even mention this idea...
I'm entitled to my opinion as you are, sorry for your brother but who was waiting with a jet to whisk them away- Bush and if you think the American government is for you then your in for a rude awaking! Can you explain Ariel Shayn video on the building not up to code or http://www.metacafe.com/watch/310074/twin_towers_burning_on_20_dollar_bill/
To have anger is one thing but to logged it against me because I don't agree with you is crazy.
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
Your so sweet I love you too. Personally I think it was an inside job. ;D
Inside what? Do you think that the American government was behind it? I think not... I hope you don't buy that BS either... I would smack anyone who claims this if they said this in my presence. I have cut off people who even mention this idea...
I'm entitled to my opinion as you are, sorry for your brother but who was waiting with a jet to wisk them away- Bush and if you think the American government is for you then your in for a rude awaking! Can you explain Ariel Shayn video on the building not up to code or http://www.metacafe.com/watch/310074/twin_towers_burning_on_20_dollar_bill/
To have anger is one thing but to logged it against me because I don't agree with you is crazy.
I don't think Bush was in charge of the debris. I think it was Giuliani.
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I doubt whether it was an inside job. However, for clarification, I wish more was made of Donald Rumstead's off-hand remark that one plane was shot down, which seems sort of logical.
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I want to here hear everyone's explanation about building number 7.
It fell to the ground, mysteriously.
Did the terrorists do that too?
http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/2/43F54hR0NW8
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6fe9YlHQwA
^ "9/11 Truthers" exposed.
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The 9/11 attack on America which occured on September 11th, 2001 was carried out by operatives of Al Queda who were funded by Saudi nationals. 15 of the hijackers were of Saudi origin while the others all subscribed to the Jihadist goals of Al Queda. Usama Bin Laden leads the Al Queda operation and was involved in planning the 9/11 attack. Through a network of sleeper cells in America the terrorists manuevered into place and boarded planes which were to be hijacked. They were able to board the flights using box-cutters which they used to threaten and bully the crews into entering the cockpits of these planes. These terrorists trained how to fly the jet airliners and were able to pilot them to their intended destinations. Two of the planes hit the World Trade Center, where my brother was working that morning... My brother perished in this attack... One plane was intended to take out the White house but this plane was prevented from hitting its target by passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit and kill the terrorists. A third plane was piloted to the Pentagon where it did a good amount of damage and killed several Pentagon workers but it did not completely destroy the pentagon.
The connections of the terrrorists is well established. The will of the terrorists is clearly to perpetrate Jihad against the west, as it has been doing for many years. Al Queda has been on the intelligence radar for almost 30 years and I believe it was involved with the Lebanon Marine barracks attack in the 1980s, the bombings of several African embassies, the 1st WTC bombing, the USS Cole attack, and many many other attacks against the west.
If a person denies this they are living in a fantasy world...
I think they threatened the passengers with fake bombs and other weapons. There are two main things that puzzle me: How they found Muhammad Atta's (ys'v) passport amongst the rubble of ground zero, almost fully intact, and the phone call of Mark Bingham where he allegedly calls his mom and says, "Hello mom, this is Mark Bingham. You believe me don't you?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z96MZOZyilo
I am not sure if "Mark Bingham" is addressed by this video, but it does explain a lot of the cell phone conspiracy.
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I want to here hear everyone's explanation about building number 7.
It fell to the ground, mysteriously.
Did the terrorists do that too?
http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/2/43F54hR0NW8
Interesting site. Thanks.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsUYhrXonXQ
^Zero signs of controlled demolition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLShZOvxVe4
^Buildings did not fall at freefall speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tacYjsS-g6k
^Controlled demolition not possible.
-The entire playlist is worth watching.
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I want to here hear everyone's explanation about building number 7.
It fell to the ground, mysteriously.
Did the terrorists do that too?
http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/2/43F54hR0NW8
Happy to oblige! Let us know what you think?
Interesting site. Thanks.
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The 9/11 attack on America which occured on September 11th, 2001 was carried out by operatives of Al Queda who were funded by Saudi nationals. 15 of the hijackers were of Saudi origin while the others all subscribed to the Jihadist goals of Al Queda. Usama Bin Laden leads the Al Queda operation and was involved in planning the 9/11 attack. Through a network of sleeper cells in America the terrorists manuevered into place and boarded planes which were to be hijacked. They were able to board the flights using box-cutters which they used to threaten and bully the crews into entering the cockpits of these planes. These terrorists trained how to fly the jet airliners and were able to pilot them to their intended destinations. Two of the planes hit the World Trade Center, where my brother was working that morning... My brother perished in this attack... One plane was intended to take out the White house but this plane was prevented from hitting its target by passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit and kill the terrorists. A third plane was piloted to the Pentagon where it did a good amount of damage and killed several Pentagon workers but it did not completely destroy the pentagon.
The connections of the terrrorists is well established. The will of the terrorists is clearly to perpetrate Jihad against the west, as it has been doing for many years. Al Queda has been on the intelligence radar for almost 30 years and I believe it was involved with the Lebanon Marine barracks attack in the 1980s, the bombings of several African embassies, the 1st WTC bombing, the USS Cole attack, and many many other attacks against the west.
If a person denies this they are living in a fantasy world...
I think they threatened the passengers with fake bombs and other weapons. There are two main things that puzzle me: How they found Muhammad Atta's (ys'v) passport amongst the rubble of ground zero, almost fully intact, and the phone call of Mark Bingham where he allegedly calls his mom and says, "Hello mom, this is Mark Bingham. You believe me don't you?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z96MZOZyilo
I am not sure if "Mark Bingham" is addressed by this video, but it does explain a lot of the cell phone conspiracy.
It did address the Mark Bingham thing.
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That's good stuff Ariel, exactly what I was looking for. However, why has the government not answered these questions? Basically, it's just one word against the other here, and my knowledge of science is not good enough to worry about controlled demolitions or melting steel, cordite, thermite, or any other chemical reaction. The other thing that bothers me is how not even one plane was traced by a fighter jet.
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I didn't want this to be one those topics that just dies. Either everybody here is in agreement one way or the other, or people just don't even want to bother. I am just looking for a general consensus, and people just don't want to give their two cents. I want to know where you guys get your information and how exactly one would debunk these conspiracies. I don't believe in them, I am just looking to prove them wrong, but I don't know how. The government has barely made an attempt and I think that they could put everybody's worries to sleep by just answering some questions.
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We all know what Islam is and what Islam does. Muslims were responsible for this terrorism.
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We all know what Islam is and what Islam does. Muslims were responsible for this terrorism.
I agree. I hate Muslims and Shitslam more than the next guy, but there are just some fishy things that can't all be explained by those 19 guys. Before 9/11, when I was 13, I also hated Islam (growing up during the inifada ain't easy). All I'm saying is that the government has a lot of unanswered questions to answer.
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We all know what Islam is and what Islam does. Muslims were responsible for this terrorism.
I agree. I hate Muslims and Shitslam more than the next guy, but there are just some fishy things that can't all be explained by those 19 guys. Before 9/11, when I was 13, I also hated Islam (growing up during the inifada ain't easy). All I'm saying is that the government has a lot of unanswered questions to answer.
They failed in their measures to protect Americans. What do you expect? Government is not good at much of anything, especially when different agencies did not communicate effectively with one another. This doesn't mean there was some malicious conspiracy or collaboration with the terrorists. It just means the terrorists had a highly sophisticated operation in mind and the inept government was unable to stop them.
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We all know what Islam is and what Islam does. Muslims were responsible for this terrorism.
I agree. I hate Muslims and Shitslam more than the next guy, but there are just some fishy things that can't all be explained by those 19 guys. Before 9/11, when I was 13, I also hated Islam (growing up during the inifada ain't easy). All I'm saying is that the government has a lot of unanswered questions to answer.
They failed in their measures to protect Americans. What do you expect? Government is not good at much of anything, especially when different agencies did not communicate effectively with one another. This doesn't mean there was some malicious conspiracy or collaboration with the terrorists. It just means the terrorists had a highly sophisticated operation in mind and the inept government was unable to stop them.
Well said.
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I didn't want this to be one those topics that just dies. Either everybody here is in agreement one way or the other, or people just don't even want to bother. I am just looking for a general consensus, and people just don't want to give their two cents. I want to know where you guys get your information and how exactly one would debunk these conspiracies. I don't believe in them, I am just looking to prove them wrong, but I don't know how. The government has barely made an attempt and I think that they could put everybody's worries to sleep by just answering some questions.
