JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on August 22, 2007, 12:32:30 AM
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I've been noticing that Chaim's belief that polygamy is not at all inherently wrong has been stirring up quite a bit of dissent, so I wanted to cast my lot into the waters and state my stance, hopefully bringing some calm.
A: Chaim has every right to his views and I don't think it's appropriate to be angry with him over this or anything else. Moreover, the people of Israel have every right to decide how the Jewish state should be and what will and will not be allowed. As long as nobody is being forced into marriages they do not want, it will not bother me if the Jews choose to permit this for themselves in their own land.
B: Do I like the idea of polygamy personally? No. It does seem unnatural to me. However, one must admit that like Chaim pointed out, most of the great Jewish fathers and prophets and leaders had many wives, and it is never actually condemned, and in fact it appears in some cases that G-d blessed righteous men with many wives. I do think Lisa has a valid case that the Genesis plan appears to be one man/one woman, but this is never explicitly stated. Thus, I can't say for a fact whether it is right or wrong. :-\ ???
Chaimfan
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Anybody who wants more than one mother-in-law is crazy.
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Anybody who wants more than one mother-in-law is crazy.
;D :D ;D :D
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Poligamy is normal for men. Men are designed to have many children by many women.
Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.
This is how men and women are designed...differently. For good or for bad.
This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die." The same cannot be said about women.
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
That's true. Many men have to either die, or be without a woman for polygamy to work.
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The same cannot be said about women.
I really don't know about that. Infidelity statistics prove that there are plenty of exceptions.
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Poligamy is normal for men. Men are designed to have many children by many women.
Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.
This is how men and women are designed...differently. For good or for bad.
This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die." The same cannot be said about women.
I am NOT agree with what you just said!!! and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!
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The same cannot be said about women.
I really don't know about that. Infidelity statistics prove that there are plenty of exceptions.
Women cheat for a different reason.
Men are naturally turned on by exciting, new women and cheat for this reason, mainly.
Women cheat when their spouse isn't there for them in some form or another. When women cheat, it is either to get back at their spouse or because they simply feel secure having a man close by.
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Poligamy is normal for men. Men are designed to have many children by many women.
Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.
This is how men and women are designed...differently. For good or for bad.
This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die." The same cannot be said about women.
I am NOT agree with what you just said!!! and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!
Then, men are bastards.
This is how men are, like it or not.
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Poligamy is normal for men. Men are designed to have many children by many women.
Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.
This is how men and women are designed...differently. For good or for bad.
This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die." The same cannot be said about women.
I am NOT agree with what you just said!!! and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!
I hope your boyfriend doesn't annoy you, Yasmine! :D :D
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I am also totally against polygammy. Do we really want to be like muslims popping out 60 kids per man with 20 different women. I do want jews to reproduce but we can't risk something like polygammy.
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Men are naturally turned on by exciting, new women and cheat for this reason, mainly.
Women cheat when their spouse isn't there for them in some form or another. When women cheat, it is either to get back at their spouse or because they simply feel secure having a man close by.
Historically this may have been true, but now the lines are so blurred they don't really exist much anymore. Plenty of women are sexually predatory and plenty of men want a nice, stable girl to settle down and start a family with.
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Men are naturally turned on by exciting, new women and cheat for this reason, mainly.
Women cheat when their spouse isn't there for them in some form or another. When women cheat, it is either to get back at their spouse or because they simply feel secure having a man close by.
Historically this may have been true, but now the lines are so blurred they don't really exist much anymore. Plenty of women are sexually predatory and plenty of men want a nice, stable girl to settle down and start a family with.
Yes. There are exceptions...like intelligent black people.
There are some women that are complete sluts (most only give the appearance of being sluts) and there are some men that are fruitcakes.
I'm talking about averages, however.
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Well, I think Chaim is somewhat in the category I gave. He just wants to marry a devout, G-dly Jewish woman and start a family.
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Well, I think Chaim is somewhat in the category I gave. He just wants to marry a devout, G-dly Jewish woman and start a family.
You're speaking of morality.
I'm speaking of sexual attraction and human nature.
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Yes, but I think sexuality is largely culturally-driven. In the modern West, most men believe seeing two women together sexually is a turn-on and "hot" and "cool". Two generations ago in the West, most men would have found it sickening.
Times change and shift constantly.
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A small problem in Chaim's defense of polygamy were the saddiqs that he mentioned. I think he mentioned King Solomon A"h. The Torah cleary denounced any king that had too many wives, and that ended up being the source of Solomon's downfall. Of course, he was a great saint, but like all humans, he made a mistake.
This is actually what I appreciate about the Bible. The Bible expects that people will screw up, even the most righteous. And these righteous people showed us that it is possible to repent for our own wrongdoings if we are just honest with ourselves and G-d.
Let me give the Torah's perspective here..Shlomo Hamelech(king solomon), was actually criticized for having so many wives by the talmud, it even says that he became temporarily idolatrous because he had so many wives(shikselehs to boot). Ashkenazic jews(eastern european), cannot practice polygamy anymore, after the decree of the Rishon Rabbeinu Gershom, who decreed that, among other thins, men can no longer have more than one wife, due to the fact that he saw that they were not doing it for the sake of the mitzva(l'shmo), anymore. The people who were practicing polygamy were having more than one wife for the sake of enjoyment, and not for the mitzvos that one can accomplish with the practice(like taking care of widdows, orphans, and converts, for an example of this, look at the story of Ruth).
Polygamy is wrong if not done for the right reasons - Rabbeinu Gershom lived hundreds of yars ago, if the people of his time, who were virtually all frum(religious Jews), coud not handle polygamy, then how brazen are we to postulate that we can, in our downtrodden era?
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Chakma613, I'm sorry to tell you this but you are mistaken. First of all, polygamy is NOT wrong, the Torah allows polygamy and whatever the Torah allows is permitted. Rabbis are NOT allowed to make decrees forbidding something the Torah permits, as the Torah says "do not add to it and do not take away from it" with the one exception of a Horah Shah or in English an emergency temporary decree lasting a very short time. This is why Rabbenu Gershom's decree is controversial, since he made a 1000 year decree, which JDL4EVER and the Sephardic Jews think that this is not allowed for a Rabbi to do, since a Horah Shah is only supposed to be a for a very short time period of imminent like at most for lasting a few years. The second mystery is why Rabbenu Gershom made this decree. You give an explanation that the Jews weren't practicing polygamy properly which makes no sense at all to me, there is no proper way at all to practice polygamy if it is a permitted practice. In my opinion, the real explanation is that he didn't want the Gentiles living with us to make fun of us for having several wives when they don't practice polygamy any more, so he made this decree. Obviously, if this was the reason for his decree "to not offend the Gentiles", then we can understand why the Sephardic Jews didn't accept this decree since this is not a reason of imminent need, as R' Kahane would say "who cares about what the Gentiles think, we follow the Torah". Thirdly, his 1000 year decree expired already so polygamy is no longer forbidden for Askenazim, but none the less we don't do it any more since it hasn't been practiced for 1000 years. The Sephardic Jews recently used to practice polygamy. My father's Karate instructor was a Sephardic Jew from an Arab country who's father had 2 wives.
You have to be careful to not add anything to the Torah like making up stories that when polygamy was used to only allowed if you marry orphans. I know your intentions are for the sake of heaven, but you are adding to the Torah, which is forbidden. The Torah allows polygamy and does not add any rules to it with the exception on the limit on the number of wives you could have.
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Chakma613, I'm sorry to tell you this but you are mistaken. First of all, polygamy is NOT wrong, the Torah allows polygamy and whatever the Torah allows is permitted. Rabbis are NOT allowed to make decrees forbidding something the Torah permits, with the exception of a Horah Shah or in English an emergency temporary decree lasting a very short time. This is why Rabbenu Gershom's decree is controversial, since he made a 1000 year decree, which JDL4EVER and the Sephardic Jews think that this is not allowed for a Rabbi to do, since a Horay Shah is only supposed to be a for a very short time period of imminent need. The second mystery is why Rabbenu Gershom made this decree. You give an explanation that the Jews weren't practicing polygamy properly which makes no sense to me. In my opinion, the real explanation is that he didn't want the Gentiles living with us to make fun of us for having several wives when they don't practice this any more, so he made this decree. Obviously, if this was the reason for his decree "to not offend the Gentiles", then we can understand why the Sephardic Jews didn't accept this decree since this is not a reason of imminent need, as R' Kahane would say "who cares about what the Gentiles think, we follow the Torah". Thirdly, his 1000 year decree expired so polygamy is no longer forbidden for Askenazim, but none the less we don't do it any more since it hasn't been practiced for 1000 years. The Sephardic Jews recently used to practice polygamy. My father's Karate instructor was a Sephardic Jew from an Arab country who's father had 2 wives.
The reason I gave for Rabbeinu Gershom's decree is what he wrote in his sefer, I did not invent anything and attribut it to him cv's. Sephardim can still practice polygamy, however it is undisputed in the Ashkenazic community that what RG said holds true for today. I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim. RG was a great rishon who deserves respect - his decree became a custom for the Jewish people to follow, and to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with the Goyim's attitude. Even if it did, I'm sorry to say it, but while R' Kahane was great, He was NOT a rishon. he wasn't even a posek. It's like comparing him to Rambam, Rosh, Maharsha, etc..it can't be done.
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Poligamy is normal for men. Men are designed to have many children by many women.
Women are designed to have one child at a time, making polygamy--in their case--futile.
This is how men and women are designed...differently. For good or for bad.
This explains why (for men), "the day you stop looking is the day you die." The same cannot be said about women.
I am NOT agree with what you just said!!! and I think that MEN who are doing this are just very frustrated, insecure of themselves, need more attention from many women or ANY women! I personally don`t think that is MENs nature, it`s just a justification of their insecureness..it`s simple! Men who are doing that are just BASTARDS!
I hope your boyfriend doesn't annoy you, Yasmine! :D :D
ahahahahh ..... this guy's always on
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the only people who have polygamy are the Muslims... do we really need to do what they do... they are immoral and unworthy of having one wife let alone two or more...
Polygamy is something the jews did back then because there wern't that many at all and needed to become a "mass movement" so to speak...
I personally think we are in the 21st century... we shouldn't have polygamy because it completely destroys the idea of love for one person which is a very beautiful thing... I can't even get one Lady friend... imagine what its going to be like for women and men trying to find their soul mate if this were ever instated
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The reason I gave for Rabbeinu Gershom's decree is what he wrote in his sefer, I did not invent anything and attribut it to him cv's. Sephardim can still practice polygamy, however it is undisputed in the Ashkenazic community that what RG said holds true for today. I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim. RG was a great rishon who deserves respect - his decree became a custom for the Jewish people to follow, and to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with the Goyim's attitude. Even if it did, I'm sorry to say it, but while R' Kahane was great, He was NOT a rishon. he wasn't even a posek. It's like comparing him to Rambam, Rosh, Maharsha, etc..it can't be done.
If he did give the reason you gave, then I am mistaken. If you can give a source then please do so. I did not deny that R' Gershom was a great authority and the practice of polygamy is still not practiced by myself and the Askenazim nor do I plan on having more than one wife. I was arguing Torah with you, and showing you the Sephardic point of view since they do have a valid Torah objection which I agree with. Just because someone is a Sage does not mean that we are not allowed to confront them on their teachings if we think they made a mistake, as R' Kahane writes these same words and proves it from the incident with Hanah and Eli in Samuel 1. Secondly, how do you know that R' Gershom was a bigger sage than R' Kahane? I think that R' Kahane was on par with R' Gershom.
Also the guy's decree was only for 1000 years which passed.
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The reason I gave for Rabbeinu Gershom's decree is what he wrote in his sefer, I did not invent anything and attribut it to him cv's. Sephardim can still practice polygamy, however it is undisputed in the Ashkenazic community that what RG said holds true for today. I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim. RG was a great rishon who deserves respect - his decree became a custom for the Jewish people to follow, and to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with the Goyim's attitude. Even if it did, I'm sorry to say it, but while R' Kahane was great, He was NOT a rishon. he wasn't even a posek. It's like comparing him to Rambam, Rosh, Maharsha, etc..it can't be done.
If he did give the reason you gave, then I am mistaken. If you can give a source then please do so. I did not deny that R' Gershom was a great authority and the practice of polygamy is still not practiced by myself and the Askenazim nor do I plan on having more than one wife. I was arguing Torah with you, and showing you the Sephardic point of view since they do have a valid Torah objection which I agree with. Just because someone is a Sage does not mean that we are not allowed to confront them on their teachings if we think they made a mistake, as R' Kahane writes these same words and proves it from the incident with Hanah and Eli in Samuel 1. Secondly, how do you know that R' Gershom was a bigger sage than R' Kahane? I think that R' Kahane was on par with R' Gershom.
I know that R'Gershom was a greater sage because we have a teaching that states that with every generation, we lose a little bit of Torah or rather, we get further away from it, we are on a downward cycle, until Mosiach comes. Even in the times o the Gemara this was so, See Talmud Brachos chapter keitzad mevarchin for a strory about the differences between the "doros hareshonim" and the "doros achronim". To say that the Torah of Rabbi Kahane was even close to that of RG, is like saying that Rashi is like Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L, you can't compare a rishon with an acharei achron.
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the only people who have polygamy are the Muslims... do we really need to do what they do... they are immoral and unworthy of having one wife let alone two or more...
Polygamy is something the jews did back then because there wern't that many at all and needed to become a "mass movement" so to speak...
I personally think we are in the 21st century... we shouldn't have polygamy because it completely destroys the idea of love for one person which is a very beautiful thing... I can't even get one Lady friend... imagine what its going to be like for women and men trying to find their soul mate if this were ever instated
From the perspective of Jeiwsh law, that is not a valid argument. Torah dopes not change, period. However, there are valid arguments for the ban on polygamy within halacha, bu what you said is basically what the reformers and conservatives say, they base their "halachik" decisions on the "times"
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The reason I gave for Rabbeinu Gershom's decree is what he wrote in his sefer, I did not invent anything and attribut it to him cv's. Sephardim can still practice polygamy, however it is undisputed in the Ashkenazic community that what RG said holds true for today. I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim. RG was a great rishon who deserves respect - his decree became a custom for the Jewish people to follow, and to my knowledge, it had nothing to do with the Goyim's attitude. Even if it did, I'm sorry to say it, but while R' Kahane was great, He was NOT a rishon. he wasn't even a posek. It's like comparing him to Rambam, Rosh, Maharsha, etc..it can't be done.
If he did give the reason you gave, then I am mistaken. If you can give a source then please do so. I did not deny that R' Gershom was a great authority and the practice of polygamy is still not practiced by myself and the Askenazim nor do I plan on having more than one wife. I was arguing Torah with you, and showing you the Sephardic point of view since they do have a valid Torah objection which I agree with. Just because someone is a Sage does not mean that we are not allowed to confront them on their teachings if we think they made a mistake, as R' Kahane writes these same words and proves it from the incident with Hanah and Eli in Samuel 1. Secondly, how do you know that R' Gershom was a bigger sage than R' Kahane? I think that R' Kahane was on par with R' Gershom.
