JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ChabadKahanist on October 07, 2013, 06:44:23 AM
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Rabbi Ovadia Yosef was niftar a short time ago.
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:'( very sad day
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True Baruch Dayan HaEmes
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May his soul realize the wrong decision he made accepting the inception of Oslo accords
May all Torah observant Jews become zealots of kahane's torah
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He knew a lot about Torah but he also did some evil things. Let us hope his replacement is a true Zionist that rejects land for peace.
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He knew a lot about Torah but he also did some evil things. Let us hope his replacement is a true Zionist that rejects land for peace.
I just hope there won't be a replacement.
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How dare you guys say evil about the Rav
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How dare you guys say evil about the Rav
What's evil? Did we curse him?
Aren't we allowed to disagree with some of the decisions this Rav made?
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How dare you guys say evil about the Rav
I really want to post about this.. but everything I come up with will exist only to serve to make people angry with me. So... I'll just say rest in peace ROY.
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How dare you guys say evil about the Rav
They are not saying anything evil at all but simply stating the the truth.
FYI,Even though he was a big talmid chochom & a world class posek he made many mistakes such as initially being a puppet of the evil R' Elzazar Shach who said disgusting evil things about both the Lubavitcher,Rebbe,ZT"L,ZYA,HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik,ZT"L,ZY"A & HaRav Adin Steinsaltz,Shlit"a.
The Rebbe & Rav Soloveitchik saved American Jewry in general & Orthodoxy in America in general from extinction(completely assimilating to death),Rav Steinsaltz made gemora accessable to a whole new new generation of Jews.
What did Shach do?
He created generations of welfare cases & draft dodgers as well as alienate thousands of Jews from Judaism by his lack of Ahavat Yisrael & carss manners.
Also because of Rav Ovadia's support of Oslo & giving land for so called "peace" thousands of Jews died & were maimed.
Where is the evil in stating well known facts?
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Apparently their are people now criticizing him for being too right-wing. And anti-Arab.
Anyway here is a good biography of him, his family etc.
http://youtu.be/9ylMd-PuMzE
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I think he said right-wing things sometimes to try to get a bigger audience, and to try to get people to forget about his support of Oslo.
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http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,70117.msg599127.html#msg599127
I posted this earlier and important parts highlighted as well.
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Rabbi Meir Kahane: Land for Peace - What is the Halacha?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ3l2iNgbps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ3l2iNgbps)
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Rabbis who believe that Jewish land is for sale to the Muslims are in my opinion even more evil than the Nazis, themselves.
I don't know a lot about this man, except he was known for making a lot of concessions to the Muslims in the name of his special, deep Rabbinical knowledge. Nothing like using the Talmud/Torah as a way to gain power in politics? And, just because somebody ha the status of Rav, doesn't mean they cannot be anti-Jewish/anti-Israel.. Has anyone heard of the group named Neturei Karta??
If someone can enlighten me about this Rabbi, where I may be wrong, I will revoke my sentiments. What I would like to know is how any Kahanist Jew could mourn a man who supported the destruction of the Jewish state for a peace that will never happen?
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Rabbis who believe that Jewish land is for sale to the Muslims are in my opinion even more evil than the Nazis, themselves.
Not for sale, the difference between Rav Kahane and Rav Ovadia Yosef was 1 underlying principle- that is the Rav Kahane held that land cannot be given over even for (real) peace and Rav Ovadia held that land can be given over for real peace. and saving Jewish lives. It should be in the hands of people who are responsible for the defense of the country to decide (his opinion) That is the difference. Wrong- yes. Evil- No. Different attitude and way of seeing things.
How do you compare that to the NK (Yimah Shehem) who are just traitors who work to do real harm against Am Yisrael?
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Not for sale, the difference between Rav Kahane and Rav Ovadia Yosef was 1 underlying principle- that is the Rav Kahane held that land cannot be given over even for (real) peace and Rav Ovadia held that land can be given over for real peace. and saving Jewish lives. It should be in the hands of people who are responsible for the defense of the country to decide (his opinion) That is the difference. Wrong- yes. Evil- No. Different attitude and way of seeing things.
I guess Rav Ovadia Yosef was naive, not evil, then.. In that respect, can we say the rabbis of Neturei Karta are evil, since they also believe that by giving Israel to the Arabs there will be peace and will bring Moshiach? This now has become a very complicated and confusing subject to me.
In my opinion, anybody who thinks they can partition the land and give it to the enemies for whatever reason, is warring against Hashem. To allow Israel to become a land of idolatrous pagans (the Muslims) to me seems evil. Also, shouldn't we Jews be vigilant in defending the land that Hashem has given to us, rather than begging for mercy and agreeing to make concessions?
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I don't know a lot about this man, except he was known for making a lot of concessions to the Muslims in the name of his special, deep Rabbinical knowledge. Nothing like using the Talmud/Torah as a way to gain power in politics?
You certainly don't that is why you are speaking like this. His scholarship is unmatched for sure. No one like him now and ever since for a very long time. He knew many many books by heart and wrote encyclopedi's worth of books on Jewish law. Some of his books were literally from Q's and A's from a live show that he did on air on very hard Halahic questions that callers would call in and ask. He would answer and bring statements after statements all by heart and the recordings would then be collected and made into volumes of books. I believe it's his Chazon Ovadia
http://www.seforimcenter.com/prodtype.asp?cookiecheck=yes&PT_ID=418&strPageHistory=cat
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I guess Rav Ovadia Yosef was naive, not evil, then.. In that respect, can we say the rabbis of Neturei Karta are evil, since they also believe that by giving Israel to the Arabs there will be peace and will bring Moshiach? This now has become a very complicated and confusing subject to me.
In my opinion, anybody who thinks they can partition the land and give it to the enemies for whatever reason, is warring against Hashem. To allow Israel to become a land of idolatrous pagans (the Muslims) to me seems evil. Also, shouldn't we Jews be vigilant in defending the land that Hashem has given to us, rather than begging for mercy and agreeing to make concessions?
He was against the disengagement (from Gazza) . But held that in the prospect of a real (and lasting) peace treaty it would be possible to give up land if in the long run it would save Jewish lives (Pikuah Nefesh), and it should be a decision for the country to make (people in charge of the defense). According to him Pikuah Nefesh is the most important and he quoted the Shulhan Aruch saying that in the case of saving a person's life everything can be violated except 3 things (idolatry, sexual sins and murder). In our opinion he made a critical mistake because the Shulhan Aruch isn't a complete work on Jewish law and it is dealing with the individual and not the nation as a whole.
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You certainly don't that is why you are speaking like this. His scholarship is unmatched for sure. No one like him now and ever since for a very long time. He knew many many books by heart and wrote encyclopedi's worth of books on Jewish law. Some of his books were literally from Q's and A's from a live show that he did on air on very hard Halahic questions that callers would call in and ask. He would answer and bring statements after statements all by heart and the recordings would then be collected and made into volumes of books. I believe it's his Chazon Ovadia
http://www.seforimcenter.com/prodtype.asp?cookiecheck=yes&PT_ID=418&strPageHistory=cat
With such knowledge maybe he was correct then about partitioning Eretz Yisrael to the Muslimim.
Who am I to argue with a scholar? I do believe man of his wisdom then can be a greater influence in anything he does. If he believes in selling off the land of Israel, our holy places, etc that it will save Jewish lives. Another example could be the well-learned and respect Satmar Rabbi in Hungary, who contributed to the death of 100,000s of Jews in doing what he thought was a way to bring peace to the Jews, that is, obeying Hitler's decrees of going to "labor camps".
There are also many well-learned and scholarly people who come from the Neturei Karta sect.. Once again, should we condemn the people of Neturei Karta, considering they believe by giving Israel to the Arabs we will have peace and save Jewish lives? If Rav Ovadia is allowed to promote the giving away of Israeli land for peace, since he is well learned and a great Jewish scholar, who are we to condemn any other Jews who promote anti-israel deeds, as long as their long term goal is peace of the Jewish people?
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http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=151215
Deri Targeted in Din Torah Over Oslo Agreement
(Saturday, January 5th, 2013)
Shas co-leader Aryeh Deri has been summoned to appear before a Yerushalayim beis din in a case filed against him stemming from his support of the Oslo Agreement. Deri joins his chareidi MK colleague, MK Moshe Gafne of Yahadut Hatorah, who was targeted in a similar Din Torah last year for his role in permitting the government to expel the Jewish community of Gaza in 2005, Ariel Sharon’s “Disengagement Plan”.
INN reports this suit was filed against Deri by Geula Hershkowitz, whose husband and son were murdered in terror attacks, and she feels this is the result of the Oslo process.
As was the case in the hazmana against Gafne, the case is being heard by the Jerusalem Monetary Beis Din. Hershkowitz explains that Deri played a role in the Oslo Agreement passing in Knesset, and that has led to the death of over 1,500 Israelis as well as over 14,000 people being injured and/or permanently maimed in attacks. She adds there are over 240 widows and more than 2,700 orphans as a result of Oslo.
She is seeking to have the beis din rule that Deri may no longer as a MK.
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I am hoping (but making no predictions) that Deri will rapidly lose political power, now that he can no longer rely on Rabbi Yosef to protect him, and some minor comfort will come to the widow, Geula Hershkowitz
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EveryJew- 1) how do you even say
"There are also many well-learned and scholarly people who come from the Neturei Karta sect."
Are you even serious in that? What makes them scholars? A beard and a black suit? Seriously, name me 1 book of Halacha they even attempted to write?
On the other hand see the many many many books and saying of this Rav and you cannot even be serious.
You dont have to disrespect him, you can disagree and rely on a different scholar(s) that held otherwise. That is how Rav Kahane said to do.
"If he believes in selling off the land of Israel, our holy places, etc that it will save Jewish lives"
not exactly. The first premise is if it will save Jewish lives in the long run and then the second option is given. You might miss it but their is a huge difference.
Anyway FYI different places are now condemning him for being an "extremist who was against women's rights, homosexual's and Arabs" .
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Baruch Dayan HaEmet (Blessed is the True Judge)...
This man was a gadol of the generation and should be respected. He realized the error of giving land for peace (Pikuach Nefesh) and we should not judge him.
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http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2013/10/for-those-who-dont-yet-know-enough.html#links
By the way, when you find the 'genuine peace,' call me.
In 1979, amid peace negotiations between Israel and Egypt, Rabbi Yosef ruled that pikuach nefesh granted Israel authority to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt.
Shas, however, abstained in a vote on the first Oslo agreement with the Palestinians, and voted against the second. Furthermore, as relations between Israel and the Palestinians began to deteriorate, and specifically following the outbreak of the Second Intifada in 2001, Rabbi Yosef and Shas pulled toward the rightwing of the Israeli political spectrum, supporting the Likud. In 2005, Rabbi Yosef condemned the Gaza disengagement plan spearheaded by then-prime minister Ariel Sharon, saying that he was opposed to unilateral action outside the framework of a peace agreement. Yosef instructed the Shas MKs to vote against the plan in the Knesset.
Yosef has also made several controversial comments regarding Israeli politicians as well as world leaders. During Purim 2000, he said that then-education minister Yossi Sarid was cursed as was Haman. In 2005, Yosef commented that Ariel Sharon was “torturing” the people of Israel with his plan to disengage from the Gaza Strip. “Let God strike him down,” Yosef was quoted in a BBC article as saying at the time. However, after Sharon suffered a stroke and fell into a coma, Yosef led prayer services for his recovery, explaining that he was opposed to the disengagement plan and not to Sharon himself.
Following Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans in 2005, Rabi Yosef blamed the natural disaster on then-U.S. President Bush's support of the Gaza disengagement, as well as on the lack of Torah study among Katrina's victims, who suffered “because they have no God.”
Rav Ovadiah was no fool, and he was not afraid to speak his mind.
Labels: Ariel Sharon, Gaza expulsion, George W. Bush, Middle East peace process, Oslo accords, Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef
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Also I think one of the crux differences is perhaps (and this is my little theory) is if Israel today is the "Atchalta deGeula" or not. If it is, it makes more sense to say that land for (real) peace is no good. If its not then according to them it is fine and Jewish lives are more important then land that the State controls and only once their is Moshiah etc. will Israel take over all this land and much more as well (Nile to Euphrates), or the land of the 7 nations of Cannan and 3 more as promised in the Torah. But that time isn't now.
I think Lubavitch also held like that as well (the last one).
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I guess Rav Ovadia Yosef was naive, not evil, then.. In that respect, can we say the rabbis of Neturei Karta are evil, since they also believe that by giving Israel to the Arabs there will be peace and will bring Moshiach? This now has become a very complicated and confusing subject to me.
In my opinion, anybody who thinks they can partition the land and give it to the enemies for whatever reason, is warring against Hashem. To allow Israel to become a land of idolatrous pagans (the Muslims) to me seems evil. Also, shouldn't we Jews be vigilant in defending the land that Hashem has given to us, rather than begging for mercy and agreeing to make concessions?
EJa22...
Where, from Jewish sages, do you learn that Muslims are idolatrous pagans? As far as all the sages go, Islam is a monotheistic religion. (See Rambam)...
This is not defending muslims, but it is a fact that the children of Ishmael (son of Abraham) have kept a mostly monotheistic religion.
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48949566.html
Mohammed's Vision
Mohammed was repelled by the cruel and crude reality around him. In the year 610, at the age of 40, he escaped to a desert cave where, according to Muslim tradition, he experienced a series of mystical visions, including revelations from the Angel Gabriel. He returned from the desert imbued with a spiritual mission to transform the pagan society around him.
Preaching an end to licentiousness and need for peace, justice and social responsibility, Muhammad advocated improving the lot of slaves, orphans, women and the poor, and replacing tribal loyalties with the fellowship of a new monotheistic faith ― which he called Islam, meaning "surrender to God." (One who submits is a Muslim.)
Islam, according to Mohammed, was built on five pillars:
* Faith in one God ("there is no God but Allah")
* Prayer (five times a day)
* Charity (2.5% of one's income)
* Pilgrimage to Mecca called Haj (once in a lifetime)
* Fasting (a fast lasting from dawn to dusk for 30 days during the month of Ramadan)
Another fundamental principle of Islam is Jihad. ( While most people think the term Jihad means holy war the actual meaning of Jihad is "struggle" and can be used to refer to both the internal struggle between good and evil that occurs with in all of us as well as external struggle between the world of the Muslim (dhar al Islam) and the world of the non-Muslim called the World of War (dhar al Hare). The earliest use of the term Jihad as mentioned in 7th century Islamic law codes (sharia) refers to external struggle against the non-Islamic world.) (1)
I agree that Rav Yosefs ruling concerning Pikuach Nefesh in regards to giving land seems in error. But we are not on the level to argue the halachic implications of this ruling. We need other gedolim who can find errors in his reason.
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EJa22...
Where, from Jewish sages, do you learn that Muslims are idolatrous pagans? As far as all the sages go, Islam is a monotheistic religion. (See Rambam)...
This is not defending muslims, but it is a fact that the children of Ishmael (son of Abraham) have kept a mostly monotheistic religion.
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48949566.html
Sorry , we disagree.. It sounds like you don't know the origins of Islam... I don't need to read some liberal BS articles about how Islam is a respectable, non-idolatrous monotheistic religion, when in fact the moon g_d al-Ilah , the moon g_d of blood and war was the greatest of the many g_ds the arabs worshipped. Mohammad promoted the moon g_d as he knew it would unite the tribes and gain him power. However, all_h is an idolatrous, gluttonous, murderous and diabolic g_d.. He craves the flesh of young innocent girls, he is a glutton, thief and a barbarian. Monotheistic means little here..
As far as idols, the Muslims are the worst of idol worshippers. They put up the idol of the moon g_d, the crescent shaped moon on every mosque. And, every year, millions of Muslims make pilgrimage to Hajj to worship a big black box.. What greater form of idol worship is there than that???
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Sorry , we disagree.. It sounds like you don't know the origins of Islam... I don't need to read some liberal BS articles about how Islam is a respectable, non-idolatrous monotheistic religion, when in fact the moon g_d al-Ilah , the moon g_d of blood and war was the greatest of the many g_ds the arabs worshipped. Mohammad promoted the moon g_d as he knew it would unite the tribes and gain him power. However, all_h is an idolatrous, gluttonous, murderous and diabolic g_d.. He craves the flesh of young innocent girls, he is a glutton, thief and a barbarian. Monotheistic means little here..
As far as idols, the Muslims are the worst of idol worshippers. They put up the idol of the moon g_d, the crescent shaped moon on every mosque. And, every year, millions of Muslims make pilgrimage to Hajj to worship a big black box.. What greater form of idol worship is there than that???
This is your opinion... Please quote a sage...
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5772/bo.html
Regarding Islam, however, most poskim follow the opinion of the Rambam[12] that it is not considered avodah zarah[13]. Hence they do not expressly forbid entering a mosque[14]. Other poskim forbid entering a mosque as well[15]. All agree that unless there is a compelling reason to do so, mosques are off limits for any G-d-fearing Jew.
12. Hilchos Ma’achalos Assuros 11:7.
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This is your opinion... Please quote a sage...
I don't need to quote a sage.. I will quote historians who have done thorough research on the origins of Islam... Can you tell me the origins of the Kabbah or the Crescent shape moon?
When I get time, I will post some articles discussing the pagan origins of Islam and the idolatrous nature of this religion, including these sacred objects they worship.. Just because they mix arab paganism with Judaic and CHristian teachings, doesn't make the religion any less pagan or idolatrous.
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I don't need to quote a sage.. I will quote historians who have done thorough research on the origins of Islam... Can you tell me the origins of the Kabbah or the Crescent shape moon?
When I get time, I will post some articles discussing the pagan origins of Islam and the idolatrous nature of this religion, including these sacred objects they worship.. Just because they mix arab paganism with Judaic and CHristian teachings, doesn't make the religion any less pagan or idolatrous.
Do you respect Rambam? Can you explain why he doesn't find a problem with a Jew going to a Mosque?
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Muman - its most, I dont think all. Definitely not a good thing though to make a new religion. Also he refers to muhammed as the "insane one".
Also (and I dont know much about this in general) but his objection was to a certain Rabbi that said that those Jews who were forcible converted to Islam are basically like idolaters. He said that they are not and they didn't have to give up their lives when faced with "convert and die" in the case of Islam. They can also enter a Mosque without a problem because it is basically like nothing. Not a Holy place and not a place of idolatry. But just like someone's apartment or something.
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I don't need to quote a sage.. I will quote historians who have done thorough research on the origins of Islam... Can you tell me the origins of the Kabbah or the Crescent shape moon?
When I get time, I will post some articles discussing the pagan origins of Islam and the idolatrous nature of this religion, including these sacred objects they worship.. Just because they mix arab paganism with Judaic and CHristian teachings, doesn't make the religion any less pagan or idolatrous.
I don't have time to argue about this now but basically that Aish article explains how Mohamud brought the faith to the pagan arabs who did worship the moon god. It was his goal to remove such Avodah Zara... Did he succeed, I am no muslim scholar. But I believe that today the only deity which muslims worship is called allah.
I would like to see the opinions of the sages on this topic but am mainly aware of Maimonides opinion which I provided above.
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Muman- its most, I dont think all. Definitely not a good thing though to make a new religion. Also he refers to muhammed as the "insane one".
I do not think Islam is a good thing. It came about due to Ishmael's descendants jealousy for the Jewish people. This is my opinion.
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The nations can accuse us of polytheism and have done so based on misunderstanding the statement "Let us make man..." and also the fact that the Torah uses two main names for our G-d, Hashem (The tetragrammaton) and Elohim.... Some actually believe they are two different entities, but we know that Hashem is Elohim...
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Do you respect Rambam? Can you explain why he doesn't find a problem with a Jew going to a Mosque?
I deeply respect Rambam, but I also look at the context of Rambam's situation. He was friends with the Sufis who saved his life and whom he lived among. Indeed, at the time Christians were exterminating the Jews and the Sufi Sultan gave him refuge.. However, Rambam was not exposed to the more prevalent and barbaric Salafi sects of Islam that are widespread today. ANd, as much as I respect Rambam, there are things about his views on Islam that I think have not been researched, as the information was not available to him as we have today.. He would have had no way of knowing the origins of the Kabbah, crescent moon and other pagan factors of Islam. He may have taken them at face value at the time..
I am not a Jewish scholar, but I use historical evidence and research , rather than Rambam's teachings as my utlimate source of knowledge on Islam. I believe Rambam's teachings about Judaism are of greatest importance, but I do not look to him for a deep historical analysis of the Islamic religion. He is a Jewish scholar, not an Islamic scholar.
I am a bit confused why you , a Kahanist Jew, would go out of your way to defend Muslims, our enemies??? What are you trying to achieve anyway?
You also have not answered my questions about the origins of the Kabbah and crescent moon? Are you telling me millions of muslims surrounding and worshipping the black stone that houses all_h, the moon god is not idol worship?
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I am not defending them. Islam is MY PERSONAL ENEMY. I am only arguing for the sake of truth.
As a victim of Muslim terror I would like to believe that everything is happening according to Hashems will. I believe that Ishmaels descendants are playing a major role in bringing about the final redemption of the Jewish people.
It is hard to explain and maybe I will write more about it this evening (but I am at work and don't have a lot of time now)...
But I am just repeating what I learned in a discussion about whether we Jews can go to Churches or Mosques and what Rambam said concerning the matter of whether islam is avodah zara.
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EJa44,
Again I don't have a lot of time to do the research (which I just may do this evening) but I would turn around with a question.
Could an observer say that 1000s of Jews praying to a wall is not avodah zarah?
We know that it is not. Either is praying at the grave of a tzadik...
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Islam has no place in Israel and when the time has come all mosques will disappear from the land, so too all places of Worship where strange 'gods' are worshiped.
I do not believe Allah is Hashem. I have thought long and hard on the topic and believe that Allah may be a force which we call Elohim but Elohim is not G-d, it is an aspect of G-d (his more relevant aspect is Yud Kay...)...
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EJa44,
Again I don't have a lot of time to do the research (which I just may do this evening) but I would turn around with a question.
Could an observer say that 1000s of Jews praying to a wall is not avodah zarah?
We know that it is not. Either is praying at the grave of a tzadik...
I too am busy, but I will make one quick comment about the difference of the Kotel and the Kabbah. We Jews don't believe that Hashem lives within the KOtel, but rather that his presence dwells there, as it is the Throne of the King and the place where the Temple was housed. The Muslims believe the Kabbah itself houses their g_d and the Kabbah itself has special powers.. Praying at the Wall is no different than us walking into the Temple to pray, as it is the place our Temple once stood. The Kabbah is an artifact that is worshiped, as through the Kabbah itself.
If you study the origins of the Kabbah, you will learn it is a pagan artifact that pre-dates Islam.. The artifact itself is all_h, and through this object all_h is summoned.. Basically, the Kabbah is the physical representation of the moon deity.
The muslims also carried scimitars which were in the shape of the crescent moon.. They used the scimitars to slay their enemies because it was considered a sacred object ..The moon g_d all_h is always hungry for blood and slaying flesh with a crescent moon is suppose to be a sign of honor to feed the moon g_d all_h who is always hungry for blood. The moon g_d is very violent and needs the blood of his enemies for nourishment.
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EveryJew- He knew of the Kaabah, about Islam about the sciences and knowledge in general much more then me and you and everyone here. As did other sages. Some did hold it is Avodah Zara others did not. Its a different discussion, we had it here before as well, perhaps you can find it its a separate thread.