Sigh.
Unfortunately, this nonsense won't die.
Even mostly sensible people on this forum subscribe to, or give credence to, some of the most ludicrous and absurd conspiracy theories regarding 9/11.
Controlled demolition. Cell phone calls. Building 7. Blah, blah, blah.
This crap (and that's what it is) has been debunked ad infinitum. And it still won't go away. Probably never will.
Sad. Very sad.
The truth is, when one attempts to micro-analyze any event there will always be imponderables and unexplainable minutiae.
They ask 'How was a passport found'?, as if the discovery of a passport is some sinister evidence of a vast conspiracy to frame innocent moozies.
Well, common sense tells me if they can find an astronaut's diary that survived the return to earth from a disintigrated space shuttle, that finding a passport isn't even remarkable - let alone evidence of a conspiracy.
Who benefits by promulgating absurdities and lies regarding the tragic events of 9/11 ?
Certainly creeps and greedy money hungry ghouls like the makers of 'Loose Change' do. They line their pockets with gold, oblivious and uncaring about the pain and suffering they cause to the families of the victims of 9/11, through their rumor mongering, distortions of truth and outright lies. They're despicable parasites.
And of course, there's another group that benefits from the 'conspiracy theorists' and the credence given to 9/11 'truthers'. That would be the Moozies and their Islamist supporters and friends.
Taqiyya at it's best (or worst, depending upon one's point of view).
One other factor to note, regarding the type of people that constitute the so-called 9/11 'truthers'....
The vast majority of them are anti-Semitic, Jew hating scumbags and supporters of Ron Paul.
Keep that in mind before you join their ranks. Be careful of the company you keep.
Screw the 9/11 'truthers'. Death to all jihadists. May the blood of the victims of 9/11 be avenged.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/search/16/Zs5jWvu4tR8
^Information about the people who put, "Loose Change", together. 3 laughable goons who should never have been taken seriously [SO much worse than the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth"].
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The only parts I am still curious about are, how much influence does GWB friendship w/ the Saudis hurt FBI/CIA investigations of those close to the Saudis?
Well - clearly after Chaim's videos on the Saudi financing of 9/11 add fuel to that fire.
I have seen everything debunk except the BushCo. personal friendship status that involves kissing publicly. I am not suggesting anything as outrageous as Bush "let it happen", but he did let many Saudis leave the country who our law enforcement wanted to question. immediately after 9/11 during the "no fly" time. THAT was inappropriate [but legally accepted somehow].
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My thoughts on 9/11 is the emphasis must be on what Muslims are commanded to do in their religion. Granted, the United States Government missed warning signs and especially under Bill Clinton set the type of climate for 9/11 to become a reality. Yet, nothing should remotely overshadow that it was individuals and some governments ( with Saudi Arabia at the top of the list ) representing Islam that were directly responsible for over 3000 innocent lives being lost.
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eb22, well stated.
Has anyone here ever heard of this, "Alex Jones", fellow? He is a conspiracy kook. I have found him looking foolish yet once again, screaming in public like a [censored].
http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/27/sh8hErn2UZU
I wish I bookmarked the video I watched where Ron Paul disowned him publicly. - Cast aside by his hero on public television... that one has got to sting the old boy rather fiercely I reckon.
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eb22, well stated.
Has anyone here ever heard of this, "Alex Jones", fellow? He is a conspiracy kook. I have found him looking foolish yet once again, screaming in public like a moron.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/27/sh8hErn2UZU
I wish I bookmarked the video I watched where Ron Paul disowned him publicly. - Cast aside by his hero on public television... that one has got to sting the old boy rather fiercely I reckon.
Thanks, Ariel Shayn.
Regarding Alex Jones, if you get a chance go to the JTF Archives site that WestCoastJTF put together:
http://www.jtfarchive.org/index.pl
Then download the program called:
2007-06-27, show c
At around the 34 minute mark of the program, a question was asked regarding Alex Jones. Chaim's response justifiably condemning Alex Jones is well worth hearing.
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בס"ד
Once again everything goes to hell when I'm not here. People watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU&feature=related
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eb22, well stated.
Has anyone here ever heard of this, "Alex Jones", fellow? He is a conspiracy kook. I have found him looking foolish yet once again, screaming in public like a moron.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/27/sh8hErn2UZU
I wish I bookmarked the video I watched where Ron Paul disowned him publicly. - Cast aside by his hero on public television... that one has got to sting the old boy rather fiercely I reckon.
Thanks, Ariel Shayn.
Regarding Alex Jones, if you get a chance go to the JTF Archives site that WestCoastJTF put together:
http://www.jtfarchive.org/index.pl
Then download the program called:
2007-06-27, show c
At around the 34 minute mark of the program, a question was asked regarding Alex Jones. Chaim's response justifiably condemning Alex Jones is well worth hearing.
Wow, great! Listening right now. I'll wait and listen to the whole thing, I was looking for something to listen to... just finished some Hebrew lessons, so now... a treat for the Patriot spirit!
EDIT: Just got to the part where Chaim spoke on Alex Jones... "Hitler may have once stated 'the sun is shining'"... classic. and apt. :::D
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The 9/11 attack on America which occured on September 11th, 2001 was carried out by operatives of Al Queda who were funded by Saudi nationals. 15 of the hijackers were of Saudi origin while the others all subscribed to the Jihadist goals of Al Queda. Usama Bin Laden leads the Al Queda operation and was involved in planning the 9/11 attack. Through a network of sleeper cells in America the terrorists manuevered into place and boarded planes which were to be hijacked. They were able to board the flights using box-cutters which they used to threaten and bully the crews into entering the cockpits of these planes. These terrorists trained how to fly the jet airliners and were able to pilot them to their intended destinations. Two of the planes hit the World Trade Center, where my brother was working that morning... My brother perished in this attack... One plane was intended to take out the White house but this plane was prevented from hitting its target by passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit and kill the terrorists. A third plane was piloted to the Pentagon where it did a good amount of damage and killed several Pentagon workers but it did not completely destroy the pentagon.
The connections of the terrrorists is well established. The will of the terrorists is clearly to perpetrate Jihad against the west, as it has been doing for many years. Al Queda has been on the intelligence radar for almost 30 years and I believe it was involved with the Lebanon Marine barracks attack in the 1980s, the bombings of several African embassies, the 1st WTC bombing, the USS Cole attack, and many many other attacks against the west.
If a person denies this they are living in a fantasy world...
I think they threatened the passengers with fake bombs and other weapons. There are two main things that puzzle me: How they found Muhammad Atta's (ys'v) passport amongst the rubble of ground zero, almost fully intact,
If you had seen the rubble you would know that many piles and piles of objects, papers, parts of objects, parts of papers, metal scraps, large pieces of support columns etc etc were piled on top of each other. While there was a massive explosion in the initial crash into the building, it was not as if every last bit of matter got incinerated by the fireball, which is unrealistic and cartoonish to think so. But it was not Muhammad Atta's passport that was found. That was a mistaken report. It was another hijacker's. And in the rubble of other crashes, a few other passports of hijackers were found (and I'm sure they found those of passengers as well, along with other belongings and/or pieces of belongings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satam_al-Suqami
Al-Suqami's passport was found by a passerby, reportedly in the vicinity of Vesey Street,[7] before the towers collapsed.[8] (This was mistakenly reported by many news outlets to be Mohammed Atta's passport.) A columnist for the British newspaper The Guardian expressed incredulity about the authenticity of this report,[9] questioning whether a paper passport could survive the inferno unsinged when the plane's black boxes were never found. According to testimony before the 9/11 Commission by lead counsel Susan Ginsburg, his passport had been "manipulated in a fraudulent manner in ways that have been associated with al Qaeda."[8]
Passports belonging to Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al Ghamdi were found at the crash site of United Airlines flight #93 as well as an airphone.[10]
So, you would think it wouldn't happen, yet, it did. That's the reality of a completely unprecedented scenario occurring. Things that you never imagined or considered possible or thought about, you find out if they happen or not in this situation that never occurred before in history. And so we see that a passport can be found in the wreckage of a massive crash site and collapsed building rubble. And maybe the manipulation of the passport has something to do with it, maybe not, I'm only speculating.