Also the guy's decree was only for 1000 years which passed.
I'll ask my rebbe for the source, but for now, I can't remember it
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.
A woman having multiple husbands?? That goes against the 7 laws of noah..see hilchos arayos(laws of forbidden relationships), one of them is the prohibition of znus with an aishes ish(intercourse with a married woman), and the punishment for doing that is death.
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.
A woman having multiple husbands?? That goes against the 7 laws of noah..see hilchos arayos(laws of forbidden relationships), one of them is the prohibition of znus with an aishes ish(intercourse with a married woman), and the punishment for doing that is death.
I understand that. But that's their culture and they don't follow these laws. We can condemn for this if we want, but that would be engaging in ethnocentrism, at least according to my professor from the liberal state college I attended.
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.
A woman having multiple husbands?? That goes against the 7 laws of noah..see hilchos arayos(laws of forbidden relationships), one of them is the prohibition of znus with an aishes ish(intercourse with a married woman), and the punishment for doing that is death.
I understand that. But that's their culture and they don't follow these laws. We can condemn for this if we want, but that would be engaging in ethnocentrism, at least according to my professor from the liberal state college I attended.
Her's the deal..all of humanity has had the chance at one point or another to follow th 7 laws of Noah, they are the universal law of mankind. I cannot care less about their culture if they do not follow these laws, they are just as responsible for their deeds as any other nation, and thy are not excused because "they have a different culture" yeah, a G-dless one that rejects the basics of moral decency. Since when do we have to acknowledge, and not condemn those who are damaging the world with their sins? How is ti "ethnocentric" for us to want to repair the world's sins? It's ridiculous, and it stems from the idea that people should be able to do whatever they want and not be reprimanded for doing it, and that is totally anti-torah.
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According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.
One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.
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I think if all parties are happy in a polygamic relationship there isn't anything wrong with it. However, it greatly heightens the chance of immoral behaviors occuring when you're in a relationship like that. I think the human condition dictates jealousy, mistreatment of children and even homosexual relations are much more likely to occur. Like much of the Bible, it gives us a blueprint with how to best lead our lives, and polygamy is generally not the best way to do things.
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According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.
One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.
Ha, "ashkenazic judaism" that's a laugh..Judaism is Judiasm, the torah is indivisible, and the only differences are in Minhagim(customs). It just shows you who's editing wikipedia, those who would have you believe that Judaism has been changed by Rabbis, and that it is no longer in its purest form. also, calling authenitc judaism"rabbinic" is in itself wrong. The perushim(pharisees), did not practice any form of judaism that was different from that which was given to the jews at Sinai by Hashem. To call it rabbinic judaism is to say that i is not the word of G-d, when in fact it is. To answer your question about a divorce, a woman certainly has the right to ask for one if she feels it's necessary, however she must be given a divorce document called a Get by her husband, only then can she remarry.
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I know that R'Gershom was a greater sage because we have a teaching that states that with every generation, we lose a little bit of Torah or rather, we get further away from it, we are on a downward cycle, until Mosiach comes. Even in the times o the Gemara this was so, See Talmud Brachos chapter keitzad mevarchin for a strory about the differences between the "doros hareshonim" and the "doros achronim". To say that the Torah of Rabbi Kahane was even close to that of RG, is like saying that Rashi is like Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L, you can't compare a rishon with an acharei achron.
I am aware that there is a general rule that is taught in the Talmud that each successive generation is not as great as the previous one, but this is just a general rule speaking in generalities and is not to be interpreted in absolutes. There are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes a generation is better than it's previous generation, as you find several examples in the writings of the Prophets. Similarly, sometimes a Sage arises that is a throwback from previous generations in greatness (see the Talmud where it says a heavenly voice proclaimed that Hillel the little was worthy of the Ruach Hakodesh). I am saying that you can not speak in absolutes saying that no one was as great as R' Gershom in this generation, since I believe that R' Kahane was a throwback from previous generations and even R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought so as well and said that R' Kahane was a gilgul of a biblical warrior. If R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought that R' Kahane was on par with the Biblical warriors, so me thinking he was on par with Rabbenu Gershom is a moderate position.
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Since I was the one who posted in Ask JTF about polygamy, I figured I'd throw my two cents in here, being that I strongly disagree with Chaim on this, and I apologize in advance for my long post. As I see it, even though polygamy was not prohibited, it was not directly sanctioned either.
First off Genesis says the following:
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
Notice that Genesis did not say "wives." Also, once you marry one wife, how can you leave your mother and father a second time?
And consider Deuteronomy 17:14-17
14 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," 15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again." 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
Speaking of a man's heart being led astray, take the example of King Solomon, who had 700 wives and 300 concubines, and who ended up allowing these wives to build idolatrous temples in Israel. That was very bad!
Note that the following Biblical figures were all monogamous:
Adam and Eve
Noah
Job
Isaac
Moses
And like I posted on Ask JTF last week, all this polygamy created family problems. Take the example of Isaac/Ishmael. As a result of Abraham's mating with Hagar, we have the hateful fanatic Muslims.
There's also (for me) the very sad example of Leah, Jacob's wife. She was unloved, and resented, and she knew it! Her children, also knew on some level that their mother was not loved. Take the example of Reuben bringing mandrakes (a known aphrodisiac) for his mother.
Genesis 30:14-15
14 One day during the wheat harvest, Reuben found some mandrakes growing in a field and brought the roots to his mother, Leah. Rachel begged Leah to give some of them to her.
15 But Leah angrily replied, "Wasn't it enough that you stole my husband? Now will you steal my son's mandrake roots, too?" Rachel said, "I will let him sleep with you tonight in exchange for the mandrake roots."
This same Reuben is the one who went and had sex with his father's concubine (Genesis 35:22, 49:4). Now I'm sorry, but Reuben had some major issues. I should think much of them had to do with knowing his father did not love his mother.
And how about Reuben and all his brothers selling Joseph into slavery? That's certainly not the behavior of a happy family.
And speaking of issues, look at King David's children. Is having sex with all your father's concubines in an open tent on the roof of the house normal behavior? Or how about trying to rape your half sister?
So I guess what I'm getting at is that with polygamy, there are always the favored wives with their kids" and the less favored wives with their kids, who all know they're less favored, but were stuck in that situation, hence all the fighting and resentment.
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In other words, you're not overjoyed at the prospect of sharing a husband, eh Lisa?
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Since I was the one who posted in Ask JTF about polygamy, I figured I'd throw my two cents in here, being that I strongly disagree with Chaim on this, and I apologize in advance for my long post. As I see it, even though polygamy was not prohibited, it was not directly sanctioned either.
First off Genesis says the following:
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
Notice that Genesis did not say "wives." Also, once you marry one wife, how can you leave your mother and father a second time?
And consider Deuteronomy 17:14-17
14 When you enter the land the LORD your G-d is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," 15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your G-d chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again." 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
Speaking of a man's heart being led astray, take the example of King Solomon, who had 700 wives and 300 concubines, and who ended up allowing these wives to build idolatrous temples in Israel. That was very bad!
Note that the following Biblical figures were all monogamous:
Adam and Eve
Noah
Job
Isaac
Moses
And like I posted on Ask JTF last week, all this polygamy created family problems. Take the example of Isaac/Ishmael. As a result of Abraham's mating with Hagar, we have the hateful fanatic Muslims.
There's also (for me) the very sad example of Leah, Jacob's wife. She was unloved, and resented, and she knew it! Her children, also knew on some level that their mother was not loved. Take the example of Reuben bringing mandrakes (a known aphrodisiac) for his mother.
Genesis 30:14-15
14 One day during the wheat harvest, Reuben found some mandrakes growing in a field and brought the roots to his mother, Leah. Rachel begged Leah to give some of them to her.
15 But Leah angrily replied, "Wasn't it enough that you stole my husband? Now will you steal my son's mandrake roots, too?" Rachel said, "I will let him sleep with you tonight in exchange for the mandrake roots."
This same Reuben is the one who went and had sex with his father's concubine (Genesis 35:22, 49:4). Now I'm sorry, but Reuben had some major issues. I should think much of them had to do with knowing his father did not love his mother.
And how about Reuben and all his brothers selling Joseph into slavery? That's certainly not the behavior of a happy family.
And speaking of issues, look at King David's children. Is having sex with all your father's concubines in an open tent on the roof of the house normal behavior? Or how about trying to rape your half sister?
So I guess what I'm getting at is that with polygamy, there are always the favored wives with their kids" and the less favored wives with their kids, who all know they're less favored, but were stuck in that situation, hence all the fighting and resentment.
I'm sorry, but while these poofs make sense to you, we do not learn out new ideas from pasukim(verses), it is not part of our biblical exegesis. We believe that the entire Torah, even what the commentators say, was all given by G-d to the Jews at sinai, therefore, we do not add our own "chidushim" or new ideas. If there's something in the meforshim(commentators) or in the Talmud, then you may of course bring it up to assert your point, however drawing your OWN conclusions based on the language of an ENGLISH translation of Torah is very dangerous, incorrect, and not in sync with the kosher way of learning torah. Even the greatest rabbis do not learn new things out from verses that are not stated in one way or another by a midrash, gemara, mishnah, braita, etc..
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I know that R'Gershom was a greater sage because we have a teaching that states that with every generation, we lose a little bit of Torah or rather, we get further away from it, we are on a downward cycle, until Mosiach comes. Even in the times o the Gemara this was so, See Talmud Brachos chapter keitzad mevarchin for a strory about the differences between the "doros hareshonim" and the "doros achronim". To say that the Torah of Rabbi Kahane was even close to that of RG, is like saying that Rashi is like Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L, you can't compare a rishon with an acharei achron.
I am aware that there is a general rule that is taught in the Talmud that each successive generation is not as great as the previous one, but this is just a general rule speaking in generalities and is not to be interpreted in absolutes. There are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes a generation is better than it's previous generation, as you find several examples in the writings of the Prophets. Similarly, sometimes a Sage arises that is a throwback from previous generations in greatness (see the Talmud where it says a heavenly voice proclaimed that Hillel the little was worthy of the Ruach Hakodesh). I am saying that you can not speak in absolutes saying that no one was as great as R' Gershom in this generation, since I believe that R' Kahane was a throwback from previous generations and even R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought so as well and said that R' Kahane was a gilgul of a biblical warrior. If R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought that R' Kahane was on par with the Biblical warriors, so me thinking he was on par with Rabbenu Gershom is a moderate position.
R' Mordechai Eliyahu is not someone the general consensus paksens like, it would be like, lehavdil, deducig proof from neturei karta. I see your point, but we need a reliable consensus ofthe general community of poskim and gedolim to make a statement about a person being a gilgul, or not belonging in his generation. Everyone agreed that the Vilna Gaon belonged in the era of the Geonim(hence his title), but very few have said that R'Kahane was anywhere near that. He was right in his political ideas, of course, but to say that he was on par with a Rishon, seems dangerous to me. Even the Vilna Gaon was only placed on a level of the previous era, even HIM they didnt call as great as a Rishon! So, kal vechomer with R' Kahane, if we say that the sage the vilna Gaon, who memorized the entire talmud, was only placed a level ahead of his own era, and not at that of a rishon, then how can we say that r'kahane be placed many levels up, when he came after the gaon? see my point?
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I'm sorry, but while these poofs make sense to you, we do not learn out new ideas from pasukim(verses), it is not part of our biblical exegesis. We believe that the entire Torah, even what the commentators say, was all given by G-d to the Jews at sinai, therefore, we do not add our own "chidushim" or new ideas. If there's something in the meforshim(commentators) or in the Talmud, then you may of course bring it up to assert your point, however drawing your OWN conclusions based on the language of an ENGLISH translation of Torah is very dangerous, incorrect, and not in sync with the kosher way of learning torah.
Chakma13, English is my native language, and so of course I'm going to read and quote from the English translation of the Bible. If you want to respond to my points, based on specific facts, that's fine. But dismissing my entire post just because I used English translations is not an argument.
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I'm sorry, but while these poofs make sense to you, we do not learn out new ideas from pasukim(verses), it is not part of our biblical exegesis. We believe that the entire Torah, even what the commentators say, was all given by G-d to the Jews at sinai, therefore, we do not add our own "chidushim" or new ideas. If there's something in the meforshim(commentators) or in the Talmud, then you may of course bring it up to assert your point, however drawing your OWN conclusions based on the language of an ENGLISH translation of Torah is very dangerous, incorrect, and not in sync with the kosher way of learning torah.
Chakma13, English is my native language, and so of course I'm going to read and quote from the English translation of the Bible. If you want to respond to my points, based on specific facts, that's fine. But dismissing my entire post just because I used English translations is not an argument.
Lisa, it is a very valid argument, because the torah was written in hebrew, and it's intricacies can only be understood in said Hebrew. We have many advanced methods of biblical exegesis and a lot of them are dependent on the lashon(language, wording) of a given verse(i.e. gezera shava, binyan av). I mean, if we understood the bible in english terms, it would read "in the beginning g-d was created"! this is why it is absolutely necessary to learn hebrew to understand torah, the trnaslations are not meant o be a crutch permanently. My argument was not only based on your use of an english tanakh, but also due to the fact that to my knowledge, what you are saying is not found anywhere in the meforshim, talmud, or any other authoritative work. You simply cannot say something of legal ramifications without some basis in talmud, meforshim, or midrash. It just doesn't work that way, unless you want to practice the type of Judaism reform does..in that case, you can do the type of methodology you are employing
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I know that R'Gershom was a greater sage because we have a teaching that states that with every generation, we lose a little bit of Torah or rather, we get further away from it, we are on a downward cycle, until Mosiach comes. Even in the times o the Gemara this was so, See Talmud Brachos chapter keitzad mevarchin for a strory about the differences between the "doros hareshonim" and the "doros achronim". To say that the Torah of Rabbi Kahane was even close to that of RG, is like saying that Rashi is like Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L, you can't compare a rishon with an acharei achron.
I am aware that there is a general rule that is taught in the Talmud that each successive generation is not as great as the previous one, but this is just a general rule speaking in generalities and is not to be interpreted in absolutes. There are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes a generation is better than it's previous generation, as you find several examples in the writings of the Prophets. Similarly, sometimes a Sage arises that is a throwback from previous generations in greatness (see the Talmud where it says a heavenly voice proclaimed that Hillel the little was worthy of the Ruach Hakodesh). I am saying that you can not speak in absolutes saying that no one was as great as R' Gershom in this generation, since I believe that R' Kahane was a throwback from previous generations and even R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought so as well and said that R' Kahane was a gilgul of a biblical warrior. If R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought that R' Kahane was on par with the Biblical warriors, so me thinking he was on par with Rabbenu Gershom is a moderate position.