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I too am busy, but I will make one quick comment about the difference of the Kotel and the Kabbah. We Jews don't believe that Hashem lives within the KOtel, but rather that his presence dwells there, as it is the Throne of the King and the place where the Temple was housed. The Muslims believe the Kabbah itself houses their g_d and the Kabbah itself has special powers.. Praying at the Wall is no different than us walking into the Temple to pray, as it is the place our Temple once stood. The Kabbah is an artifact that is worshiped, as through the Kabbah itself.
If you study the origins of the Kabbah, you will learn it is a pagan artifact that pre-dates Islam.. The artifact itself is all_h, and through this object all_h is summoned.. Basically, the Kabbah is the physical representation of the moon deity.
The muslims also carried scimitars which were in the shape of the crescent moon.. They used the scimitars to slay their enemies because it was considered a sacred object ..The moon g_d all_h is always hungry for blood and slaying flesh with a crescent moon is suppose to be a sign of honor to feed the moon g_d all_h who is always hungry for blood. The moon g_d is very violent and needs the blood of his enemies for nourishment.
I will take your word. In general I do not pay attention to 'comparative religion' as I am only concerned with what is important as a Jew. We are not supposed to even mention the name of others g-ds.
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EveryJew- He knew of the Kaabah, about Islam about the sciences and knowledge in general much more then me and you and everyone here. As did other sages. Some did hold it is Avodah Zara others did not. Its a different discussion, we had it here before as well, perhaps you can find it its a separate thread.
I would certainly like to learn about what Rambam thought about the Kaabah (pardon my spelling).. I wasn't sure how much knowledge he could have had, since it's location was far from where he lived and considering the wars that were being fought during the time.
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Muman613 your the most respectful person on this forum. The Rav was a holy rabbi. This top should be called Maran Ovadia Yosef ZTL passes away.
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I would certainly like to learn about what Rambam thought about the Kaabah (pardon my spelling).. I wasn't sure how much knowledge he could have had, since it's location was far from where he lived and considering the wars that were being fought during the time.
From Edu- And I saw this as well in his book.
"Rambam admitted that Muslims incorporated within their worship, pagan practices of throwing stones at Markolis, as well as pagan practices associated with the worship of the idols, Peor (mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 25:18) and Kemosh (mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 21:29).
But Rambam’s contention is that because the Muslims have monotheistic intentions when they do these things or bow in their houses of worship, this is a reason to exempt them from the severe sin of idolatry. He adds that the foolishness and the stupidity of the Yishmaelites are in other areas, but that he could not put it in writing because the wicked of Israel might inform on him {to the Muslims} regarding what he wrote. "
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,70842.0.html
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Anyway this whole discussion is sidetracked. I dont care about Islam and the question if idol worship or not. Gentiles have other Misswoth including prohibition against murder and to establish courts of Justice that bring them to justice that is the crux of the "beef" with them (muslims today).
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/172608#.UlMon1Drxpc
Police: Rabbi Yosef's Funeral Largest in Israel's History
Some 10% of Israel's population attended the funeral of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Monday night in Jerusalem, police said.
Others reported at over 1 million people.
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I am impressed at the turnout of people to the Rabbis leviah..
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This just shows the holiness of this Rabbi
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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ROY also state that Arabs are brothers of the Jews and that their lives should be spared if possible?
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Islam has no place in Israel and when the time has come all mosques will disappear from the land, so too all places of Worship where strange 'gods' are worshiped.
I do not believe Allah is Hashem. I have thought long and hard on the topic and believe that Allah may be a force which we call Elohim but Elohim is not G-d, it is an aspect of G-d (his more relevant aspect is Yud Kay...)...
I'm not going to get into the "what is Islam" debate, but how is the "aspects of God" thing you are referring to here different from the concept of a trinity? Just a question...
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I'm not going to get into the "what is Islam" debate, but how is the "aspects of God" thing you are referring to here different from the concept of a trinity? Just a question...
The Trinity is much older than Christianity and was not part of the early teachings... Once you apply Jesus to the Trinity he becomes a man/G-d, and once you pray to him to pray to G-d he becomes an idol. You are putting him before G-d. In my opinion Jesus was the son of G-d as we all are the children of HaShem.
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I'm not going to get into the "what is Islam" debate, but how is the "aspects of God" thing you are referring to here different from the concept of a trinity? Just a question...
The Torah refers to our G-d using two names, the four-letter 'tetragrammaton' name we say as 'Hashem' and the name 'Elokim'. The sages teach us that the name Elokim represents the aspect of G-d which represents nature and harsh justice (Din/Gevurah). The world was created by the name Elokim... The name which Abraham related to is the name Hashem which represents Mercy and Kindness.
I have heard it said that the peoples of the world related to the middah of Din, thus they would worship what we call Elokim. It was Abraham and the Jews who understood that the same force of Justice and Nature is the very same as the force of Mercy and Kindness.
We say in our prayers 'Hashem Hu HaElokim' or 'Hashem is Elokim' which we meditate on. We use both names in the Shema prayer..
Shema Yisrael Hashem Elokainu, Hashem Echad... Hear O'Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is One...
We do not believe that these two elemental names are different forces, but instead they exist as one G-d but we perceive him through the characteristic of our relationship to him.
We do not address one name in our prayers, always calling him Hashem Elokainu (G-d, our G-d).
I don't know if I did a good job of explaining it but it is essential for a Jew to realize that while we may perceive Hashem acting in the world using various 'middot'/traits he is always a single entity.
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The Trinity is much older than Christianity and was not part of the early teachings... Once you apply Jesus to the Trinity he becomes a man/G-d, and once you pray to him to pray to G-d he becomes an idol. You are putting him before G-d. In my opinion Jesus was the son of G-d as we all are the children of HaShem.
The Torah calls the Jewish people his firstborn son.
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http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/name.htm
The Names of God
The most important of God's Names is the four-letter Name represented by the Hebrew letters Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh (Hashem). It is often referred to as the Ineffable Name, the Unutterable Name or the Distinctive Name. Linguistically, it is related to the Hebrew root Heh-Yod-Heh (to be), and reflects the idea that God's existence is eternal. In scripture, this Name is used when discussing God's relation with human beings, and when emphasizing his qualities of lovingkindness and mercy. It is frequently shortened to Yah (Yod-Heh), Yahu or Yeho (Yod-Heh-Vav), especially when used in combination with names or phrases, as in Yehoshua (Joshua, meaning the LORD is Salvation), Eliyahu (Elijah, meaning my God is the LORD), and Halleluyah (praise the LORD).
The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural. The same word (or, according to Maimonides, a homonym of it) is used to refer to princes, judges, other gods, and other powerful beings. This Name is used in scripture when emphasizing God's might, His creative power, and his attributes of justice and rulership. Variations on this name include El, Eloah, Elohai (my God), and Eloheynu (our God).
God is also known as El Shaddai. This Name is usually translated as "God Almighty", however, the derivation of the word "Shaddai" is not known. According to some views, it is derived from the root meaning to heap benefits. According to a Midrash, it means, "The One who said 'dai'" ("dai" meaning enough or sufficient) and comes from the idea that when God created the universe, it expanded until He said "DAI!" (perhaps the first recorded theory of an expanding universe?). The name Shaddai is the one written on the mezuzah scroll. Some note that Shaddai is an acronym of Shomer Daltot Yisrael, Guardian of the Doors of Israel.
Another significant Name of God is Hashem Tzva'ot. This Name is normally translated as LORD of Hosts. The word "tzva'ot" means hosts in the sense of a military grouping or an organized array. The Name refers to God's leadership and sovereignty. Interestingly, this Name is rarely used in scripture. It never appears in the Torah (i.e., the first five books). It appears primarily in the prophetic books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, as well as many times in the Psalms.
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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ROY also state that Arabs are brothers of the Jews and that their lives should be spared if possible?
I don't think soo. A lot of people are complaining that he called the Arabs evil and snakes that can't be trusted. That is at least how some are complaining about. And against him.
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http://www.aish.com/sp/pr/The_Names_of_God.html
The two most important of these names, taught to us by God in the Torah, are the names mentioned in the first verse of the Shema – Elokim and YudHeyVavHey, or the Shem.
Elokim: The Name of Power
When we call God “the Almighty,” it is the English translation of the name Elokim, says the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim, 5). But we must put in a little work into what the name Almighty implies to benefit in relationship terms. Let us first state what we mean by Almighty and then proceed to explain it. Through this name, we acknowledge that God is not only the Creator, but the Master of all the power and energy in the universe.
What does this mean in plain English? In his book Nefesh Hachaim, Rav Chaim of Volozhin explains how to understand God’s power in relation to our own: Human beings can be creators. For instance, man can create a massive edifice. Once he finishes his creation, though, the creation can exist without its creator. The building – barring unusual circumstances – will stand long after its architects and construction crew have faded from the world. Even a child, once created and borne by his parents, can exist independent of them.
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The Shem: YudHeyVavHey
But nature has fairly fixed rules. The laws of nature do not seem to be sufficient to account for the flexibility that prayer assumes. After all every prayer is a request to change the world just for me. To account for the assumptions about our relation ship with God implied by prayer we have to learn to relate to God’s other name Hashem.
In Jewish tradition, Y.H.V.H God’s personal name, so to speak, as opposed to Elokim which refers to the Almighty more in terms of the presidential functions of His office. Descriptions of the Almighty’s feelings, character traits and motivations are always associated with the name Hashem, never with the name Elokim. Literally, the Shem identifies the Almighty as independent of time and as the source of all existence. The Shulchan Aruch (ibid) translates this: “He was, is, and will be – the author of all being.” He is the source of everything – past, present and future.
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Never heard about this man until I was reading the Serbian news today...anyway, he must had been someone important
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The Trinity is much older than Christianity and was not part of the early teachings... Once you apply Jesus to the Trinity he becomes a man/G-d, and once you pray to him to pray to G-d he becomes an idol. You are putting him before G-d. In my opinion Jesus was the son of G-d as we all are the children of HaShem.
I'm a student of early Christianity. I'll tell you right now the trinity was certainly an early Christian belief. Not by name (the word "trinity" doesn't appear until the second century) but by doctrine. If you read early Christian writings like the Didache (60AD) and the letters of saint Ignatius (90AD) you will see that the doctrine of the trinity was well in place. And Jesus specifically denounced the idea that he is a son of God "like we are all children of God" in John chapter 10. He explicitly makes it clear that he is a divine son "I and my Father are one" John10:30.
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I'm a student of early Christianity. I'll tell you right now the trinity was certainly an early Christian belief. Not by name (the word "trinity" doesn't appear until the second century) but by doctrine. If you read early Christian writings like the Didache (60AD) and the letters of saint Ignatius (90AD) you will see that the doctrine of the trinity was well in place. And Jesus specifically denounced the idea that he is a son of God "like we are all children of God" in John chapter 10. He explicitly makes it clear that he is a divine son "I and my Father are one" John10:30.
Oy vey.. Speaking of getting off topic... Even though I am not a great fan of this Rabbi, I still think we should not stray too far off topic and keep it related to the Rabbi, his views and how he affected the Jewish people, Israel, world, etc..
Obviously, a debate about Jesus, Christianity and the Trinity can be left for another thread.
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I'm a student of early Christianity. I'll tell you right now the trinity was certainly an early Christian belief. Not by name (the word "trinity" doesn't appear until the second century) but by doctrine. If you read early Christian writings like the Didache (60AD) and the letters of saint Ignatius (90AD) you will see that the doctrine of the trinity was well in place. And Jesus specifically denounced the idea that he is a son of God "like we are all children of God" in John chapter 10. He explicitly makes it clear that he is a divine son "I and my Father are one" John10:30.
oh no, trinity was established long before Christ...look at major religions of the East
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Oy vey.. Speaking of getting off topic... Even though I am not a great fan of this Rabbi, I still think we should not stray too far off topic and keep it related to the Rabbi, his views and how he affected the Jewish people, Israel, world, etc..
Obviously, a debate about Jesus, Christianity and the Trinity can be left for another thread.
Agree... It was never my intention that this thread drift off in this direction.
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He was against the disengagement (from Gazza) . But held that in the prospect of a real (and lasting) peace treaty it would be possible to give up land if in the long run it would save Jewish lives (Pikuah Nefesh), and it should be a decision for the country to make (people in charge of the defense). According to him Pikuah Nefesh is the most important and he quoted the Shulhan Aruch saying that in the case of saving a person's life everything can be violated except 3 things (idolatry, sexual sins and murder). In our opinion he made a critical mistake because the Shulhan Aruch isn't a complete work on Jewish law and it is dealing with the individual and not the nation as a whole.
But it's worse than that, and you should know better. There was never any proof, any evidence, orany other reason to irrationally believe that giving money, weapons, and our own land away to our enemies would somehow weaken them and bring about peace when they make their intentions of nazi genocide clear. More than thatis also wrong with citing this halacha that you did. I will get into it later. For now, I second Dan Ben Noah's comment.
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But it's worse than that, and you should know better. There was never any proof, any evidence, orany other reason to irrationally believe that giving money, weapons, and our own land away to our enemies would somehow weaken them and bring about peace when they make their intentions of nazi genocide clear. More than thatis also wrong with citing this halacha that you did. I will get into it later. For now, I second Dan Ben Noah's comment.
Can anyone show any proof that he supported Oslo. The articles I have come across say he was supporting giving land for peace in the case of giving the Sinai to Egypt but when it came to oslo it looks like the story I read said he did not support it...
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Can anyone show any proof that he supported Oslo. The articles I have come across say he was supporting giving land for peace in the case of giving the Sinai to Egypt but when it came to oslo it looks like the story I read said he did not support it...
Without shas's signatures the vote for oslo didn't pass. This is common knowledge, so please locate the source yourself.
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Now getting back to Muman's posts about the names Jews use to describe G-d...Hashem literally translates in English as "the name."
And Elohim translates as (roughly) the Almighty.
So to respond to Lewinsky/Brennan, we're basically using an adjective, or adjectives to describe the one G-d of Abraham. It's not separate entities.
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I'm a student of early Christianity. I'll tell you right now the trinity was certainly an early Christian belief. Not by name (the word "trinity" doesn't appear until the second century) but by doctrine. If you read early Christian writings like the Didache (60AD) and the letters of saint Ignatius (90AD) you will see that the doctrine of the trinity was well in place. And Jesus specifically denounced the idea that he is a son of God "like we are all children of God" in John chapter 10. He explicitly makes it clear that he is a divine son "I and my Father are one" John10:30.
I do not wish to continue this in this thread, maybe some where else... Saint Ignatius was a pagan that converted to Christianity, his father worked for the Romans and his mother was a Jew. The Romans had control and influence over his life and his beliefs. Do you not think it had an impact on his writings? That is one persons writings, there are others that go against the Trinity(Jesus was G-d) that were not included in the Canon. There were other followers that believed Jesus was " The Messiah", but was not divine, because it go's against Torah...
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Now getting back to Muman's posts about the names Jews use to describe G-d...Hashem literally translates in English as "the name."
And Elohim translates as (roughly) the Almighty.
So to respond to Lewinsky/Brennan, we're basically using an adjective, or adjectives to describe the one G-d of Abraham. It's not separate entities.
Thanks for clarifying that. I understand that, but I was referring to Muman's use of the term "aspects", not just the fact that G-d has different names (which Christianity also affirms).
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Thanks for clarifying that. I understand that, but I was referring to Muman's use of the term "aspects", not just the fact that G-d has different names (which Christianity also affirms).
Obviously, I'm not Muman, but perhaps he meant to say "attribute" In the context of what he previously posted, that how it appears to me.
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I use the term Middot/Traits (Character Traits)...
The tetragrammaton (YudHey...) is the attribute of Chesed/Rachamim.... Elokim is the attribute of Din/Gevurah (Justice/Restraint)...
There are other middot we discuss also, but these are the two main ones used in Chumash.
Shaddai is actually translated as 'Almighty'... Elokim is translated as 'G-d'...
In prayer we say 'Adonai' (My master) rather than pronounce the word for Hashem.
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I use the term Middot/Traits (Character Traits)...
The tetragrammaton (YudHey...) is the aspect of Chesed/Rachamim.... Elokim is the aspect of Din/Gevurah (Justice/Restraint)...
There are other middot we discuss also, but these are the two main ones used in Chumash.
Shaddai is actually translated as 'Almighty'... Elokim is translated as 'G-d'...
Isn't a character trait synonymous with an attribute?
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I use the term Middot/Traits (Character Traits)...
The tetragrammaton (YudHey...) is the attribute of Chesed/Rachamim.... Elokim is the attribute of Din/Gevurah (Justice/Restraint)...
There are other middot we discuss also, but these are the two main ones used in Chumash.
Shaddai is actually translated as 'Almighty'... Elokim is translated as 'G-d'...
OK thanks!
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Isn't a character trait synonymous with an attribute?
Yes.
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We recite Hashems 13 'attributes' of Mercy on Yom Kippur many times..
http://www.tanach.org/special/13mid1.htm
Our recitation of the thirteen 'middot ha-rachamim' [God's thirteen attributes of mercy] is certainly the focal point of the 'selichot' prayers and the highlight of 'ne'ila' on Yom Kippur. But how are we to understand this recitation? Is it a 'hokus pokus' type magic formula through which one can achieve automatic atonement?
In the following shiur, we attempt to prove quite the opposite. By undertaking a comprehensive analysis of when and why God first declared these middot (in the aftermath of 'chet ha-egel'), we will show how their recitation relates to the very essence of 'tefilla' [prayer] and our special relationship with God.
Our conclusions will also help us appreciate the transition from Rosh Ha'shana to Yom Kippur; as the focus of our prayers shifts from 'din' [judgement] to 'rachamim' [mercy].
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Yes.
Thanks. I though so.
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Some video of the leviah...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrsswgqYesw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvfikitA55U
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt8x_VxA95c
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Holy thread derailment, Batman!
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Holy thread derailment, Batman!
8)
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I do not wish to continue this in this thread, maybe some where else... Saint Ignatius was a pagan that converted to Christianity, his father worked for the Romans and his mother was a Jew. The Romans had control and influence over his life and his beliefs. Do you not think it had an impact on his writings? That is one persons writings, there are others that go against the Trinity(Jesus was G-d) that were not included in the Canon. There were other followers that believed Jesus was " The Messiah", but was not divine, because it go's against Torah...
Ignatius was not a pagan, he was most likely a pharisaic jew. There is a small chance he was a sadducean jew but its unlikely since almost all of the early jewish christians came from the pharisees. Second, no he was not influenced by any pagan religion. The didache, which discusses Jesus' divinity, was written entirely by Jews. As were all the epistles. There are no writings from the first century from Christians which say Jesus was not divine. The entire reason Jesus was put to death was because he claimed to be the essence of God placed within a human body.
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Ignatius was not a pagan, he was most likely a pharisaic jew. There is a small chance he was a sadducean jew but its unlikely since almost all of the early jewish christians came from the pharisees. Second, no he was not influenced by any pagan religion. The didache, which discusses Jesus' divinity, was written entirely by Jews. As were all the epistles. There are no writings from the first century from Christians which say Jesus was not divine. The entire reason Jesus was put to death was because he claimed to be the essence of God placed within a human body.
That is what you believe. We believe quite a bit differently. Let us leave it at that. Unless you want to explain what kind of Jew is damned to eternal hell or something like that. But we are prepared...
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Someone on this forum asked is there any sages that might indeed classify Islam as pagan
The answer, there are views like that too.
See http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,70842.0.html
As far as those attempting to whitewash Shas by saying that they abstained on some Oslo vote, first of all they did support the government to get it to that point in time when there was an Oslo vote.
Secondly Shas voted for the Wye Accords giving up parts of Chevrone (Hebron) and other parts of Israel and which also included handing more weapons over to the terrorists.
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Someone on this forum asked is there any sages that might indeed classify Islam as pagan
The answer, there are views like that too.
See http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,70842.0.html
As far as those attempting to whitewash Shas by saying that they abstained on some Oslo vote, first of all they did support the government to get it to that point in time when there was an Oslo vote.
Secondly Shas voted for the Wye Accords giving up parts of Chevrone (Hebron) and other parts of Israel and which also included handing more weapons over to the terrorists.
I remember that discussion, and it still is open in my mind, whether islam rises to avodah zarah or not. I just read through the discussion via your link and you present both arguments, whether it is idolatry to throw stones at kabbah (which is likened to the Roman diety Markolis).
Rather than continuing discussing this in the Rav Ovadiah thread we could continue with that topic back in the Torah section.
I hope it is clear that my opinion on this topic is not the psak halacha or anything. I try to learn what the sages think before forming my own opinion. And learn from any new information...
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Edu,
I would appreciate if you can provide a link (other than JTF) which may provide an explanation of Shas involvement in the Oslo process... I am googling it now and have not found any data on this...
I found this, which states that the Rav's opinion on Pikuach Nefesh provided Rabin with a 'halachic' reason for Oslo:
http://972mag.com/could-ultra-orthodox-shas-or-arab-parties-be-israels-next-peacemakers/34529/
In fact, Shas’ position is complex. Shas Interior Minister Eli Yishai has clearly stated that there should be no limits to construction in all the “Land of Israel,” but despite his role as deputy prime minister, he is not the final arbiter on Shas’ policy. That role belongs to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the elderly spiritual leader of the party. Rabbi Yosef is known to be more sympathetic towards the idea of land for peace and essentially provided Rabin with his own Halachic (Jewish-legal) justification for the Oslo Accords in 1993. Could Vaknin’s comments signal a shift back to this earlier policy as sanctioned by the great Rabbi himself?
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This article implies that Shas abstained from the 1st Oslo vote...
http://www.thejerusalemconnection.us/blog/2012/10/22/political-memory-aryeh-deri-and-the-oslo-agreement.html
The former Shas Party leader Aryeh Deri had a central role in advancing the Oslo process. Deri led the Shas Party politically from its inception until he was forced to resign in 1999 following his conviction on bribery charges. The Shas Party abstained in the first Oslo Accords vote in the Knesset in 1993, and voted against the Second Oslo Agreement in 1995. However, this does not tell the full story. Shas joined with Meretz and Labor (both left wing parties in 1992 to form the Rabin government that forged the Oslo Accords. Without the six Knesset seats of Shas, the 62-member government coalition would have fallen. Deri’s Shas was not a left-wing party, but it refrained from undermining the first Oslo agreement. Steven Bayme of the American Jewish Committee put it this way: “Deri was a key player in the Oslo Accords signed with the Palestinians.”
Apparently they are guilty of not shutting down the coalition which would have caused Oslo to fail...
All in all it does seem bad that Shas supported the process. It is my belief that the Rabbi did not think Oslo was a good decision toward the end of his life.
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I remember that discussion, and it still is open in my mind, whether islam rises to avodah zarah or not. I just read through the discussion via your link and you present both arguments, whether it is idolatry to throw stones at kabbah (which is likened to the Roman diety Markolis).
Rather than continuing discussing this in the Rav Ovadiah thread we could continue with that topic back in the Torah section.
I hope it is clear that my opinion on this topic is not the psak halacha or anything. I try to learn what the sages think before forming my own opinion. And learn from any new information...
An interesting article about the pagan origins of Islam and the idolatrous nature of the Ka'abah.. SInce you asked for some articles, I thought I share this one quickly, which caught my eye.