But clearly they found it BEFORE the buildings collapsed, which means it flew out with the impact of the plane. Massive plane parts were also found lying in the street, and one of them looked like it was the fuselage actually. There is video of a policeman blocking off this fuselage that is roped off while passersby are walking around all over the place and looking at it on the ground. With the initial impact many things went flying. Consider the amount of pressure and the force of the explosion at its origin pushing the air outward before the fire spreads into a fireball. It is not instantaneous complete incineration.
If you want to know about Mohammad atta beyond basic soundbites or conspiracy theories, see here:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Mohamed_Atta
This will tell you the lengths of deception he went at to sneak into countries and hide his terrorist activity.... Trademark al qaeda techniques, as taught to the originally by the cia.
and the phone call of Mark Bingham where he allegedly calls his mom and says, "Hello mom, this is Mark Bingham. You believe me don't you?"
Shtuyot. His mother said that he had done that before calling himself by his full name when he called her up.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/mom-this-is-mark-bingham.html
I also thought I had heard her say he was kind of a joker and liked to kid around also, but I don't remember. I saw her being interviewed in a video clip a very long time ago. In any case, this whole argument is stupid. They have to grasp at every impossible unlikely unsupported claim to try to refute what happened. They want to pretend that ALL the calls made to ALL those family members, where ALL of them were convinced it was really their relative, were ALL FAKED and ALL using fake voice technology, IN REAL TIME, and that the US govt somehow kidnapped these people beforehand to get their voice recordings or at least voice patterns, then murdered them on these flights, etc etc..... So incredibly stupid. The calls were real. Even if you are surprised by what was said by one or two of them, or why a certain person chose to focus on this particular thing or that particular thing, or why he said this or said that, the calls were still real.
Consider if you were in Mark Bingham's situation. You are basically paying your last respects before your own death. Would you be calm and collected and know exactly what to say and sound completely normal? Would you not be a bit distressed at what is happening around you? The people on Bingham's flight KNEW that two other planes had been crashed into the twin towers that morning, and they knew where their own was headed. They also knew that in storming the cockpit, the plane might go down in a fury. They were preparing for all of this, panic was all around them, and everyone knew they basically had to say their goodbyes to loved ones. How "normal" do you expect such a phone call to be? This entire discussion about the phone calls from the planes is just beyond stupidity.
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Its painfully obvious. 9-11 was causesd by the same group of muslims who murdered kahane.
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Its painfully obvious. 9-11 was causesd by the same group of muslims who murdered Rav kahane.
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If you want to know about Mohammad atta beyond basic soundbites or conspiracy theories, see here:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Mohamed_Atta
And so you see, quite quickly, that it wasn't just some stam arab muslim guy with an arab name that they found to pin it on. He clearly was a terrorist engaging in terrorist activity and fraud to hide his activities from the authorities.
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That's good stuff Ariel, exactly what I was looking for. However, why has the government not answered these questions? Basically, it's just one word against the other here, and my knowledge of science is not good enough to worry about controlled demolitions or melting steel, cordite, thermite, or any other chemical reaction. The other thing that bothers me is how not even one plane was traced by a fighter jet.
Why would any of the planes be "traced" by fighter jets? Stop thinking about it with a post 9/11 mentality. Nothing like this had ever happened before so, pre 9/11, if controllers lose voice communication or detailed radar return information with an airliner they do not contact the military who immediately dispatches fighter jets to the location of the current radar return. Much like the reason four airliners were able to be taken over with box cutters. Procedures for crew during a potential hijacking prior to 9/11 were to cooperate with the hijackers and ensure the safety of the aircraft and passengers.
As for flight 93 which crashed in Pennsylvania, in my opinion it is very possible that it was shot down by U.S. fighter jets. I can see, after what had happened at the WTC and Pentagon, how the government might prefer that the public think it was a heroic act of the passengers that thwarted a fourth attack vs an order by the president to shoot down a civilian airliner. I'm not saying that this is what happened nor do I have any proof, just that it is feasible that this could have happened.
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I'm entitled to my opinion as you are, sorry for your brother but who was waiting with a jet to whisk them away- Bush and if you think the American government is for you then your in for a rude awaking! Can you explain Ariel Shayn video on the building not up to code or http://www.metacafe.com/watch/310074/twin_towers_burning_on_20_dollar_bill/
To have anger is one thing but to logged it against me because I don't agree with you is crazy.
Pennyjangle HOW DARE YOU speak about crazy? LOL. Who are you to judge what is crazy and what isn't when you are in complete denial of the facts of what happened.
"who was waiting with a jet to whisk them away- Bush " Whisk WHOM away? You cannot just mumble incoherent babbling and expect us to 'respect' such stupidity as if its a valid response. It isn't. You claim it's a massive conspiracy theory that required compliance of up to and including: NYC Firefighters, NYFD commisioner, NYPD commissioner, NYPD police officers, several Airline companies, flight attendants, pilots, engineers who analyzed the rubble and the aftermath and the destruction, scientists of many types involved in determining what happened, cia and fbi supposedly involved in planting bombs or doing whatever other covert activities to make this happen, all the airline passengers who made "phony" calls home to relatives, all the terrorists on board these planes who had actually made jihadist videos, spent time in terrorist training camps, got flight training in registered schools etc etc, newscrews, news stations, cameramen, reporters, radio announcers, eyewitnesses ALL these people were involved in the biggest act of "treason" ever committed probably by any country against itself according to your conspiracy theory and NOT ONE person involved has felt bad and spoken out about it. NOT ONE person has come forward and exposed the evil. LOL! This is a joke. A conspiracy cannot involve thousands of people and expect that no one will be a whistleblower. A conspiracy that involves an incredible amount of evil and suffering inflicted on innocent people cannot possibly expect 1000's let alone 100's of people to ALL keep quiet about it. And you have the nerve to talk about who is or isn't crazy when you believe this complete and utter nonsense?
There was not a conspiracy. The earth is round. The sun is hot. Muslim terrorists committed the 9/11 in the name of Islam-mandated jihad.
If you want to believe in complete and utter nonsense, keep your ridiculous ideas to yourself unless you expect to be and are ok with being flamed, utterly refuted by facts and logic, and ridiculed. It has no place on this forum as these irrational beliefs have been discredited already time after time after time, elsewhere.
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I want to here hear everyone's explanation about building number 7.
It fell to the ground, mysteriously.
Did the terrorists do that too?
It wasn't a mystery to the firefighters who were THERE, on the scene, fighting the fire that existed in that building. That fire coincided with structural damage, when it was hit by debris from the other building world trade center building. You can look at pictures with your own eyes and see the side of the building blown into. The firefighters knew the building was going to fall and it was useless to keep fighting the fire since all the people inside had gotten out already, and it would put the in danger to fight it since they knew it was going to fall any minute. That is why they pulled back the men and let it fall. Thankfully this decision saved the lives of firefighters who might have otherwise been hurt by the fall of building 7.
Why not consider what the people who were actually there saw? Why not hear what the firefighters say about the fire that they fought? Why waste time in silly pointless conjecture?
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That's good stuff Ariel, exactly what I was looking for. However, why has the government not answered these questions?
1. Because these questions are stupid. They are invented by people with an agenda to have you doubt what actually happened. Why? Because they want to shift the blame. Why should the govt address lies and baseless speculation? That gives credence to something that is off the map in la-la land. That would be like the govt addressing the question of why the moon is not made of green cheese. What business do they have explaining that?
2. Some of the better, Actual questions that can be asked have indeed been answered by the govt's extensive report known as the 9/11 commission. Often times in these amateur idiotic videos, the conspiracy theorists pretend as if the report never came out, and they tell you the questions have not been answered, when in fact they have been answered already. They are purposely deceiving you. Are you not insulted by that? I certainly am.
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I didn't want this to be one those topics that just dies. Either everybody here is in agreement one way or the other, or people just don't even want to bother. I am just looking for a general consensus, and people just don't want to give their two cents. I want to know where you guys get your information and how exactly one would debunk these conspiracies. I don't believe in them, I am just looking to prove them wrong, but I don't know how. The government has barely made an attempt and I think that they could put everybody's worries to sleep by just answering some questions.
Sigh.
Unfortunately, this nonsense won't die.
Even mostly sensible people on this forum subscribe to, or give credence to, some of the most ludicrous and absurd conspiracy theories regarding 9/11.
Controlled demolition. Cell phone calls. Building 7. Blah, blah, blah.
This crap (and that's what it is) has been debunked ad infinitum. And it still won't go away. Probably never will.
Sad. Very sad.
The truth is, when one attempts to micro-analyze any event there will always be imponderables and unexplainable minutiae.