R' Mordechai Eliyahu is not someone the general consensus paksens like, it would be like, lehavdil, deducig proof from neturei karta. I see your point, but we need a reliable consensus ofthe general community of poskim and gedolim to make a statement about a person being a gilgul, or not belonging in his generation. Everyone agreed that the Vilna Gaon belonged in the era of the Geonim(hence his title), but very few have said that R'Kahane was anywhere near that. He was right in his political ideas, of course, but to say that he was on par with a Rishon, seems dangerous to me. Even the Vilna Gaon was only placed on a level of the previous era, even HIM they didnt call as great as a Rishon! So, kal vechomer with R' Kahane, if we say that the sage the vilna Gaon, who memorized the entire talmud, was only placed a level ahead of his own era, and not at that of a rishon, then how can we say that r'kahane be placed many levels up, when he came after the gaon? see my point?
LOL, you gotta change some of these yeshivish terms. We're not THAT smart :-) What's kal vechomer?
ha, sorry about that, it's the way i talk while thinking in torah terms. Kal vechomer is used in torah circles when debating laws. it means literally "light and heavy" and it dictates that if we can learn things out as follows: If a weak man can lift a 20-polund weight, then how much more so can a strong man do it? see the logic there? that's a kal vechomer in short. So what I was saying that if we do not even put the Vilna Gaon on a level more than one level above where he was, and since the vilna gaon memorized and knew the talmud by heart, then how much more so,and how obious is it that do we not put rabi kahane, who lived later, on a level higher than one above his level? I'll explain,
Vilna Gaon - lived in the era of the Achronim, the later rabbis. Now, he was placed on a level of the Gaonim, sages that were two levels above the time period he was living in.
R'Kahane - acharei acharon, the period after the acharonim. If we place him two levels above where he lived, he would be labeled a Rishon, as JDL4ever said, however, if we do this, we have to say that he was at least equal to the Vilna gaon. Now, did R'Kahane know the entire Talmud by heart? I don't think so.
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I know that R'Gershom was a greater sage because we have a teaching that states that with every generation, we lose a little bit of Torah or rather, we get further away from it, we are on a downward cycle, until Mosiach comes. Even in the times o the Gemara this was so, See Talmud Brachos chapter keitzad mevarchin for a strory about the differences between the "doros hareshonim" and the "doros achronim". To say that the Torah of Rabbi Kahane was even close to that of RG, is like saying that Rashi is like Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L, you can't compare a rishon with an acharei achron.
I am aware that there is a general rule that is taught in the Talmud that each successive generation is not as great as the previous one, but this is just a general rule speaking in generalities and is not to be interpreted in absolutes. There are exceptions to this rule. Sometimes a generation is better than it's previous generation, as you find several examples in the writings of the Prophets. Similarly, sometimes a Sage arises that is a throwback from previous generations in greatness (see the Talmud where it says a heavenly voice proclaimed that Hillel the little was worthy of the Ruach Hakodesh). I am saying that you can not speak in absolutes saying that no one was as great as R' Gershom in this generation, since I believe that R' Kahane was a throwback from previous generations and even R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought so as well and said that R' Kahane was a gilgul of a biblical warrior. If R' Mordechai Eliyahu thought that R' Kahane was on par with the Biblical warriors, so me thinking he was on par with Rabbenu Gershom is a moderate position.
R' Mordechai Eliyahu is not someone the general consensus paksens like, it would be like, lehavdil, deducig proof from neturei karta. I see your point, but we need a reliable consensus ofthe general community of poskim and gedolim to make a statement about a person being a gilgul, or not belonging in his generation. Everyone agreed that the Vilna Gaon belonged in the era of the Geonim(hence his title), but very few have said that R'Kahane was anywhere near that. He was right in his political ideas, of course, but to say that he was on par with a Rishon, seems dangerous to me. Even the Vilna Gaon was only placed on a level of the previous era, even HIM they didnt call as great as a Rishon! So, kal vechomer with R' Kahane, if we say that the sage the vilna Gaon, who memorized the entire talmud, was only placed a level ahead of his own era, and not at that of a rishon, then how can we say that r'kahane be placed many levels up, when he came after the gaon? see my point?
LOL, you gotta change some of these yeshivish terms. We're not THAT smart :-) What's kal vechomer?
ha, sorry about that, it's the way i talk while thinking in torah terms. Kal vechomer is used in torah circles when debating laws. it means literally "light and heavy" and it dictates that if we can learn things out as follows: If a weak man can lift a 20-polund weight, then how much more so can a strong man do it? see the logic there? that's a kal vechomer in short. So what I was saying that if we do not even put the Vilna Gaon on a level more than one level above where he was, and since the vilna gaon memorized and knew the talmud by heart, then how much more so,and how obious is it that do we not put rabi kahane, who lived later, on a level higher than one above his level? I'll explain,
Vilna Gaon - lived in the era of the Achronim, the later rabbis. Now, he was placed on a level of the Gaonim, sages that were two levels above the time period he was living in.
R'Kahane - acharei acharon, the period after the acharonim. If we place him two levels above where he lived, he would be labeled a Rishon, as JDL4ever said, however, if we do this, we have to say that he was at least equal to the Vilna gaon. Now, did R'Kahane know the entire Talmud by heart? I don't think so.
Oy, I made a mistake...they said that the Gaon was GREATER than a rishon, and as great as a Gaoninc rabbi..I wasn't thinking. But my point remains valid
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OK Mr. Wiseguy, how about this commentary from Yitzchok Adlerstein, Director, Jewish Studies Institute at Yeshiva of Los Angeles, Sydney M Irmas Chair in Jewish Law and Ethics at Loyola Law School?
http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/clinton.html
"The greatest moral beauty resides in the margins of the legal codes, in what the law neither prohibits nor demands. Not every legal license is meant to become typical practice. The law can sometimes allow, without approving. It can even allow, while still morally condemning.
The Bible permits polygamy. Almost without exception (and special circumstances attach to the exceptions), the sages of the Talmud never married more than one wife, while writing reams of law concerning the right of polygamy. The record of the Talmud is clear: a man should build a relationship with one wife. The law may permit him more, but the law does not necessarily describe the way things should be.
Greater people, or those to whom others look for guidance, are held in Jewish tradition to a higher standard. What might be legal, understandable, and even morally defensible for a lesser person, is objectionable in a more important one."
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OK Mr. Wiseguy, how about this commentary from Yitzchok Adlerstein, Director, Jewish Studies Institute at Yeshiva of Los Angeles, Sydney M Irmas Chair in Jewish Law and Ethics at Loyola Law School?
http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/clinton.html
"The greatest moral beauty resides in the margins of the legal codes, in what the law neither prohibits nor demands. Not every legal license is meant to become typical practice. The law can sometimes allow, without approving. It can even allow, while still morally condemning.
The Bible permits polygamy. Almost without exception (and special circumstances attach to the exceptions), the sages of the Talmud never married more than one wife, while writing reams of law concerning the right of polygamy. The record of the Talmud is clear: a man should build a relationship with one wife. The law may permit him more, but the law does not necessarily describe the way things should be.
Greater people, or those to whom others look for guidance, are held in Jewish tradition to a higher standard. What might be legal, understandable, and even morally defensible for a lesser person, is objectionable in a more important one."
Lisa, I never said you were wrong in saying that polygamy is not a good idea. I simply said that the way you went about proving that point was incorrect
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Lisa, I am with you in that I think polygamy wouldn't work in todays society. I think it would turn the jews centuries back.
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Thank you Downwithislam!
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me and my Rebbe used to joke with lots of wives you get lots of saros
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me and my Rebbe used to joke with lots of wives you get lots of saros
Pirkei avos, the talmud's aggadic source for ethical statements made by Chaza'l(chachamainu zechronam levracha, the sages of blessed memory), says "the more wives, the more witchcraft"
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According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.
One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.
My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.
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According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.
One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.
My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.
..the product of misinformation. The only time the Bait din(court) beats up the husband is if he was abusive to his wife and refuses to divorce her..they will also excummunicate him(cherem) if the need be.
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.
A woman having multiple husbands?? That goes against the 7 laws of noah..see hilchos arayos(laws of forbidden relationships), one of them is the prohibition of znus with an aishes ish(intercourse with a married woman), and the punishment for doing that is death.
I understand that. But that's their culture and they don't follow these laws. We can condemn for this if we want, but that would be engaging in ethnocentrism, at least according to my professor from the liberal state college I attended.
Her's the deal..all of humanity has had the chance at one point or another to follow th 7 laws of Noah, they are the universal law of mankind. I cannot care less about their culture if they do not follow these laws, they are just as responsible for their deeds as any other nation, and thy are not excused because "they have a different culture" yeah, a G-dless one that rejects the basics of moral decency. Since when do we have to acknowledge, and not condemn those who are damaging the world with their sins? How is ti "ethnocentric" for us to want to repair the world's sins? It's ridiculous, and it stems from the idea that people should be able to do whatever they want and not be reprimanded for doing it, and that is totally anti-torah.
It's not quite as simple as "people should be able to do whatever they want." Their traditions aren't stemmed from this type of belief. This is the tradition their culture practices. These polyandric marriages are pre-arranged, and the people getting married have no say over it. In one of the videos, a 13 year old girl was about to marry all of the men from another family, and she looked absolutely terrified. She certainly didn't look like she wanted to do this.
Ethnocentric is defined as a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own. So if we are mentioning the torah in this context, then we are viewing this culture from our own perspective. From their perspective, they never even heard of a torah any more than they have ever seen a lightbulb. I'm not advocating for this. I'm just explaining what it is.
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According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.
One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.
My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.
..the product of misinformation. The only time the Bait din(court) beats up the husband is if he was abusive to his wife and refuses to divorce her..they will also excummunicate him(cherem) if the need be.
Okay, I stand corrected. It's just something I heard about. If I remember correctly, I think there was an episode of the Sopranos where something like this was displayed.
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With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.
Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.
A woman having multiple husbands?? That goes against the 7 laws of noah..see hilchos arayos(laws of forbidden relationships), one of them is the prohibition of znus with an aishes ish(intercourse with a married woman), and the punishment for doing that is death.
I understand that. But that's their culture and they don't follow these laws. We can condemn for this if we want, but that would be engaging in ethnocentrism, at least according to my professor from the liberal state college I attended.
Her's the deal..all of humanity has had the chance at one point or another to follow th 7 laws of Noah, they are the universal law of mankind. I cannot care less about their culture if they do not follow these laws, they are just as responsible for their deeds as any other nation, and thy are not excused because "they have a different culture" yeah, a G-dless one that rejects the basics of moral decency. Since when do we have to acknowledge, and not condemn those who are damaging the world with their sins? How is ti "ethnocentric" for us to want to repair the world's sins? It's ridiculous, and it stems from the idea that people should be able to do whatever they want and not be reprimanded for doing it, and that is totally anti-torah.
It's not quite as simple as "people should be able to do whatever they want." Their traditions aren't stemmed from this type of belief. This is the tradition their culture practices. These polyandric marriages are pre-arranged, and the people getting married have no say over it. In one of the videos, a 13 year old girl was about to marry all of the men from another family, and she looked absolutely terrified. She certainly didn't look like she wanted to do this.
Ethnocentric is defined as a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own. So if we are mentioning the torah in this context, then we are viewing this culture from our own perspective. From their perspective, they never even heard of a torah any more than they have ever seen a lightbulb. I'm not advocating for this. I'm just explaining what it is.
As I said, the laws of noah are obligatory for all non-jews to follow, it doesnt matter if they like doing what they're doing, they'e still doing it regardless, and are held responsible for their inquities by G-d, to what degree, i do not know, given their ignorance
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According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.
One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.
My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.
..the product of misinformation. The only time the Bait din(court) beats up the husband is if he was abusive to his wife and refuses to divorce her..they will also excummunicate him(cherem) if the need be.
Okay, I stand corrected. It's just something I heard about. If I remember correctly, I think there was an episode of the Sopranos where something like this was displayed.
The media distorts Judaism and Jewish people to better suit the idea of an american jew automarticaly being an assimilated reformer, NEVER trust what the media says about the orthodox community, if yuo want to learn about orthodox jews, talk to them..
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I am also totally against polygammy. Do we really want to be like muslims popping out 60 kids per man with 20 different women. I do want jews to reproduce but we can't risk something like polygammy.
Can't risk it?
It's already happening. I know three people who have two wives each.
The Baba Sali had four wives, one on each floor of his house.
True, any woman who would agree to be a second wife is probably pretty submissive. That is true.
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I am also totally against polygammy. Do we really want to be like muslims popping out 60 kids per man with 20 different women. I do want jews to reproduce but we can't risk something like polygammy.
Can't risk it?
It's already happening. I know three people who have two wives each.
The Baba Sali had four wives, one on each floor of his house.
True, any woman who would agree to be a second wife is probably pretty submissive. That is true.
We don;'t pasken like a kabalist buddy, mekubalim do werid things..or at least they're weird to us
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Don't pasken like him.
Pasken like the Rambam who says in no uncertain terms that polygamy is permissable.
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Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that. Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?
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Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that. Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?
But think of the 'sister wives' to help do your hair, paint your toe nails and swap clothes with. ;)
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Lol no thanks.
I'll get on board if I can have a few husbands :laugh:.....guess I had better find one to start with :P
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Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that. Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?
But think of the 'sister wives' to help do your hair, paint your toe nails and swap clothes with. ;)
They actually enjoy that. Imagine, all six of your wives, getting togeter and conspiring how they can best gang up on you.
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Lol no thanks.
I'll get on board if I can have a few husbands :laugh:.....guess I had better find one to start with :P
That's interesting.
No man would ever 'share a woman', but women are perfectly capable (in some cases) of sharing a man.
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Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that. Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?
But think of the 'sister wives' to help do your hair, paint your toe nails and swap clothes with. ;)
They actually enjoy that. Imagine, all six of your wives, getting togeter and conspiring how they can best gang up on you.
Yeah, that's a thought.
Come home from work and find four with their heads full of stupid expectations from the Oprah show and all nagging you for not being romantic enough!
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Yeah I was kidding ::) I dont share.
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Yeah I was kidding ::) I dont share.
I know.
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Lol no thanks.
I'll get on board if I can have a few husbands :laugh:.....guess I had better find one to start with :P
I'm free, in case you'd like to add me to the bunch ;)
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Yeah I was kidding ::) I dont share.
What is it with you girls? You share clothes, makeup and DVDs but you're completely unreasonable when it comes to men..........Sheesh! ;)
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Chakma613, I am very troubled by your posts.
1. You belittle our great leader R' Meir Kahane Zs'l, and won't even consider the possibility that he was a throwback from a previous generation like R' Mordechai Eliyahu stated he was. Then you attempt back up your claim w/o answering my proof from the Talmud saying 2 Tanahs were worthy of Ruach Hakodesh, making them a throwback of 500 years. Then you say that the Rav can't be as great as the Vilna Goan since he didn't know the Talmud by heart. Well, the Vilna Goan was one step above the Rav in that respect but he did not free 1 million Russian Jews like the Rav did, or nearly throw the Arabs out of Israel starting the redemption.