Prophet Muhammad discarded the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Ka’aba with its Black Stone, justifying it with the claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally constructed it. However, there is no historical or archaeological evidence for the existence of the Ka’aba beyond a few hundred years before Muhammad's lifetime. In fact, Muhammad's own words disprove any connection he was attempting to make between Abraham, Ishmael and the Ka’aba.
The Qur'an says Abraham built it:
Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Qur'an 2:125
Muhammed says it was built 40 years prior to the Temple at Jerusalem:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:636
The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. This implies that if Muhammad were to be believed, the Ka’aba must have been built approximately 998-991 BC. But Abraham lived around 2000 BC and both Abraham and Ishmael would have been dead by then.
If Muhammad is correct, then the Qur’an [and therefore Allah] is wrong. But if the Qur’an is correct in stating that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’aba, then Muhammad and the sahih hadith is wrong.
The Ka’aba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It has a wholly pagan heritage. Egyptian Professor and foremost authority on Arabic literature, Dr. Taha Husayn, said the following:
The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons.[1]
Also, according to sahih hadith, Muhammad even considered dismantling it:
Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.
Sahih Bukhari 1:3:128
Worship at the Ka’aba and the kissing of the Black Stone are just the first of many practices adopted from 7th century paganism and repackaged within monotheistic Islam.
Veneration of the Black-stone
The pagan gods of pre-Islamic Arabia were worshipped in the form of rectangular stones or rocks. For example, the pagan deity 'Al-Lat', mentioned in Qur'an 53:19, and believed by pre-Islamic pagans to be one of the daughters of Allah, was once venerated as a cubic rock at Ta'if in Saudi Arabia. An edifice was built over the rock to mark it apart as a house of worship.
Al-lat stood in al-Ta'if, and was more recent than Manah. She was a cubic rock beside which a certain Jew used to prepare his barley porridge (sawiq). Her custody was in the hands of the banu-'Attab ibn-Malik of the Thayif, who had built an edifice over her. [...]She is the idol which God mentioned when He said, "Have you seen Al-lat and al-'Uzza (Surah 53:19)?[2]
Kitab Al-Asnam (The Book of Idols), p 14
"A principal sacred object in Arabian religion was the stone, either a rock outcropping or a large boulder, often a rectangular or irregular black basaltic stone… of numerous baetyls, the best known is the Black-stone of the Ka’aba at Mecca which became the central shrine object in Islam".[3]
Encyclopedia Britannica
There is no denying that the Black Stone was one among many stones and idols venerated at the Ka’aba by the pre-Islamic pagans. The Black Stone was kissed during pre-Islamic pagan worship. Though Muhammad threw out 360 other objects at the Ka’aba, he retained this Black Stone and continued the practice of kissing it. It is this same stone that the pre-Islamic pagans once kissed, that Muslims kiss today when visiting Mecca.
Source:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
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Interesting articles EJa44..
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Maybe we should take this discussion into the Torah section...
Realize I am not arguing to defend Islam, more arguing so that we can understand Judaism and why sometimes things seem unseemly.
Let me bid farewell to the topic of Islam (if I have your permission of course) and say that those beliefs run contrary to my own Jewish beliefs, and that fact will cause many muslims to hate me, so I have to see islam as my enemy. I do not belive that mohamud had any prophecy but rather he was an illiterate sheep shtuper who spread fantastically twisted stories to arabs who didn't know better.
As I stated earlier there are things revealed in our Jewish scriptures which reveal flaws in every man, from the greatest to the smallest. Aside from flaws the Torah also causes us to ask questions about why things are the way they are.
For instance what we were discussing previously reminded me of the fact that our father Yaakov (Jacob) was permitted to erect a pillar of stones (an idolatrous practice according to the Torah we have today). We (Torah Jews of faith) believe that all of our forefathers knew the commandments of the Torah even before it was given at Sinai. This was learned last week when we read Noach, how he knew which animals were Kosher and which were Treif (un-kosher) without Hashem explicitly explaining it. So too Abraham and Isaac kept kosher, and kept the laws without even being told (intuitively).
So why was it ok for Jacob to erect a pillar of stones?
Here is one discussion of the topic:
http://ravkooktorah.org/VAYISHLA58.htm
Vayishlach: Pillars and Sanctuaries
After 20 years of hard labor under his treacherous uncle Laban, Jacob returned safely to the Land of Israel. Jacob succeeded in appeasing his brother Esau, and finally made it back to Bethel.
Bethel was the place where, as Jacob set out to leave the Land of Israel, he dreamt of a ladder reaching to the heavens, of angels, and Divine promises. Now Jacob fulfilled his 20-year-old promise, and erected a pillar (matzeiva) in God's name.
It appears perfectly acceptable for Jacob to erect a pillar. Later on, however, the Torah specifically prohibits all pillars, even to worship God: "Do not erect a sacred pillar, which the Lord your God hates" (Deut. 16:22). What about Jacob's pillar? The Sages explained that serving God through pillars "was beloved in the time of the patriarchs, but abhorred in the time of their descendants."
Why did the status of pillars change?
To answer this question, we need to examine the difference between a pillar and a sanctuary. A pillar is a single large stone, focal point of Divine service, where all may gather around it. A sanctuary, on the other hand, is a house of worship, a building where the worshippers gather inside of it.
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http://www.aish.com/tp/i/sms/100247889.html
THE PILLAR IN EARLIER TIMES
This explains the basic prohibition, but we still need to investigate why it was permissible for the Avos to construct pillars. Before Yisrael became a nation, the Avos were the whole of klal Yisrael in microcosm. Each of the three was the torchbearer for monotheism. They were exceptional people who exemplified the message which the Torah and its adherents, klal Yisrael, would bring to the world. Although they were individuals, they personified the values and qualities of an entire nation. Let us adduce several proofs for this concept:
Avraham was one, yet he inherited the land; we are many, and to us the land is given as an inheritance. (Yechezkel 33:24)
Avraham is the one who inherited the land, just as the whole nation was destined to do so. And behold, all of the souls which came out of the loins of Yaakov were seventy soul... (Shemos 1:5)
We note that the seventy descendants of Yaakov are described as just one soul, for Yaakov contained all of the elements of the nation which would generate from him.
Just as the verse says about God, ... and God alone shall be exalted on that day (Yeshayahu 2:17), so too about Yaakov it says, Yaakov was left alone... (Bereishis 32:25). (Bereishis Rabbah 77:1)
This is another proof that Yaakov was considered a single, complete being, similar (of course, only in some limited respect) to the unity and all-inclusiveness of God Himself.
We may thus suggest an explanation for the permissability of the pillar in the times of the Avos. The Avos, as individuals, were a complete nation in themselves. It was thus entirely appropriate for them to offer sacrifices upon, and to worship at, pillars. The single stone of the pillar expresses the service of the individual, which in their case was synonymous with the nation. This helps us to understand why the Canaanites chose the pillar as a means of idolatrous service. Idolaters by definition have no communal unity. They are merely a rabble of selfish individuals worshiping their idols. As such, the pillar, the symbol of personal devotion, is well suited to their needs. In contrast to the seventy "soul" of Yaakov, we find that:
Eisav took his wives and his sons and his daughters and all the souls of his house... (Bereishis 36:6)
Even within his own household, Esav did not attain any measure of unity. We may see him as the paradigm of the idolater. It is now clear why the pillar was attractive to the idolater and, although suitable even for Jewish use in the time of the Avos, remains strictly forbidden to us.
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Maybe we should take this discussion into the Torah section...
Realize I am not arguing to defend Islam, more arguing so that we can understand Judaism and why sometimes things seem unseemly.
Let me bid farewell to the topic of Islam (if I have your permission of course) and say that those beliefs run contrary to my own Jewish beliefs, and that fact will cause many muslims to hate me, so I have to see islam as my enemy. I do not belive that mohamud had any prophecy but rather he was an illiterate sheep shtuper who spread fantastically twisted stories to arabs who didn't know better.
As I stated earlier there are things revealed in our Jewish scriptures which reveal flaws in every man, from the greatest to the smallest. Aside from flaws the Torah also causes us to ask questions about why things are the way they are.
For instance what we were discussing previously reminded me of the fact that our father Yaakov (Jacob) was permitted to erect a pillar of stones (an idolatrous practice according to the Torah we have today). We (Torah Jews of faith) believe that all of our forefathers knew the commandments of the Torah even before it was given at Sinai. This was learned last week when we read Noach, how he knew which animals were Kosher and which were Treif (un-kosher) without Hashem explicitly explaining it. So too Abraham and Isaac kept kosher, and kept the laws without even being told (intuitively).
So why was it ok for Jacob to erect a pillar of stones?
Here is one discussion of the topic:
Of course you have my permission.. I apologize for getting off-topic as others here have done.
I also understand you are a seeker of the truth and I can respect that. I, myself, would like to just keep the record straight on the truth of Islam. There is so much misinformation going around today, I feel obliged to discuss the topics when I am confronted with them.
Your last post was very interesting, but I must admit, it is a bit beyond me.. I am trying to understand still why it was tolerated for Ya'akov to built the pillar of stones? Anyhow, perhaps it is, as you say, a good topic to discuss in the Torah section.
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About Shas, Eli Yishai is relatively right wing, remember he was born in Tunis and lived among the Arabs, plus he did serve in the IDF.
Aryeh Deri, is a extreme leftist, who absolutely and pretty openly hates non-Sefardic Jews. So since Deri and Yishai are both currently running Shas the party tends to bounce back and forth. Though the parties most extreme Left days were when Deri was solidly in charge.
But Rav Ovadia was more ambiguous. He did give the Halachic sanction for surrendering land by claiming if it saves lives its permissable. Though this ruling went against centuries of consistent Halachic rulings following the opinion of the Ramban in Sefer HaMitzvos MItzvah #4 that conquest of Eretz Yisrael is a national obligation that overrides danger to life. Though I have heard that following the Oslo war Rav Ovadia zt'l withdrew this ruling. We should also remember that Rav Ovadia did push Deri out once Deri's corruption became public.
Rabbi Kahane zt'l held according to the Ramban. Which is why we can never even if it would bring true peace surrender even one inch of Eretz Yisrael.
All that being said Rav Ovadia zt'l did many amazing things for the Jewish people and for reviving Torah. I truly believe rulings he made that I think were misguided were made with good intentions and with Ahavat Yisrael.
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That is what you believe. We believe quite a bit differently. Let us leave it at that. Unless you want to explain what kind of Jew is damned to eternal hell or something like that. But we are prepared...
I'm speaking solely from history. Lol I wasn't trying to convince anyone to believe in the trinity. But saying the trinity wasn't an early Christian concept, that's bad history.
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All in all it does seem bad that Shas supported the process. It is my belief that the Rabbi did not think Oslo was a good decision toward the end of his life.
No evidence of this whatsoever.
To the contrary. No apology, no teshuva, no change. They also continued to support all thesteps of oslo such as prisoner releases giving it false halachik veneer.
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About Shas, Eli Yishai is relatively right wing, remember he was born in Tunis and lived among the Arabs, plus he did serve in the IDF.
Aryeh Deri, is a extreme leftist, who absolutely and pretty openly hates non-Sefardic Jews. So since Deri and Yishai are both currently running Shas the party tends to bounce back and forth. Though the parties most extreme Left days were when Deri was solidly in charge.
But Rav Ovadia was more ambiguous. He did give the Halachic sanction for surrendering land by claiming if it saves lives its permissable. Though this ruling went against centuries of consistent Halachic rulings following the opinion of the Ramban in Sefer HaMitzvos MItzvah #4 that conquest of Eretz Yisrael is a national obligation that overrides danger to life. Though I have heard that following the Oslo war Rav Ovadia zt'l withdrew this ruling. We should also remember that Rav Ovadia did push Deri out once Deri's corruption became public.
Rabbi Kahane zt'l held according to the Ramban. Which is why we can never even if it would bring true peace surrender even one inch of Eretz Yisrael.
All that being said Rav Ovadia zt'l did many amazing things for the Jewish people and for reviving Torah. I truly believe rulings he made that I think were misguided were made with good intentions and with Ahavat Yisrael.
Sorry but some of these contentions are laughable. He "Pushed Deri out?" He was going to jail!
And then he welcomed him back in after the jailtime. I think your post is a serious kind of delusion.
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What is clear to me, in my mind is what happened in the Torah to Avraham and Yitzhak after he made a concession to Avimelech.
Concessions to give up land for any potential for peace will inevitably lead the sacrifice of the children of the next generations when that peace is no more.
Again, in my opinion, Rav Ovadia Yosef made a critical mistake with Oslo, unless proven otherwise. He was not an evil man, Gd forbid. And in the next world his soul will realize the error. As for all of his followers, may every single one of them embrace Kahane's Torah.
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Rabbi Kahane zt'l held according to the Ramban. Which is why we can never even if it would bring true peace surrender even one inch of Eretz Yisrael.
Are you sure its by the RambaN and not others? Because I think their would be a problem going by the RambaN because he held (and I need to double check but it seems soo) that the Urim Ve Tumin are needed even in a Milhemit Misswah. RambaM on the other hand does not mention it.
Soo going by the RambaN would pose a halahic impediment if you will since these are not available today.
http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/salt-shemot/20-10tetzaveh.htm
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Muman613 you asked for more info on the Shas party's role in voting in favor of the phony peace process.
I tried to find an article in English to make it easier for the readers, but
it was easier for me to find the source in Hebrew so someone is going to have to translate
בינואר 1997 התקיימה הצבעה על תוכניתו של ראש הממשלה בנימין נתניהו להעביר חלקים מהעיר חברון לרשות הפלסטינית, במסגרת הסדר. ש"ס הצביעה בעד ההסדר.
source: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%99 (http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%99)
The article is describing the the support of the Shas party for the surrender of most of Chevrone (Hebron) to Arafat's Terrorists.
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For the Benefit of those that don't know what exactly Bibi and Shas did to Chevrone {Hebron}
http://www.hebron.com/english/article.php?id=478
Bibi's Hebron conundrum
David Wilder
March 08, 2009
On September 7, 1995 Binyamin Netanyahu, candidate for Prime Minister, while visiting Hebron, issued the following statement:
The Jewish settlement will remain in Hebron permanently. If someone tries to take it away, my friends and I will be here, and they will have to take us away as well. It will be a fatal mistake to bring hundreds of armed Palestinian policemen here, and there will be a small area where the Jews can pass and where the police and IDF can operate. If there will be a conflict, the IDF will not be able to function and will quickly collide with the Palestinian forces. This is a prescription for tragedy. There is one body responsible, and that has to be the IDF".
On May 13, 1996 he declared "redeployment should be put off until the final settlement. Hebron is a very complicated problem. It is the oldest Jewish settlement in the world, and the Jewish community there is in great danger. We all remember what happened in 1929. It is preferable that such a complex matter be carefully considered at the final status talks."
Yet, in early 1997, during a press conference dealing with the Hebron Accords, Netanyahu proclaimed: "the ideological concepts he grew up believing are "not all within reach anymore," necessitating "hard decisions and generating a "meeting ground between vision and reality. This is leadership."
On January 14, 1997, Prime Minister Netanyahu, together with Yassar Arafat, signed the Hebron Accords, which were implemented six days later. Those accords divided Hebron into two sections, leaving over 80% of the city under the security control of the Palestinian Authority. Amongst the land abandoned were the Abu-Sneneh Hills, overlooking Hebron's Jewish community to the south, and Harat a-Shech, to the north. It was from these hills that Arafat's gunman terrorized Hebron for over two and a half years, shooting day and night, into people's apartments, cars and walking on the street. Abu Sneneh became infamous following the murder of ten month old Shalhevet Pass, exactly eight years ago.
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Muman613 you asked for more info on the Shas party's role in voting in favor of the phony peace process.
I tried to find an article in English to make it easier for the readers, but
it was easier for me to find the source in Hebrew so someone is going to have to translate
בינואר 1997 התקיימה הצבעה על תוכניתו של ראש הממשלה בנימין נתניהו להעביר חלקים מהעיר חברון לרשות הפלסטינית, במסגרת הסדר. ש"ס הצביעה בעד ההסדר.
source: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%99 (http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%99)
The article is describing the the support of the Shas party for the surrender of most of Chevrone (Hebron) to Arafat's Terrorists.
I found this on the wiki you posted edu... I cannot understand the google translation of the article but maybe it contains some information which you can bring and explain here...
http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%99-31.html
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As for ROY, yes he was a very knowledgable Bible scholar but he used that knowledge for some very bad things, like trying to find "justification" in the Jewish Scriptures for "land for peace". I think that's worse than just being a regular secular Israeli leftist to be quite honest. It's similar to when so-called Christians try to make an anti-Israel argument from the Bible.
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As for ROY, yes he was a very knowledgable Bible scholar but he used that knowledge for some very bad things, like trying to find "justification" in the Jewish Scriptures for "land for peace". I think that's worse than just being a regular secular Israeli leftist to be quite honest. It's similar to when so-called Christians try to make an anti-Israel argument from the Bible.
I don't know if I agree with you. I have not seen the responsa which the Rav wrote.
There is a firm concept in the Torah concerning Pikuach Nefesh (saving lives). The concept is so important it is the basis of the rulings which allow a Jew to violate the Sabbath in order to save a life. I cannot argue whether there was any halachic support for suggesting 'land for peace' is a valid case of Pikuach Nefesh, and while I disagree with it, I cannot suggest he didn't know what he was saying or doing. He made his ruling based upon his learning of the Torah, and for this we must respect him (while not always agreeing with him).
I do not believe that the finding of Rabbi Ovadia was anti-Israel as all religious Jews are zionists in their hearts. This man emigrated to the Holy Land at the age of four, from Bagdad Iraq and was a leading Rabbi in the land for may years. To compare him to anti-zionist 'christians' is a little much.
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I do not believe that the finding of Rabbi Ovadia was anti-Israel as all religious Jews are zionists in their hearts. This man emigrated to the Holy Land at the age of four, from Bagdad Iraq and was a leading Rabbi in the land for may years. To compare him to anti-zionist 'christians' is a little much.
His whole family was in the Irgun, literally bombing the British. He supported them as well with words (although not physically himself because his whole life was literally in the books). Its in the documentary of his life I posted earlier, his brother talks about it).
Here is the exact part
http://youtu.be/Oqfb45DrV3k?t=3m12s
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בס''ד
The treachous and corrupt scum of Shas are responsible for the Oslo catastrophe in which huge sections of the most sacred parts of Biblical Israel were handed over to the Muslim Nazi terrorist mass murderers.
Without Shas, the Rabin-Peres regime of treason did not have a Knesset majority. Shas voted against all "no confidence" votes that would have brought the Rabin-Peres regime down. At the time, Shas was rightly condemned by the vast majority of Israeli rabbis, including the son and the grandson of HaRav Ovadia.
The money-grubbing filth in Shas brought this bloody horror on the Jewish people in exchange for massive funding for their institutions.
The same Shas vermin that supported inviting the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat and 80,000 armed Muslim Nazi terrorists into the land of Israel under the Oslo accords - the same Shas traitors were directly responsible for expelling me from the Jewish homeland. My expulsion order was signed by Shas Interior Minister Eli Suissa yimach shmo vezichro. Suissa, a protégé of Aryeh Deri yimach shmo vezichro, met with the PLO terrorist mass murderers while he was expelling me.
HaRav Ovadia himself was a very learned Torah scholar and we should not curse him out of respect for the Torah. But his rulings on Oslo and many other issues caused terrible harm to the Jewish people and led to the murder of 1800 Jewish men, women and children.
As for HaRav Ovadia's corrupt followers in Shas, they are evil traitors and we are permitted to curse them. May Hashem do to them what they have done to the Jewish people.
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The issue of this thread was the death of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, not to discuss Shas.
I agree with Chaim that nobody should curse the Rabbi as we are supposed to show respect to those who study Torah.
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The issue of this thread was the death of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, not to discuss Shas.
I agree with Chaim that nobody should curse the Rabbi as we are supposed to show respect to those who study Torah.
Chaim was pointing out that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef was the real driving force between Shas. He was the inspiration behind its leaders and its philosophy.
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Chaim was pointing out that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef was the real driving force between Shas. He was the inspiration behind its leaders and its philosophy.
It sounds to me that he was more the one who provided a halachic reason for Shas policy.
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It sounds to me that he was more the one who provided a halachic reason for Shas policy.
HaRav Kahane (ztl) should have been the driving engine behind the largest voting bloc of religious Jewish voters and politicians in Israel, not Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.
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Of course I agree. If Rabbi Kahane rose to power as he should have, the Jewish people and the Jewish state would be in a lot better shape today.
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Chaim has toned down/matured his opinion of R.Ovadiya Yosef since he made this audio clip with plain-talking Englishman Yosef ben Meir z"l in 2002
http://k2s.cc/file/52548f7eb858a/shas.MP3
"There's something that is just so evil, just an example of evil: Shas, that unbelievably evil party in Israel! The head of Shas Ovadiya Yosef, who's real name is Ovadiya Kessef, which means Ovadiya Money, this degenerate who is the spiritual leader of Shas, he speaks 'bububububbububub', you can't even understand a word he says, and I am a fluent Hebrew speaker. He mumbles like a moron and he's completely insane, he's senile, he goes rambling off, and they say oohh the profound words of our leader!" (Chaim ben Pesach, February 2002)
The question is: how should you treat Orthodox Jewish leaders, who know Torah & Halacha better than us, keep all the mitzvos, have thousands of followers, may even be tzaddikim, yet who fatally err on the one point of the Kovod of Eretz Yisrael, on "Land for Peace", and whose support for Oslo cost droves of Jews their lives? eg R.Ovadiya Yosef, R.Eliezer Shach, Belzer Rebbe, R.Israel Lau, Chief Rabbi Jakobovits, R.Norman Lamm etc etc
Should we still treat them with some respect?
Or should we revile them like Korach, the Spies, Shevna Cohen Gadol, Yerovam ben Nevot etc etc, whom although they had good points and may yet be redeemed at the Resurrection, Hashem gave his final stamp as one of opprobrium?
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Chaim has toned down/matured his opinion of R.Ovadiya Yosef since he made this clip with Yosef ben Meir in 2002
http://k2s.cc/file/52548f7eb858a/shas.MP3
"There's something that is just so evil, just an example of evil: Shas, that unbelievably evil party in Israel! The head of Shas Ovadiya Yosef, who's real name is Ovadiya Kessef, which means Ovadiya Money, this degenerate who is the spiritual leader of Shas, he speaks bububububbububub, you can't even understand a word he says, and I am a fluent Hebrew speaker. He mumbles like a moron and he's completely insane, he's senile, he goes rambling off, and they say oohh the profound words of our leader!"
Why would you do that? You know what kills me... People act like if someone said something, or did something in their past, that is who they are today. People change their opinions, their thoughts, their ways... I use to do a lot of bad things. Does that mean I do them today? No! That's like the lady using the enword 20 years ago, and now gets fired for it.
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The fact is that I think Chaim was right all along and has no need to mollify or recant.
In Olam Haba right now 1500 dead Jewish souls are asking Ovadiya Yossef:"Why did you support Oslo?! We would still be alive if not for you!"
And this aside from Hashem being exceedingly angry with Yosef for supporting the ceding of Israel to the Yishmaelites. How angry? Maybe even enough to totally undo 93 years of Torah learning and mitzvos. Maybe even enough to deny him Olam Haba itself!