They ask 'How was a passport found'?, as if the discovery of a passport is some sinister evidence of a vast conspiracy to frame innocent moozies.
Well, common sense tells me if they can find an astronaut's diary that survived the return to earth from a disintigrated space shuttle, that finding a passport isn't even remarkable - let alone evidence of a conspiracy.
Who benefits by promulgating absurdities and lies regarding the tragic events of 9/11 ?
Certainly creeps and greedy money hungry ghouls like the makers of 'Loose Change' do. They line their pockets with gold, oblivious and uncaring about the pain and suffering they cause to the families of the victims of 9/11, through their rumor mongering, distortions of truth and outright lies. They're despicable parasites.
And of course, there's another group that benefits from the 'conspiracy theorists' and the credence given to 9/11 'truthers'. That would be the Moozies and their Islamist supporters and friends.
Taqiyya at it's best (or worst, depending upon one's point of view).
One other factor to note, regarding the type of people that constitute the so-called 9/11 'truthers'....
The vast majority of them are anti-Semitic, Jew hating scumbags and supporters of Ron Paul.
Keep that in mind before you join their ranks. Be careful of the company you keep.
Screw the 9/11 'truthers'. Death to all jihadists. May the blood of the victims of 9/11 be avenged.
Muck, I quote this entire post when I tell you my response because what you said was so wise it deserves to be quoted in full even if it took up 20 pages (normally I snip quotes).
You have summed it all up precisely.
Screw the 9/11 truthers - they are scum, death to jihadists and may the blood of 9/11 victims be avenged. Here here.
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I'm entitled to my opinion as you are, sorry for your brother but who was waiting with a jet to whisk them away- Bush and if you think the American government is for you then your in for a rude awaking! Can you explain Ariel Shayn video on the building not up to code or http://www.metacafe.com/watch/310074/twin_towers_burning_on_20_dollar_bill/
To have anger is one thing but to logged it against me because I don't agree with you is crazy.
Pennyjangle HOW DARE YOU speak about crazy? LOL. Who are you to judge what is crazy and what isn't when you are in complete denial of the facts of what happened.
"who was waiting with a jet to whisk them away- Bush " Whisk WHOM away? You cannot just mumble incoherent babbling and expect us to 'respect' such stupidity as if its a valid response. It isn't. You claim it's a massive conspiracy theory that required compliance of up to and including: NYC Firefighters, NYFD commisioner, NYPD commissioner, NYPD police officers, several Airline companies, flight attendants, pilots, engineers who analyzed the rubble and the aftermath and the destruction, scientists of many types involved in determining what happened, cia and fbi supposedly involved in planting bombs or doing whatever other covert activities to make this happen, all the airline passengers who made "phony" calls home to relatives, all the terrorists on board these planes who had actually made jihadist videos, spent time in terrorist training camps, got flight training in registered schools etc etc, newscrews, news stations, cameramen, reporters, radio announcers, eyewitnesses ALL these people were involved in the biggest act of "treason" ever committed probably by any country against itself according to your conspiracy theory and NOT ONE person involved has felt bad and spoken out about it. NOT ONE person has come forward and exposed the evil. LOL! This is a joke. A conspiracy cannot involve thousands of people and expect that no one will be a whistleblower. A conspiracy that involves an incredible amount of evil and suffering inflicted on innocent people cannot possibly expect 1000's let alone 100's of people to ALL keep quiet about it. And you have the nerve to talk about who is or isn't crazy when you believe this complete and utter nonsense?
There was not a conspiracy. The earth is round. The sun is hot. Muslim terrorists committed the 9/11 in the name of Islam-mandated jihad.
If you want to believe in complete and utter nonsense, keep your ridiculous ideas to yourself unless you expect to be and are ok with being flamed, utterly refuted by facts and logic, and ridiculed. It has no place on this forum as these irrational beliefs have been discredited already time after time after time, elsewhere.
Dispute this before it disappears ....http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_carlyle.html
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Dispute this before it disappears ....http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_carlyle.html
Disappears? It says copywright 2001. So if the big bad boogeyman is going to make it disappear since it's so "dangerous" why have they waited 8+ years? "They" obviously don't care that it exists. Please think about things before you say them.
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Dispute this before it disappears ....http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_carlyle.html
The sections on Hitler y''s and Hussein y''s are completely irrelevant to a discussion about 9/11. That knocks out 2/3 of this as pointless to read, so why do you demand I waste my time with it? I know that elements in the American govt and the American people were nazi sympathizers. Henry Ford was a huge proponent of nazism and helped finance Hitler from what I read and he sort of idolized him. This has nothing to do with 9/11.
Hussein was considered an ally against Iran and other middle east forces by the US govt, then later he was determined to be an enemy as alliances shifted, allegiances changed, and Hussein's behavior precluded a continued relationship. What is the point of talking about this?
As to the section about the "carlyle group" - What is there to refute? Bush has business dealings with muslim arabian companies. He tries to get their investment $$$$. His family is wrapped up in it. So what? All politicians are opportunists and seek to cash in. That doesn't mean they would commit treason against their own country to do so. It doesn't mean they would murder thousands of Americans to do so. You are drawing an improper conclusion. I'm not even going to bother wasting my time reading the entire article. I skimmed it and basically it talks about Bush family business ventures. Big freaking deal.
There are about 50 siblings of the bin laden family, and osama is an outcast by being a terrorist and revolutionary. I don't know if it's great that bush family does business with bin laden family, but it has nothing to do with 9/11. Osama is clearly an enemy of the united states and Bush has stated that from the beginning. Does that mean any relative of his (there are probably hundreds since they interbreed) should also be an enemy of the US even if they are not involved in terrorism ? Silly.
You can't formulate actual arguments, you merely cite long novels that you expect me to read and to do the work for you. Either you have something to say or you don't. Either you can prove something by pointing to actual evidence or you cannot. Quoting a long article or diatribe does not count. Say something of content. Otherwise stop wasting our time.
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בס"ד
Once again everything goes to hell when I'm not here. People watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU&feature=related
What is this garbage, Ron? People making uninformed conjectures about what they THINK they are seeing does not make it what actually IS happening.
Simple question: If it was a demolition, then why did it take longer than free fall speed to for the buildings to fall? They clearly did not fall at freefall speed but hit resistance at each floor as the floors on top came pancaking down onto each successive floor. Demolitions are done at freefall speed. The explosives are placed inside the building so that the foundations are blown out simultaneously so that there is no resistance on the way down. It falls like if you dropped something in the air. This is called freefall. The only resistance would be air resistance. In the case of tons of metal and steal and concrete, as that which fell, air resistance would be negligible. It is very clear the buildings did NOT fall at free fall speed. One of them took at least 20 seconds to reach the bottom. That is proof that it was not a controlled demolition.
Peter Jennings reacted to what he saw and guessed at what happened. But the evidence requires us to analyze what actually did happen. No explosives planted. No freefall. Therefore, no demolition.
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http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=55723958
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http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=55723958
I don't have myspace. Again, don't just quote and cite random things and expect us to waste our time with it. If there is a point to be made, make a point. If you can't think for yourself then don't bother.
So sum up the video or else I will not waste my time and I suggest you stop propagandizing with this nonsense.
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The 9/11 attack on America which occured on September 11th, 2001 was carried out by operatives of Al Queda who were funded by Saudi nationals. 15 of the hijackers were of Saudi origin while the others all subscribed to the Jihadist goals of Al Queda. Usama Bin Laden leads the Al Queda operation and was involved in planning the 9/11 attack. Through a network of sleeper cells in America the terrorists manuevered into place and boarded planes which were to be hijacked. They were able to board the flights using box-cutters which they used to threaten and bully the crews into entering the cockpits of these planes. These terrorists trained how to fly the jet airliners and were able to pilot them to their intended destinations. Two of the planes hit the World Trade Center, where my brother was working that morning... My brother perished in this attack... One plane was intended to take out the White house but this plane was prevented from hitting its target by passengers who attempted to break into the cockpit and kill the terrorists. A third plane was piloted to the Pentagon where it did a good amount of damage and killed several Pentagon workers but it did not completely destroy the pentagon.
The connections of the terrrorists is well established. The will of the terrorists is clearly to perpetrate Jihad against the west, as it has been doing for many years. Al Queda has been on the intelligence radar for almost 30 years and I believe it was involved with the Lebanon Marine barracks attack in the 1980s, the bombings of several African embassies, the 1st WTC bombing, the USS Cole attack, and many many other attacks against the west.