2. You are making wrong statements about Judaism in your arrogance, and insulting our dear moderator Lisa by telling her lies. ANYONE CAN PROVIDE PROOF FROM THE TORAH, the oral law did not end with the Talmud and anyone may provide biblical proof to support their argument, and come up with new points not discovered previously and prove them even if it is not stated in the Talmud. Lisa provided a valid Torah argument that hinted that polygamy is permitted but having one wife is better. This nonsense you made up that if it is not stated in the Talmud, it's not true is complete bull excrement. Also nonsense that only Rabbis can say anything of value. Complete bull.
3. Your statement that the minority opinion of Rabbis don't count and only the majority opinion counts is foolishness. When the majority of Rabbis decided to turn their backs on their Russian Jewish brothers and R' Meir Kahane was the only one who was willing to do what needed to be done to free them, and they all called him a nutjob, you would be siding with these Rabbis wouldn't you. What if they all decide to support Shas and to give up Jerusalem to the Muslim Nazis? You would just blindly follow the majority opinion, which is a terrible thing to do and if you do this you are not living your life by Torah, but are just a blind sheep who understands nothing on their own.
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Yeah I was kidding ::) I dont share.
What is it with you girls? You share clothes, makeup and DVDs but you're completely unreasonable when it comes to men..........Sheesh! ;)
LMAO!!! I actually laughed out loud for this one! Good one, Newman! Very good!
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I dont share any of those things, women dont like me :laugh:
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I dont share any of those things, women dont like me :laugh:
Oh come now! How can that possibly be! They just don't know what they're missing out on! ;D
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I dont share any of those things, women dont like me :laugh:
Women can't stand you 'coz you're like the girl in the Beach Boys song 'Fun Fun Fun'. ;)
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I dont think they like my attitude, its too extreme for most of them:P
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I remember a poster from the Kahane forum who hasnt been on in a long time Chana4Kahane said she wouldnt have a problem with her husband marrying a second wife.
JDL, please this matter can between you and Chakma613 can be private.
Chakma613, the rule of following the majority is true when there is a fully functioning Sanhedrin, until that time that particular rule is not in force. We must all find a Rebbe and stick to his Derech, that is how we follow the words of the Chachamim in this day.
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Chakma613, I am very troubled by your posts.
1. You belittle our great leader R' Meir Kahane Zs'l, and won't even consider the possibility that he was a throwback from a previous generation like R' Mordechai Eliyahu stated he was. Then you attempt back up your claim w/o answering my proof from the Talmud saying 2 Tanahs were worthy of Ruach Hakodesh, making them a throwback of 500 years. Then you say that the Rav can't be as great as the Vilna Goan since he didn't know the Talmud by heart. Well, the Vilna Goan was one step above the Rav in that respect but he did not free 1 million Russian Jews like the Rav did, or nearly throw the Arabs out of Israel starting the redemption.
2. You are making wrong statements about Judaism in your arrogance, and insulting our dear moderator Lisa by telling her lies. ANYONE CAN PROVIDE PROOF FROM THE TORAH, the oral law did not end with the Talmud and anyone may provide biblical proof to support their argument, and come up with new points not discovered previously and prove them even if it is not stated in the Talmud. Lisa provided a valid Torah argument that hinted that polygamy is permitted but having one wife is better. This nonsense you made up that if it is not stated in the Talmud, it's not true is complete bull excrement. Also nonsense that only Rabbis can say anything of value. Complete bull.
3. Your statement that the minority opinion of Rabbis don't count and only the majority opinion counts is foolishness. When the majority of Rabbis decided to turn their backs on their Russian Jewish brothers and R' Meir Kahane was the only one who was willing to do what needed to be done to free them, and they all called him a nutjob, you would be siding with these Rabbis wouldn't you. What if they all decide to support Shas and to give up Jerusalem to the Muslim Nazis? You would just blindly follow the majority opinion, which is a terrible thing to do and if you do this you are not living your life by Torah, but are just a blind sheep who understands nothing on their own.
1. Just because I don't put the Rav on a spiritual level that makes him as great as the Vilna Gaon does not mean I am belittling him. I do not consider many people as great as the Gedolim. I agree that the Rav was a tzaddik who did a lot of good for the Jewish people, but to compare his torah stature to that of a leading authority, or to say what you are saying about him, is making him more than the political leader he was, it's overriding the authority of the leaders of the generation.
2. How am I being arrogant by telling Lia that she cannot adduce proof from a pasuk, when, to my knowledge, no such interpretation exists? Kahane never put his own spin on the pasukim, nor ddi he make chidushim, he quoted the words of those before him just as he should have, albeit it was in support of his own ideas, but that is acceptable. True, the oral law did not end with the Talmud, but the main idea is that if no one has said it before, and if there's no tradition from one's rebbe, it isn't Torah. "assur chadash min hatorah" - chasam sofer. Lisa's argument seemed to be alid, but it lacked the main part of any torah argument - received tradition, it was a chidush, and as we have seen, chidushim are not valid. What if someone were to say that "an eye for an eye" is to be taken literally, when Rashi says it ought not be? Should we believe them? after all, it SOUNDS logical, but that's just it..just as Rashi's inrterpretation was NOT based on logic, rather, based on the tradition from his rebbe, we can deduce that we ought not use our own understanding, especially when it comes to paskim which are so complex..Also, Lisa based her argument on an english understanding of the pasuk, how much worth is that? If we were to go by the english understanding of a pasuk, we wouldn't understand much at all. I respect Lisa greatly, but she made a mistake, we all make mistakes, and pointing them out so that others do not stumble is an obligation.
3. This is the most bizarre thing you've said yet. "mitzva lishmoa le'direoi chachamim" if your rebbe tells you that left is right, and right is left, you must believe him..we do not trust our own understanding, we go by what our rebbeim and what our torah scholars say, so, if the entire assembly of Gedolim were to say something, I would be compelled to follow it. The gedolim did not call R' Kahane a nutjob - many respected him greatly, and if you are going to question the authority, and by extension, the judgment of the gedolim, then you are in violation of 'mitzva lishmoa le'divrei chachamim". we have an accepted tradition that states that the majority rules in legal matters, you know that as well as I do. Face it - you're being arrogant if you say that you are greater than the gedolim, in whose merit the state of israel endures, and being quite individualistic too.
3.
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1. Rabbis may not be followed blindly especially if they tell you to do erroneous things and anyone who does is not only not absorbing any of the Torah they studied, but is better off not being born since what do you accomplish learning Torah but not absorbing it and applying it? Is this what G-d wants us to study the Torah for, to not follow it? Rabbi Kahane says it best and writes in Pirush Hamakabe on Samuel the following :
"And on this Chanah said "no my master ...", and our Rabbis explain (Bracot 31:): "You are not a master with regard to this thing, and Ruach Hakodesh is not resting on you since you accuse me of this thing." From hear we learn that a Jew is permitted to confront a leader, even if he is the leader of the generation, but must do so with respect. And here Eli admitted to his mistake, for immediately he said (17): "Go in peace, and the L-rd of Israel should give you your request."
He also says the following in Pirush Hamacabe on Shoftim:
"If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgement. then thou shalt arise , and go up to the place which the lord thy G-d shall choose. and thou shalt do according to the sentence ." (Parshat Shoftim, 17: 8-10)
We can learn out from the words "if there arise a matter too hard for thee.", that if you have a question regarding something you don't know, then you must ask. But if you are certain of the answer, do not ask, but rather make the halachic decision on your own. And it is unfortunate, that today many have become robots without common sense, who turn to the rebbe for everything, turning him into idol worship, so much so, that they disregard any other rabbi, and even turn heretical in disgracing other Torah scholars. And this seems to be what the Ibn Ezra is saying on the verse (11): " 'and you shall observe to do according to all that they inform thee' regarding something too hard for you".
"Be careful, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your G-d, which he made with you, and you make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, which the Lord thy G-d has commanded you." (Parshat Vaetchanan, 4:23)
This verse is difficult to understand, for it should say at the end, ".which the Lord thy G-d has forbidden you." It seems that the interpretation is like this: Do not make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, including of things which G-d commanded us. In other words, don't make idol worship out of things which you admire, such as the Holy Temple, Sefer Torah, or a great rabbi, for this too, is idol worship. This is why the verse continues, "for the Lord is a consuming fire, a jealous G-d". In other words, worship must be exclusive to G-d only; and He will not tolerate any competition or partnership in worship. .....
There is a sad and dangerous phenomenon today, and it is: the growing tendency of students relying completely on the rav, or the "gadol", going after him like a blind man in the dark, not deviating right or left -- without the willingness to think for themselves. This personality worship essentially prevents the student from independent thought, and is dangerous for the student and for Judaism. Instead of striving to serve and worship G-d, they accept upon themselves the service of the rebbe, and if he says "white" and tomorrow "black", the student will follow him, and will boast that he obeys his rebbe and adheres to the mitzvah of "not deviating from the right or left". Indeed, this is a dangerous and bitter phenomenon, which turns the Jew from a thinking individual to a robot.
2. I repeat myself again that you are completely wrong that one may not make a new Chidush in the Torah. Completely wrong. R' Kahane, Rambam, Rashi, the Talmud, and all the Rabbis made there own interpretations of verses in the Torah and not everything they said was transmitted through their parents or Rabbis, even if you have a fantasy that this is indeed the case. Some things were transmitted, other things they say are their unique ideas based on other commentaries and other times they made up their own unique interpretations. Even if someone makes a Chidush on the english translation it may be correct, if you happen to prove it wrong by showing the translation was not accurate then fine, but don't knock it until you disprove it. I have proof of this as well in Pirkei D'rabbi Eliazer if you don't believe that the Rabbis made up their own unique ideas on the Torah.
3. I am not upset that you don't accept my view of the Rav. I respect your opinion about R' Kahane not being a throwback from a previous generation since you know very little about him. My problem is that you don't respect my opinion that he was a throwback and mock my viewpoint by saying it's ridiculous to even consider him on par with the Vilna Goan, which is insulting to the Rav. You may not agree with me but you must at least respect my opinion considering how great R' Kahane Zs'l was and not mock it.
4. Most of the "Gedolim" thought that R' Kahane Zs'l was crazy. See how few Gedolim actually gave him even the most mild and underhanded compliments after he died. Only R' Mordechai Eliyahu and the Lubovitcher Rebbe actually respected him and supported him. If the majority of the Gedolim had their way, no Russian Jews would have never been freed until the collapse of the Soviet Union (which at that time no one predicted that such a superpower would collapse so for all they know a million Russian Jews would have been lost forever).
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According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.
One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.
My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.
..the product of misinformation. The only time the Bait din(court) beats up the husband is if he was abusive to his wife and refuses to divorce her..they will also excummunicate him(cherem) if the need be.
Okay, I stand corrected. It's just something I heard about. If I remember correctly, I think there was an episode of the Sopranos where something like this was displayed.
The media distorts Judaism and Jewish people to better suit the idea of an american jew automarticaly being an assimilated reformer, NEVER trust what the media says about the orthodox community, if yuo want to learn about orthodox jews, talk to them..
The first time I heard of this concept, it was not from the media. It was from a Jewish listserv I was on where there were orthodox Jews that were discussing and advocating this concept.
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...but the main idea is that if no one has said it before, and if there's no tradition from one's rebbe, it isn't Torah. "assur chadash min hatorah" - chasam sofer. Lisa's argument seemed to be valid, but it lacked the main part of any torah argument - received tradition, it was a chidush, and as we have seen, chidushim are not valid.
So let me get this straight. I'm not allowed to have and express an opinion unless the same thing has been stated by some other rabbi in the past?
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life!
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Exactly Lisa, he actually thinks this way, but it makes no sense. Plus I have outright proof that he is wrong.
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This is what's wrong with many of the Yeshivas today as I stated earlier (which some posters attacked me for). See for your own eyes the nonsense they brainwash young Jews to believe in, to be blind sheep without being able to think for themselves and without actually understanding the Torah but instead being a blind follower of what their "Rabbis" tell them to do. See for your own eyes, I want denominator96 and his friend to see this.
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This might only apply to us goyim but when you blindly accept everything one rabbi or minister says, you can find yourself taking a cup of coolaid from Jim Jones or end up burning in Waco.
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1. Rabbis may not be followed blindly especially if they tell you to do erroneous things and anyone who does is not only not absorbing any of the Torah they studied, but is better off not being born since what do you accomplish learning Torah but not absorbing it and applying it? Is this what G-d wants us to study the Torah for, to not follow it? Rabbi Kahane says it best and writes in Pirush Hamakabe on Samuel the following :
"And on this Chanah said "no my master ...", and our Rabbis explain (Bracot 31:): "You are not a master with regard to this thing, and Ruach Hakodesh is not resting on you since you accuse me of this thing." From hear we learn that a Jew is permitted to confront a leader, even if he is the leader of the generation, but must do so with respect. And here Eli admitted to his mistake, for immediately he said (17): "Go in peace, and the L-rd of Israel should give you your request."
He also says the following in Pirush Hamacabe on Shoftim:
"If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgement. then thou shalt arise , and go up to the place which the lord thy G-d shall choose. and thou shalt do according to the sentence ." (Parshat Shoftim, 17: 8-10)
We can learn out from the words "if there arise a matter too hard for thee.", that if you have a question regarding something you don't know, then you must ask. But if you are certain of the answer, do not ask, but rather make the halachic decision on your own. And it is unfortunate, that today many have become robots without common sense, who turn to the rebbe for everything, turning him into idol worship, so much so, that they disregard any other rabbi, and even turn heretical in disgracing other Torah scholars. And this seems to be what the Ibn Ezra is saying on the verse (11): " 'and you shall observe to do according to all that they inform thee' regarding something too hard for you".
"Be careful, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your G-d, which he made with you, and you make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, which the Lord thy G-d has commanded you." (Parshat Vaetchanan, 4:23)
This verse is difficult to understand, for it should say at the end, ".which the Lord thy G-d has forbidden you." It seems that the interpretation is like this: Do not make a carved idol, or the likeness of anything, including of things which G-d commanded us. In other words, don't make idol worship out of things which you admire, such as the Holy Temple, Sefer Torah, or a great rabbi, for this too, is idol worship. This is why the verse continues, "for the Lord is a consuming fire, a jealous G-d". In other words, worship must be exclusive to G-d only; and He will not tolerate any competition or partnership in worship. .....
There is a sad and dangerous phenomenon today, and it is: the growing tendency of students relying completely on the rav, or the "gadol", going after him like a blind man in the dark, not deviating right or left -- without the willingness to think for themselves. This personality worship essentially prevents the student from independent thought, and is dangerous for the student and for Judaism. Instead of striving to serve and worship G-d, they accept upon themselves the service of the rebbe, and if he says "white" and tomorrow "black", the student will follow him, and will boast that he obeys his rebbe and adheres to the mitzvah of "not deviating from the right or left". Indeed, this is a dangerous and bitter phenomenon, which turns the Jew from a thinking individual to a robot.