Even Abraham was punished (Breishit Rabbah 54) for making a treaty with the Avimelech that allowed the Philistines to dwell in peace and sovereignty over a part of Eretz Yisrael. "G-d was furious over this matter" (Rashbam, Breishit 22).
Just imagine how things would be totally different today if Ovadiya Yosef & Shas had actively opposed Oslo!
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Yerusha- you mentioned Avraham and the wrong Peace treaty he made, will you claim that he lost his Olam Haba for making the peace treaty?
And if I was you I would be the one terrible concerned about your Olam Haba for purposely trying to stir a Machloket and bringing something that someone else doesn't say any longer (with good reasons).
And the people who died since Oslo (May their blood be revenged) (not that I support it in ANY way) died because of the direct actions of the Arabs and not because of Jews. Oslo or not the Arabs did and always wanted to murder Jews one way or another, at one time or another. The only solution is to get them out.
Even big leaders make critical mistakes, you already mentioned Avraham, I can also mention King David where many more died because of some of the actions at that generation will you claim he lost his Olam Haba? And many many other examples with very good leaders as well (like the different Shoftim- Judges of the Torah and Kings as well- such as the best King Hezekia).
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Also it was mentioned about Rav Schach and Rabbi Ovadia supposedly being a puppet of him. 1) that isn't true and 2) Rav Schach from what I know was against Oslo and against joining any government with the left (Rabin and Co.) soo how could one even make such a claim?
(second and third paragraphs down).
http://books.google.com/books?id=T4Y7PT28-w8C&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=rabbi+schach+and+oslo&source=bl&ots=cah1AwT4aD&sig=NqclpZl3Dmx7mWGtKrUMOZjMcUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9ZxUUtSVBK354APb4IDYAQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=rabbi%20schach%20and%20oslo&f=false
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R.Binyamin Kahane used to refer to "the so-called Gedolim of this generation", and wrote an article "Who are the Gedolim?".
At the moment there is a hysteria, most of it hype, about R.Ovadiya Yosef. I believe that history will show that he was in the category of "the so-called Gedolim".
As for Olam Haba, Hashem judges higher men differently eg Chazal say that King Solomon was going to lose his share in the Afterlife just for writing Sefer Koheles, but retained it because he redeemed himself with its very last verse!
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בס''ד
The treachous and corrupt scum of Shas are responsible for the Oslo catastrophe in which huge sections of the most sacred parts of Biblical Israel were handed over to the Muslim Nazi terrorist mass murderers.
Without Shas, the Rabin-Peres regime of treason did not have a Knesset majority. Shas voted against all "no confidence" votes that would have brought the Rabin-Peres regime down. At the time, Shas was rightly condemned by the vast majority of Israeli rabbis, including the son and the grandson of HaRav Ovadia.
The money-grubbing filth in Shas brought this bloody horror on the Jewish people in exchange for massive funding for their institutions.
The same Shas vermin that supported inviting the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat and 80,000 armed Muslim Nazi terrorists into the land of Israel under the Oslo accords - the same Shas traitors were directly responsible for expelling me from the Jewish homeland. My expulsion order was signed by Shas Interior Minister Eli Suissa yimach shmo vezichro. Suissa, a protégé of Aryeh Deri yimach shmo vezichro, met with the PLO terrorist mass murderers while he was expelling me.
HaRav Ovadia himself was a very learned Torah scholar and we should not curse him out of respect for the Torah. But his rulings on Oslo and many other issues caused terrible harm to the Jewish people and led to the murder of 1800 Jewish men, women and children.
As for HaRav Ovadia's corrupt followers in Shas, they are evil traitors and we are permitted to curse them. May Hashem do to them what they have done to the Jewish people.
I respect what you write here Chaim.. What I don't get, and pardon my ignorance as I am not those most devout and well-learned Jewish person, but why shouldn't a learned and revered Torah scholar be condemn and chastised 7 times over for committing a crime against the Jewish state rather than getting a free meal ticket? I mean, a person with the knowledge and influence of Rav Ovadia Yosef has the power of life and death in the Jewish community, almost like a king. What he says could almost be considered as good as Law. If a man of his greatness makes such a decree against th well-being of the Jewish people, such as giving our land and weaponj to traitors , resulting in the deaths of innocent Jews, shouldn't he face an even greater punishment, since a person with his intellect, knowledge and oversight from Hashem himself should have been an even greater defender of the Jewish race than those who are simply laymen or citizens going on our own intuitions.
I don't know , but Rav Ovadia Yosef and his Shas party has left a bad taste in my mouth. I pray I can be forgiven if I am a bad Jew, but I cannot even respect the man as a Torah scholar who would bring the death of his Jewish people and nation. Anybody, who makes war against Israel, whether it be the King of Israel , himself, will sooner or later endure the wrath of Hashem, IMO.. Ariel Sharon could be a fine example of this.. A man who at one time was a proud and vigilant defender of the Jewish people now turned his guns on his own people, forcing them from their homes to empower and give
Why should Rav Ovadia Yosef be given a free pass for his wrongdoings and not even condemned to a greater degree, for being a man so well-learned and using his wisdom and influence to lead the Jewish people on to the path of destruction?
I cannot support any person who supports the arming our enemies, giving away land that doesn't belong to us, but to Hashem himself, as this land is Holy and was sealed in a sacred Covenant. As much as I respect wise and holy men, I do realize they are human beings and not Hashem, himself. A king , a high priest, a great scholar a leader, general or anyone with great influence should be held to a high esteem but also, in my opinion, be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.
I apologize for anyone I might offend by writing this and I am willing to make teshuva if I have done wrong in disrespecting a wise scholar. However, I would like to know why men who are so well-learned do not endure the same wrath (or even greater) than the rest of us humans who bring misery and destruction to the Jewish people and nation?
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yerusha- I read that essay you are twisting it. Read it again and post it, I agree 100% with it and that is why I don't rely on just going with the flow and following someone blindly. That is for sure, but what you are doing is lying and twisting the truth and stirring machloket. Also listen to Rav Kahane himself who always preached (And I saw and this is available on video) to respect others even if we disagree with them and he directly spoke about it when he was asked, he said that if someone even follow the Satmar to respect their opinion and those who follow it let them follow it. Soo give me a break.
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I cannot believe the level of disrespect of Torah scholars which takes place on this forum.
Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for us to succeed with such disrespect.
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The fact is that I think Chaim was right all along and has no need to mollify or recant.
In Olam Haba right now 1500 dead Jewish souls are asking Ovadiya Yossef:"Why did you support Oslo?! We would still be alive if not for you!"
And this aside from Hashem being exceedingly angry with Yosef for supporting the ceding of Israel to the Yishmaelites. How angry? Maybe even enough to totally undo 93 years of Torah learning and mitzvos. Maybe even enough to deny him Olam Haba itself!
Even Abraham was punished (Breishit Rabbah 54) for making a treaty with the Avimelech that allowed the Philistines to dwell in peace and sovereignty over a part of Eretz Yisrael. "G-d was furious over this matter" (Rashbam, Breishit 22).
Just imagine how things would be totally different today if Ovadiya Yosef & Shas had actively opposed Oslo!
I am in full agreement with you, Yerusha.. Once again, I believe Rav Ovadiya Yosef is a man who should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. . Obviously, Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Ehud Olmert all support the exact same legislation as Shas and Rav Ovaidya Yosef, yet I doubt anyone would think twice of condemning these politicians for doing this action. Yet, a man who is supposedly a tzedik and well-learned does the same thing?? Unlike politicians who are selfish, greedy and corrupt by nature, this man should have known better and he influenced many more people who otherwise would have not accept such a decree. Contrary to disobeying a politician, people felt by disobeying him, they were disobeying G-d, himself, since he was a revered Torah scholar. To me this is a much greater evil.
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I cannot believe the level of disrespect of Torah scholars which takes place on this forum.
Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for us to succeed with such disrespect.
But about the people the Jewish souls that died as a result of this Torah scholar's decrees of giving away Jewish land and arming and aiding our enemies? The enemies of Hashem, himself??
Remember, Muman, you lost a brother, what about the people who lost their brothers as a result of the decrees of Shas, which was supported by Rav Ovadia Yosef, himself?
I also don't think Torah scholars deserve deity like status.. THey are human beings.. They error, they are not infallible. They are to be respected, but with respect also comes greater judgment , IMO.. A man who holds the keys to the vault that contains the wealth of the community will be the one to bear the blame if the vault is broken into and the money stolen.
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Again I think ppl missed his psak din (and I dont agree with it). His whole premise was to save Jewish lives. You are calling him evil for that? Others would then call him evil and would say- just for land you are willing to kill many Jewish lives.
You are twisting and thinking that the whole intent was to harm Jewish lives? :o
And yes even great people can and did make mistakes. Perhaps someone who is too involved in learning can and does miss certain truths about the world and the way the world works. And their is wisdom "on the street" if you will that sometimes great scholars can and do miss.
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Yerusha here I did the work for you (well its against you).
http://kahane.blogspot.com/2007/06/who-is-gadol-and-how-to-choose-rabbi.html
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Rav Schach from what I know was against Oslo and against joining any government with the left (Rabin and Co.) soo how could one even make such a claim?
R.Shach and his Degel HaTorah supported Oslo (as did most Haredi leaders at the time), mainly out of pique just because Chabad opposed it as the Lubavitcher Rebbe was strongly against "Land for Peace"! Shas of course did it for the large amounts of money thrown at them to support it!
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1990-03-20/news/9001300444_1_rabbi-ovadia-yosef-shas-party-yitzhak-shamir
If the Lubavitcher Rebbe had not been silenced by a stroke in 1992, Oslo in 1993 would never have seen the light of day, such was his worldwide influence even on Haredim who weren't Lubavitchers!
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As a woman of Iranian Jewish ancestry, let me just say that there are some Persian customs I hate, and there are some I like.
Obviously, I like the emphasis on family, on manners, and being a good host, to name a few. There are other customs I also dislike.
But I have to say, I have never seen among the Iranian Jews the near worship of rabbis that I see here, and other places. And I'm probably going to get flamed, but I respect them for that.
In fact, there was a time when one of our Synagogues in Great Neck didn't even have a rabbi. I don't know how long that was for. But there were men educated enough to still conduct the services. Now we do have them though.
There's also one man in our community who has the rabbinical smicha (ordination) who is not the official rabbi of the Synagogues. But he always gives the eulogies at funeral services. He's a very bright, educated man.
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Again I think ppl missed his psak din (and I dont agree with it). His whole premise was to save Jewish lives. You are calling him evil for that? Others would then call him evil and would say- just for land you are willing to kill many Jewish lives.
You are twisting and thinking that the whole intent was to harm Jewish lives? :o
And yes even great people can and did make mistakes. Perhaps someone who is too involved in learning can and does miss certain truths about the world and the way the world works. And their is wisdom "on the street" if you will that sometimes great scholars can and do miss.
Well, not to twist the discussion, but didn't Yitzhak Rabin and other politicians, as well as liberal Jewish groups think they are saving Jewish lives by giving away our land and arming our enemies in the name of "World Peace". I mean, who are we to condemn Shalom Akshav, Rabin, Olmert and the other lefties for doing what they thought was in best interests of the Jewish people anymore than Rav Ovadiya Yosef for doing what he thought was best. Whether he uses Torah or not as the means for helping the Jewish people , I cannot say his intentions were much different than the others who believe in giving away land and arming our enemies will make them more peaceful. The only difference , IMO, between Rav Ovadiya's intentions and that other other leftists is that he believed giving away our land and arming our enemies came from the Torah and was the Will of Hashem, himself, whereas people like Rabin, Shalom Akshav and the other leftists are secular, naive atheists who do what they do out of emotions and fear. Not to say, I don't think Ovadiya was acting rationally.. What person could ever rationally think giving away land and arming the enemies of Hashem is truly ever in the best interest of the Jewish people?
Didn't we learn anything back in Europe when it turned out that those box trains were not bringing us to work labor camps where we thought we would be treated well, fed and given good paying jobs to help the Chancellor and save the German economy. Many Rabbis also calculated it was in our best interest to go to those camps.
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But about the people the Jewish souls that died as a result of this Torah scholar's decrees of giving away Jewish land and arming and aiding our enemies? The enemies of Hashem, himself??
Remember, Muman, you lost a brother, what about the people who lost their brothers as a result of the decrees of Shas, which was supported by Rav Ovadia Yosef, himself?
I also don't think Torah scholars deserve deity like status.. THey are human beings.. They error, they are not infallible. They are to be respected, but with respect also comes greater judgment , IMO.. A man who holds the keys to the vault that contains the wealth of the community will be the one to bear the blame if the vault is broken into and the money stolen.
I do not believe Ovadia Yosef was responsible for Oslo. I have not seen any evidence of this. The issue which he decided was whether there is a leniency concerning giving land in return for peace from enemies. His belief was that it is permitted to do so, based on the idea of Pikuach Nefesh.
I have said this enough times and dont want to keep repeating it, but Pikuach Nefesh is a real principle and may have had application to this issue. If there was a possibility of a lasting peace maybe it could be possible to give land. I am not a sage of the calibre of Rabbi Yosef was, so I have to read his opinion and compare it to what other sages have said on the issue.
I think it is wrong for Rabbis to become involved with politics. Politics has a way of corrupting those involved with it.
I will not curse this Rabbi, and I feel sorry for those who cherished his teaching.
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Lisa -"the near worship of rabbis that I see here, and other places. "
How do you even go from what I or Muman or others said that the intent was not evil to the general respect one needs to have to the Torah and Hachamim to the "near worship of Rabbis" ? Where is the connection? I don't even follow the Rav, but how does someone compare him or others of that caliber to some dummy on the street? I really dont understand the connection?
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As for Olam Haba, Hashem judges higher men differently eg Chazal say that King Solomon was going to lose his share in the Afterlife just for writing Sefer Koheles, but retained it because he redeemed himself with its very last verse!
Actually correction- Chazal said that they wouldn't include the Sefer (as part of Tannach) if not for the last line.
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I don't think anyone on the forum worships or even follows the Rabbi closely...
I am operating on the principles of respecting a Talmid Chocham as brought down by Rambam...
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http://www.nishma.org/articles/insight/insight5767-33.htm
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The path to God is, thus, through kavod talmid chacham, but what exactly is the nature of this concept as understood within the context of this verse. A review of Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Talmud Torah, chapters 5,6,7, where the laws of respecting Torah scholars are discussed, would seem to indicate that there are really three categories of respect found within the realm of kavod talmid chacham. One focuses on the unique kavod that one must have for his teacher. This respect is personal; it emerges from the world of Torah study that was shared between rebbi, teacher, and talmid, student. Another focuses on the unique kavod due the Torah leader or universal scholar – the gadol. This respect is communal; it reflects the important role of Torah in guiding the nation. There is, however, another area of kavod talmid chacham, one that simply reflects the respect for Torah itself. This is the nature of the respect that is being described in Devarim 4:4. It is not centred in the personal or in one’s relationships in learning.7 The verse is not describing how one should attempt to marry his daughter to his rebbi. It is also not based in the communal. The verse is also not describing how one should marry his daughter to a gadol. The verse is stating that one should respect Torah study and Torah knowledge so that one wishes to have as a member of the family one who embodies limud haTorah. There is a base principle in Torah, one that is actually at the core of our desire to connect to God, and that is to respect Torah knowledge, respect the Torah housed within the human being.
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It is a mitzvah not to denigrate a Talmid Chacham:
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/menachos/insites/mn-dt-099.htm
Perhaps the answer is based on the next words of the Gemara here, which says that one may not be disrespectful to a Talmid Chacham who forgot his learning. The Gemara derives this from the fact that the broken Luchos (compared to a Talmid Chacham who forgot his learning) were also treated with respect and placed in the Aron. However, if this is learned from the broken Luchos, then why does the Gemara phrase the requirement to treat such a Talmid Chacham with respect in the negative, saying that say that one may not disgrace him? The Gemara should say that one is "required to honor him," just as one is required to give honor to the broken Luchos!
The answer is that the fact that the Torah does not explicitly command us to put the broken Luchos in the Aron implies that there is no Mitzvah to give honor to the broken Luchos. Rather, the requirement is to avoid disgracing them; if they would be left out of the Aron, they would be disgraced. Since the Torah is not giving a Mitzvah to honor the broken Luchos but merely to avoid disgracing them, it teaches this obligation through an implication and not explicitly.
Similarly, there is no Mitzvah to actively give honor to a Talmid Chacham who forgot his learning. Rather, the Mitzvah is to avoid disgracing him and treating him with disrespect. (Mordechai Zvi Dicker)
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" I mean, who are we to condemn Shalom Akshav, Rabin, and the other lefties for doing what they thought was in best interests of the Jewish people anymore than Rav Ovadiya Yosef for doing what he thought was best. "
How do you compare someone who literally shot at Jews and did things deliberately against the Jewish people like Rabin and "shalom achshav" to someone who freed thousands of women from being Agunot (women who are "trapped" and cannot remarry because their husbands were in a war and its hard to determine if they died or not) and went through the cases case by case spending a lot of time and effort doing everything to investigate and free those women to remarry again and have a life (just one example).
Or how they fight against the Torah and preach against it, compare that to someone who built many many Yeshivot and got many Sefardic Jews to come back to Judaism (Shabbat, Kashrut, holidays, modesty, Jewish day school learning etc.) ? And who's life was for the Torah and writing books that will be used for generations to come like the Shulhan Aruch? Where does the comparison begin?
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" I mean, who are we to condemn Shalom Akshav, Rabin, and the other lefties for doing what they thought was in best interests of the Jewish people anymore than Rav Ovadiya Yosef for doing what he thought was best. "
How do you compare someone who literally shot at Jews and did things deliberately against the Jewish people like Rabin and "shalom achshav" to someone who freed thousands of women from being Agunot (women who are "trapped" and cannot remarry because their husbands were in a war and its hard to determine if they died or not) and went through the cases case by case spending a lot of time and effort doing everything to investigate and free those women to remarry again and have a life (just one example).
Or how they fight against the Torah and preach against it, compare that to someone who built many many Yeshivot and got many Sefardic Jews to come back to Judaism (Shabbat, Kashrut, holidays, modesty, Jewish day school learning etc.) ? And who's life was for the Torah and writing books that will be used for generations to come like the Shulhan Aruch? Where does the comparison begin?
You are correct, I have overlooked some of the great things he has done.. I suppose I let my emotions shadow some of the great achievements he has made.. Book knowledge alone will not give me respect for man, but helping his people, especially through this knowledge and wisdom he possesses is something I will greatly admire. However, just as I greatly admire and honor the great deeds done by such honorable and well-learned men, I also loathe and hate men with such knowledge and influence who commit horrible atrocities. I will not say Rav Ovadia Yosef, partook in the Oslo ACcords, as Muman, yourself and others pointed out that perhaps there is misinformation to the actual part he played in the whole ordeal.
I will refrain further as I want to investigate in more depth the part Rav Ovadia Yosef, himself, actually played in the Oslo accords. Please accept my apologies.
Maybe, someone (or Chaim, himself) can explain Chaim's sour feelings towards Rav Ovadia Yosef? Chaim's testimony about the Shas betrayal against him was very agonizing for me to read.
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I am not defending Shas at all... I only defend the honor of a Torah sage who has done a lot of good for Israel and the Sephardic community.
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I am not defending Shas at all... I only defend the honor of a Torah sage who has done a lot of good for Israel and the Sephardic community.
And for many Askenasim as well.
EveryJew- you dont have to follow him and his Psak dinim, you can and should have a Rabbi you respect and have availability to follow (books and can ask questions to). You choose your own Rabbi (obviously someone who isn't deform or anything like that).
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Actually correction- Chazal said that they wouldn't include the Sefer (as part of Tannach) if not for the last line.
Tag, I've been on the forum a long long time. I've seen people come and go here. And some of them were extremely sensitive when it came to people even disagreeing with the late Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.
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בס''ד
I see some people here are saying that support for Oslo was a mere "mistake" that can be forgiven. I disagree. When your actions result in mass murder, that cannot be forgiven because there is no way to bring the dead people back to life in this world. There is no correction for that crime - what we call "kapara" in Judaism. When someone does wrong, the Torah demands not just regret but "kapara" - eliminating the negative consequences of one's actions. For murder, there is no "kapara" in this world.
If HaRav Ovadia had ruled against Oslo, the tragic results might have been prevented. Instead, Shas actively supported the Rabin-Peresite regime of treason. Sacred Jewish land was surrendered to the Nazis of our generation - a chillul Hashem so horrific that I do not believe that there is kapara for this act.
Some are also saying that many Sephardic Jews were brought back to Judaism by HaRav Ovadia and Shas. I strongly disagree. First of all, for every Jew who was brought back, several other Jews were turned off by seeing "rabbis" like Aryeh Deri yimach shmo engaging in extortion, racketeering, bribery and the most heinous forms of public corruption. Deri was placed in charge of Shas by HaRav Ovadia.
Here is a Hebrew video that we did showing Uri Avneri yimach shmo saying that "Deri was even more extreme than I am". Avneri has called for the destruction of the state of Israel and offered to serve as a "human shield" to guard his friend Yasser Arafat. Deri and Avneri worked together for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NGVw1qaA5o
HaRav Ovadia's wife and other family members support the "Geneva initiative" of Yossi Beilin yimach shmo in which Israel goes back to the suicidal pre-1967 borders and then even within those borders allows Arabs to come flooding into the tiny Jewish state. In the following Hebrew video, we have Nadia Matar from "Women in Green" exposing the treason of Harav Ovadia's extreme left-wing wife:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cFNWOXx4sM
BTW what Uri Avneri says in the first video is that in order to get Sephardim to support Israeli suicide, the extreme left needed a Sephardic Jew like Deri. That is what Shas did to the Sephardim - they were once overwhelmingly right-wing but many have been convinced by HaRav Ovadia that we can surrender Jewish land. This is the "Judaism" that Shas preaches to the Sephardim - "Judaism" that believes in national suicide and cowardice.
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Rabbi Ovadia Yosefs Psak Din on Torah is accepted my the majority of the Orthodox world. While I certainly understand Chaims position I also understand that virtually the entire Torah Jewish world considers this man a Gadol. It is sad that this kind of division has been created.
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/About.aspx
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=770
http://www.learntorah.com/lt-search-result.aspx?speaker=24
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/Live_Organ_Donations_1.html
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/14-15%20Applying%20Cosmetics%20on%20Shabbat%20and%20Yom%20Tov%202.htm
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I do not hear very many Orthodox Rabbis today praising the mistake of Oslo. Most, even those who may have supported it initially, have realized the error of their reasoning. I don't think many right-wing religious nationalists have been influenced by the position of the Rabbi. I don't know about the Sephardic community, but as far as religious zionists, I doubt they have been swayed.
http://ohr.edu/453
Oslo criminals must be brought to justice!
Thus reads one of the most popular graffiti slogans to be found on walls throughout Israel.
Although this may be viewed as a particularly harsh indictment of the Israeli leaders who made the deal that created the terrorist-ridden Palestine Authority, it is indicative of a trend in public opinion. A recent poll showed that about two-thirds of the populace think that Oslo was a tragic mistake.
Without passing judgment on the architects of the Oslo Accords, who may well have had the best intentions, there is no escape from condemning their misguided thinking that an agreement with terrorists pledged to the destruction of the Jewish state would result in what they so naively termed a New Middle East.