If a person denies this they are living in a fantasy world...
Al Queda has been on the intelligence radar for almost 30 years and I believe it was involved with the Lebanon Marine barracks attack in the 1980s
HEZZBOLLAH
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It was an act of political terrorist jihad against the democracies for their so-called crime of providing so-called support to the Israel.
With this motive some of the conspiracy theories were to be born along with the criminal conspiracy itself and they were to be unleashed one after another immediately once the criminal act was committed. These theories had to be a soft propaganda material by sprinkling salt on the open wounds and it really worked to some extent only because under the given conditions, everyone can not be aware of the following:
** Variations in yield strength of metals at high temperatures.
** Center of gravity and Inertia of massive high rise towers.
** High kinetic energy and its vertical domino effects.
** The possibility of controlled demolition tends to be as low as 1/10000 when we see that both the towers are initially collapsing only from the floors which were directly hit and were burning most vigorously.
Sometimes the conspiracy theorists surprise me more than the conspirators themselves.
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It just amazes me the rumours and lies that are sread for whatever means.
The video footage of bush being told about the events show clearly he was visibly shaken by the news.
The other point i,d like to make is we have muslims in britain who believe there were no Jewish people in the twin towers because thats what their told to believe so they can blame Israel for the attack.
I believe muslims commited 9/11 under the orders of osama bin liner why,well there are many reasons.
Tell a lie often enough
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The other point i,d like to make is we have muslims in britain who believe there were no Jewish people in the twin towers because thats what their told to believe so they can blame Israel for the attack.
Indeed, that lie was actually invented by Hezbollah and was based on: You guessed it - nothing.
There were many Jews who lost their lives including our dear forum member Muman's brother, may his blood and their blood be avenged.
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The title of this thread asks for participation in a serious discussion about 9/11.
Well, I'm going to tell you that having a serious discussion about the events of 9/11 with the '9/11 truthers' is an IMPOSSIBILITY.
Here's why: They're too freaking STOOOOOOPID.
One would be better off trying to explain to a rabbit why we only see one side of the moon, than trying to have a rational conversation with a 'truther'.
Case in point: The moronic contention that the towers collapsed as a result of a controlled demolition or implosion.
Anyone with an iota of common sense would understand that massive amounts of explosives would have had to be brought into both towers, strategically placed, and then wired into a network. This would be a massive undertaking and absolutely impossible to conceal. (Not to mention the absolute impossibility of having the planes hit at exactly the same point that the explosives were placed in order to start the collapse.)
If you believe this happened and yet no one saw any evidence of this or caught the 'conspirators' doing their dirty work...YOU'RE A CERTIFIED MORON incapable of rational thought or serious conversation.
People, please THINK. Use the brains G-d gave you.
The idea of a controlled demolition is every bit as ridiculous as the assertion that no Jews perished at the WTC because they were warned in advance. Hopefully, no one here believes THAT. Yet there are 'truthers' that still maintain the veracity of this incredible lie even today.
"Hello Mr. Goldberg ? This is the Mossad calling, don't go to work at the WTC tomorrow. There's going to be a controlled demolition of both towers. We've spent weeks wiring the buildings with explosives and we've hypnotized a bunch of Moozies to hijack some jets and fly them into the towers to cover our nefarious plot. Brilliant plan, isn't it ? Anyway, I've got to go now, lots of other Jews to call and warn. Remember, take the day off tomorrow."
And I'm supposed to have a serious conversation with people that subscribe to, or even give the slightest credence, to this absolute nonsense that even a child could see through ?
Puhleeze.
I suppose I should also have a serious 9/11 conversation with the Moozies that celebrate the '19 glorious martyrs' of 9/11 one second, and then deny culpability the next.
Give me a break.
Sorry, it's not possible to have a serious conversation about 9/11 with these morons.
And I'm sorry to see that we have a few of these morons on this board.
Screw the 9/11 'truthers'. Death to all jihadists. May the blood of the victims of 9/11 be avenged.
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The other point i,d like to make is we have muslims in britain who believe there were no Jewish people in the twin towers because thats what their told to believe so they can blame Israel for the attack.
Indeed, that lie was actually invented by Hezbollah and was based on: You guessed it - nothing.
There were many Jews who lost their lives including our dear forum member Muman's brother, may his blood and their blood be avenged.
Thank you KWRBT.... Yes my brother was a Jew and he died in the towers... It bothers me to no end to hear this assertion...
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I am thinking since this thread just leads to people calling each other names and insulting each other, it should be removed.
but what do I know, I am just an ignorant moron with no brains.
Well, ~Kramer~, if you believe that the towers came down as a result of a controlled demolition, rather than the jets slamming into them and the ensuing inferno, then you are indeed a moron.
I've explained why.
If you have a serious rebuttal to the points I made explaining why a controlled demolition is a laughable absurdity and impossibility - then articulate it.
If you're incapable of articulating such a rebuttal and still cling to the ridiculous notion of a controlled implosion being responsible for the collapses - that further proves you're a moron.
So rather than removing the thread, tell this forum whether or not you believe in the 'controlled demoliton conspiracy' and why I shouldn't call you a moron if you do.
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I am sorry, but I don't wast my time interacting with someone who hurls insults and degrades people like you do here.
Have a great day.
I am thinking since this thread just leads to people calling each other names and insulting each other, it should be removed.
but what do I know, I am just an ignorant moron with no brains.
Well, ~Kramer~, if you believe that the towers came down as a result of a controlled demolition, rather than the jets slamming into them and the ensuing inferno, then you are indeed a moron.
I've explained why.
If you have a serious rebuttal to the points I made explaining why a controlled demolition is a laughable absurdity and impossibility - then articulate it.
If you're incapable of articulating such a rebuttal and still cling to the ridiculous notion of a controlled implosion being responsible for the collapses - that further proves you're a moron.
So rather than removing the thread, tell this forum whether or not you believe in the 'controlled demoliton conspiracy' and why I shouldn't call you a moron if you do.
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I have heard 1st hand stories of religious Jews who were not killed only because the morning of the 11th they were attending minyan for Shelichot, penitential prayers before the Rosh Hashana holiday. These Jews were miraculously saved from death only because they attended davening in the morning...
http://www.jewfaq.org/elul.htm
Selichot
As the month of Elul draws to a close, the mood of repentance becomes more urgent. Prayers for forgiveness called selichot (properly pronounced "s'lee-KHOHT," but often pronounced "SLI-khus") are added to the daily cycle of religious services. Selichot are recited in the early morning, before normal daily shacharit service. They add about 45 minutes to the regular daily service.
Selichot are recited from the Sunday before Rosh Hashanah until Yom Kippur. If Rosh Hashanah begins on a Monday or Tuesday, selichot begins on the Sunday of the week before Rosh Hashanah, to make sure that there are at least 3 days of Selichot. The first selichot service of the holiday season is usually a large community service, held around midnight on Motzaei Shabbat (the night after the sabbath ends; that is, after nightfall on Saturday) . The entire community, including men, women and older children, attend the service, and the rabbi gives a sermon. The remaining selichot services are normally only attended by those who ordinarily attend daily shacharit services in synagogue.
A fundamental part of the selichot service is the repeated recitation of the "Thirteen Attributes," a list of G-d's thirteen attributes of mercy that were revealed to Moses after the sin of the golden calf (Ex 34:6-7): Ha-shem [1], Ha-shem [2], G-d [3], merciful [4], and gracious [5], long-suffering [6], abundant in goodness [7] and truth [8], keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation [9], forgiving iniquity [10] and transgression [11] and sin [12], who cleanses [13]. Why is "Ha-shem" listed twice as an attribute? And why are three of these "attributes" Names of G-d? Different names of G-d connote different characteristics of G-d. The four-letter Name of G-d (rendered here as "Ha-shem") is the Name used when G-d is exhibiting characteristics of mercy, and the Talmud explains that this dual usage indicates that G-d is merciful before a person sins, but is also merciful after a person sins. The third attribute is a different Name of G-d that is used when G-d acts in His capacity as the almighty ruler of nature and the universe.
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I am sorry, but I don't wast my time interacting with someone who hurls insults and degrades people like you do here.
Have a great day.
Well, you got one thing right....
You are sorry.
And if you're a 'controlled demolition' conpiracy supporter, you're a sorry moron.
I don't say that to insult you, but it needs to be said.