2. I repeat myself again that you are completely wrong that one may not make a new Chidush in the Torah. Completely wrong. R' Kahane, Rambam, Rashi, the Talmud, and all the Rabbis made there own interpretations of verses in the Torah and not everything they said was transmitted through their parents or Rabbis, even if you have a fantasy that this is indeed the case. Some things were transmitted, other things they say are their unique ideas based on other commentaries and other times they made up their own unique interpretations. Even if someone makes a Chidush on the english translation it may be correct, if you happen to prove it wrong by showing the translation was not accurate then fine, but don't knock it until you disprove it. I have proof of this as well in Pirkei D'rabbi Eliazer if you don't believe that the Rabbis made up their own unique ideas on the Torah.
3. I am not upset that you don't accept my view of the Rav. I respect your opinion about R' Kahane not being a throwback from a previous generation since you know very little about him. My problem is that you don't respect my opinion that he was a throwback and mock my viewpoint by saying it's ridiculous to even consider him on par with the Vilna Goan, which is insulting to the Rav. You may not agree with me but you must at least respect my opinion considering how great R' Kahane Zs'l was and not mock it.
4. Most of the "Gedolim" thought that R' Kahane Zs'l was crazy. See how few Gedolim actually gave him even the most mild and underhanded compliments after he died. Only R' Mordechai Eliyahu and the Lubovitcher Rebbe actually gave him major complements.
We can only attempt to confront our rebbes, and especially gedolim, once we have learned a great deal of Torah, until then, voicing dissent based on our own meager understanding, is in violation of the dictum "mitzvah lishmoa ledivrei chachamim", an answer to which, you still have not given. It seems to me that you are disparaging the Gedolim, and you are forcing me to respect an opinion that is not in sync with the general consensus - something I will not do. I see Rabbi Kahane as a political figure for the most part, the term "rabbi" is thrown around a lot today - unless a person has smicha from a really chashuv rav, it doesn't mean much other than his ability to pasken shailos. I concede that one may make chidushim on the torah BUT, not for halachos, only for things like hashkofa, and even that's a stretch..but to pasken a shailah about something of a halachik issue, based on a chidush, is ridculous. I did not mean to imply that we should worship the gedolim, but denying their scholarship, and their competency, is simply wrong, and it is also a violation of the mitzvah to honor a talmud chacham, something that you are not doing by exclusively following the views of one rabbi. I can certainly knock a halachik decision made by an english translation, no one credible would accept such a view; the words of the torah are extremely intricate and have many layers, we cannot understand them much less draw conclusions based on them, if they are not understood in the original hebrew. The Gedolim who you so scornfully mock, are the authority of the Jewish people, and much as you would like to think of Judaism as individualistic - it isn't. We can question, indeed questioning is healthy, but we do not follow our own decisions. What Lisa did is exactly what the Conservative movement does, they base their halachik decisions on their own interpretation of the text. Her "pshat", is nothing more than an understanding based on no prior information - pshat is always based on a competent authority.
You seem to think that the Rav was the only authority on Torah and that the entire frum community is wrong because they didn't follow him - throughout history we have had sages that have led us, but to say that we only should follow the ideas of one person over the gedolim, is not anything torah-dik in the least.
Furthermore, what Lisa said showed that she did not understand my position: I was speaking in terms of Halacha, not in philosophy, we do not make up halachos like you did, it simply is not done. You cannot form your own opinion on Halacha, it would be like saying that al the rabbis are wrong and that you yourself, as ole person, is correct, sound familiar? It should, the karaites say something similar, they say that the rabbis are wrong ands that the torah is theirs to manipulate. If that's were the Kahanist movement is going..I fear fro its survival.
On a final note, I never said to follow the rabbis if they are incorrect, but show me a time when the gedolim were in fact, incorrect? they aren't in terms of halacha. It's hard for some people to realize how arrogant it is to think of themselves as beig equal to someone who spends their entire life meditating over the Torah.
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This is what's wrong with many of the Yeshivas today as I stated earlier (which some posters attacked me for). See for your own eyes the nonsense they brainwash young Jews to believe in, to be blind sheep without being able to think for themselves and without actually understanding the Torah but instead being a blind follower of what their "Rabbis" tell them to do. See for your own eyes, I want denominator96 and his friend to see this.
Ok, so all yeshivos are wrong, and you, a solitary figure, are correct? That makes a lot of sense...the Roshei Yeshivos know a heck of a lot more than we do, and to say differenlty is an insult to them
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MANY of the Yeshivas, not all of them. Who said anything about myself? I'm nobody.
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You knock me for insulting Gedolim, you just spit in R' Kahane's face with your remark that he wasn't a real Rabbi. I hope I'm reading your comment the wrong way.
It seems to me that you are disparaging the Gedolim, and you are forcing me to respect an opinion that is not in sync with the general consensus - something I will not do. I see Rabbi Kahane as a political figure for the most part, the term "rabbi" is thrown around a lot today - unless a person has smicha from a really chashuv rav, it doesn't mean much other than his ability to pasken shailos
I am happy that we have cleared this up. As far as Halachah (daily Jewish Law and customs) is concerned, one can not make their own Halacha based only on their unique view of a verse, but it must be based on previous customs and previously transmitted Halachos. I agree with this summary of what you stated but only with regard to Halachah since Halachah is transmitted very closely from generation to generation. But with regard to everything else, one may make their own unique interpuitations of the Torah. Lisa did not make an Halachic remark as far as I know so I still don't understand your problem with her post, so you should appoligize to her.
So far, I am the only one really quoting Torah here and backing up my words with Torah as well as the words of R' Kahane which quote the Torah. So if you have a problem with something I say, give me a Torah argument. Until then you are merely saying mere words without substance. As for your accusation that I only follow R' Kahane and blindly follow everything he says, that is incorrect. I am a Kahanist, but I follow the Rav because I have studied his positions and agree with them from a Torah perspective. Plus, I don't follow everything he says as you claim. On a few occasions my Torah view point is different than the Rav and I follow other Rabbis on these few occasions where I honestly don't see the Torah the same way as the Rav does.
I'm sure you know of the Bar Kochba revolt where the majority of the Rabbis said that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach including the great R' Akiva, so don't tell me that the majority of Rabbis can not be wrong on an issue my friend.
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JDL4EVER, I agree with you totally. I think the bigger problem with yeshivas today is the fact that almost all of them besides some lubavitch yeshivos, treat rich children far better than they do the poor. It is an insane epidemic fueled by the rabbis desire for money and contributions. I have witnessed this firsthand so I know it to be true. I personally know a bunch of guys who are totally not religious because of this. Unfortunately the yeshiva world is a total dissapointment producing many young men who are willing to fight for nothing as long as they can live in comfort here. I feel that the only way lakewood and the brooklyn yeshiva guys would support Israel is if they had some financial incentive to do so. I remember back when I was in 6th grade in yeshiva, I got in trouble along with 2 other kids for disturbing the class or some nonsense like that. We all were brought to the office to meet with the principal. Me and one of the other kids who was brought in come from middle class homes. The third guy was from a very wealthy family. He was a large donater to the yeshiva. He was separated from the group of three, brought to another room where pizza had been ordered in for him. I almost couldn't believe my eyes. Only many years later did I convice my parents that the story was true. They are no longer surprised. I will never forget this story and it shows what prostitutes many yeshiva heads are.
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I know my last post was a little off topic but it is true. It stems from the overall corrupt nature of the yeshiva system and the rosh yeshivos in general. They condition little children and ultimately big ones to follow them blindly. It is convenient for them for it to be this way. This is why the products of the yeshivas are the way we see them. This is why some people who come on here get all excited when we question their rabbeim. Lets not forget they are people as well and that they are mortal. They are not g-d.
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Downwithislam, I believe your story and I got even a more provocative one. My father was a middle class guy with several children and wanted to send one of us to this Yeshiva who charged an obscene sum of money for tuition, but he couldn't afford the whole tuition so he asked them if they can give him a little discount. They refused to give him any discount and said "if you can't afford it then send him to public school". Luckily they found a cheaper Yeshiva. But this just shows you how messed up some of these Yeshivas are. Some are corrupted by money. Others are just outright insane and brainwash kids into being blind sheep w/o thinking for yourself as the one I went to for High School was. They start right away telling you how stupid and pathetic you are and how the Gedolim are G-d and must be followed blindly, then they tell you your parents are stupid, only the Yeshiva has the correct path to G-d and to not listen to your parents. Then when you ask them something they can't give an answer to they say "I have Daas Torah" so listen to me. I'd like to give them some "Daas Tuchas" with my foot in their Tuchas. ;)
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I agree with you completely Downwithislam.
Although many rabbis most likely mean well, they are human, just like us. While we can admire their knowledge, that's no excuse to follow, and idolize them like mindless robots. Judaism is a religion, not a cult.
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JDL4EVER, I know of many cases like yours. The yeshivos are simply a business which is unfortunate. Many of the yeshivas own nursing homes as well. This is well documented. Their excuse is that the money brought in helps give children a jewish education. What BS. It is simply so the yeshiva heads can line their pockets with dough. I know of many cases like the one jdl4ever mentioned. I know of cases where the yeshiva will accept the child for a reduced tuition but will treat him like crap. It just pisses the hell out of me that yeshivos don't treat everyone fairly. I can't handle it. I used to feel so helpless when I was in yeshiva when I saw such frightening double standards. Rich kids can literally burn a building down on the yeshiva's grounds and get away with it while a poor child can breathe at the wrong time and get thrown out. How sad.
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I have two stories for you guys.
First off, my parents and relatives are all Iranian Jews, many of whom used to live in Queens. Some of them sent their kids to a certain Yeshiva, which I won't name here. Anyway, this Yeshiva was run by religious fanatics, and as a result, these kids refused to eat in their parents homes. They insisted that their parents dunk all their dishes/silverware in a mikvah before they would eat with them. Of course, the parents were outraged.
Now for the second story. There was this Iranian Jewish man who really liked this young Iranian Jewish religious woman. He was head over heels in love with her. At first, the woman was not interested, as he was much less observant. But the man persisted, and agreed to become more religious, and the two ended up marrying and having a son.
So a few years later, on a Friday afternoon during the summer, at around 2:00 p.m., the wife and son went out to run some errands. They were probably gone about two hours, during which time the husband repeatedly called the house. (I guess she didn't have a cell phone with her.) Anyway, the mother and son returned home, when the husband called again for the umpteenth time. The husband demanded to know where the two had been. When the wife told him she was running errands with their son, the husband went crazy.
He said to her "Did you ever stop to consider what would happen if the two of you got into a car accident?"
The wife was like "Uh, no. What are you talking about?" To which the husband replied:
"My son would have ended up breaking Shabbath!"
As a result of this, (and most likely similar arguments) the woman ended up becoming less religious than the husband.
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Their is a famous incident which happened at the dinner of a very respected Far rockaway located jewish girls school dinner. This is a very religious orthodox jewish girls school. A few years ago the owners of THE NATIONAL WHOLESALE LIQUIDATORS, some chain store owned by jews, were honored at this schools dinner. The wife of the honoree came to the dinner in very revealing clothing. She was wearing a very short skirt and she had on a sleeveless top which showed lots of cleavage. As all of you that are familiar with the way orthodox women dress would know that this is outlawed in the jewish world. Many people found this offensive and the yeshiva was criticised. The excuse was that they helped jewish children get an education.
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Downwithislam, I've also heard that the conditions of these nursing homes you refer to is deplorable.
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Downwithislam, I believe your story and I got even a more provocative one. My father was a middle class guy with several children and wanted to send one of us to this Yeshiva who charged an obscene sum of money for tuition, but he couldn't afford the whole tuition so he asked them if they can give him a little discount. They refused to give him any discount and said "if you can't afford it then send him to public school". Luckily they found a cheaper Yeshiva. But this just shows you how messed up some of these Yeshivas are. Some are corrupted by money. Others are just outright insane and brainwash kids into being blind sheep w/o thinking for yourself as the one I went to for High School was. They start right away telling you how stupid and pathetic you are and how the Gedolim are G-d and must be followed blindly, then they tell you your parents are stupid, only the Yeshiva has the correct path to G-d and to not listen to your parents. Then when you ask them something they can't give an answer to they say "I have Daas Torah" so listen to me. I'd like to give them some "Daas Tuchas" with my foot in their Tuchas. ;)
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There are 70 'faces' to torahno yeshiva contests that, however I fiormly believe in da'as torah, evidently you don't whihc makes you in sync with the Modern Orthodox view - something I know the Rav disagreed with. Anyway, in many cases, one's parents are not stupid, but simply wrong. The commandment to honor one's father and mother is overruled when they tell their child to break torah, or want them to in any way shape or form. To say that an institution of torah learning - something divine - is corupt, is total lashon hara h even if you don't name names. Not to mention that it is chillul hashem - you may very well turn people off to the Yeshiva world with statements like that. You say you'd like to hurt a rabbi now, just because youy don't agree with the idea of da'as torah? how much sense does that make? I realize you're kidding, but it isn't funny at all
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Lisa in response to your first story, I am experiencing the same exact story with my 17 year old younger brother. Only difference is that I will name the yeshiva. It is yeshiva Darchei Torah in Far Rockaway NY. My brother was the nicest guy in the world until his 10th grade rabbi made him crazy. My brother thinks that because he learns torah that everyone must serve him and that he is the reason the world exists. His rabbi told this to his class in school and my brother comes home expecting that this be implemented. He demands to always check what my mother cooks not trusting that its kosher enough for him. My mother only cooks kosher. My brother always loved chaims shows and he always laughed at the shvartza impersonations chaim did. Now my brother thinks chaim is a beast and lowlife and just calls him a looser. My brother also thinks any jew who is not religious can be abused cheated and lied to as they are not human. His rabbi in school told them that because the 3 israeli soldiers who were kidnapped weren't religious that he and none of the "bachurim" should car less about them. He also said "they will pay for their sins." I have not talked to my brother in 7 or 8 months simply because he no longer recognized me as human. He walks around with his white shirt making fun of everyone who is not religious. It is a shame that this snakepit yeshiva in far rockaway ruined my brother like this. When I look at him, I am thankful that I am not like him. My mother just thinks he is temporarily confused but I think it is worse than that. The white shirt yeshivas need to be avoided like a plague. I know lubavitchers wear white shirts and are certainly not in this category but almost all other yeshiva folks are. It is a shame. I should add that I discussed the issue of my brother with JUDEANONCAPTA and he provided comforting words. He is a prime example that their are exceptions to the rule and that not all yeshiva people fit in this category.
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I have two stories for you guys.
First off, my parents and relatives are all Iranian Jews, many of whom used to live in Queens. Some of them sent their kids to a certain Yeshiva, which I won't name here. Anyway, this Yeshiva was run by religious fanatics, and as a result, these kids refused to eat in their parents homes. They insisted that their parents dunk all their dishes/silverware in a mikvah before they would eat with them. Of course, the parents were outraged.