The Middle East today is the same Middle East of yesteryear in so many ways. Today, just as it was when Moshe addressed the Children of Israel three millennia ago, as they stood on the threshold of the land promised to them by Hashem, a tiny Jewish nation is threatened by hostile neighbors. This great leader, as he took leave of the people he led for forty years, provided them with a perspective which would enable them to not only survive all the troubles which would befall them but to actually grow as a result.
http://theyeshiva.net/Article/View/176/Israels-Greatest-Mistake
And third, in probably the greatest political mistake of a modern country, Israel resurrected the PLO in 1993, negotiated the Oslo peace agreements, withdrew from most of the West Bank and much of Gaza, supplied weapons and money to its foes for a police force, and allowed a mighty terror infrastructure to be built in its own back yard. When the first Israeli bus exploded in 1994, and the PLO did nothing to stop it, Israel had the opportunity to liberate itself from the deadly illusion that peace was on the horizon and completely cut down the terror foundations in the West Bank and Gaza. Instead, Israel showed restraint. During the next 10 years, rivers of blood flowed in the Holy Land. Thousands of innocent Jews and Arabs have lost their lives or been maimed forever.
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Actually correction- Chazal said that they wouldn't include the Sefer (as part of Tannach) if not for the last line.
The men of the Great Assembly proposed including Solomon in the list of men who have no share in the Afterlife and could not be dissuaded by a vision of his father David nor by Heavenly fire, until a Bat Kol warned them off (Sanhedrin 104).
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Rabbi Ovadia Yosefs Psak Din on Torah is accepted my the majority of the Orthodox world. While I certainly understand Chaims position I also understand that virtually the entire Torah Jewish world considers this man a Gadol. It is sad that this kind of division has been created.
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/About.aspx
http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=770
http://www.learntorah.com/lt-search-result.aspx?speaker=24
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/Live_Organ_Donations_1.html
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/14-15%20Applying%20Cosmetics%20on%20Shabbat%20and%20Yom%20Tov%202.htm
בס''ד
His piskei din are accepted when it comes to issues like how to slaughter chickens. But on the life and death issue of surrendering Jewish land to Arab Muslim Nazis, his positions are most certainly not accepted by the vast majority of rabbis. The vast majority of rabbis were bitterly opposed to his support for the Oslo catastrophe - even his own son and his own grandson (both of whom are rabbis) came out against him on that issue and are against the evil Shas party. Here is HaRav Ovadia's son HaRav Yaakov where he condemns Shas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcvKGcNRZE0
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We also must not forget that that Rav Ovadia Yosef was a puppet of the evil R'Elazar Shach who maligned both the Luavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L,ZY"A,HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik,ZT"L,ZYA & HaRav Adin Steinsaltz,Shilt"a.
What were some of Shach's accomplishments?
Here are some:
Creating a generation of welfare cases & draft dodgers.
Alienating millions of Jews from Judaism.
Cursing spewing disgusting insults out at not only plain ordinary Jews but others who were greater & wiser than him.
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The death of a tzadik is viewed sometimes as a kapara. Could the death of Rav Ovadiah Yosef be a kapara for the Shas support of Oslo?
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Like I said Muman613 is the most respectful member on this forum. I'm sure the majority of you are not educated in Torah Judaism nor do you have any clue on who Rav Yosef was as a Chaham.
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Another thing Rav Shach ZTL is another saddik that ppl on this forum curse. Loshon hara is a terrible sin especially when spoken about the dead
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Another thing Rav Shach ZTL is another saddik that ppl on this forum curse. Loshon hara is a terrible sin especially when spoken about the dead
Tzadik :::D
Shach was a piece of crap who insulted the Lubavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L,ZY"A & HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik,ZT"L,ZY"A.
To add insult to injury he did the same to HaRav Adin Steinsaltz,Shlit"a who made gemora accessable to a whole new generation.
The Rav & The Rebbe were respopsible for saving American Jewry & American Orthodoxy in particular from disaapearing & left generations of students who spread Torah to & mikarev other Jews.
What did Shach do?
He created generations of welfare cases & draft dodgers.
By his wicked tongue & vitriol he drove away millions from Judaism.
Thousands were killed & maimed because of his supporting giving away land to hostile enemies.
The man was pure evil.
Nobody outside of Eretz Yisroel heard of this oisvorf until he started spewing verbal diarrhea against the Rebbe & HaRav Soloveitchik.
That was his claim to fame degrading those greater & far more accomplished than himself.
Why doesn't Shach's vile insults directed against the Rebbe,HaRav Soloveitchik & HaRav Steinsaltz bother you as much as things people here have said against this insignificant flea who so polarized klal Yisroel & degraded those far greater than him?
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Can we reduce the Lashon Hara please?
Yes, there were major machloket between many of the Jewish sects. The zionist/anti-zionist division is especially troubling. I believe that all Jews envision a time when we will live in peace in Israel, but the difference comes down to whether the modern state of Israel, with all it's secular and wicked leaders and people, is the vision which the prophets foretold.
Most of us here consider ourselves 'Kahanists' which means we support a very strong Israel, within the existing crooked system of government, which eventually will inculcate Jewish values into the next generation of Israelis. By creating a strong Israel we can thus bring more Jews to Eretz Yisrael who till then have been worried about attacks from our enemies, and the wicked government. The Kahanists have the best plan for bringing about the promised redemption.
But we should work within the parameters of Judaism as learned in the holy texts, TaNaK, the Talmud, the sages and commentators of the early years (rishonim) and the mystical works of Jewish faith. As much as I acknowledge disagreement with Rabbi Shach I will refrain from belittling his opinions. As Rabbi Kook, the great national religious figure of the pre-state years, would express that in order for our redemption to occur we must find unity among Jewish brothers and sisters.
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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ROY also state that Arabs are brothers of the Jews and that their lives should be spared if possible?
He also said yimach shmam on other occasions. He also said that the purpose of gentiles is to be servant of the Jews in the end of days.
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I have to do some research before i can judge this men.
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(http://www.israelimages.com/searchresult_watermark.php?image=Web-Regular/13270.jpg&watermark_text=2755&watermark_color=ffffff)
"In Yitzhak Rabin's 1979 book, he called Peres "an unrelenting conniver" and claimed that he had devoted his life to ruining him. In 1990, Rabin watched Peres corrupt the Knesset in what he called, "the stinking deal." After the tie in the 1984 elections, Peres understood that his Labor Party could not win a national election because the 600,000 strong Moroccan community would never support its policies. But Peres saw a way around the problem. A new party, Shas, which represented Moroccan interests, had won a few seats in the Knesset. If the party could be corrupted and then financed to become a serious electoral force, Labor could win the Morrocan vote through the back door. He keyed in on 23 year old Arieh Deri, the secretary of the party's spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef. Peres sent his cronies Haim Ramon, Yossi Beilin and Moshe Shahal to flatter Deri, draw him into illegal business deals and further his career. Within a year, Deri was appointed Director of the Interior Ministry Office and by the age of 25, Peres arranged that he become the Minister of The Interior. In 1990, Peres was the Minister Of Finance in a unity government headed by Yitzhak Shamir. As Finance Minister, Peres recorded every agora of thefts Deri was perpetrating in the Interior Ministry and in February 1990, he decided that the moment had arrived to blackmail Shas. Working with Secretary of State James Baker to bring down Shamir, he devised a plan to become Prime Minister. Baker presented a new peace plan, which included negotiations over Jerusalem. Peres and Baker both knew that Shamir would have to reject the plan. So Peres caused a government crisis by demanding that Israel, "Say yes to Baker." He ordered a non-confidence vote against his own government, knowing that he would win. He had sent his deputy Yossi Beilin to Deri with a full report of his thefts and gave him the choice of facing prison or felling Shamir. Deri chose the latter and led the once Rightist, Orthodox Shas Party to abstain from the vote. Shamir fell and Peres was appointed Prime Minister, though his term only lasted 88 days. The blackmail of Shas, however, never desisted and the current peace process was built on the back of Peres's corruption of this hapless party. "
(http://blog.danco.org/Imag/sionistes.jpg)
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2324/2486165423_1fc5f9183d.jpg)
The Convoluted Legacy of Ovadiya Yosef
by Steven Plaut
All of Israel is in convulsion this week over the death of Rabbi Ovadia Yossef. His funeral was the largest in the history of the country. Yossef was indeed a distinguished Torah authority and "Posek." Unfortunately he was also a politician. Many of the gushing praises being tossed out about him and his career are ignoring the many negative sides of that career. Yossef was not only a Rabbinic giant, he was also a vulgar and foolish dabbler in politics who turned "Lashon Hara" or "the evil tongue" into something of his calling card.
An example of the imbalanced praise being heaped upon Yossef is the column by my friend Seth Frantzman in Jerusalem Post, http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Terra-incognita-The-Rav-and-his-detractors-328184 . By and large I agree with Seth's thesis, which is that much of the hostility towards Rabbi Ovadia and his SHAS party always came from bigoted Ashkenazi secularist leftists. Seth documents many such cases of bigotry in a convincing manner and his article is worth reading. But he too chooses to overlook the negative sides of Ovadia's behavior and personality. For full disclosure, I should point out that there is even an indirect connection between Ovadia's career and my own family. My wife's grandfather was a leading Rabbi in Egypt. When he made aliyah in 1947 (by train!!) to Haifa he was replaced by the young Ovadia Yossef, whose rabbinic career developed for a while in Egypt. (Many web sites are attributing the Ovadia the rabbinic ruling that a Jew may marry a Karaite without the Karaite converting, but in fact this was a ruling by my wife's grandfather, Rabbi Nissim Ohana.)
On halakhic questions, most of Ovadia's rulings were intelligent and sensitive. He was the authority who ruled that Ethiopian Jews are bona fide Jews. He issued rulings making it easier for wives of MIA soldiers to remarry. He issued rulings that allowed farm owners to evade the economic damages of "Shmita" years. He ruled that brain death is death and so it was not necessary to keep a brain dead body alive. He opposed wearing of wigs and hair shaving by religious women. A Palestinian terrorist group attempted to assassinate the Rabbi in 2005.
Ovadia was born in Iraq and his family moved to Israel when he was quite young. He was ordained a rabbi at age of 20. He was obviously extremely bright and possessed enormous analytic power. He served as Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel beginning in 1973. On matters of rabbinic discourse or halakha, his rulings tended in most cases to be tolerant and moderate. In general, Sephardic religious tradition has long been calmer, gentler, less extreme, and more moderate than that of Orthodox Ashkenazim, and Sephardim are renowned for their sensibility. Traditionally it would be rare to find Sephardic Jews who eat pork or openly violate Yom Kippur restrictions, and at the same time it would be unusual for Sephardim to choose to spend their entire lives as yeshiva students living off the dole paid by others who work, or to behave rudely towards people who attend soccer matches on the Sabbath.
Much of the traditional sensibility of Sephardim came under attack by the politicized religious institutions erected by Rabbi Ovadia, and in particular by the SHAS party. Originally set up by Yossef and others as a "revolt" against the Chareidi Ultra-Orthodox parties and their attitudes towards Sephardim, SHAS itself developed into its own manifestation of politicized religion, in many ways as bad as the Ashkenazi Chareidi parties. SHAS was first and foremost a party for extortion of funding and favors from the secularist-dominated governments of Israel. While parasitic non-working yeshiva study had always been absent from the Sephardic religious world, SHAS embraced the idea and expanded it with a vengeance. Like the Ashkenazi chareidim, the "flour" from the famous religious mantra of "flour with Torah" was ejected, replaced by welfare distributions at taxpayer expense, enraging and alienating the secular Israeli. SHAS yeshiva students adopted the black chareidi clothing of the Ashkenazim, a manner of dress with no basis in Sephardic tradition. As the party morphed into a mechanism for extraction of "rents" from the taxpayer, its involvement in dubious financial affairs increased. The SHAS underboss Aryeh Deri may have been unfairly targeted for prosecution by an Attorney General with an axe to pick against SHAS, but Deri was hardly an epitome of purity, hardly a Tallis that is entirely azure (tachelet). Deri and Yossef collaborated with Shimon Peres in the now infamous 1991 "stinky trick" attempt to topple the national unity government in which Peres sat (for details, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dirty_trick_(Israel) ).
Even worse was the cynicism with which SHAS dealt with the national challenges and political issues Israel faces. SHAS was willing to oppose Oslo appeasement or to endorse it, depending on whether doing so would serve its transient appetite for public funding. An old joke held it that SHAS would vote for turning the Golan Heights over to Syria if it earned SHAS some funding, just as long as the withdrawal would not take place on the Sabbath. While Rabbi Ovadia's own brothers served in the Irgun or Etsel before Israel's independence, he and SHAS joined the chareidi campaign to grant wholesale exemption from the military service of all yeshiva students. Yossef attacked vulgarly any politician, even religious ones, who supported recruiting yeshiva students into military service. In his last weeks of life, Yossef's vulgar and ad hominem defamations of Naftali Bennett because of the latter's proposals to draft yeshiva students will haunt Yossef into his grave. While shifting its position back and forth, SHAS by and large aligned itself with the Left and endorsed Oslo appeasements. To its credit, it opposed the Gaza "disengagement." The ugly squabbling of the SHAS party hacks and their positioning for power even as the Rabbi's body was being borne to the grave illustrates SHAS values wonderfully (see http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/yishais-men-accuse-deri-of-overtaking-shas-with-force-and-cynicism/2013/10/09/ ).
Yossef had a foul tongue and thoughtlessly defamed anyone whose opinions were not to his liking in often-obscene and disgusting rhetoric. He would dismiss those he disliked as "men who have sex with menstruating women." As such, he was a disgrace and was committing sacrilege. He played into the hands of the anti-religious secularists who could paint him as a foul-mouthed buffoon sitting at the pinnacle of Rabbinic authority. He also tossed out silly comments, such as his claim that Hurricane Katrina was a Divine retribution for insufficient study of Torah. He was misogynist as the day is long. At times, his acid tongue was at least focused in the correct direction, such as some comments he made about MERETZ or the "Reform" synagogue movement.
The SHAS party is his legacy of demagoguery and cynicism.
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Btw the greatest Ashkenazi American Rav was rabbi Moshe Feinstein ZTL
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Judaism is so complex for me and full of words I dont understand...but Chaim used word Kapara-in Serbian language it means Down Payment...person would say "Dao sam Kaparu"......also English word sin is written and pronaunced the same but means SON in Serbian 8)
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We also must not forget that that Rav Ovadia Yosef was a puppet of the evil R'Elazar Shach who maligned both the Luavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L,ZY"A,HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik,ZT"L,ZYA & HaRav Adin Steinsaltz,Shilt"a.
What were some of Shach's accomplishments?
Here are some:
Creating a generation of welfare cases & draft dodgers.
Alienating millions of Jews from Judaism.
Cursing spewing disgusting insults out at not only plain ordinary Jews but others who were greater & wiser than him.
Calling Rav Shach "evil" is insane, no matter how many things he said that you didn't like. (And I also did not like many things he said). Don't dishonor the Torah.
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Do I still have to serve him?
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Calling Rav Shach "evil" is insane, no matter how many things he said that you didn't like. (And I also did not like many things he said). Don't dishonor the Torah.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
How dare he say the terrible vile things he said about The Lubavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L,Rav Soloveitchik ZT"L& Rav Steinsaltz?
It was clearly hateful & jealousy on his part.
Nothing I said wasn't true.
I would never talk bad on a true gadol,but he was no gadol in my eyes & in the eyes of many chasidim (not only Chabad but other chasidim as well) & as well as many talmidim of Rav Soloveitchik.
Surely he was not on the magnitude of the Rebbe or Rav Soloveitchik.
The man was pure evil & because of him many Jews were turned off to Judaism & Jews were killed because of his support of sacrificing land.
At least Rav Ovadia,ZTL wsa mensch enough to admit when he was wrong & reached out to other Jews & brought many Jews back to the derech unlike that other person.
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CK just drop it, I dont know what he said exactly (except the Chabad part) but at least many today agree with his statements of such things and see the messichist madness going on. Anyway I spoke too much just dropp it all together, lets not talk about Rav Schach, Habad, the Modern-Orthodox or R' Steinzaltz (Although I dont know what he said nor do you need to repeat it, but I know generally people like him were/are against things like Artsccroll because they believed and believe that it dumbs people down by making it too easy- I heard this before, I personally have a Steinzaltz Gemorrah though and I need it).
Whatever he said you know you do and will have a natural bias against him because he attacked your leader, soo drop it and leave it to someone who wouldn't be biased at all and have nothing to gain or loose, (basically drop it).
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1 thing I dont get, are some people here getting to the point where they are and will refer to basically everyone as "evil"? I mean seriously who is left to support and be part of? Isn't the whole point to help Am Yisrael instead of just fight against EVERYONE? I don't see 1 group of public figure that wasn't attacked, I can't think of 1, not even Kahanists (of course they aren't "Kahanists" then). Soo who is even left to either support or looked positively on? Hatred is directed against Shas (Sefardi Haredi) against the Askenasi Haredi, against the Dati-Leumi (such as the National-Religious/ Settlers) against the Hiloni vaadi. Who is even left who'm you wouldn't call "evil" ?
Why is everyone being insulted and branded as "evil"? Perhaps I don't have a correct translation of what this word entails.
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CB just drop it, I dont know what he said exactly (except the Chabad part) but at least many today agree with his statements of such things and see the messichist madness going on. Anyway I spoke too much just dropp it all together, lets not talk about Rav Schach, Habad, the Modern-Orthodox or R' Steinzaltz (Although I dont know what he said nor do you need to repeat it, but I know generally people like him were/are against things like Artsccroll because they believed and believe that it dumbs people down by making it too easy- I heard this before, I personally have a Steinzaltz Gemorrah though and I need it).
Whatever he said you know you do and will have a natural bias against him because he attacked your leader, soo drop it and leave it to someone who wouldn't be biased at all and have nothing to gain or loose, (basically drop it).
I agree best to drop it as it is now water under the bridge as both have passed on .& I say that the Mishichistim are looney toons who belong in the funny farm I am totally against them & their nonsense.
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Actually I like the Dati Leumi particularly the ones from Bat Ayin.
Bat Ayin is one of the few yishuvim that does not hire any Arab workers & depends only on Jewish labor.
Also you can't own German cars there.
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Do I still have to serve him?
Oh no, I want you to serve me.
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http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104249/randy-gets-served
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Chaim is correct. Shas is an evil party and ROY is responsible for the evil decisions he made of it, since he was the true leader and driving force of it. HaRav Meir Kahane (ztl) should have been the most influential political rabbi in Israel, not Ovadia Yosef.
Can you guys tell me who Rabbi Shach is please?
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Chaim is correct. Shas is an evil party and ROY is responsible for the evil decisions he made of it, since he was the true leader and driving force of it. HaRav Meir Kahane (ztl) should have been the most influential political rabbi in Israel, not Ovadia Yosef.
Can you guys tell me who Rabbi Shach is please?
Google his name Elazar Shach & look on wikapedia that will give you a fair idea.
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Judaism is so complex for me and full of words I dont understand...but Chaim used word Kapara-in Serbian language it means Down Payment...person would say "Dao sam Kaparu"......also English word sin is written and pronaunced the same but means SON in Serbian 8)
I think it means torture in hell.
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Oh no, I want you to serve me.
Yes master. I will serve you.
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(http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/21802/obey-poster-cartoon-cruel.jpg)
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I think it means torture in hell.
Kapara? No, it means atonement.
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I think it means torture in hell.
Maybe you didn't realize it but the word Kapparah is related to the word Kippur... We recently celebrated Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement) last month...
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Maybe you didn't realize it but the word Kapparah is related to the word Kippur... We recently celebrated Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement) last month...
Oh. Well how do you say it in relation to something that you can't atone for on this world?
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I agree best to drop it as it is now water under the bridge as both have passed on .& I say that the Mishichistim are looney toons who belong in the funny farm I am totally against them & their nonsense.
The Meshichistim are actually the ones that are the most Pro-Land of Israel. They are the Chabad version of the Hilltop Youth type people. They can be seen waving their Mashiach flag at nationalist events. The ones that don't say the Rebbe is Mashiach are more like an Establishment group and stay out of politics. They care like the Chabad version of Mafdal and/or the Yesha Council.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npA5zeJfVjs
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yerusha knock it off, no one is messichist here and no one besides a few even understand what he said because its in Hebrew. You always know the perfect time to jump in and stirr the pot, what's your point in the video. Their is nothing for anyone here except you trying to piss CK off.
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The Chabad I attend is pro-Israel and my Rabbi knows I have Kahanist leanings. I have explained that I know at least four Chabad rabbis personally (have their phone numbers and call them when I have questions) and none of them are messichist..
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Oh. Well how do you say it in relation to something that you can't atone for on this world?
I think you are thinking of Karet, being 'cut off'...
http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/10949/jewish/Karet.htm
Karet: (lit. “excision”); the cutting of the soul, causing premature death on the earthly plane and a severing of the soul’s connection with G-d on the spiritual plane
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I think you are thinking of Karet, being 'cut off'...
http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/10949/jewish/Karet.htm
Karet: (lit. “excision”); the cutting of the soul, causing premature death on the earthly plane and a severing of the soul’s connection with G-d on the spiritual plane
No, actually I think he meant something else, as one can correct sins of karet. By the way as long as one is alive they can correct anything even if a heavenly voice says that one cannot do Teshuva (like for Acher) we dont listen to it and one can still make Teshuva.
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No, actually I think he meant something else, as one can correct sins of karet. By the way as long as one is alive they can correct anything even if a heavenly voice says that one cannot do Teshuva (like for Acher) we dont listen to it and one can still make Teshuva.
I have brought the story of Acher many times in the forum...
See this:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,45924.msg439269.html#msg439269
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"During the days of the First Holy Temple, as King Hezekiah reigned in Judea, the mighty Assyrian empire ruled the Middle East. Its armies poured over the area, conquering nations and states, never defeated. The northern Jewish kingdom of Israel fell to the mighty Assyrians, and they ravaged the southern kingdom of Judea, conquering every city and town except the capital, Jerusalem. The powerful army, led by Sanacherib, laid siege to the city and delivered an ultimatum to the Jews standing behind the city's walls: Surrender and live, be taken to another land where you will live lives of quiet comfort, or fight—and be exterminated.
Within the city a bitter debate broke out, with King Hezekiah placing his faith in the Almighty, calling for resistance and refusal to surrender. A second camp, however, led by the scholar and scribe Shevna, called for surrender and peace. And thus, says the Talmud (Sanhedrin 26a):
"Shevna spoke before 130,000 people and Hezekiah before 110,000. Hezekiah (seeing that the majority was with Shevna) was fearful and said: Can it be, G-d forbid, that the Almighty wishes to go after the majority and since the majority wishes to surrender, we, too, should agree to surrender? The prophet [Isaiah] then came and said: 'Say you not a confederation to all that the people shall call a confederation' (Isaiah 8 ). It is a confederation of the wicked and a confederacy of the wicked is not counted."