The memory of the victims of 9/11 and a true account of how and why they died that day demands that you be told off.
If you can't handle that, too bad.
Have a nice day too.
Now run away.
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Kramer,
Say it aint so.... Tell us that you are not a 9/11 truther nutjob.... I really hope that you are just bluffing or acting because if you subscribe to such ideology I consider you my enemy...
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all I did was ask about building 7, that is all that I did.
thankyou.
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I am sorry, but I don't wast my time interacting with someone who hurls insults and degrades people like you do here.
Have a great day.
I'll consider that a surrender, as we all should.
Let's hope you've also dropped belief in the fairytale you were espousing.
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all I did was ask about building 7, that is all that I did.
thankyou.
Nope, you did more than that.
You suggested the thread be removed, and accused me of 'hurling insults' and 'degrading people' because I maintain that people that believe in a 'controlled demolition' are morons.
Furthermore, you said "but what do I know, I am just an ignorant moron with no brains", which would lead any reader of the thread to believe you support the controlled demolition explanation for why the towers collapsed.
If all you did was ask a question about building 7, and you don't believe in a controlled demolition conspiracy, then you had no reason to believe you were being insulted or called a moron.
You're being disingenous about this.
Kramer, you're a good guy and I have no reason to insult you personally.
However, I stand by what I said. People that believe that a conspiracy existed to bring the towers down by controlled implosion after the jets slammed into the WTC are CERTIFIED MORONS.
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בס"ד
Once again everything goes to hell when I'm not here. People watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU&feature=related
What a load of cr-p in more ways then one....
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I've put this off long enough. Has anybody watched "Loose Change second edition" or "9/11 coincidences"? I know this is a sensitive topic and a lot of you might hate me after this (if you already don't), but I want answers, and JTF is the ONLY thing I trust and you guys are like my family. Before anybody goes bonkers on me and calls me names and accuses me of being anti-American, a liberal, a nazi etc. Just know that I am ASKING in order to LEARN. I am not stating my opinion nor rattling off useless facts. I just want answers from the people I trust most in the world. So PLEASE keep the judgments, prejudices, and irrational thoughts to yourselves for the time being.
Your so sweet I love you too. Personally I think it was an inside job. ;D
Inside what? Do you think that the American government was behind it? I think not... I hope you don't buy that BS either... I would smack anyone who claims this if they said this in my presence. I have cut off people who even mention this idea...
Well said!!
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People are really crazy. An inside job... >:( Wish some of the nuts, who think that way, had experienced that day up close and personal.
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People are really crazy. An inside job... >:( Wish some of the nuts, who think that way, had experienced that day up close and personal.
Exactly ....Besides what do people think that a building like that can be brought down with a few sticks of dynamite? Buildings like that would require tons of explosives put just in the right place and the cement protecting the steel beams removed to accomplish something like that. The tons of jet fuel along with millions of tons of paper and things that burn softened the steel over the hour or so they were burning and allowed the building to collapse under its own weight. The secondary blasts were most likely from natural gas mains that were ruptured and the sound of the hundred or so floors pancaking on top of each other nothing more.
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The tsunami was also an inside job, and the proof is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-i0LhVEVs8
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I asked a simple question about a building.
If you feel the need to yell at me and degrade me for it, go right ahead.
If it makes you feel any better.
God bless you.
I am sorry, but I don't wast my time interacting with someone who hurls insults and degrades people like you do here.
Have a great day.
Well, you got one thing right....
You are sorry.
And if you're a 'controlled demolition' conpiracy supporter, you're a sorry moron.
I don't say that to insult you, but it needs to be said.
The memory of the victims of 9/11 and a true account of how and why they died that day demands that you be told off.
If you can't handle that, too bad.
Have a nice day too.
Now run away.
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They saw 3 of the planes trail off their course. It took time for the plane to travel to its final destination. Cheney was told how many miles away the plane was, he was being updated. This is Washington D.C. the most protected airspace in the world. That plane should have not gotten close to the Pentagon. And the plane that hit the second tower was being talked about over the radios. Any plan that is found over airspace that is protected or any plane that tails off course is tracked by the air force (and the like). I don't believe for one second that they couldn't shoot down at least one plane (particularly the Pentagon one).
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They saw 3 of the planes trail off their course. It took time for the plane to travel to its final destination. Cheney was told how many miles away the plane was, he was being updated. This is Washington D.C. the most protected airspace in the world. That plane should have not gotten close to the Pentagon. And the plane that hit the second tower was being talked about over the radios. Any plan that is found over airspace that is protected or any plane that tails off course is tracked by the air force (and the like). I don't believe for one second that they couldn't shoot down at least one plane (particularly the Pentagon one).
I believe it 100% that they couldn't shoot down the planes... The policies required to do so had not been implemented. There was a great disconnect between what was supposed to happen and what happened. In the September 10th world nobody would have dreamed that this kind of attack was possible. Truth is that some of the intelligence community knew that these kinds of attacks were planned but because nobody believed it could happen, nobody heeded the advice of this intelligence.
I do not believe for one second that an American president who is beholden to the American taxpayer would allow Americans to be killed on American soil. In order for a conspiracy to be succesfull requires many to be involved. There is no way that the American lives were sacrificed in order to create a 'holy war' as the conspiracy theorists assert. The Holy War of Jihad has been declared 30 years before the 9/11 attacks, if anyone is old enough to remember the 1980s Lebanon Marine barracks massacre.
The problem, as the 9/11 commission concluded, was poor communication between domestic and foreign intelligence agencies due to the Firewall between the CIA and the FBI created by the Clinton white house...
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They saw 3 of the planes trail off their course. It took time for the plane to travel to its final destination. Cheney was told how many miles away the plane was, he was being updated. This is Washington D.C. the most protected airspace in the world. That plane should have not gotten close to the Pentagon. And the plane that hit the second tower was being talked about over the radios. Any plan that is found over airspace that is protected or any plane that tails off course is tracked by the air force (and the like). I don't believe for one second that they couldn't shoot down at least one plane (particularly the Pentagon one).
I believe it 100% that they couldn't shoot down the planes... The policies required to do so had not been implemented. There was a great disconnect between what was supposed to happen and what happened. In the September 10th world nobody would have dreamed that this kind of attack was possible. Truth is that some of the intelligence community knew that these kinds of attacks were planned but because nobody believed it could happen, nobody heeded the advice of this intelligence.
I do not believe for one second that an American president who is beholden to the American taxpayer would allow Americans to be killed on American soil. In order for a conspiracy to be succesfull requires many to be involved. There is no way that the American lives were sacrificed in order to create a 'holy war' as the conspiracy theorists assert. The Holy War of Jihad has been declared 30 years before the 9/11 attacks, if anyone is old enough to remember the 1980s Lebanon Marine barracks massacre.
The problem, as the 9/11 commission concluded, was poor communication between domestic and foreign intelligence agencies due to the Firewall between the CIA and the FBI created by the Clinton white house...
Excellent post.
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They saw 3 of the planes trail off their course. It took time for the plane to travel to its final destination. Cheney was told how many miles away the plane was, he was being updated. This is Washington D.C. the most protected airspace in the world. That plane should have not gotten close to the Pentagon. And the plane that hit the second tower was being talked about over the radios. Any plan that is found over airspace that is protected or any plane that tails off course is tracked by the air force (and the like). I don't believe for one second that they couldn't shoot down at least one plane (particularly the Pentagon one).
I believe it 100% that they couldn't shoot down the planes... The policies required to do so had not been implemented. There was a great disconnect between what was supposed to happen and what happened. In the September 10th world nobody would have dreamed that this kind of attack was possible. Truth is that some of the intelligence community knew that these kinds of attacks were planned but because nobody believed it could happen, nobody heeded the advice of this intelligence.
I do not believe for one second that an American president who is beholden to the American taxpayer would allow Americans to be killed on American soil. In order for a conspiracy to be succesfull requires many to be involved. There is no way that the American lives were sacrificed in order to create a 'holy war' as the conspiracy theorists assert. The Holy War of Jihad has been declared 30 years before the 9/11 attacks, if anyone is old enough to remember the 1980s Lebanon Marine barracks massacre.
The problem, as the 9/11 commission concluded, was poor communication between domestic and foreign intelligence agencies due to the Firewall between the CIA and the FBI created by the Clinton white house...