Now for the second story. There was this Iranian Jewish man who really liked this young Iranian Jewish religious woman. He was head over heels in love with her. At first, the woman was not interested, as he was much less observant. But the man persisted, and agreed to become more religious, and the two ended up marrying and having a son.
So a few years later, on a Friday afternoon during the summer, at around 2:00 p.m., the wife and son went out to run some errands. They were probably gone about two hours, during which time the husband repeatedly called the house. (I guess she didn't have a cell phone with her.) Anyway, the mother and son returned home, when the husband called again for the umpteenth time. The husband demanded to know where the two had been. When the wife told him she was running errands with their son, the husband went crazy.
He said to her "Did you ever stop to consider what would happen if the two of you got into a car accident?"
The wife was like "Uh, no. What are you talking about?" To which the husband replied:
"My son would have ended up breaking Shabbath!"
As a result of this, (and most likely similar arguments) the woman ended up becoming less religious than the husband.
..eating food from non-kashered utensils would be eating non-kosher food. That student was completely justified in wanting his parents to kasher their utensils - however, it has to be done in the most respetful way possible. You also are ranting about an isolated incident, and a comment made by an obviously torah-ignorant person(viz a viz the stroy about the son breaking shabbos)
Also, not eating in a non-kosher home is hardly being a religious fanatic - kashrus is, like any other law, uncompromisable. As I said though, the way he handed it may have been wrong, but the Yeshiva who toldm him that he coud not eat food from their plates was 100% correct, however he could probably eat rom a paper plate on a different surface than the table with treif on it, if he uses plastic silverware(just my own idea, NOT halacha lema'aseh)
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Chakma, if you sin against g-d he forgives, if you sin against another man, you must get forgiveness from that person before g-d forgives you.
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Chakma, the parents of these students were already kosher. But the Yeshiva told the students that their parents homes were not kosher enough for them.
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You knock me for insulting Gedolim, you just spit in R' Kahane's face with your remark that he wasn't a real Rabbi. I hope I'm reading your comment the wrong way.
It seems to me that you are disparaging the Gedolim, and you are forcing me to respect an opinion that is not in sync with the general consensus - something I will not do. I see Rabbi Kahane as a political figure for the most part, the term "rabbi" is thrown around a lot today - unless a person has smicha from a really chashuv rav, it doesn't mean much other than his ability to pasken shailos
I am happy that we have cleared this up. As far as Halachah (daily Jewish Law and customs) is concerned, one can not make their own Halacha based only on their unique view of a verse, but it must be based on previous customs and previously transmitted Halachos. I agree with this summary of what you stated but only with regard to Halachah since Halachah is transmitted very closely from generation to generation. But with regard to everything else, one may make their own unique interpuitations of the Torah. Lisa did not make an Halachic remark as far as I know so I still don't understand your problem with her post, so you should appoligize to her.
So far, I am the only one really quoting Torah here and backing up my words with Torah as well as the words of R' Kahane which quote the Torah. So if you have a problem with something I say, give me a Torah argument. Until then you are merely saying mere words without substance. As for your accusation that I only follow R' Kahane and blindly follow everything he says, that is incorrect. I am a Kahanist, but I follow the Rav because I have studied his positions and agree with them from a Torah perspective. Plus, I don't follow everything he says as you claim. On a few occasions my Torah view point is different than the Rav and I follow other Rabbis on these few occasions where I honestly don't see the Torah the same way as the Rav does.
I'm sure you know of the Bar Kochba revolt where the majority of the Rabbis said that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach including the great R' Akiva, so don't tell me that the majority of Rabbis can not be wrong on an issue my friend.
You were indeed reading my comment wrong. I was not saying that the rav was a 'fake' rabbi - his smicha was kosher, and as I said, I respect him greatly, but not for his lumdus; I like his politcal platform, but I don't agree with his perush, or at least with what I've read of it.
What you said about halacha was exactly what I was trying to say to Lisa, and I think we had a bit of a misunderstanding. I just did not want others to not understand the halachik process which could have easily been done if one read what Lisa wrote. BUt you are right, in maters other than halacha, we can certainly draw conclusions from torah, provided that they are approved of by a competent rav(i.e., the chasam sofer's statement of "assur chadash min hatorah", this was a hashkofic saying for the most part based on a pasuk).
I gavce you a torah argument for why we need to folow our rebbeim - iq uoted the Talmud i saying that if a rebbe says to his student to think that eft is rigth and right is left he must follow him, I also quoted the principle of mitzvah leshmoa ledivrei chachomim, and to add to that list, it says in pirkei avos "asai lekha rav", accept upon yourself a teacher. These are my arguments - I'd appreciate an answer.
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Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.
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Chakma, the parents of these students were already kosher. But the Yeshiva told the students that their parents homes were not kosher enough for them.
Just how did they define Kosher? If they did not immerse their utensils as the shulcan aruch says to do, they were not being kosher, even if they were using kosher food. Now, if it was an issue of something open to discussion, such as cholov yisroel in america(which there is a lot of controversy over), then I can understand your anger at the yeshiva.
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Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.
No, non-religious jews are human beings and we have a responsibility to show them ahavas yisroel, however we do not have to respect their ideas when they are starkly opposed to Torah.
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Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah. Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct. Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link. They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs. I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews. If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you. I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests. Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water. Call me crazy, but there is a major problem. R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.
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Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.
destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?
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Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah. Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct. Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link. They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs. I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews. If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you. I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests. Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water. Call me crazy, but there is a major problem. R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.
I personally know of a wealthy viznitzer chassid who will not eat from the ou or certain other hashgachas because they are not good enough, he also only eats cholov yisroel. He was recently busted trying to pick up a prostitute. What a chilul hashem.
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Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.
destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?
If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.
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Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah. Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct. Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link. They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs. I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews. If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you. I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests. Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water. Call me crazy, but there is a major problem. R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.
Regarding the bugs in the new york water supply, I don't know of any authority who contests it, if there is a posek who says differently, I'd be interested to know why. not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief(unless it's mevateled by something 60x its volume, just to clarify). I dont like the standard argument used for daas torah either, but i do think that rabbis possess it, however they should explain themselves if they are prompted.
Rabbis never, to my knowledge, PASKEN based on daas torah, they do however base their ideas on the hashkofic level on said daas torah, which is fine with me. Halacha is a link from generation to generation as you said, but I know of no issues to which a posek paskened based on daas torah.
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Chakma613, the Das Torah thing that I'm referring to is the excuse ignorent fake Rabbis use when they are wrong and don't have any valid Torah argument to give you so they say "I have Daas Torah so I am right" and expect you to accept their point of view simply because they claim to have Dass Torah. Real Jews and real Rabbis will answer your questions/concerns/arguments with Torah arguments citing Torah sources to prove that they are correct. Secondly, the basis of Judaism is the transmission of Torah from generation to generation. Many of the Yeshivas including the one I went to do not respect the basis of Judaism and sever this link. They simply tell you that they know the right path and your parents are not as educated as them so you should follow what they say and ignore your parents, their advice and their customs. I'm not talking about where your parents are not religious, I'm talking about people such as myself that come from a fine line of religious Jews. If you think I'm crazy for saying these people will burn in hell for ruining our religion, then good for you. I have met 2 people from my school who were Baal Teshuvas who came there fully observant to learn more about Judaism and who came out completely not religious, eating at Mcdonalds or on the verge of being athiests. Plus my own relative went to one of these brainwashing places and won't eat at my grandmother's house who is a Chassidish fully Orthodox woman from a line of such people, who is even from Europe, since she isn't Kosher enough for him for not filtering the water. Call me crazy, but there is a major problem. R' Kahane was someone who was a REAL Rabbi, who backed up everything he said with Torah, and never used the pathetic Daas Torah excuse or the "Gedolim know better even if we don't understand them" cop out.
I personally know of a wealthy viznitzer chassid who will not eat from the ou or certain other hashgachas because they are not good enough, he also only eats cholov yisroel. He was recently busted trying to pick up a prostitute. What a chilul hashem.
then he is not a chassid :)
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Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.
destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?
If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.
self-loathing extremism? what are you talking about? I think you are projectig your bad experience on multiple yeshivos
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Chakma this crap about the water being infested with bugs is BS. This is just another money making scheme by various rabbis in business with filter companies. Why was the water good enough for great Rabbis Like moshe Feinstein? Why do a few prostitute patronizing rabbis start a big uproar about bugs in the water?
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Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.
destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?
If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.
self-loathing extremism? what are you talking about? I think you are projectig your bad experience on multiple yeshivos
Chakma, the fact that many of the large white shirt yeshivas such as lakewood are anti zionist speaks for itself.
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I gavce you a torah argument for why we need to folow our rebbeim - iq uoted the Talmud i saying that if a rebbe says to his student to think that eft is rigth and right is left he must follow him,
There is no proof from there. If you accept upon yourself a teacher who is a real teacher as they were at the Talmudic time period; meaning one who always backs up his statements with Torah upon questioning and proves himself to be correct time and time again; and he tells you something w/o an explanation that appears to you as being incorrect, since he has a Chazaka of being correct before, you must accept what he says as the truth. But you are permitted to question him at your first opportunity and have him either prove himself correct or admit that he was wrong, as R' Meir Kahane says and I have brought you the Torah proof that he brings to support his position.
I also quoted the principle of mitzvah leshmoa ledivrei chachomim, and to add to that list, it says in pirkei avos "asai lekha rav", accept upon yourself a teacher. These are my arguments - I'd appreciate an answer.
Accepting a teacher upon yourself does not have anything to do with this argument. You must accept a teacher that you trust and follow him. If you accept a teacher and he acts like many of these fanatical teachers, saying things against the Torah and not answering your objections then you may reject them as a teacher. Also Mitzvah Leshmoa Ledivrei chachomim refers to Chachamim who are real Chachamim, not learned Rabbis who make obvious mistakes that are rejected by the Rabbis of previous generations.
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JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?
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JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?
Because they are crazy fanatics. Chachma613 says not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief
and with this nonsense being taught, you understand why they are so crazy. Chachma, I don't filter my water and neither did R' Moshe Feinstein, your grandparents or the Rambam for that matter. Are we all drinking non Kosher water? Really, I want to know if you think the Rambam drank non Kosher water.
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Just how did they define Kosher? If they did not immerse their utensils as the shulcan aruch says to do, they were not being kosher, even if they were using kosher food. Now, if it was an issue of something open to discussion, such as cholov yisroel in america(which there is a lot of controversy over), then I can understand your anger at the yeshiva.
Chakma613, these people keep kosher homes with two different sets of dishes, go to the Synagogue every every Saturday, observe Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Succot, Passover and other holidays. So the argument about them not really being kosher is irrelevant.
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JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?
Because they are crazy fanatics. Chachma613 says not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief
and with this nonsense being taught, you understand why they are so crazy. Chachma, I don't filter my water and neither did R' Moshe Feinstein, your grandparents or the Rambam for that matter. Are we all drinking non Kosher water? Really, I want to know if you think the Rambam drank non Kosher water.
JDL4EVER, well said. I also doubt Rabbi Kahane or Chaim Ben Pesach filter their water and both of these jews have sacrificed themselves for the jewish cause more that all the rabbis of torah vodath and lakewood combined.
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Yeah Chakma, can you do me a favor and explain to me why great rabbis over the years drank non kosher water? If water was non kosher, I am sure it would of been forbidden years ago like non kosher animals.
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Yeah Chakma, can you do me a favor and explain to me why great rabbis over the years drank non kosher water? If water was non kosher, I am sure it would of been forbidden years ago like non kosher animals.
It just shows how little you know about the issue - it's a recent one, and to answr the Q about rav moshe feinstein, the issue to my knowledge was not a concern then, i think there was sme change in the water supply. also it was only a concern for new york if i remember right
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Chakma this crap about the water being infested with bugs is BS. This is just another money making scheme by various rabbis in business with filter companies. Why was the water good enough for great Rabbis Like moshe Feinstein? Why do a few prostitute patronizing rabbis start a big uproar about bugs in the water?
havei dan es kol ha'adam lechaf zhus...try it sometime
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Lisa I believe it is impossible to convince these people of anything once they have been destroyed by these types of rabbis. They do not recognize non religious jews as human beings therefore they will not listen.
destroyed? just how is learning torah in a respected yeshiva being destroyed?
If the yeshiva brainwashes you into self loathing extremism and teaches you to be a selfish piece of drek than it is destroying you.
self-loathing extremism? what are you talking about? I think you are projectig your bad experience on multiple yeshivos
Chakma, the fact that many of the large white shirt yeshivas such as lakewood are anti zionist speaks for itself.
large white shirt yeshiva? so just because they dont wear kippot srugot makes them anti-zionist? i happen to respect anyone who learns torah, there's more to torah learning then just zionism - even kahane didnt only write about zionism. also, they are mostly non-zionist, only a minority that I know of are really against israel
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Just how did they define Kosher? If they did not immerse their utensils as the shulcan aruch says to do, they were not being kosher, even if they were using kosher food. Now, if it was an issue of something open to discussion, such as cholov yisroel in america(which there is a lot of controversy over), then I can understand your anger at the yeshiva.
Chakma613, these people keep kosher homes with two different sets of dishes, go to the Synagogue every every Saturday, observe Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Succot, Passover and other holidays. So the argument about them not really being kosher is irrelevant.
going to shul onc a week is not the issue here, besides, we daven 3 times a day, not only on shabbos. the isue was not in one area of observance, as opposed to the possibility of a kashrus problem, i dont know their sutuation, but i now it has little to do whether or not they keep other mitzvos
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I gavce you a torah argument for why we need to folow our rebbeim - iq uoted the Talmud i saying that if a rebbe says to his student to think that eft is rigth and right is left he must follow him,
There is no proof from there. If you accept upon yourself a teacher who is a real teacher as they were at the Talmudic time period; meaning one who always backs up his statements with Torah upon questioning and proves himself to be correct time and time again; and he tells you something w/o an explanation that appears to you as being incorrect, since he has a Chazaka of being correct before, you must accept what he says as the truth. But you are permitted to question him at your first opportunity and have him either prove himself correct or admit that he was wrong, as R' Meir Kahane says and I have brought you the Torah proof that he brings to support his position.
I also quoted the principle of mitzvah leshmoa ledivrei chachomim, and to add to that list, it says in pirkei avos "asai lekha rav", accept upon yourself a teacher. These are my arguments - I'd appreciate an answer.
Accepting a teacher upon yourself does not have anything to do with this argument. You must accept a teacher that you trust and follow him. If you accept a teacher and he acts like many of these fanatical teachers, saying things against the Torah and not answering your objections then you may reject them as a teacher. Also Mitzvah Leshmoa Ledivrei chachomim refers to Chachamim who are real Chachamim, not learned Rabbis who make obvious mistakes that are rejected by the Rabbis of previous generations.