The votes and the majority of those who do not follow G-d's law and will are not "counted," are not considered in making a national Jewish decision. Of course, there is a concept of democracy within Judaism. But that is within a context of Jewish law, when the majority does not go against Judaism. Certainly the Sanhedrin ruled on the basis of the majority decision of its members and certainly the vote for people who are committed to Judaism and Jewish policies is based on the principle of democracy. But democracy can never be used to vote against Torah and Jewish concepts and values and laws. Democracy must bow before the truth of Judaism." (p.264 "Uncomfortable Questions for Comfortable Jews", R.Meir Kahane 1987)
The High Priest Shevna and his 130,000 disciples knew Torah and Halacha x1000 times better than Ovadiya Yosef & Shas, and were otherwise probably complete tzaddikim on a level that we cannot comprehend, yet they are still called a kesher reshoyim - "a confederacy of the wicked" by Hashem, for erring in wanting to surrender Eretz Yisrael for pikuach nefesh - "to save lives", showing how vast is His Land's honour is in His eyes, and how vast is the judgment against most Haredi leaders and their followers is in this generation for supporting Oslo, and who despite all the terrible events of the last 20 years, still in principle to this day are prepared to give up parts of Israel to the Ishmaelites!
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Imagine that one's donkey would die. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/Donkey_from_Shrek.jpg)
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No, actually I think he meant something else, as one can correct sins of karet. By the way as long as one is alive they can correct anything even if a heavenly voice says that one cannot do Teshuva (like for Acher) we dont listen to it and one can still make Teshuva.
בס''ד
Not true that you can correct anything no matter how bad.
You mean after murdering over 6 million Jews, Hitler could have corrected his past by doing tshuva? The claim is simply absurd. Certain actions are unforgivable.
I know you heard this from rabbis who preach this message nowadays but it is a complete distortion of Torah. Even if a murderer does tshuva, they cannot do kapara for their crime because they cannot bring back the person they murdered.
Or if someone encourages another person to sin, how can they do tshuva for the sin which another person does? So if you have leaders or actors or singers or clergy or journalists who cause millions to sin, how can the person responsible for this mass sinning do tshuva for all of the evil that they have caused?
In other words, tshuva (return) is not the same as kapara (atonement). Kapara is eliminating the negative consequences of sinful behavior in this world. There are many sins for which kapara is possible. But there are also grave sins for which it is impossible - in these severe cases like murder, even if the murderer does tshuva, he cannot do kapara by merely repenting. His soul will be held accountable in the next world.
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בס''ד
Not true that you can correct anything no matter how bad.
You mean after murdering over 6 million Jews, Hitler could have corrected his past by doing tshuva? The claim is simply absurd. Certain actions are unforgivable.
I know you heard this from rabbis who preach this message nowadays but it is a complete distortion of Torah. Even if a murderer does tshuva, they cannot do kapara for their crime because they cannot bring back the person they murdered.
Or if someone encourages another person to sin, how can they do tshuva for the sin which another person does? So if you have leaders or actors or singers or clergy or journalists who cause millions to sin, how can the person responsible for this mass sinning do tshuva for all of the evil that they have caused?
In other words, tshuva (return) is not the same as kapara (atonement). Kapara is eliminating the negative consequences of sinful behavior in this world. There are many sins for which kapara is possible. But there are also grave sins for which it is impossible - in these severe cases like murder, even if the murderer does tshuva, he cannot do kapara by merely repenting. His soul will be held accountable in the next world.
What if the murder is out of self defense, or revenge for the murder of innocent people?
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בס''ד
Not true that you can correct anything no matter how bad.
You mean after murdering over 6 million Jews, Hitler could have corrected his past by doing tshuva? The claim is simply absurd. Certain actions are unforgivable.
I know you heard this from rabbis who preach this message nowadays but it is a complete distortion of Torah. Even if a murderer does tshuva, they cannot do kapara for their crime because they cannot bring back the person they murdered.
Or if someone encourages another person to sin, how can they do tshuva for the sin which another person does? So if you have leaders or actors or singers or clergy or journalists who cause millions to sin, how can the person responsible for this mass sinning do tshuva for all of the evil that they have caused?
In other words, tshuva (return) is not the same as kapara (atonement). Kapara is eliminating the negative consequences of sinful behavior in this world. There are many sins for which kapara is possible. But there are also grave sins for which it is impossible - in these severe cases like murder, even if the murderer does tshuva, he cannot do kapara by merely repenting. His soul will be held accountable in the next world.
Can you explain the meaning of the story of Acher from the Talmud. This is what Tag is referring to, and according to this story Acher was a very bad sinner. He was a Rabbi who was admitted to Gan Eden, but after he returned he 'went off the derek' so bad he publicly violated Shabbat, even engaging in murder.... He told his Rabbi that he heard a Bat Kol (Heavenly voice) saying that his Teshuva would not be accepted.
In the end he was able to do teshuva... Acher did receive gehinnom but he eventually was rewarded with the World to Come...
See Gemara Chagiga 15a @ http://halakhah.com/rst/moed/23%20-%20Chagigah%20-%202a-27a.pdf
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A short summary of the story of Acher....
http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-shabbos/5760/bo.html
The Gemara (Chagiga 15a) tells the tragic story of Elisha ben Avuya - also known as "Acher" - who after many years as a renowned Torah scholar, lost his faith, and began to sin. One of Acher's greatest disciples had been the great Talmudic sage Rabbi Meir. The Talmud relates that even after his rebbe, Acher, had abandoned his Judaism, Rabbi Meir continued to visit him, partly in order to try to bring him back.
Once, Rabbi Meir said to his rebbe: "What is the meaning of that which is written (Iyov/Job 28:17), 'Gold and crystal cannot equal it, nor can it be exchanged with golden vessels?'"
"This refers," said Acher, "to the words of Torah, which are as difficult to acquire as gold, and as easy to lose as crystal is to break!"
"No!" said Rabbi Meir, "your rebbe, Rabbi Akiva, did not explain it like that. Rather, he said, 'Just like vessels of gold and crystal, even if they broke, can always be fixed (even crystal can be reheated and re-formed) - so too, even the greatest Torah scholar, if he has done wrong, can still repent!' Rebbe," pleaded Rabbi Meir, "relent from your ways!"
"Impossible!" said Acher, "I can not return. For from behind the [heavenly] partition I have heard [the voice of G-d] proclaiming (Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah 3:14), 'Return, O wayward sons - except for Acher!' [Evidently, I am beyond repentance.]"
Even so, the Gemara relates, Rabbi Meir continued [unsuccessfully] to hound his rebbe, pleading with him to repent. Did Rabbi Meir not believe in Acher's heavenly voice? Can one indeed sin to the point where he is "beyond teshuva?"
The short answer is: Yes, one can pervert his life so badly that the Gates of Teshuva are closed in his face. One can, so to speak, sin to the point of "no return." Indeed, this is precisely what occurred with Acher. The heavenly voice was proof that his teshuva was no longer acceptable.
Yet, asks Agra de-Pirka, what would have been if, after the initial shock of hearing the heavenly proclamation "Return, O wayward sons - except for Acher," Elisha would have said to himself: "So what! Perhaps they can prevent me from entering the Garden of Eden, but they can't stop me from trying to salvage my wretched life! I will do my best to repent. If my teshuva will not be accepted - so be it. At least I will know that I have not lived out my last days wallowing in the disgust of my own sin!" Would his teshuva indeed have been thrown in his face?
A rebbe has a very difficult student. Continued threats seem to be falling on deaf ears. He has already been suspended for a period, for a day, and for a week. Finally, in desperation, the rebbe gives him an ultimatum: "That's it," he says earnestly, "no more chances! Mark my words: The next time will be your last! If you misbehave one more time, we're through. I will never again let you back into my class." Soon afterward, the student pulls a prank. "Out!" hollers the rebbe, "and never come back again!"
What, I once asked my students, should the "wayward student" do? Should he 1) Plead with his rebbe for "one more chance"? 2) Leave the class and - obeying his rebbe's words - never come back. 3) Come back tomorrow (or next week) and plead for his rebbe's forgiveness?
It's hard to know for sure, but my students felt that to some extent the rebbe was really testing his student. Did he really care about remaining in yeshiva? Would he come back, or would he use his rebbe's harsh punishment as an excuse to leave the yeshiva forever - "After all, my rebbe told me never to come back!" At any rate, they decided, to make no attempt to placate his rebbe would be a major mistake.
This, explain sefarim, was Hashem's test of Acher. The voice he heard was very real. Indeed, having heard that fatal voice itself made repentance almost impossible. Yet the potential was still there. Elisha could have ignored the voice, and done what's right.
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I also don't think Tag was trying to say that punishment was not going to be dealt to the sinner. I know he has said that everything, good and evil, is met with reward and punishment. Even the most righteous person will have to do some suffering (in this world) for the sins he has done. The most wicked person will be rewarded for the good he has done (in this world, most probably).
This is not what 'progressive' or 'reform' Rabbis say. This is what the Talmud and the Orthodox Rabbis say...
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What if the murder is out of self defense, or revenge for the murder of innocent people?
בס''ד
Self-defense or justifiable revenge are not sins. If there is no sin, there is no punishment.
When we speak of heavenly punishment, we are referring to the unjustified murder of an innocent person.
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Can you explain the meaning of the story of Acher from the Talmud. This is what Tag is referring to, and according to this story Acher was a very bad sinner. He was a Rabbi who was admitted to Gan Eden, but after he returned he 'went off the derek' so bad he publicly violated Shabbat, even engaging in murder.... He told his Rabbi that he heard a Bat Kol (Heavenly voice) saying that his Teshuva would not be accepted.
In the end he was able to do teshuva... Acher did receive gehinnom but he eventually was rewarded with the World to Come...
See Gemara Chagiga 15a @ http://halakhah.com/rst/moed/23%20-%20Chagigah%20-%202a-27a.pdf
בס''ד
Like many stories in the Gemara, this story is filled with symbolism. We do not know the exact nature of the sins involved.
However, it is halacha that you cannot be forgiven by simply repenting before G-d even on Yom Kippur if you have done something wrong to another person unless you get that person's forgiveness, and if necessary, by compensating that person for the wrong that you have done.
If your sin is against G-d, you can be forgiven by doing three things on Yom Kippur: admitting your sin, expressing sincere regret and promising not to repeat that sin in the future. But if your sin is against another person, then this three step process is not enough. You must ask the person you have wronged for forgiveness and the person must agree to forgive you.
If this is true when you commit sins like gossiping about someone else or hurting someone else's feelings, then how much more so is it true if you murder an innocent person, G-d forbid. Yom Kippur cannot atone for such a crime. There is no atonement in this world because you cannot bring that person back to life.
Also in cases of great evil, Hashem sometimes takes free will away as part of the punishment. Hashem hardened Pharoah's heart - He took Pharoah's free will away because He wanted to give Egypt the full punishment of all ten plagues after the Egyptians murdered the Hebrew first born baby boys. HaRambam teaches us that this can be part of the punishment - the wicked are unable to repent because G-d wants to give them the maximum punishment.
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Shalom Chaim,
Thank you for your response. I fully agree with you concerning the topic of whether some sins are forgivable. Obviously sins between man and his fellow are not forgivable except between men. Yom Kippur atones for sins between man and his maker. Sin like Lashon Hara and murder cannot be undone, and thus there will be punishment to pay.
I have read through the story of Acher again tonight and what I believe it says is that it is in the power of anyone to repent and to cease their wrong-doing. This story appears in both the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds and with slightly different discussions. This Acher fellow was a Gadol, taught by Rabbi Akiva himself and the teacher of Torah sages. He fell to the lowest lows in desecrating Shabbat, being an informant for the Romans, even going to the extent of possibly murdering a child. And a heavenly voice came from the ruins of the Holy Temple saying that everyone but Acher could do Teshuva (repent).
Obviously Acher's soul was punished for the wrongdoing that it did. But in the end it comes out that his Teshuva was accepted.
I believe it is taught that our sins will be cleansed through the process of Gehinnom (setting aside the calculation of Gilgulim)... It is my belief that Acher did his punishment in Gehinnom, and in the end was granted his Olam Haba.
Once again I appreciate your answers to these questions. And I do not argue with what you wrote in your reply as it is the truth.
Thank you,
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Also in cases of great evil, Hashem sometimes takes free will away as part of the punishment. Hashem hardened Pharoah's heart - He took Pharoah's free will away because He wanted to give Egypt the full punishment of all ten plagues after the Egyptians murdered the Hebrew first born baby boys. HaRambam teaches us that this can be part of the punishment - the wicked are unable to repent because G-d wants to give them the maximum punishment.
Let me reveal that I understand two teachings concerning what you mention here...
Indeed Rambam and others believe that Hashem will harden the heart of the wicked and provide all the reward for any good deeds in this world, so that they will have no reward in the next world... This is basic understanding...
But there is also a teaching which I sought an answer from my Rabbi about after Yom Kippur concerning the story of Yonah. I have seen it written that Pharoah was indeed able to do Teshuva. He was not destroyed in the Yam Suf as some sages suggest. Based on the way the pasuk which describes the destruction of the Egyptians when Hashem turned back the sea on them, some believe that Pharoah actually survived.
According to this midrash, Pharoah eventually became the King of Ninevah, the city to which Hashem sent Yonah to bring them to repentance... In this story the King of Ninevah does heed Yonahs warning, donning sackcloth and ashes and establishing a fast.
My Rabbi did not provide me with a very good answer. I have people who I will never forgive, especially those who are involved with the death of my brother. Sometimes when I hear Teshuva shuirs it bothers me because I do not believe that those wicked people involved in 9/11 can ever be forgiven, even by Hashem. But this midrash is truth, the question is how to understand it.
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Here is the concept which I brought in the post above, concerning reward...
http://ohr.edu/5522
Dear Mordechai,
This is a very good question, and one which the Torah commentators raise in several places.
It is true that regarding observing the Torah in general, and throughout this period of judgment of the High Holidays in particular, we are promised that the righteous will be rewarded. And as you point out, this reward is described in this-worldly terms.
Yet, we are taught by the Sages that "the reward for mitzvot is not in this world". Rather, it will be in the World-to-Come. This is one of the reasons behind the idea you mention that the righteous will be rewarded for their good deeds in the World-to-Come, whereas their few misdeeds will be "rewarded" in this world in the form of suffering, in order that they reap the full benefit of their righteousness in the next world.
However, if this is true, although we can understand why the wicked will be punished in the next world for their misdeeds, why are they rewarded for their few good deeds in this world? According to the teaching of the Sages quoted above, there's no reward for mitzvot in this world!
The answer to this question also answers yours.
In addition to teaching us that the reward for mitzvot is not in this world, the Sages also teach us that while the "principal" accrued by the mitzvot is rewarded in the next world, the "interest" on that principal is paid out in this world.
Therefore, the fact that the principal will be retained for the righteous in the next world doesn't mean they'll necessarily suffer in this world. It’s the "interest" on their investment that the Torah promises as blessing for doing G-d's Will, or as life and its bounties conferred upon the righteous during the period of judgment of the High Holidays.
On the other hand, the reward given to the wicked in this world for their few good deeds is actually the principal itself. Even though the reward for mitzvot is not in this world, that's specifically in the normal state of affairs. However, the wicked, by investing their efforts in the physical world, make it the place where their principal is paid. This results in their reaping the full "reward" for their misdeeds in the World-to-Come.
So to summarize, the "this-worldy" blessing promised to the righteous is paid from the interest on their holdings in the World-to-Come. And even though their few misdeeds are simultaneously reckoned here as suffering, that's only to preserve the integrity of their investments there. Whereas the wicked receive the full reward for their good deeds here, and suffer the full repercussions of their wickedness in the World-to-Come.
In what way, then, is the Torah's "this-worldly curse" against wicked realized?
For one, even though they may have bounty, they don't have blessing in that bounty. They are never satisfied with what they have, they're constantly driven by jealousy and competition to have more, and therefore don't really enjoy what they have. The righteous, however, in spirit with the teaching of our Sages, "Who is wealthy? He who is content with his portion", are grateful for and happy with G-d's gift - which is blessing. And this is a further curse for the wicked, who — seeing the righteous content with less — seethe with dissatisfaction and dismay.
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What about the non-Jew who even killed many many people during the first destruction of the first Temple , but then converted and became a full Jew and was forgiven. (The name slipped me).
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It is my belief that Acher did his punishment in Gehinnom, and in the end was granted his Olam Haba.
Even though I skimmed everything and didn't see all the responses here today, about this- I w as under the impression that he didn't go to Gehinnom because it wouldn't affect him. He was in some sort of neither here nor their place because someone who has a lot of Torah (since Torah is like fire) isn't affected by Gehinnom, but he wasn't sent to Olam Haba as well, soo he was stuck in between until some years later.
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We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
How dare he say the terrible vile things he said about The Lubavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L,Rav Soloveitchik ZT"L& Rav Steinsaltz?
It was clearly hateful & jealousy on his part.
Nothing I said wasn't true.
I would never talk bad on a true gadol,but he was no gadol in my eyes & in the eyes of many chasidim (not only Chabad but other chasidim as well) & as well as many talmidim of Rav Soloveitchik.
Surely he was not on the magnitude of the Rebbe or Rav Soloveitchik.
The man was pure evil & because of him many Jews were turned off to Judaism & Jews were killed because of his support of sacrificing land.
At least Rav Ovadia,ZTL wsa mensch enough to admit when he was wrong & reached out to other Jews & brought many Jews back to the derech unlike that other person.
You are talking nonsense.
A man is "pure evil" because he said something negative about your rebbe? Wow bro, lay off the personality cult kool aid.
I agree with your sentiment "how dare he say those things" because I do feel he said some ridiculous and terrible things about good Jews. On the other hand, so what? Go to YU and you will not find one rav there or actual talmid of Rabbi JB Soloveitchik who will call Rav Shach "evil" as you do. None of them will agree with you despite the fact that they don't accept what he said about them or YU. Rav Shach's outlandish comments were only part and parcel of the haredi political approach in modern times. The agudists do the same exact thing to this day. And news for you is that almost the entire "yeshivish" world have disdain for YU and for Rav Soloveitchik unfortunately. That does not make them evil even if I think they are really misguided . Do you consider hundreds of thousands of frum Jews to be "pure evil" because they do not accept anything from Steinsaltz and they look down on Rav S and YU?
Lastly, from what I understand, Rav Shach fought against Chabad because of the messichistim and just as you called them loonie tunes and I agree with you, that's exactly what he was fighting against, the loony tunes. But you also need to accept the fact that when his chassidim publicly declared him moshiach at farbrengens, the rebbe said nothing. He did nothing to stop them or contradict them. So it is understandable why some people would have had sharp criticisms for the Rebbe at that time.
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You are talking nonsense.
A man is "pure evil" because he said something negative about your rebbe? Wow bro, lay off the personality cult kool aid.
I agree with your sentiment "how dare he say those things" because I do feel he said some ridiculous and terrible things about good Jews. On the other hand, so what? Go to YU and you will not find one rav there or actual talmid of Rabbi JB Soloveitchik who will call Rav Shach "evil" as you do. None of them will agree with you despite the fact that they don't accept what he said about them or YU. Rav Shach's outlandish comments were only part and parcel of the haredi political approach in modern times. The agudists do the same exact thing to this day. And news for you is that almost the entire "yeshivish" world have disdain for YU and for Rav Soloveitchik unfortunately. That does not make them evil even if I think they are really misguided . Do you consider hundreds of thousands of frum Jews to be "pure evil" because they do not accept anything from Steinsaltz and they look down on Rav S and YU?
Lastly, from what I understand, Rav Shach fought against Chabad because of the messichistim and just as you called them loonie tunes and I agree with you, that's exactly what he was fighting against, the loony tunes. But you also need to accept the fact that when his chassidim publicly declared him moshiach at farbrengens, the rebbe said nothing. He did nothing to stop them or contradict them. So it is understandable why some people would have had sharp criticisms for the Rebbe at that time.
Actually before he had the stroke he vehently objected to be called Moshiach I heard it myself,so Shach's insults were unwarranted.
Also Shach insulted the Gerrer Rebbe as well is that a gadol I don't think so but an egomaniac who has no respect for others more successful than him.
The man was pure evil & I believe that fully.
What did he contribute to Klal Yisroel?
Nothing other than putting down other Jews & turning off thousands.
A true gadol does not spew forth the verbal diarreha that Shach spouted but has Ahavas Yisroel. for all Jews.
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Actually before he had the stroke he vehently objected to be called Moshiach I heard it myself,so Shach's insults were unwarranted.
Also Shach insulted the Gerrer Rebbe as well is that a gadol I don't think so but an egomaniac who has no respect for others more successful than him.
The man was pure evil & I believe that fully.
What did he contribute to Klal Yisroel?
Nothing other than putting down other Jews & turning off thousands.
A true gadol does not spew forth the verbal diarreha that Shach spouted but has Ahavas Yisroel. for all Jews.
YU Talmidim don't call him evil, gerer chassidim don't call him evil,only you do.
You ask what he accomplished, I honestly don't know much about him but I know tons of Jews consider him a great scholar , including Rav Yakov Weinberg zt"l of ner yisrael, whose talmidim say he considered rav shach the leading halachic authority of eretz yisrael. Anyway why don't you learn about what he accomplished instead of judging based on some meaningless bombastic comments he made.
Did the L Rebbe give farbrengen after the stroke? I know an elderly Jew personally who used to go to the farbrengens of the rebbe and when at one of them they declared him moshiach and he said nothing, this Jew stopped going to any farbrengens and disconnected from chabad entirely.
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At least Rav Ovadia,ZTL wsa mensch enough to admit when he was wrong & reached out to other Jews & brought many Jews back to the derech unlike that other person.
Excuse me? I understand that he was a wise sage, but worthy of the highest honor in Judaism after his death? ROY supported every single suicide initiative and surrender to the Arabs/international Nazis, in exchange for government funding of his institutions and welfare for his followers. That is not righteous and like Chaim said, some sins are not forgivable or overlookable.
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Excuse me? I understand that he was a wise sage, but worthy of the highest honor in Judaism after his death? ROY supported every single suicide initiative and surrender to the Arabs/international Nazis, in exchange for government funding of his institutions and welfare for his followers. That is not righteous and like Chaim said, some sins are not forgivable or overlookable.
Not true, just forget about it.
And perhaps leftists will try to claim as such (within and without the party), but the record shows differently.
Also before people continue using the "evil" card on others, remember that Rav Kahane ZTL HYD said that because of the galut even great Scholars of today have imbued into them the culture of the galut and the FEAR of the goyim. That is what is causing a lot of the problems of today. Irrational fear of" what will they say" or what if America cuts off the aid and other such things.
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I think he will have to answer to God for why he wanted to consider most of humanity as slaves. On top of that he betrayed his own people by supporting concessions to the Fakestinians. I just don't understand why anybody would mourn this guy. He seemed to hate humanity in general.
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I think he will have to answer to God for why he wanted to consider most of humanity as slaves. On top of that he betrayed his own people by supporting concessions to the Fakestinians. I just don't understand why anybody would mourn this guy. He seemed to hate humanity in general.
Naa, I read recently by the Rambam as well saying similar thing although he doesn't say "goyim" he says that the unlearned are here to serve the perfect man. These people could be few in a generation or could be sometimes 1ce in a couple of generations (looong explanation) but this idea isn't new and misunderstanding of what "serve" means. At least by the Rambam he says the purpose of a human being is to Know G-D as much as possible, anyone (Jew or non-Jew) not reaching that level isn't a complete human being. Then explains how and why G-D made the unlearned and that their purpose is to serve the Perfect human being (and explains how he serves hi, not by what you think of being his slave and such but by doing and running after his own thing like building palaces and trying to make $ for himself and then indirectly benefiting the perfect man who lives up to his potential by for example having that castle in the desert which the learned man finds shade in and other such examples.