But they (NORAD) had exercises where they simulated planes hitting the WTC, Pentagon, and White House. I'm sure they knew it was possible. There's a difference between knowing something is possible and seeing it coming. The second that plane came withing 50 miles of the Pentagon it should have been shot down or something like that. These planes were being tracked, on radar, and the second a plane goes off course/communication is lost something should be done. I don't believe that the people who supervise Pentagon airspace were unable to do anything.
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The conspiracy theories have now started about Haiti
http://reason.com/blog/2010/01/20/chavista-experts-say-us-milita
:::D
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Don't be like this guy.
(http://theboxpress.com/wp-content/uploads/tin-foil-hat-625p.jpg)
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Don't be like this guy.
(http://theboxpress.com/wp-content/uploads/tin-foil-hat-625p.jpg)
:::D
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Mo2388, Im disappointed in you... I think your left wing associates have been getting to you. Please look for reality and not fantasy.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
Once again everything goes to hell when I'm not here. People watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU&feature=related
What is this garbage, Ron? People making uninformed conjectures about what they THINK they are seeing does not make it what actually IS happening.
Simple question: If it was a demolition, then why did it take longer than free fall speed to for the buildings to fall? They clearly did not fall at freefall speed but hit resistance at each floor as the floors on top came pancaking down onto each successive floor. Demolitions are done at freefall speed. The explosives are placed inside the building so that the foundations are blown out simultaneously so that there is no resistance on the way down. It falls like if you dropped something in the air. This is called freefall. The only resistance would be air resistance. In the case of tons of metal and steal and concrete, as that which fell, air resistance would be negligible. It is very clear the buildings did NOT fall at free fall speed. One of them took at least 20 seconds to reach the bottom. That is proof that it was not a controlled demolition.
Peter Jennings reacted to what he saw and guessed at what happened. But the evidence requires us to analyze what actually did happen. No explosives planted. No freefall. Therefore, no demolition.
One question: did you even watch the video? (maybe I confused it with another video)
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Mo2388, Im disappointed in you... I think your left wing associates have been getting to you. Please look for reality and not fantasy.
Actually, out of the both of them, they don't buy in to any of the conspiracies. At all. I don't either. I just don't understand a few things. I'm not making any statements, I'm just asking a few questions. But if you want to base breaking up our friendship, something I cherish, on a couple of questions then the only person you should be disappointed in is yourself.
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Mo2388, Im disappointed in you... I think your left wing associates have been getting to you. Please look for reality and not fantasy.
Actually, out of the both of them, they don't buy in to any of the conspiracies. At all. I don't either. I just don't understand a few things. I'm not making any statements, I'm just asking a few questions. But if you want to base breaking up our friendship, something I cherish, on a couple of questions then the only person you should be disappointed in is yourself.
No it is not the asking questions, this is always a good thing.
The issue is that by even discussing this in the open it gives those who believe the conspiracies pleasure in seeing the confusion they have spread. I could have seen this day coming, when Americans would doubt their own government. But I am open to discussion... But to me it is similar to discussing whether Hitler was really the one who planned the Holocaust. The history is clear, yet the deniers of the Holocaust are many...
This is why I am against 'open discussion' on the topic, it invites those who doubt and want to create doubt.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
Once again everything goes to hell when I'm not here. People watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU&feature=related
What is this garbage, Ron? People making uninformed conjectures about what they THINK they are seeing does not make it what actually IS happening.
Simple question: If it was a demolition, then why did it take longer than free fall speed to for the buildings to fall? They clearly did not fall at freefall speed but hit resistance at each floor as the floors on top came pancaking down onto each successive floor. Demolitions are done at freefall speed. The explosives are placed inside the building so that the foundations are blown out simultaneously so that there is no resistance on the way down. It falls like if you dropped something in the air. This is called freefall. The only resistance would be air resistance. In the case of tons of metal and steal and concrete, as that which fell, air resistance would be negligible. It is very clear the buildings did NOT fall at free fall speed. One of them took at least 20 seconds to reach the bottom. That is proof that it was not a controlled demolition.
Peter Jennings reacted to what he saw and guessed at what happened. But the evidence requires us to analyze what actually did happen. No explosives planted. No freefall. Therefore, no demolition.
One question: did you even watch the video? (maybe I confused it with another video)
I watched the beginning, it quotes about 30 people saying 'explosions, explosions' 'controlled demolition.' After a few minutes of that, I'm not going to keep watching.
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They saw 3 of the planes trail off their course. It took time for the plane to travel to its final destination. Cheney was told how many miles away the plane was, he was being updated. This is Washington D.C. the most protected airspace in the world. That plane should have not gotten close to the Pentagon. And the plane that hit the second tower was being talked about over the radios. Any plan that is found over airspace that is protected or any plane that tails off course is tracked by the air force (and the like). I don't believe for one second that they couldn't shoot down at least one plane (particularly the Pentagon one).
I believe it 100% that they couldn't shoot down the planes... The policies required to do so had not been implemented. There was a great disconnect between what was supposed to happen and what happened. In the September 10th world nobody would have dreamed that this kind of attack was possible. Truth is that some of the intelligence community knew that these kinds of attacks were planned but because nobody believed it could happen, nobody heeded the advice of this intelligence.
I do not believe for one second that an American president who is beholden to the American taxpayer would allow Americans to be killed on American soil. In order for a conspiracy to be succesfull requires many to be involved. There is no way that the American lives were sacrificed in order to create a 'holy war' as the conspiracy theorists assert. The Holy War of Jihad has been declared 30 years before the 9/11 attacks, if anyone is old enough to remember the 1980s Lebanon Marine barracks massacre.
The problem, as the 9/11 commission concluded, was poor communication between domestic and foreign intelligence agencies due to the Firewall between the CIA and the FBI created by the Clinton white house...
But they (NORAD) had exercises where they simulated planes hitting the WTC, Pentagon, and White House. I'm sure they knew it was possible. There's a difference between knowing something is possible and seeing it coming. The second that plane came withing 50 miles of the Pentagon it should have been shot down or something like that. These planes were being tracked, on radar, and the second a plane goes off course/communication is lost something should be done. I don't believe that the people who supervise Pentagon airspace were unable to do anything.
Are you kidding me? Based on the time line, the first information that the aircraft was hijacked came about 11 minutes before it hit the Pentagon. Assuming a groundspeed of about 400 mph it would take about 7.5 minutes to travel 50 miles. With the aircraft transponder turned off, air traffic control could not track them with detailed information. If they were flying low enough, they may have had no or sporadic radar returns. As I indicated in my previous post, the procedures in place prior to 9/11 were not sufficient to intercept and shoot down hijacked airliners in a timely manner. Only flight 93, which was hijacked nearly a half hour later, would have been a candidate for a fighter jet shoot down and, as I again stated in my previous post, it may have in fact been shot down by fighter jets.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
בס"ד
Once again everything goes to hell when I'm not here. People watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgSaBT9hNU&feature=related
What is this garbage, Ron? People making uninformed conjectures about what they THINK they are seeing does not make it what actually IS happening.
Simple question: If it was a demolition, then why did it take longer than free fall speed to for the buildings to fall? They clearly did not fall at freefall speed but hit resistance at each floor as the floors on top came pancaking down onto each successive floor. Demolitions are done at freefall speed. The explosives are placed inside the building so that the foundations are blown out simultaneously so that there is no resistance on the way down. It falls like if you dropped something in the air. This is called freefall. The only resistance would be air resistance. In the case of tons of metal and steal and concrete, as that which fell, air resistance would be negligible. It is very clear the buildings did NOT fall at free fall speed. One of them took at least 20 seconds to reach the bottom. That is proof that it was not a controlled demolition.
Peter Jennings reacted to what he saw and guessed at what happened. But the evidence requires us to analyze what actually did happen. No explosives planted. No freefall. Therefore, no demolition.
One question: did you even watch the video? (maybe I confused it with another video)
I watched the beginning, it quotes about 30 people saying 'explosions, explosions' 'controlled demolition.' After a few minutes of that, I'm not going to keep watching.
I know what you think. That's what I thought when I saw it first. It's a video containing 9/11 so-called truthers' arguments and the answers to these arguments.
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בס"ד
I know what you think. That's what I thought when I saw it first. It's a video containing 9/11 so-called truthers' arguments and the answers to these arguments.
Ah ok, I didn't realize they were going to start speaking about the facts. I've already heard these arguments and their refutations many times, but it looks like other people on this site definitely need to watch it.