1. A torah observant person has a chezkas kashrus to learn from if he is a known talmud chacham.
2. Just what do you mean by fanatical? I should hope you're not calling the non-kahanist frum jews 'fanatical' just because they don't agree with your hashkofa
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JDL4EVER, why do you believe yeshivas such as lakewood and Torah vodath are so anti zionist?
Because they are crazy fanatics. Chachma613 says not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief
and with this nonsense being taught, you understand why they are so crazy. Chachma, I don't filter my water and neither did R' Moshe Feinstein, your grandparents or the Rambam for that matter. Are we all drinking non Kosher water? Really, I want to know if you think the Rambam drank non Kosher water.
JDL4EVER, well said. I also doubt Rabbi Kahane or Chaim Ben Pesach filter their water and both of these jews have sacrificed themselves for the jewish cause more that all the rabbis of torah vodath and lakewood combined.
One thing has nothing to do with another - also, the lakewood crowd supports the world with their learning, whether you see it that way or not, it doesn't change the magnitude of their mitzvos and the merit that they are achieving through said learning. You're entitled to disagree with YTV and lakewood, but to say that they do not contribute to the jewish community is wrong
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1. Any Jew that is truly learning Torah but is being supported by himself or by his parents willfully (meaning he didn't ague with his parents and make them support him when they didn't want to) until he becomes a Rabbi is contributing to the Jewish world spiritually by their learning.
2. I agree with the Rambam's words that anyone who is learning off charity is trampling on the Torah, is sinning and will burn in hell. I also agree with our Sages who write in Pirkai Avot that Torah without a livelihood causes sin and you will end up burning in hell. The only exception who I don't think are sinning by learning w/o working themselves is if they are a big Torah Scholar and they have someone who volunteers to support them.
3. I think that Kahanism for the most part is the correct Torah Path but I don't hate non Kahanist Jews as you say I do. I will debate them though, and so far no one has been able to debate me. I think that fanatical Jews that break the chain of tradition and teach fanatical beliefs are evil. Like being anti Zionist (meaning Israel should be abandoned to save 1 Jewish life as my Principle stated), saying that the only correct path is one who learns all day, saying that Jews who work for a living are ignorent, saying that Rabbis must be worshiped and followed blindly regardless of the correctness of their actions, saying that not religious Jews don't matter, picking up prostitutes at night while learning during the day with a Stramuel, causing your fellow Jews to sin by teaching them fanaticism in your Yeshiva, making people leave Judaism by teaching fanaticism etc. Saying that water has to be filtered in order to be Kosher is bordering on insanity as well but I won't call it evil, I call it stupid.
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1. Any Jew that is truly learning Torah but is being supported by himself or by his parents willfully (meaning he didn't ague with his parents and make them support him when they didn't want to) until he becomes a Rabbi is contributing to the Jewish world spiritually by their learning.
2. I agree with the Rambam's words that anyone who is learning off charity is trampling on the Torah, is sinning and will burn in hell. I also agree with our Sages who write in Pirkai Avot that Torah without a livelihood causes sin and you will end up burning in hell. The only exception who I don't think are sinning by learning w/o working themselves is if they are a big Torah Scholar and they have someone who volunteers to support them.
3. I think that Kahanism for the most part is the correct Torah Path but I don't hate non Kahanist Jews as you say I do. I will debate them though, and so far no one has been able to debate me. I think that fanatical Jews that break the chain of tradition and teach fanatical beliefs are evil. Like being anti Zionist (meaning Israel should be abandoned to save 1 Jewish life as my Principle stated), saying that the only correct path is one who learns all day, saying that Jews who work for a living are ignorent, saying that Rabbis must be worshiped and followed blindly regardless of the correctness of their actions, saying that not religious Jews don't matter, picking up prostitutes at night while learning during the day with a Stramuel, causing your fellow Jews to sin by teaching them fanaticism in your Yeshiva, making people leave Judaism by teaching fanaticism etc. Saying that water has to be filtered in order to be Kosher is bordering on insanity as well but I won't call it evil, I call it stupid.
RE1: we finally agree on something.
RE2: Supporting a talmud chacham can hardly be seen as charity. In addition, abandoning torah study for the sake of worldly occupation is talked about in the Gemara(masekta ta'anis), see the story about Reb Yochanan and Ilfa...the mala'achim wanted to kill them because they wanted to earn a living rather than study.
RE3:What you conisder fanaticism is what the rabbanim paskened the halacha as, if you want to debate with them go ahead. What they teach at my yeshiva is torah, not fanaticism and had it not been for them, I'd still be a secular Jew. Also, as I said before, there are 70 paths to torah, all are equal; you cannot say that Kahanism is the only way, it may be for you, but not every Jew is the same. I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but not many gedolim supported secular zionism, they did in the beginning, but it was always a touchy subject. Now, religious zionism is a different story, but they are sadly the minority in Israel, so I will talk for now about the secular zionists. I can certainly understand the charedi opposition to secular zionism, and had I been around when the early secular zionists were around, I would have been against them too. However now that religious zionism is a reality, it should be embraced and taught in mainstream yeshivos(which it is, for the most part), but we must respect members of the frum community who wish to not be zionistic, we can debate with them and such, but being a non-zionist does not equal being evil, to say that would mean that almost every Gadol at the time of 1948 was evil
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1. Mishna beats the Gemarah.
2. What about the story of R' Shimon Bar Yochai and his son in the cave. They were punished by G-d for not understanding that Torah needs an occupation by G-d sending them back into the cave until they learned their lesson. Plus what about the Talmud saying that there were those who practiced like one Rabbi who said Torah Im Derech Eretz and there were those who practiced like another Rabbi who said study all day and G-d will support you and all were successful with the first approach and few were successful with the last approach. I am not familiar with your story, elaborate.
Most Gedolim in 1948 were wrong on the issue of Zionism but were not evil. Notice what I said before about what I mean by anti zionism; That if you say that Israel should cease to exist if it means saving one Jewish life then you are evil.
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another mindless ranting against the Torah and Religious Jews by Shinuy and Meritz. ::)
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another mindless ranting against the Torah and Religious Jews by Shinuy and Meritz. ::)
Who's Shinuy and Meritz?
Guess I'm wasting my time here. I try to teach people real Torah by actually using Torah proofs in the style of the Rav and all I get is insults. So few of my proofs have even been discussed. I'm talking to a brick wall.
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1. Mishna beats the Gemarah.
2. What about the story of R' Shimon Bar Yochai and his son in the cave. They were punished by G-d for not understanding that Torah needs an occupation by G-d sending them back into the cave until they learned their lesson. Plus what about the Talmud saying that there were those who practiced like one Rabbi who said Torah Im Derech Eretz and there were those who practiced like another Rabbi who said study all day and G-d will support you and all were successful with the first approach and few were successful with the last approach. I am not familiar with your story, elaborate.
Most Gedolim in 1948 were wrong on the issue of Zionism but were not evil. Notice what I said. I meant that if you say that Israel should cease to exist if it means saving one Jewish life then you are evil.
The Gemara quote you are referring to is in brachos, perek keitzad mevarchin, in regards to Rashbi and one of his colleagues, I forget who exactly, but i am not advocating learning all day, however focusing on work the way some people do leads to lessening their learning. The story I brought up goes as follow: Reb Yochanan and Ilfa were studying torah together, they said to themselves that they should take on an occupation, fulfilling the verse in the Torah that says "lo yeheyeh becka evyon" among you there shall be no destitute", since they were very poor at the time. They sat beside a dilapidated wall(note: rashi says that had they known that the wall was dilapidated they would not have sat under it, since you cant put yourself in danger), anyway, they were eating bread, and two mala'achim came to them, RZ'Yochanan overheard what they were saying. One said to the other that they should kill the scholars, because they foresake life in Olam Haba for the temporary life in this world. the other angel said not to kill them, since one of them was approaching his hour of greatness. R'Yochanan overheard this conversation, and he asked Ilfa if he ddi too, Ilfa said he did not, so R'Yochanan took that to mean that he was meant to hear this, and that his hour of greatness was approaching, so R'Yochanan returned to the study of torah, he said to Ilfa that he wanted to fulfill the verse "and the poor will never cease from inside the land"..the story goes on to recount the appointmenrt of reb yochanan as the head of the yeshiva, and they said to ilfsa when he retunred that if he had been there, they would have made him(ilfsa) the head instead of R'yochanan..so Ilfa went out on a ship's mast to prove that he was greater than reb yochanan, he said that he would let himself drown if he could not deonstrate the basis of a braisa from a mishnah from the braisa edition of Oshaya and reb chiyah...then an old man quoted a braisa about what happens when a person says to the beis din that the should give a shekel a week to the trustee of his estate, and then it says that if it is appropriate fro the to have a Sela we give them a sela, but if he said takah give them only one shekel, we davka give them a shekel, now, if he said to the regarding the other inheritors "if they die let others inherit the remains" whether he said give them a shekel or give them davka a shekel, we we give them davka a shekl, then Ilfa says that the author of this braisa is R"Meir who says that we must fulfill the wishes of the dead.
Anyway, to say that most gedolim were wrong, is an issue we had already discussed, and I woud like to avoid arguments about that, let's just agree to disagree.
Regarding the isue I did not yet address about Bar Kochba, it IS possible for the gedolim to make mistakes, but they reversed themselves, didn't they? the gedolim have not reversed themselves for the ost part about the issue of secular zionism
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The Gedolim reversing the decree or not reversing it is irrelevant to the point that the Gedolim may make mistakes. I don't understand why you keep bringing up irrelevant information. As for the story you brought up in the Talmud (thank you for the effort of writing the story for me as I was unfamiliar), this requires further study since either the Rabbis seem to disagree on this issue (which we already know that they do but the Halacha is Torah Im Derech Eretz as the Mishna states and the Talmud implies) or we are not understanding the story properly, perhaps the one who went out to work to make a living was working too hard and neglecting his study slightly which is considered a sin for a man on his level.
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Chakma, if you sin against g-d he forgives, if you sin against another man, you must get forgiveness from that person before g-d forgives you.
;D You should only listin to your own words. ::) , didnt Chaim tell you like 2 weeks ago to stop with your rantings?
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The issue with Bar Kochba and the majority of Gedolim being wronge-
its Mentioned in Rav Kahane's Ore Haryon (dont have it in front of me right now) (and other places) One of the chapters starts off as "bar Kochba or Bar Kuzivz" - and its basically explained that Bar Kochba was a potential Messiah. At the time the Rabbis werent wronge about Bar Kochba, but becuase of the mistakes that he and the people had done, he didnt finish being the Messiah and died. - until he became arrogant and until the Jews were united and didnt fight amoung themselves the Rabbis backed him, but then he became arrogant saying that G-d shouldnt help him or go against him, also then wrongfully accusing the saintly Rab Eliezer of treason and killing him by kicking him. Also the infighting of the Jews expecially the sin of LASHIN HARA and BASELESS HATRED made the Hachamim decide that the war will now be lost and they had to perserve the tradition.
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another mindless ranting against the Torah and Religious Jews by Shinuy and Meritz. ::)
Who's Shinuy and Meritz?
Guess I'm wasting my time here. I try to teach people real Torah by actually using Torah proofs in the style of the Rav and all I get is insults. So few of my proofs have even been discussed. I'm talking to a brick wall.
JDL4EVER, I know how you feel. Sometimes you can work long and hard providing proofs and backing up what you say only for people to ignore everything. Nobody is shui or Meretz on here as they literally support Israel having Sharia law which I haven't seen any of us support. We are only pointing out the flaws of certain jews in hope they will become better.
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Has anybody been watching "Big Love"?
Despite the fact that it's on HBO, it's a politically incorrect examination of Mormon polygamy. It's brilliantly written - there hasn't been a single dull episode. In fact, I would go so far as to say that in some ways, it's even better than "The Sopranos".
Last year, "Big Love" gave Utah polygamy such a good name that the FBI felt compelled to put Warren Jeffs on its Top Ten Most Wanted List, just to counteract the positive publicity.
In one "Big Love" episode, the Mormon fundamentalist preacher, writing from his compound to protest the Defense of Marriage Act (as it applies to polygamy), had this to say:
"When you call me a pervert, you're calling Abraham a pervert, you're calling Moses a pervert, you're calling David a pervert and you're calling Solomon a pervert."
And what did the great Scottish poet Robert Burns say? "The wisest man who ever lived, he dearly loved the lasses, oh!"
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Has anybody been watching "Big Love"?
Despite the fact that it's on HBO, it's a politically incorrect examination of Mormon polygamy. It's brilliantly written - there hasn't been a single dull episode. In fact, I would go so far as to say that in some ways, it's even better than "The Sopranos".
Last year, "Big Love" gave Utah polygamy such a good name that the FBI felt compelled to put Warren Jeffs on its Top Ten Most Wanted List, just to counteract the positive publicity.
In one "Big Love" episode, the Mormon fundamentalist preacher, writing from his compound to protest the Defense of Marriage Act (as it applies to polygamy), had this to say:
"When you call me a pervert, you're calling Abraham a pervert, you're calling Moses a pervert, you're calling David a pervert and you're calling Solomon a pervert."
And what did the great Scottish poet Robert Burns say? "The wisest man who ever lived, he dearly loved the lasses, oh!"
Nothing is better than the SOPRANOS
ITS THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH
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Nothing is better than the SOPRANOS
ITS THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH
It was the greatest show on earth. Now it sleeps with the fishes. And the last season was just plain lazy.
Have you seen "Big Love"?
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The Gedolim reversing the decree or not reversing it is irrelevant to the point that the Gedolim may make mistakes. I don't understand why you keep bringing up irrelevant information. As for the story you brought up in the Talmud (thank you for the effort of writing the story for me as I was unfamiliar), this requires further study since either the Rabbis seem to disagree on this issue (which we already know that they do but the Halacha is Torah Im Derech Eretz as the Mishna states and the Talmud implies) or we are not understanding the story properly, perhaps the one who went out to work to make a living was working too hard and neglecting his study slightly which is considered a sin for a man on his level.
I find it relevant, since it shows that the gedolim don't stand by their words if they are wrong(see mishnah eduyos, perek shammai oimer, for a discussion about why a person should not stand by his words if he is proven wrong). "the halacha is torah im derech eretz" I don't know what sort of halacha classes you've been to, but they were obviously NOT including "talmud torah keneged culam", also, you quote Rav Hirsch, NOT the Mishnah. The Mishnah says "yofeh talmud torah im dereh eretz" now, we can interpret derech eretz as an occupation, or we can inerpret it as many other things, it's one of the most gratly contested things in Mishnah to this day, and you are quoating it to suit your own ends.
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Nothing is better than the SOPRANOS
ITS THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH
It was the greatest show on earth. Now it sleeps with the fishes. And the last season was just plain lazy.
Have you seen "Big Love"?