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I think he will have to answer to God for why he wanted to consider most of humanity as slaves. On top of that he betrayed his own people by supporting concessions to the Fakestinians. I just don't understand why anybody would mourn this guy. He seemed to hate humanity in general.
I agree. Chaim is correct about Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Aryeh Deri, and the rest of Shas (or as I call it, ShaSS).
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Naa, I read recently by the Rambam as well saying similar thing although he doesn't say "goyim" he says that the unlearned are here to serve the perfect man.
That person's been dead a whole lot longer so that seems kind of irrelevant. Just because two people say something hateful doesn't make it suddenly not hateful.
How would you feel if someone like say, President Obama said "The Jews exist only to serve the Muslims, God gives them a long life so as to be better servants. Imagine that your camel would die, that would inconvenience you, so God gives them a long life". I'm sure people at JTF would be having conniption fits and giving him all those Yiddish and Hebrew curses, etc.
Let one of your guys say something identical to that about someone else and you're fine with it.
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Ruby- my point is that it is misunderstood. Again when I read the Rambam I don't nor didn't see anything hateful. He was saying that a human being has to live up to their potential, if they dont use their human mind to reach G-D then they aren't "human" in the full sense, again I might not be using the correct wording and the explanation but w/e it is what it is.
Also Jews generally are very antagonistic to this but I did hear from some Christians actually that they say that by the Prophets it says that nations will serve Israel, something about planting vineyards for Israel. But again I'm not saying it nor should you think that I am promoting it.
Also I think in the context that he was saying it he was saying that after the Messianic time gentiles will merit to live a long life.
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How would you feel if someone like say, President Obama said "The Jews exist only to serve the Muslims, God gives them a long life so as to be better servants. Imagine that your camel would die, that would inconvenience you, so God gives them a long life". I'm sure people at JTF would be having conniption fits and giving him all those Yiddish and Hebrew curses, etc.
I would laugh.
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I don't know what the Rambam said or if he meant anything like what Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said. I can't comment on that. But I do think a lot of people would find what ROY said very hurtful. But aside from that, his decisions led to great harm for the Jewish nation and thousands of individual Jews that were murdered or permanently maimed from Arab terrorism that Shas enabled (in exchange for some gelt and for some of its followers not having to get a job). I do not curse ROY, but I'm not one of his fans.
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I don't know what the Rambam said or if he meant anything like what Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said. I can't comment on that. But I do think a lot of people would find what ROY said very hurtful. But aside from that, his decisions led to great harm for the Jewish nation and thousands of individual Jews that were murdered or permanently maimed from Arab terrorism that Shas enabled (in exchange for some gelt and for some of its followers not having to get a job). I do not curse ROY, but I'm not one of his fans.
You know what I resent you repeating the usual gentile accusations against Jews as money grabbers and only interested in $ and such. To Jews reading this please be careful with that you say and how you expess yourselves. We do have a problem with Shas and Rabbi Ovadi's position but it is a Haskafic problem and let's leave it as such.
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Also 1 more point- besides representing ourselves, we are also in a way representing the teachings and ways of Rav Kahane ZTL HYD, writing and saying some things that he didn't and definitely wouldn't do, would and does paint a negative picture about the Rav's legacy and people would accuse of Rav Kahane ZTL HYD promoting in fighting within Am Yisrael and such.
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You know what I resent you repeating the usual gentile accusations against Jews as money grabbers and only interested in $ and such. To Jews reading this please be careful with that you say and how you expess yourselves. We do have a problem with Shas and Rabbi Ovadi's position but it is a Haskafic problem and let's leave it as such.
I don't think Jews are money-grabbers, but I do think the Shas party is profoundly greedy and corrupt. They sold the entire Jewish nation down the river for gelt for their schools and programs and so that some of their followers didn't have to work for a living.
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Everyone gets money for their schools and programs. Democrats and republicans do that as well for example and the system in Israel is set up even more soo like this.
Secular schools get $ for their schooling (something like 4 times the cost of a Religious school), why would it be a problem for Religious schools to also get $ for religious education (or the various educations that the parents want- National Religious and such as well). Everyone get's $ and its either you take or you dont have education. (or send children to school with Atheist and secular teachers) That's the system. And Arutz Sheva had article showing that they didn't/dont take more in proportion as the leftists usually accuse Haredim of doing.
Dude forget it, its a long history as well and at what times and what they did and didn't do at what times (different times as well when the party was good then bad, then good again and now perhaps back to bad).
My opinion- Shas was good at the beginning, it was good for them to stand up for impoverished Sefardim who were discriminated against. It also included Rav Yaakov Yosef ZTL who was very pro Eress Yisrael. Then they went bad, then good under for some time and on the local level promoting settling Eretz Yisrael (like in "East Jerusalem") and now unfortunately it will probably go leftist (and then either plunge in votes, or change their ways of thinking and policy or splitt.
+ Also perhaps they viewed and view the "cultural war" within Israel more important then the outside wars.
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I don't think Jews are money-grabbers, but I do think the Shas party is profoundly greedy and corrupt. They sold the entire Jewish nation down the river for gelt for their schools and programs and so that some of their followers didn't have to work for a living.
I think this is an absolutely fair criticism. Some people and orgs just are this way (Jew or gentile). I personally think Rav Kahane WOULD have pointed out the corruption of Shas. Had he not been murdered shas would be nothing today IMO. So many sephardim supported rabbi kahane. And he lived in the pre oslo era. Shas didn't do such unspeakable evil in his day and it was. Still a relatively new party. There wasn't such a need to condemn them yet.
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YU Talmidim don't call him evil, gerer chassidim don't call him evil,only you do.
You ask what he accomplished, I honestly don't know much about him but I know tons of Jews consider him a great scholar , including Rav Yakov Weinberg zt"l of ner yisrael, whose talmidim say he considered rav shach the leading halachic authority of eretz yisrael. Anyway why don't you learn about what he accomplished instead of judging based on some meaningless bombastic comments he made.
Did the L Rebbe give farbrengen after the stroke? I know an elderly Jew personally who used to go to the farbrengens of the rebbe and when at one of them they declared him moshiach and he said nothing, this Jew stopped going to any farbrengens and disconnected from chabad entirely.
The Rebbe could not speak after the stroke nor according to some was he aware of what was going on after the stroke. They just put him out in front of the crowd like a display he was incapable of cognizant communication after the stroke
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From an outside source (Askenasi LOL)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2pN9OgCFpY
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Rabbis should not be "rockstars" (and neither should Christian ministers or other religious figures). The title is one of holiness, not fame and fortune and popularity. Generally, if a religious figure is enormously popular it means they have watered down the message of their religion's respective holy writings, or is saying something blatantly whorish (like "G-d wants you to be rich!").
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Rabbis should not be "rockstars" (and neither should Christian ministers or other religious figures). The title is one of holiness, not fame and fortune and popularity. Generally, if a religious figure is enormously popular it means they have watered down the message of their religion's respective holy writings, or is saying something blatantly whorish (like "G-d wants you to be rich!").
Just the title, never mind it, don't care about it but what was said in it I posted for others to see.
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The Rebbe could not speak after the stroke nor according to some was he aware of what was going on after the stroke. They just put him out in front of the crowd like a display he was incapable of cognizant communication after the stroke
Well then this farbrengen was before his illness because he was still saying Torah at them at that point. Sorry to disappoint you.
I will ask my friend to make sure though in case I'm mistaken.
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Well then this farbrengen was before his illness because he was still saying Torah at them at that point. Sorry to disappoint you.
I will ask my friend to make sure though in case I'm mistaken.
Someone tried to explain it like this- that at the time they were saying he is Moshiah, he didn't protest because he didn't know, he though maybe he could be Moshiah soo he didn't say anything (didn't say he is and didn't say he is not).
W/E to CK I dont get why Rabbi Schach is disliked for saying what he did against Chabad but the Gra is respected (who said similar things, but generations ago) and refused to recognize Chabad and put them in Herem as well.
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Someone tried to explain it like this- that at the time they were saying he is Moshiah, he didn't protest because he didn't know, he though maybe he could be Moshiah soo he didn't say anything (didn't say he is and didn't say he is not).
W/E to CK I dont get why Rabbi Schach is disliked for saying what he did against Chabad but the Gra is respected (who said similar things, but generations ago) and refused to recognize Chabad and put them in Herem as well.
It wasn't just Chabad it was all Chassidus not Chabad in particular & that was because he was misled by his undelings.
FYI,The shitas in halacha are 95 percent the same.
Also FYI,Both wanted to have duchening even outside Israel but came to the same conclusion that they didn't want to make waves among the people.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :::D :::D :'(
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It wasn't just Chabad it was all Chassidus not Chabad in particular & that was because he was misled by his undelings.
FYI,The shitas in halacha are 95 percent the same.
Also FYI,Both wanted to have duchening even outside Israel but came to the same conclusion that they didn't want to make waves among the people.
Ookay. I also thought the same except that later I found out Chabad was the only Hassidut he was familiar with and he was against Hassidut because of Chabad (in essence against Chabad and by extension others because of Chabad in particular).
Regardless his words were more harsh then Rav Schach and what Rav Schach said (and the fact that he was against Chabad) wasn't revolutionary at the least and more moderate then what the Gra said, but you respect the Gra while not Rav Schach?
Problem as I understand isn't Halacha its the philosophy differences. And what does duchening have anything to do with anything else? I am Sefardi we do and always did.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :::D :::D :'(
:::D you have mood swings.
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Ookay. I also thought the same except that later I found out Chabad was the only Hassidut he was familiar with and he was against Hassidut because of Chabad (in essence against Chabad and by extension others because of Chabad in particular).
Regardless his words were more harsh then Rav Schach and what Rav Schach said (and the fact that he was against Chabad) wasn't revolutionary at the least and more moderate then what the Gra said, but you respect the Gra while not Rav Schach?
Problem as I understand isn't Halacha its the philosophy differences. And what does duchening have anything to do with anything else? I am Sefardi we do and always did.
Actually that is not so the Vitebsker used to roll around in the snow & his (Gra's) underlings misled him.
My thing against Shach is not only the things he said about the Rebbe but against other Rabbanim like Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz,The Gerer Rebbe as well & the list goes on.
The man could not handle that others were more accomplished & more widely respected than him.
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Someone tried to explain it like this- that at the time they were saying he is Moshiah, he didn't protest because he didn't know, he though maybe he could be Moshiah soo he didn't say anything (didn't say he is and didn't say he is not).
No. He did know because they were announcing it publicly at the farbrengen to all the people there. And then he said and did nothing. That is what my friend told me and why he stopped going to farbrengens.
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Actually that is not so the Vitebsker used to roll around in the snow & his (Gra's) underlings misled him.
My thing against Shach is not only the things he said about the Rebbe but against other Rabbanim like Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz,The Gerer Rebbe as well & the list goes on.
The man could not handle that others were more accomplished & more widely respected than him.
As I said before, Not speaking for chabad but all the others you list: none of the followers and students of those people call him evil. Only you do.
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No. He did know because they were announcing it publicly at the farbrengen to all the people there. And then he said and did nothing. That is what my friend told me and why he stopped going to farbrengens.
I think you misunderstood me. I said this is what someone once claimed, that he didn't know if he was or wasn't the Moshiah. He thought that maybe he could have been soo he didn't protest- didn;t say yes and didn't say no.
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Actually that is not so the Vitebsker used to roll around in the snow & his (Gra's) underlings misled him.
My thing against Shach is not only the things he said about the Rebbe but against other Rabbanim like Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz,The Gerer Rebbe as well & the list goes on.
The man could not handle that others were more accomplished & more widely respected than him.
Don't know what or who the Vitebsker are. I heard of some (at least saying) to do that (roll around in snow) from some Kabbalistic sources as a Kapparah for certain sins. Apparently some did this in Jerusalem when it was snowing. My opinion- crazy.
You think the Gra was just simply mislead? He specifically attacked some of the writings and philosophy of Chabad. I dont think he would just refuse even to meet with someone simply by hearing from someone else. He probably read the manuscripts and/or saw some actions being done.
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Also you stated that the messicists are crazy, ookay, but how many are they? What % be honest. And why did they take over such buildings such as 770 (and why did your group let them?)
You do realize that what Rav Schach said that they will and creating new religion is not soo far fetched? What you think those Messicists will do in a generation or 2 (even now). That is how other religions started as well.
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I think you misunderstood me. I said this is what someone once claimed, that he didn't know if he was or wasn't the Moshiah. He thought that maybe he could have been soo he didn't protest- didn;t say yes and didn't say no.
For a rabbi to think "I could be the moshiach" is very problematic.
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Also you stated that the messicists are crazy, ookay, but how many are they? What % be honest. And why did they take over such buildings such as 770 (and why did your group let them?)
You do realize that what Rav Schach said that they will and creating new religion is not soo far fetched? What you think those Messicists will do in a generation or 2 (even now). That is how other religions started as well.
I think about 40-5% are Mishchichtim unfortunately.
:'(
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I think about 40-5% are Mishchichtim unfortunately.
:'(
Exactly. Soo what Rav Schach said is not soo wrong even by your numbers. ~ 50% is a very serious matter. Its basically a foundation to and for a new religion and perhaps like others (besides being against the Torah and G-D) after time they will develop antithesis towards the others (Jews) who didn't accept their messiah/"god" (for some already) and develop an antipathy specifically against us in particular since they will want and need us to verify that they are correct. It is a new religion basically just like the others and like the others, then they will take away more and more Misswoth and pray more and more towards this messiah/"god" instead of the 1 true G-D.
The unity of G-D is a foundation and absolute must for Am Yisrael. No "partners" at all.
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Exactly. Soo what Rav Schach said is not soo wrong even by your numbers. ~ 50% is a very serious matter. Its basically a foundation to and for a new religion and perhaps like others (besides being against the Torah and G-D) after time they will develop antithesis towards the others (Jews) who didn't accept their messiah/"god" (for some already) and develop an antipathy specifically against us in particular since they will want and need us to verify that they are correct. It is a new religion basically just like the others and like the others, then they will take away more and more Misswoth and pray more and more towards this messiah/"god" instead of the 1 true G-D.
The unity of G-D is a foundation and absolute must for Am Yisrael. No "partners" at all.
I agree with you on this & these people are extremely sick in the head !!!!!!
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I agree with you on this & these people are extremely sick in the head !!!!!!
Exactly, soo what the Gra and Rav Schach (especially Rav Schach which is much closer to these times and those people were alive when Rav Schach was alive) isn't wrong and such. Soo why the "beef" with Rav Schach? Even your saying that he was correct in calling them out and warning the others about this phenomena that is about to take place (at his time about to take place) now we see the consequences in large numbers (according to your estimates) . Perhaps the Gra saw this generations ago and what it will develop into.
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Exactly, soo what the Gra and Rav Schach (especially Rav Schach which is much closer to these times and those people were alive when Rav Schach was alive) isn't wrong and such. Soo why the "beef" with Rav Schach? Even your saying that he was correct in calling them out and warning the others about this phenomena that is about to take place (at his time about to take place) now we see the consequences in large numbers (according to your estimates) . Perhaps the Gra saw this generations ago and what it will develop into.
So what do you say about the Na Nachs & the followers of HaRav Ovadia who think that their guy is Moshiach?
Shach was just plain evil what did he have against Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz & the Gerrer Rebbe?
He was a menuval clear & simple.
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So what do you say about the Na Nachs & the followers of HaRav Ovadia who think that their guy is Moshiach?
Shach was just plain evil what did he have against Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz & the Gerrer Rebbe?
He was a menuval clear & simple.
Rav Ovadia doesn't nor has he ever had followers that ever declared him Moshiah. You are simply making things up. Not Moshiah, not partnership with G-D or anything. I know what they said and say they love him for his abilities of quoting sources and being able to answer hard questions with proofs and sources all by heart. Basically they value his learning skills, that is completely different then saying that their Rabbi, or like Chabad Rebbe's is "partners with G-D" or some of the other things- as you yourself know what they say.
Na Nach's and Rebbe Nachman did have some problems with his teachings. Not everything should or could be accepted. Some was/is very good others not soo much for example going to his kever and such.
Your "beef" with Rav Schach is what he said about Chabad, all the rest are just commentary (additional things you need to verify your antithesis towards him).
Chaim himself said the problems he had with the followers of Rav Solovetchic (not the Rav himself), that they are more leftist and such. You never said anything against Chaim for it. Soo you dont have a problem in someone calling them out but just use that to attach it to him calling out Chabad.
R Steinzaltz- I explained before why and anyway his words were probably good for his followers and not to use those books. For the rest it doesn't matter, if anything it boosted his sales and at the same time for those it wouldn't be useful for keeps them away.
I dont know about Gerrer Rebbe and what they stand for or what he said any anything connected, but at least admit that had he not said anything against Chabad you wouldn't have beef with him.
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Anyway enough of this.
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Rav Ovadia doesn't nor has he ever had followers that ever declared him Moshiah. You are simply making things up. Not Moshiah, not partnership with G-D or anything. I know what they said and say they love him for his abilities of quoting sources and being able to answer hard questions with proofs and sources all by heart. Basically they value his learning skills, that is completely different then saying that their Rabbi, or like Chabad Rebbe's is "partners with G-D" or some of the other things- as you yourself know what they say.
Na Nach's and Rebbe Nachman did have some problems with his teachings. Not everything should or could be accepted. Some was/is very good others not soo much for example going to his kever and such.
Your "beef" with Rav Schach is what he said about Chabad, all the rest are just commentary (additional things you need to verify your antithesis towards him).
Chaim himself said the problems he had with the followers of Rav Solovetchic (not the Rav himself), that they are more leftist and such. You never said anything against Chaim for it. Soo you dont have a problem in someone calling them out but just use that to attach it to him calling out Chabad.
R Steinzaltz- I explained before why and anyway his words were probably good for his followers and not to use those books. For the rest it doesn't matter, if anything it boosted his sales and at the same time for those it wouldn't be useful for keeps them away.
I dont know about Gerrer Rebbe and what they stand for or what he said any anything connected, but at least admit that had he not said anything against Chabad you wouldn't have beef with him.
I am not making up things at all I have actually met people that since his his death he is Moshiach.
I don't make things up.
I get around here alot in Jerusalem & this is no BS.
As for Shach what did he contribute to Klal Yisroel......NOTHING other than turing off Jews to Judaism that could have been mikareved if not for his disgusting hatred for all that are not like him.
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Anyway enough of this.
The most sensible thing I have heard you say in this thread in a LONG time...
I am really ashamed of this thread and just hope it will go away soon. Cannot believe this kind of thing is even acceptable at JTF...
Also, Breslev does not think Rabbi Nachman is moshiach. It is not the teaching, nor do most Breslev chassidim believe this. Na Nach is only a small fraction of Breslev also. There is a big difference between being Moshiach and being a Tzadik. But I am sick and tired of defending against slander.
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The most sensible thing I have heard you say in this thread in a LONG time...
I am really ashamed of this thread and just hope it will go away soon. Cannot believe this kind of thing is even acceptable at JTF...
Also, Breslev does not think Rabbi Nachman is moshiach. It is not the teaching, nor do most Breslev chassidim believe this. Na Nach is only a small fraction of Breslev also. There is a big difference between being Moshiach and being a Tzadik. But I am sick and tired of defending against slander.
Actually the Na Nachs think he is I have seen stickers all over the place that said Na Nach is the name of Moshiach.
Normal Breslovers are against Na Nach just as normal Chabad is against the yechi yodelers.
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CK get real. No one thinks that Rav Ovadia was/is the Moshiah. Who told you this? This was never ever mentioned nor was/is this serious in anyway like the Chabad were/are. Get real. I heard from a certain Misnaged Rabbi (who has family who are Chabad) say that they think that every group thinks their Rabbi or Rebbe is Moshiah, but this isn't true, its what Chabadniks project unto others and at the same time think that deep down all of us accept the Rebbe as Moshiah, yeaa right.
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Ck what you tried to claim, had it been soo even in the slightest way the media would be all over it. Even had their been a tiny fringe, they would love to see this and would publicize it all over. Soo please speak the truth and with facts.
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CK get real. No one thinks that Rav Ovadia was/is the Moshiah. Who told you this? This was never ever mentioned nor was/is this serious in anyway like the Chabad were/are. Get real. I heard from a certain Misnaged Rabbi (who has family who are Chabad) say that they think that every group thinks their Rabbi or Rebbe is Moshiah, but this isn't true, its what Chabadniks project unto others and at the same time think that deep down all of us accept the Rebbe as Moshiah, yeaa right.
I actually met some people that think that Rav Ovadia is Moshiach I am not making this up.
There actually exists a small portion that believes this
Just like the Na Nachs think that their guy is Moshiach.
I say it is no mitzvah to speculate who Moshiach will be & the normal Chabad rabbonim hold this as well.
Between all these nut jobs I say to them may the best Moshiach win,however I have no idea who it will be nor will I speculate.
When the real Moshiach comes everybody will know who is case closed.
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Actually the Na Nachs think he is I have seen stickers all over the place that said Na Nach is the name of Moshiach.
Normal Breslovers are against Na Nach just as normal Chabad is against the yechi yodelers.
So what about the Tikun Haklali that says "say NA-NACH-NACHMA-NACHMAN MEUMAN" for a good omen or "I hereby attach myself... in particular to the righteous sage, mainstay of the world, our Rabbi Nachmen..."
Should I not be saying that? Someone gave it to me...
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CK get real. No one thinks that Rav Ovadia was/is the Moshiah. Who told you this? This was never ever mentioned nor was/is this serious in anyway like the Chabad were/are. Get real. I heard from a certain Misnaged Rabbi (who has family who are Chabad) say that they think that every group thinks their Rabbi or Rebbe is Moshiah, but this isn't true, its what Chabadniks project unto others and at the same time think that deep down all of us accept the Rebbe as Moshiah, yeaa right.
Again, there is confusion about Tzadik versus Moshiach. I will admit that Chabad thinks Rebbe was a Tzadik, so too does Breslev believe that Rabbi Nachman was a Tzadik. There is a lot of Chassidic thought concerning how the Rebbe has qualities which permit him to bring unity to his students. But I am sure they don't believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. We all know that Moshiach is a central figure which unities all Jews together, who brings about the ingathering of exiles, who rebuilds the Temple, etc....
I believe that every Chassidic student believes his teacher is the Tzadik, and I have no problem with this.
RE: Na Nach.... I already said that they are a minority of Breslevers and they do not speak for the Breslev community. The Breslev which I respect are Rabbi Shalom Arush's Yeshiva Chut Shel Chessed along with Rabbi Lazer Brody....
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This thread is bordering on disgusting...
If there are people who believe their Rabbi is Moshiach they are mistaken because we are still in Galut, and the Temple remains unbuilt, and the Jewish people are not united, and peace does not rule on earth, and Torah does not fill the world like water... We know Moshiach is still coming, and we wait for him. Every Chabad Rabbi I know teaches this, I have listened to many and know several personally. I also listen to Breslev Rabbi's who also teach that Moshiach is coming.
What are we accomplishing here by slandering entire sects of Chassidic Judaism? I really wonder if only those who are slandering are doing so for not so pure reasons.
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I actually met some people that think that Rav Ovadia is Moshiach I am not making this up.