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They saw 3 of the planes trail off their course. It took time for the plane to travel to its final destination. Cheney was told how many miles away the plane was, he was being updated. This is Washington D.C. the most protected airspace in the world. That plane should have not gotten close to the Pentagon. And the plane that hit the second tower was being talked about over the radios. Any plan that is found over airspace that is protected or any plane that tails off course is tracked by the air force (and the like). I don't believe for one second that they couldn't shoot down at least one plane (particularly the Pentagon one).
I believe it 100% that they couldn't shoot down the planes... The policies required to do so had not been implemented. There was a great disconnect between what was supposed to happen and what happened. In the September 10th world nobody would have dreamed that this kind of attack was possible. Truth is that some of the intelligence community knew that these kinds of attacks were planned but because nobody believed it could happen, nobody heeded the advice of this intelligence.
I do not believe for one second that an American president who is beholden to the American taxpayer would allow Americans to be killed on American soil. In order for a conspiracy to be succesfull requires many to be involved. There is no way that the American lives were sacrificed in order to create a 'holy war' as the conspiracy theorists assert. The Holy War of Jihad has been declared 30 years before the 9/11 attacks, if anyone is old enough to remember the 1980s Lebanon Marine barracks massacre.
The problem, as the 9/11 commission concluded, was poor communication between domestic and foreign intelligence agencies due to the Firewall between the CIA and the FBI created by the Clinton white house...
But they (NORAD) had exercises where they simulated planes hitting the WTC, Pentagon, and White House. I'm sure they knew it was possible. There's a difference between knowing something is possible and seeing it coming. The second that plane came withing 50 miles of the Pentagon it should have been shot down or something like that. These planes were being tracked, on radar, and the second a plane goes off course/communication is lost something should be done. I don't believe that the people who supervise Pentagon airspace were unable to do anything.
Are you kidding me? Based on the time line, the first information that the aircraft was hijacked came about 11 minutes before it hit the Pentagon. Assuming a groundspeed of about 400 mph it would take about 7.5 minutes to travel 50 miles. With the aircraft transponder turned off, air traffic control could not track them with detailed information. If they were flying low enough, they may have had no or sporadic radar returns. As I indicated in my previous post, the procedures in place prior to 9/11 were not sufficient to intercept and shoot down hijacked airliners in a timely manner. Only flight 93, which was hijacked nearly a half hour later, would have been a candidate for a fighter jet shoot down and, as I again stated in my previous post, it may have in fact been shot down by fighter jets.
So you're saying whoever monitors D.C. airspace is helpless?
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Those people who think 9/11 was an inside job are the very same people who insist that muslims are peaceful and islam is a religion of peace.
This is also a slap in the face to all 9/11 victims and their families. Muman, again I am so sorry for your terrible loss on 9/11....I don't blame you for being upset about this tread.
How can any of our forum members have doubts about 9/11 ?
For those of you who think 9/11 was an inside job let me say this.........the muslim nazis appreciate your doubts and you give them the incentive to keep it up.
Shalom - Dox
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That's good stuff Ariel, exactly what I was looking for. However, why has the government not answered these questions? Basically, it's just one word against the other here, and my knowledge of science is not good enough to worry about controlled demolitions or melting steel, cordite, thermite, or any other chemical reaction. The other thing that bothers me is how not even one plane was traced by a fighter jet.
To repeat, Rumstead confirmed, albeit inadvertently, that flight 93 had been shot down. This is unrelated to any conspiracy theory, but shows yet again how the US media can be manipulated such that stating the obvious becomes stating the eccentric.
Oh this is just classic. What a perfect example of how unreasonable and irrational people get about these things.
First of all, it's RUMSFELD, not Rumstead. Secondly, when he said that (to a group of soldiers, I saw the speech on youtube) it was obviously a slip of the tongue. Or else why wouldn't he have said so before or after? Why did no one else in the govt ever say such a thing. And if he was saying something completely new (since no one had said it before), why was there no shock at all and no expression whatsoever that he was saying anything new or unknown. It's quite clear that that statement was said accidentally. Do you think there's a whole army of US soldiers out there who think it is common knowledge that we shot down the plane, so all of them didn't blink when he said that? lol. Yes, it's a big govt secret yet thousands of US soldiers are in on it, and not one has come forward and not one has spoken about it. What a joke!
Now let's demonstrate how silly this is. If you or I, or any member of the press asked Donald Rumsfeld point blank: Was flight 93 shot down? Would he say yes or no? Clearly he would say no. So what are you claiming, that when he slipped up it was a "freudian slip" - that's the real truth they're 'secretly' hiding, yet he was not the slightest bit upset or disturbed that he let it slip out and nobody came out to deny it afterwards vigorously? Even tho he let slip out the big secret?
Now if I ask you, Do you really think his name was Rumstead? Would you say yes or no? And if you say no, that it was a slip of the tongue, or otherwise known as a typo, should I assume that was a freudian slip and really the big secret you've been hiding all along that Rumsfeld's name as a child was Rumstead and everyone has been hiding that? But you just sort of let it slip in a side comment when no one was paying attention, just to mess with us, as a and/or as a freudian slip. Or should I supposed that all JTF members know this secret that his name is really Rumstead? And that is why no one else thought twice about it except me? Calling an incorrect statement a "freudian slip" is silly conjecture about psychology and has nothing to do with fact or evidence.
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Donald Rumsfeld was one of the best people in the Bush Administration. He actually left his office the day of the attack and went into the damaged section of the Pentagon building to help rescue the injured from the burning building. People like Rumsfeld took there responsibility to the American people seriously. If the liberals in congress would have let him do his job unhampered things would have gone quite differently in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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They saw 3 of the planes trail off their course. It took time for the plane to travel to its final destination. Cheney was told how many miles away the plane was, he was being updated. This is Washington D.C. the most protected airspace in the world. That plane should have not gotten close to the Pentagon. And the plane that hit the second tower was being talked about over the radios. Any plan that is found over airspace that is protected or any plane that tails off course is tracked by the air force (and the like). I don't believe for one second that they couldn't shoot down at least one plane (particularly the Pentagon one).
I believe it 100% that they couldn't shoot down the planes... The policies required to do so had not been implemented. There was a great disconnect between what was supposed to happen and what happened. In the September 10th world nobody would have dreamed that this kind of attack was possible. Truth is that some of the intelligence community knew that these kinds of attacks were planned but because nobody believed it could happen, nobody heeded the advice of this intelligence.
I do not believe for one second that an American president who is beholden to the American taxpayer would allow Americans to be killed on American soil. In order for a conspiracy to be succesfull requires many to be involved. There is no way that the American lives were sacrificed in order to create a 'holy war' as the conspiracy theorists assert. The Holy War of Jihad has been declared 30 years before the 9/11 attacks, if anyone is old enough to remember the 1980s Lebanon Marine barracks massacre.
The problem, as the 9/11 commission concluded, was poor communication between domestic and foreign intelligence agencies due to the Firewall between the CIA and the FBI created by the Clinton white house...
But they (NORAD) had exercises where they simulated planes hitting the WTC, Pentagon, and White House. I'm sure they knew it was possible. There's a difference between knowing something is possible and seeing it coming. The second that plane came withing 50 miles of the Pentagon it should have been shot down or something like that. These planes were being tracked, on radar, and the second a plane goes off course/communication is lost something should be done. I don't believe that the people who supervise Pentagon airspace were unable to do anything.
Are you kidding me? Based on the time line, the first information that the aircraft was hijacked came about 11 minutes before it hit the Pentagon. Assuming a groundspeed of about 400 mph it would take about 7.5 minutes to travel 50 miles. With the aircraft transponder turned off, air traffic control could not track them with detailed information. If they were flying low enough, they may have had no or sporadic radar returns. As I indicated in my previous post, the procedures in place prior to 9/11 were not sufficient to intercept and shoot down hijacked airliners in a timely manner. Only flight 93, which was hijacked nearly a half hour later, would have been a candidate for a fighter jet shoot down and, as I again stated in my previous post, it may have in fact been shot down by fighter jets.
So you're saying whoever monitors D.C. airspace is helpless?
No, that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that pre-9/11, when no one expected this type of attack, the procedures were not in place to intercept and shoot down a civilian airliner in a timely manner. Today, any irregular behavior by passengers aboard an aircraft, let alone an actual attempted hijacking, would be reported in a much more timely manner and procedures are in place to dispatch fighter jets to intercept that aircraft and, if necessary, shoot it down.
Your questions and confusion are simply a matter of looking at pre-9/11 events with a post-9/11 mentality.