If its one of those crappy my wife and kids spin off then i don't think i ever will
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Nothing is better than the SOPRANOS
ITS THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH
It was the greatest show on earth. Now it sleeps with the fishes. And the last season was just plain lazy.
Have you seen "Big Love"?
If its one of those crappy my wife and kids spin off then i don't think i ever will
I don't get you. What "my wife and kids spin off"?
Anyway, it's not crappy. It's great. In fact, HBO just moved it into the old "Sopranos" time slot, to take advantage of the word-of-mouth.
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I find it relevant, since it shows that the gedolim don't stand by their words if they are wrong(see mishnah eduyos, perek shammai oimer, for a discussion about why a person should not stand by his words if he is proven wrong). "the halacha is torah im derech eretz" I don't know what sort of halacha classes you've been to, but they were obviously NOT including "talmud torah keneged culam", also, you quote Rav Hirsch, NOT the Mishnah. The Mishnah says "yofeh talmud torah im dereh eretz" now, we can interpret derech eretz as an occupation, or we can inerpret it as many other things, it's one of the most gratly contested things in Mishnah to this day, and you are quoating it to suit your own ends.
You don't make sense. Suppose a Gadol Hador is proven wrong by let's say contradicting both the Tanakh, the Torah and the Rambam's interpretation of the Tanach and there is not a source in the ancient commentaries for what he is saying, and his actions lead to disaster, then you think that the Rabbi can not be wrong since if he was wrong, he would change positions? This is not logical thinking, I'm sorry. This might surprise you but many Rabbis are wrong and never admit to their mistakes in our generation.
As far as me making up what the Mishna means, Rashi says that it means worldly occupation, and the simple reading of the Mishna means worldly occupation since if it meant learning torah it would say learning torah, plus the Rambam also reads this as worldly occupation as did every other scholar of ancient times. This reinterpetation of the Mishna is nonsense of recent onset and has no basis in real Judaism. I even asked my grandfather what he learned from tradition on this verse and he said that it means worldly occupation. Some of these Rabbis try to break the chain of tradition and reinvent Judaism in their own image but it is not my problem. I follow tradition.
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Nothing is better than the SOPRANOS
ITS THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH
It was the greatest show on earth. Now it sleeps with the fishes. And the last season was just plain lazy.
Have you seen "Big Love"?
Luckily in australia we only got arena where that show isn't shown
Well thats good because here in australia we only have arena to view those programs
If its one of those crappy my wife and kids spin off then i don't think i ever will
I don't get you. What "my wife and kids spin off"?
Anyway, it's not crappy. It's great. In fact, HBO just moved it into the old "Sopranos" time slot, to take advantage of the word-of-mouth.
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I find it relevant, since it shows that the gedolim don't stand by their words if they are wrong(see mishnah eduyos, perek shammai oimer, for a discussion about why a person should not stand by his words if he is proven wrong). "the halacha is torah im derech eretz" I don't know what sort of halacha classes you've been to, but they were obviously NOT including "talmud torah keneged culam", also, you quote Rav Hirsch, NOT the Mishnah. The Mishnah says "yofeh talmud torah im dereh eretz" now, we can interpret derech eretz as an occupation, or we can inerpret it as many other things, it's one of the most gratly contested things in Mishnah to this day, and you are quoating it to suit your own ends.
You don't make sense. Suppose a Gadol Hador is proven wrong by let's say contradicting both the Tanakh, the Torah and the Rambam's interpretation of the Tanach and there is not a source in the ancient commentaries for what he is saying, and his actions lead to disaster, then you think that the Rabbi can not be wrong since if he was wrong, he would change positions? This is not logical thinking, I'm sorry. This might surprise you but many Rabbis are wrong and never admit to their mistakes in our generation.
As far as me making up what the Mishna means, Rashi says that it means worldly occupation, and the simple reading of the Mishna means worldly occupation since if it meant learning torah it would say learning torah, plus the Rambam also reads this as worldly occupation as did every other scholar of ancient times. This reinterpetation of the Mishna is nonsense of recent onset and has no basis in real Judaism. I even asked my grandfather what he learned from tradition on this verse and he said that it means worldly occupation. Some of these Rabbis try to break the chain of tradition and reinvent Judaism in their own image but it is not my problem. I follow tradition.
I can think of no such case where a Gadol is wrong because he rules something of his own accord, and does not base his understanding on something preexistant. The other interpretations of the mishnah are nothing new, il try and find the sources to back that up. i never said it meant learning, but it could mean other things. Rashi was one rishon - there were several others
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Lol no thanks.
I'll get on board if I can have a few husbands :laugh:.....guess I had better find one to start with :P
That's interesting.
No man would ever 'share a woman', but women are perfectly capable (in some cases) of sharing a man.
What cases would that be?
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another mindless ranting against the Torah and Religious Jews by Shinuy and Meritz. ::)
Who's Shinuy and Meritz?
Guess I'm wasting my time here. I try to teach people real Torah by actually using Torah proofs in the style of the Rav and all I get is insults. So few of my proofs have even been discussed. I'm talking to a brick wall.
Nobody is shui or Meretz on here as they literally support Israel having Sharia law which I haven't seen any of us support. We are only pointing out the flaws of certain jews in hope they will become better.
Stop lying. They do not support Sharia law. But all they do is trash Judaism day and night and pretty much say many of the things that are said here. They want a secular "democratic" society without Torah and religious Jews, even without Muslims.
anyway maybe sharia law would be better then having a complete anti-religious (Jewish) government. (not opinion just idea).
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anyway maybe sharia law would be better then having a complete anti-religious (Jewish) government. (not opinion just idea).
What are you? On drugs or something?!?!?
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anyway maybe sharia law would be better then having a complete anti-religious (Jewish) government. (not opinion just idea).
What are you? On drugs or something?!?!?
who wrote that??
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I didnt say for sure, but our islamic/ nazi enemies are after our bodies and the demons/secular anti-religious are after our souls. Our body is temporary, or soul is intended to be eternal- do you see the extent to the damage each enemy is able to inflict?
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Tsvi wrote that part about Sharia being preferable to a non-religious govt.
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Tsvi wrote that part about Sharia being preferable to a non-religious govt.
I didnt say non-religious, nor did I say for sure, I said having a totally anti-religious. And comparing the effects that different enemies can have upon Jews.
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Tsvi wrote that part about Sharia being preferable to a non-religious govt.
I really am not versed in sharia but the few things i have heard lead me to believe that this is not something that non muslims can live with. Nothing and I mean nothing could ever be worse than living in a government that goes by sharia law. Its not a religious government thats needed it religious people and not muslim ones either.
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The fact is that a lot of Ancient Israelite cultural things are coming back in Israel.
Many Hilltop Youth people are putting on Ancient Israelite garb. Tekheleth is making a resurgence.
Polygamy just may come back as well. Who knows?
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I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim.
Hmmm...so why can't we Ahskenazim just decide to follow the Sephardic community's customs? Mmmm?
Are Sephardim really DIFFERENT Jews than we are? Of course not. It's a matter of deciding which Rabbi's advice, rulings and decrees to follow.
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I do not know where you get the idea that we(Ashken. Jews), do not have to follow the decree anymore, but until a leading posek(such as R' Eliyahsiv), in the Ashk. community decides that we no longer have to follow it, we must, we cannot take torah into our own hands and be our own poskim.
Hmmm...so why can't we Ahskenazim just decide to follow the Sephardic community's customs? Mmmm?
Are Sephardim really DIFFERENT Jews than we are? Of course not. It's a matter of deciding which Rabbi's advice, rulings and decrees to follow.
Wow, now this is a laugh - achdus is great, but minhagim are important too, and if done right are not divisive. Plus in America it is not an issue since we have a principle of dina malchusa dina - the law of the land is the law for the jews to follow when it does not override a torah law, so polygamy for either ashkenazim or sephardim is tlotaly out of the question, since no one says it's a mitzvah to have multiple wives.
Also, ashkenazic minhagim are just as deep and beautiful as sephardi ones are, you should learn more about them before you say things like "well let's all just drop these sily divisions"
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There is no such thing as Ashkenazim and Sefardim.
Only Jews in Germany must follow Ashkenazi minhagim and only Jews in Spain must follow Sefardi minhagim. Everyone else follow the minhag in the place where they live.
And if there is no minhag, they follow the simple halacha only.
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Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that. Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?
That would be pretty bad. But then again the Bible doesn't allow all polygamy, just polygyny. So we don't have to deal with that.
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Chakma613, the rule of following the majority is true when there is a fully functioning Sanhedrin, until that time that particular rule is not in force. We must all find a Rebbe and stick to his Derech, that is how we follow the words of the Chachamim in this day.
So true.
It's too bad most religious Jews don't realize that.
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...but the main idea is that if no one has said it before, and if there's no tradition from one's rebbe, it isn't Torah. "assur chadash min hatorah" - chasam sofer. Lisa's argument seemed to be valid, but it lacked the main part of any torah argument - received tradition, it was a chidush, and as we have seen, chidushim are not valid.
So let me get this straight. I'm not allowed to have and express an opinion unless the same thing has been stated by some other rabbi in the past?
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life!
Yes, it is pretty ridiculous. But alot of people say the same thing.
It has no basis in Torah, but people say it anyway.
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This is what's wrong with many of the Yeshivas today as I stated earlier (which some posters attacked me for). See for your own eyes the nonsense they brainwash young Jews to believe in, to be blind sheep without being able to think for themselves and without actually understanding the Torah but instead being a blind follower of what their "Rabbis" tell them to do. See for your own eyes, I want denominator96 and his friend to see this.
Ok, so all yeshivos are wrong, and you, a solitary figure, are correct? That makes a lot of sense...the Roshei Yeshivos know a heck of a lot more than we do, and to say differenlty is an insult to them
Yes, it is an insult to them.
And for alot of them, it is a well deserved insult.
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I know my last post was a little off topic but it is true. It stems from the overall corrupt nature of the yeshiva system and the rosh yeshivos in general. They condition little children and ultimately big ones to follow them blindly. It is convenient for them for it to be this way. This is why the products of the yeshivas are the way we see them. This is why some people who come on here get all excited when we question their rabbeim. Lets not forget they are people as well and that they are mortal. They are not g-d.
True, and in the Talmudh, we find many cases of students disagreeing with their teachers. Resh Lakish and Rabbi Yohanan, Rava and Rabbah, etc.
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Yeah Chakma, can you do me a favor and explain to me why great rabbis over the years drank non kosher water? If water was non kosher, I am sure it would of been forbidden years ago like non kosher animals.
Ironically, it was the Chassidim who had the level heads on this one.
Most Chassidishe Poskim said that it is ridiculous. The water is not trief and the cephalapods are either not there or microscopic.
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Why was the water good enough for great Rabbis Like moshe Feinstein?
Because Rav Moshe didn't realize that one must not eat miscroscopic animals.
I wonder what the treif water people think about yogurt?
The are millions of trief miscroscopic bacteria in yogurt.
Wait ten years and they'll outlaw yogurt too.
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Regarding the bugs in the new york water supply, I don't know of any authority who contests it, if there is a posek who says differently, I'd be interested to know why. not filtering the water makes the food made with it trief(unless it's mevateled by something 60x its volume, just to clarify). I dont like the standard argument used for daas torah either, but i do think that rabbis possess it, however they should explain themselves if they are prompted.
Most Chassidish poskim dismissed the treif water idea out of hand.
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Anyway, to say that most gedolim were wrong, is an issue we had already discussed, and I woud like to avoid arguments about that, let's just agree to disagree.
Regarding the isue I did not yet address about Bar Kochba, it IS possible for the gedolim to make mistakes, but they reversed themselves, didn't they? the gedolim have not reversed themselves for the ost part about the issue of secular zionism
Most Gedolim told Jews before WWII to stay in Europe.
That was NOT A MISTAKE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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I find it relevant, since it shows that the gedolim don't stand by their words if they are wrong(see mishnah eduyos, perek shammai oimer, for a discussion about why a person should not stand by his words if he is proven wrong). "the halacha is torah im derech eretz" I don't know what sort of halacha classes you've been to, but they were obviously NOT including "talmud torah keneged culam", also, you quote Rav Hirsch, NOT the Mishnah. The Mishnah says "yofeh talmud torah im dereh eretz" now, we can interpret derech eretz as an occupation, or we can inerpret it as many other things, it's one of the most gratly contested things in Mishnah to this day, and you are quoating it to suit your own ends.
You don't make sense. Suppose a Gadol Hador is proven wrong by let's say contradicting both the Tanakh, the Torah and the Rambam's interpretation of the Tanach and there is not a source in the ancient commentaries for what he is saying, and his actions lead to disaster, then you think that the Rabbi can not be wrong since if he was wrong, he would change positions? This is not logical thinking, I'm sorry. This might surprise you but many Rabbis are wrong and never admit to their mistakes in our generation.
As far as me making up what the Mishna means, Rashi says that it means worldly occupation, and the simple reading of the Mishna means worldly occupation since if it meant learning torah it would say learning torah, plus the Rambam also reads this as worldly occupation as did every other scholar of ancient times. This reinterpetation of the Mishna is nonsense of recent onset and has no basis in real Judaism. I even asked my grandfather what he learned from tradition on this verse and he said that it means worldly occupation. Some of these Rabbis try to break the chain of tradition and reinvent Judaism in their own image but it is not my problem. I follow tradition.
I can think of no such case where a Gadol is wrong because he rules something of his own accord, and does not base his understanding on something preexistant. The other interpretations of the mishnah are nothing new, il try and find the sources to back that up. i never said it meant learning, but it could mean other things. Rashi was one rishon - there were several others
Ovadia Yosef's psak on giving up land is the most perfect example of a Rav basing his psak on his own opinion when all of the Tanakh, Talmud, Rishonim and Achronim disagree with him.
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another mindless ranting against the Torah and Religious Jews by Shinuy and Meritz. ::)
Who's Shinuy and Meritz?
Guess I'm wasting my time here. I try to teach people real Torah by actually using Torah proofs in the style of the Rav and all I get is insults. So few of my proofs have even been discussed. I'm talking to a brick wall.
Nobody is shui or Meretz on here as they literally support Israel having Sharia law which I haven't seen any of us support. We are only pointing out the flaws of certain jews in hope they will become better.
Stop lying. They do not support Sharia law. But all they do is trash Judaism day and night and pretty much say many of the things that are said here. They want a secular "democratic" society without Torah and religious Jews, even without Muslims.
anyway maybe sharia law would be better then having a complete anti-religious (Jewish) government. (not opinion just idea).
Interesting, you might have to consult the Rambam who in Hilkhoth Hannukah talks about the great thing about Hannukah was the returning of Jewish government for more than 200 years.
Think of who he is including in this praise.
Herod.
Antipater.
Yannai, who crusified 900 Talmidhei Hakhomim on the road to Jerusalem.
My G-d, Even Shimon Peres hasn't done that.
Think a little before wishing foreign rulers instead of Jewish sovereignty, Ok?