There actually exists a small portion that believes this
Regardless it was never said by anyone important (and this is the first time I ever even heard of anyone even thinking about it) . Also Rav Ovadia never said it or ever even hinted at this in the slightest way. Like their never was even a question of maybe, get what I'm saying? At the most it was said that he would be the one who would greet the Moshiah first and verify and also a dream he had of the Moshiah speaking with him, but that is all. They generally are are pashtanim and not as connected to mysticism and mysical type of teachings (although in some cases of Halacha since the Shulhan Aruch paskens certain ways according to the Kabbalah they follow it- mainly the Shulhan Aruch and its Psak Din)- something I differ with and dont personally do. All or most other cases- Pshat over Sod (they do).
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So what about the Tikun Haklali that says "say NA-NACH-NACHMA-NACHMAN MEUMAN" for a good omen or "I hereby attach myself... in particular to the righteous sage, mainstay of the world, our Rabbi Nachmen..."
Should I not be saying that? Someone gave it to me...
Just skipp it. Also better to learn Torah and Halacha then spending time reading even Tehillim (hold your tomatoes guys), but seriously dont read just senslessly without knowing, if you read with translation and understand different story, but just reading and expecting some miracle or something- dont count on it.
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So what do you say about the Na Nachs & the followers of HaRav Ovadia who think that their guy is Moshiach?
Shach was just plain evil what did he have against Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz & the Gerrer Rebbe?
He was a menuval clear & simple.
Speaking nonsense again. What did he have against them? Political rivalry, what else? So what. His hashkafa was wrong, simple as that. Doesn't make him an evil person or so called "menuval" (huh?)
Na nachs are nuts too. No sefardim think Rabbi ovadia Yosef was moshiach.
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Speaking nonsense again. What did he have against them? Political rivalry, what else? So what. His hashkafa was wrong, simple as that. Doesn't make him an evil person or so called "menuval" (huh?)
Na nachs are nuts too. No sefardim think Rabbi ovadia Yosef was moshiach.
Na na na nutz! :::D
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http://www.shmais.com/chabad-news/latest/item/what-rabbi-ovadia-yosef-wrote-to-the-rebbe
What Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Wrote to the Rebbe
Posted Thursday, Oct 10 2013 10:40pm in Chabad News
In a sefer called, Kovod Chachamim Ateres Paz, which was produced in honor of the Rebbe’s 87th birthday, there is a pilpul contributed by the late Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who passed away this week.
At the time, Rabbi Yosef was the Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, the Rishon Letzion. In an introduction to his pipul, Rabbi Yosef wrote, “This responsa is dedicated to the sefer Kavod LeMelachim in honor of the glory and light of the generation, the ‘rosh golas Ariel,’ the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who has reached his 87th year. The merit of his lofty actions in spreading Torah and pure faith to all corners of the world should bring him a long life of many years and days, with physical health … until the coming of Moshiach.”
(http://www.shmais.com/cache/com_zoo/images/144332_9a2728bba071b7d35c7aba8c81a3528c.jpg)
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I actually met some people that think that Rav Ovadia is Moshiach I am not making this up.
There actually exists a small portion that believes this
Just like the Na Nachs think that their guy is Moshiach.
I say it is no mitzvah to speculate who Moshiach will be & the normal Chabad rabbonim hold this as well.
Between all these nut jobs I say to them may the best Moshiach win,however I have no idea who it will be nor will I speculate.
When the real Moshiach comes everybody will know who is case closed.
I already know it is none of the people you just mentioned because they are all dead and already didn't achieve it in their lifetimes. What more obvious evidence could there be? Only a crazy person believes their dead rebbe was/is the moshiach or could be moshiach. Plain and simple.
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This thread is bordering on disgusting...
If there are people who believe their Rabbi is Moshiach they are mistaken because we are still in Galut, and the Temple remains unbuilt, and the Jewish people are not united, and peace does not rule on earth, and Torah does not fill the world like water... We know Moshiach is still coming, and we wait for him. Every Chabad Rabbi I know teaches this, I have listened to many and know several personally. I also listen to Breslev Rabbi's who also teach that Moshiach is coming.
What are we accomplishing here by slandering entire sects of Chassidic Judaism? I really wonder if only those who are slandering are doing so for not so pure reasons.
I don't know what you're reading but the only slander in this thread was against rav shach. None of the non messichists among any chassidic sects were spoken of negatively. Do you have a problem with criticism of messichists?
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KWRBT I agree, and Muman- I dont get your last post about Rav Ovadia's letter of the LR?
Also to CK- since the late Rebbe is dead and you agree that he cannot be the Moshiah, who is the Rebbe or your Rebbe now? Isn't the point of Hassidut to have a Rebbe, or it is somewhat like Breslev without a living Rebbe?
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I am pointing out that Rabbi Yosef had no problem with the Rebbe... He considered the Lubavitch Rebbe a Gadol HaDor...
And this bickering about messichist sects of Chassidic Judaism is going to reach nowhere...
Nobody reading this believes that their Rebbe was Moshiach. I have clearly stated that the argument against mesichists is simple. Should we spend weeks arguing about this?
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KWRBT I agree, and Muman- I dont get your last post about Rav Ovadia's letter of the LR?
Also to CK- since the late Rebbe is dead and you agree that he cannot be the Moshiah, who is the Rebbe or your Rebbe now? Isn't the point of Hassidut to have a Rebbe, or it is somewhat like Breslev without a living Rebbe?
Breslev and Chabad both don't have leaders of their Chassidic dynasty any more. But we are taught to 'Make a Rabbi for yourself' (Pirkie Avot)...
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter1-6a.html
"Yehoshua ben (son of) Perachia and Nittai of Arbel received the transmission from them [the rabbis of Mishna 4]. Yehoshua ben Perachia said: Make for yourself a rabbi, acquire for yourself a friend, and judge every person favorably."
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Breslev and Chabad both don't have leaders of their Chassidic dynasty any more. But we are taught to 'Make a Rabbi for yourself' (Pirkie Avot)...
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter1-6a.html
Ok but the main point in Chassidut in general is the idea of a "Rebbe". Since they are dead (from these groups) how does the Hassidut still function? Well with Breslov some still go to his kever and all, with Chabad the messicists cant get over the fact that he died soo some of them in 770 still pretend to recieve a dollar from him and salute him (no joke) and do similar things.
I am asking about the sane one's, how and why do they still go by the title of being Chabad for example when they don't have a Rebbe/leader leading them.
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Ok but the main point in Chassidut in general is the idea of a "Rebbe". Since they are dead (from these groups) how does the Hassidut still function? Well with Breslov some still go to his kever and all, with Chabad the messicists cant get over the fact that he died soo some of them in 770 still pretend to recieve a dollar from him and salute him (no joke) and do similar things.
I am asking about the sane one's, how and why do they still go by the title of being Chabad for example when they don't have a Rebbe/leader leading them.
Chabad and Breslev do not have a 'Rebbe' leading the organization, yet there are many great Rabbis who are considered 'Emissaries' of the Rebbe which have been sent to the four corners of the world to bring back the Jews who may have been lost. Chabad has many great rabbis who help many thousands of Jews..
Chabad is an organization, Lubavitch is the name of the Chassidic sect... The last Lubavitch 'Rebbe' was Rabbi M. Schneerson.
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Here is an example of the good work the Chabad organization does:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/172874
Following three months of beta testing with over 2,000 visitors, Colel Chabad officially opened its new "Pantry Packers" facility in Jerusalem on Friday. Colel Chabad is the social welfare arm of Chabad-Lubavitch. It is the largest and oldest organization in Israel tasked with providing food and social services for needy Israeli families, widows and orphans, Holocaust survivors, the elderly indigent and Russian immigrants.
“Pantry Packers is a packing facility for dried food basics such as rice and beans which are included in the monthly pantry baskets delivered by Colel Chabad to 5,000 of Israel’s neediest families”, says Rabbi Menachem Traxler, director of Pantry Packers.
The 5,000 square foot facility is made possible thanks to a gift from Daniel and Eugenia Fuchs and Family of Sao Paolo, Brazil. They were present at the grand opening along with the Executive Board of the Federação Israelita do Estado de São Paulo (FISESP).
What makes Pantry Packers unique is that it creates a news concept called “Tikkun Olam Tourism” which enables visitors to Israel to spend 90 minutes volunteering in a meaningful, hands-on way, toward alleviating hunger among Israel’s poorest.
“Based on our testing experience, Pantry Packers is the second most important stop on a visit to Jerusalem after the Western Wall”, says Traxler. “The facility is open by appointment to tourists of all faiths and ages, and is ideally suited for synagogue and church groups, and extended families. Every bag of food staples contains a slip of paper with the name of the volunteer group that packed it – so that the beneficiaries can know whom to thank in their hearts and in their prayers.”
The official ribbon cutting took place in the presence of Colel Chabad Executive Director Rabbi Sholom Duchman. Israel’s newly installed Chief Rabbi David Lau affixed the mezuzah to the main entrance. Also present were the directors of Israel’s leading tour operators who have been instrumental in scheduling a mandatory stop at Pantry Packers for their overseas tour groups.
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So what about the Tikun Haklali that says "say NA-NACH-NACHMA-NACHMAN MEUMAN" for a good omen or "I hereby attach myself... in particular to the righteous sage, mainstay of the world, our Rabbi Nachmen..."
Should I not be saying that? Someone gave it to me...
The saying or song " Na Nach" is the song of the redemption. It was supposedly given to Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser from Rabbi Nachman. By singing it, it's supposed to bring the redemption...
There is no harm in it! Just don't pray to, and worship idols! Rabbi Nachman was a GREAT RABBI! And could of been Moshiach, an was a Tzadik, but did not fulfill the prophecy. Like many others, but we can pray in the merit of a Tzadik...
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There is a Talmudic idea that in every generation there are 36 righteous/Tzadikim men...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/837699/jewish/Who-Are-the-36-Hidden-Tzadikim.htm
Question:
Who or what are the 36 holy people? I get the gist of such people being alive at one time, but are they still around? What is their purpose? Is it all a mystery?
Response:
Our holy books say that every generation actually has a minimum (there may be more) of 72 holy men, 36 who live in Israel, and 36 who live outside of Israel.
The number 36 corresponds to the 6 days of creation, and the 30 days of an average month. It also corresponds to the 36 candles kindled during Hanukkah.
The primary source for this teaching is in the Talmud, Succah 45b:
"The world never has less than thirty-six righteous men who receive the Divine Presence every day, for it is said, 'Happy are they that wait lo [for Him]' and the numerical value of 'lo' is thirty-six."
In merit of these righteous individuals, our world receives the divine vitality that keeps it going. We do not know for sure, however, the identity of all these extraordinary individuals.
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The saying or song " Na Nach" is the song of the redemption. It was supposedly given to Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser from Rabbi Nachman. By singing it, it's supposed to bring the redemption...
There is no harm in it! Just don't pray to, and worship idols! Rabbi Nachman was a GREAT RABBI! And could of been Moshiach, an was a Tzadik, but did not fulfill the prophecy. Like many others, but we can pray in the merit of a Tzadik...
I agree that Rabbi Nachman was a Tzadik, and I understand the Breslevers learning his works and praising his deeds.
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Ok but the main point in Chassidut in general is the idea of a "Rebbe". Since they are dead (from these groups) how does the Hassidut still function? Well with Breslov some still go to his kever and all, with Chabad the messicists cant get over the fact that he died soo some of them in 770 still pretend to recieve a dollar from him and salute him (no joke) and do similar things.
I am asking about the sane one's, how and why do they still go by the title of being Chabad for example when they don't have a Rebbe/leader leading them.
The sane ones are operating like Breslov & go to the Kever,they even built a shul adjacent to the kever in Queens.
The yechi yodelers boycott the kever because they think he is still alive & kicking.
That is what shrinks call denial.
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Nobody reading this believes that their Rebbe was Moshiach.
How do you know who reads this? That was a silly statement. Either way, it's irrelevant.
I have clearly stated that the argument against mesichists is simple. Should we spend weeks arguing about this?
It is YOU who took issue with people in this thread accusing them of SLANDER because they spoke negatively about messichists. So for that reason I ask you, do you have a problem with criticism of messichists? If so, something is seriously wrong. And if not, then why do you react the way you do, as if someone is attacking you when no one is, and accuse people of things they didn't do or say?
If you have no problem with criticism of messechists, then take back your accusations against the forum members here. (Or you can redirect your accusation against CK since he really did slander someone (rav Shach). )
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I don't know what you're reading but the only slander in this thread was against rav shach. None of the non messichists among any chassidic sects were spoken of negatively. Do you have a problem with criticism of messichists?
Not at all they should be ostracized.
Unfortunately the rabbonim in Chabad are taking the attitude if you ignore them they will go away,they are wrong they must be shunned IMHO.
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How do you know who reads this? That was a silly statement. Either way, it's irrelevant.
It is YOU who took issue with people in this thread accusing them of SLANDER because they spoke negatively about messichists. So for that reason I ask you, do you have a problem with criticism of messichists? If so, something is seriously wrong. And if not, then why do you react the way you do, as if someone is attacking you when no one is, and accuse people of things they didn't do or say?
If you have no problem with criticism of messechists, then take back your accusations against the forum members here. (Or you can redirect your accusation against CK since he really did slander someone (rav Shach). )
Yes I did because Shach slandered the Rebbe,Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz & the Gerrer Rebbe & he eventually turned on Rav Ovadia too. The man was a rabid dog who was fill with hate for other Jews.
Having said that I do have problems with some Rav Soloveitchiks students because of their left wing stands,but the Rav himself was a godol & very respected
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Round and round....
Kwrbt... This entire thread consists of slander against various Rabbis... The entire messichist thing is irrelevant...
Who here supports messichist beliefs? Why was it even mentioned in a thread about the passing of Rabbi Yosef?
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Round and round....
Kwrbt... This entire thread consists of slander against various Rabbis... The entire messichist thing is irrelevant...
Who here supports messichist beliefs? Why was it even mentioned in a thread about the passing of Rabbi Yosef?
Good point & let's stick to the topic at hand about the loss of HaRav Ovadia.
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Since Rabbi Shach's name has been mentioned in this discussion, assuming their information is accurate, there is a Wikipedia article about him
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elazar_Shach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elazar_Shach)
concerning his views and his history.
Since the Vilna Gaon's name has also been mentioned previously in this discussion, one should be aware that the Chassidim of today behave differently than those faced by the Vilna Gaon (at least some of them) so don't be to quick to come to a conclusion.
Secondly there was a theological argument between the Vilna Gaon (representing the more classical view) and the Chassidic view about the nature of G-d. We are not so aware of this conflict today because one of the Vilna Gaon's chief students Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin in Nefesh Hachaim sided (for the most part) with the Chassidic view of the Baal Hatanya (see in Hebrew, Rabbi Menachem Kasher's Torah Shleima, Miluim to the book of Shmot, siman 15 for more details)
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One possible difference however, between Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin and some Chassidim is that he says his theoretical views about the nature of G-d should cause no change in halacha, in how we act and serve G-d.
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Not at all they should be ostracized.
Unfortunately the rabbonim in Chabad are taking the attitude if you ignore them they will go away,they are wrong they must be shunned IMHO.
Yeah i agree with you on that, my question was for muman. At this point it's difficult for them practically to effectively shun them because it already grew too big and there are so many.
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Yes I did because Shach slandered the Rebbe,Rav Soloveitchik,Rav Steinsaltz & the Gerrer Rebbe & he eventually turned on Rav Ovadia too. The man was a rabid dog who was fill with hate for other Jews.
Having said that I do have problems with some Rav Soloveitchiks students because of their left wing stands,but the Rav himself was a godol & very respected
The point I'm trying to makehere is that two wrongs don't make a right. Just because he said some nasty things about good people doesn't make him subject to evil speech.
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Round and round....
Kwrbt... This entire thread consists of slander against various Rabbis... The entire messichist thing is irrelevant...
Who here supports messichist beliefs? Why was it even mentioned in a thread about the passing of Rabbi Yosef?
Baloney. This entire thread is definitely NOT slander of good rabbis. I only saw one get slandered and several people are defending him against the slander. So how does that fit with your accusation? It doesn't.
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One possible difference however, between Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin and some Chassidim is that he says his theoretical views about the nature of G-d should cause no change in halacha, in how we act and serve G-d.
Correct. He "kashered" the baal hatanya/chassidic worldview and then chassidified the Litvish world with the kashered chassidus. There is no real divide anymore. I don't know why any time someone on the forum speaks critically regarding a chassid or rebbi, they are accused of being hateful misnaged.
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The saying or song " Na Nach" is the song of the redemption. It was supposedly given to Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser from Rabbi Nachman. By singing it, it's supposed to bring the redemption...
There is no harm in it! Just don't pray to, and worship idols! Rabbi Nachman was a GREAT RABBI! And could of been Moshiach, an was a Tzadik, but did not fulfill the prophecy. Like many others, but we can pray in the merit of a Tzadik...
Yea right ???
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Correct. He "kashered" the baal hatanya/chassidic worldview and then chassidified the Litvish world with the kashered chassidus. There is no real divide anymore.
Even though the Gra usually get's the credit for stomping out the Hassidim and mysticism in general, he also was somewhat mystically inclined.
If I had to go back I would probably go to the Yaabess. Today's firm world has a lot of focus on the "spiritual" or Ruhnios instead of the Pshat and dealing with our problems physically.
Ironically though on the other hand the more mystically crazies are the one's on the front lines for the physical. Its a whole kookoo mess (like the messicists who fight for the land of Israel and some Breslovers).
But anyway this mystical type reliance and all is what's causing a lot of the problems. Some literally are preaching from very passive (on what to do) books like the Zohar (which was written in the exile) and such and just expecting things to happen.
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The slander continues...
The Jewish people are a diverse people. Those who seek to divide us and label anyone who observes the commandments differently are the troublemakers of our people. I see a lot of this from some of the members here, and this saddens me greatly. This one calls that one 'Yeshivish' , that one calls this one 'Litvish' and that one 'crazy'.
I am sure that those who are throwing around these labels are themselves being judged by others for the worse. You who divide the Jewish people are only assisting in the destruction of our people.
The whole Chassidic movement attempts to bring all Jews together so we can accomplish the goals laid out in our Torah. I suspect those who are using these labels are just too young to know what damage they are doing. Judaism is a spiritual religion, the mystical aspects have kept us alive in the long exile.
If you think your 'rational' judaism is going to change the world, go do it. Stop pointing fingers at those who are much more successfull at keeping Jews Jewish than the 'rationalists'.
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Yea right ???
"Yeah right" what?
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"Yeah right" what?
Your statements I quoted. Go back and see.
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Your statements I quoted. Go back and see.
The whole thing?
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I just heard from someone else that (they claim) that Rav Ovadia Yosef REVERSED his ruling on "land for peace"
now I also found this- "Letter Reveals Rav Ovadia Retracted ‘Land for Peace’ Ruling in 2003"
Read more at: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/letter-reveals-rav-ovadia-reversed-land-for-peace-ruling-in-2003/2013/10/09/2/
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I just heard from someone else that (they claim) that Rav Ovadia Yosef REVERSED his ruling on "land for peace"
now I also found this- "Letter Reveals Rav Ovadia Retracted ‘Land for Peace’ Ruling in 2003"
Read more at: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/letter-reveals-rav-ovadia-reversed-land-for-peace-ruling-in-2003/2013/10/09/2/
I heard this from my Rabbi last Shabbat. I was saying that I had heard that he regretted his original opinion.
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The slander continues...
The Jewish people are a diverse people. Those who seek to divide us and label anyone who observes the commandments differently are the troublemakers of our people. I see a lot of this from some of the members here, and this saddens me greatly. This one calls that one 'Yeshivish' , that one calls this one 'Litvish' and that one 'crazy'.
I am sure that those who are throwing around these labels are themselves being judged by others for the worse. You who divide the Jewish people are only assisting in the destruction of our people.
The whole Chassidic movement attempts to bring all Jews together so we can accomplish the goals laid out in our Torah. I suspect those who are using these labels are just too young to know what damage they are doing. Judaism is a spiritual religion, the mystical aspects have kept us alive in the long exile.
If you think your 'rational' judaism is going to change the world, go do it. Stop pointing fingers at those who are much more successfull at keeping Jews Jewish than the 'rationalists'.
Litvish and yeshivish are terms which frum people self identify with. So there is no slander involved. Maybe you are just not familiar with this terminology so you think there is insult where there is none. Your accusations are outrageous and have zero connection to anything I wrote in this thread.
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. I was saying that I had heard that he regretted his original opinion.
heard from where? Your noggin?
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Litvish and yeshivish are terms which frum people self identify with. So there is no slander involved. Maybe you are just not familiar with this terminology so you think there is insult where there is none. Your accusations are outrageous and have zero connection to anything I wrote in this thread.
The funny thing is that neither the terms Litvish nor Yeshivish were used in all of this thread. Nor are they even bad in any way (at least in my mind). Crazy was used a number of times but that referred to messicists first by a Lubavitcher who isn't one and is against them.
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heard from where? Your noggin?
No, I read this....And my Rabbi also said this. But you are just looking for problems, you care nothing for facts. I am going to ignore you KWRBT, you are a sorry soul..
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/letter-reveals-rav-ovadia-reversed-land-for-peace-ruling-in-2003/2013/10/09/2/
(http://cdn.jewishpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/letter.jpg.jpg)
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Litvish and yeshivish are terms which frum people self identify with. So there is no slander involved. Maybe you are just not familiar with this terminology so you think there is insult where there is none. Your accusations are outrageous and have zero connection to anything I wrote in this thread.
Yes, self identify... But when used pejoratively they become insults.
As always you think everyone is talking about you... Even when they are not.. Get off your high horse KWRBT, you ain't as good as you think you are. What do you contribute? All I have ever seen you do is create division.
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KWRBT,
Pull your finger out of your arse and do something positive rather than pick fights. You are a very prickly creature. I can search the archives and quote all the times you make snarky statements which are entirely uncalled for.
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By the way, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef wrote that he reversed his opinion in 2003 (over 10 years ago)... This is not something new which happened near his death..
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All in all it does seem bad that Shas supported the process. It is my belief that the Rabbi did not think Oslo was a good decision toward the end of his life.
No evidence of this whatsoever.
To the contrary. No apology, no teshuva, no change. They also continued to support all thesteps of oslo such as prisoner releases giving it false halachik veneer.
KWRBT,
BUSTED BUDDY!!!! :P
You are full of horse pucky buddy.... No evidence? Here is the evidence IN YOUR FACE!
(http://cdn.jewishpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/letter.jpg.jpg)
Letter Reveals Rav Ovadia Retracted ‘Land for Peace’ Ruling in 2003 Another Big Lie is exposed. Rav Ovadia favored giving up land for peace in 1993. But when the PA blew up the Oslo Accords 10 years later, the rabbi ruled, “Oslo is null and void. This is not the peace I meant.”
Read more at: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/letter-reveals-rav-ovadia-reversed-land-for-peace-ruling-in-2003/2013/10/09/2/
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KWRBT,
Pull your finger out of your arse and do something positive rather than pick fights. You are a very prickly creature. I can search the archives and quote all the times you make snarky statements which are entirely uncalled for.
Muman, let them be. They must of had an easy life, and have not seen any hard times. To them the physical world is the only thing that exists...
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Muman he isn't wrong entirely on the problems with Shas and what they did and what they let go through at times. (Disasters).
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Muman, let them be. They must of had an easy life, and have not seen any hard times. To them the physical world is the only thing that exists...
You always say very weird things.
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Muman he isn't wrong entirely on the problems with Shas and what they did and what they let go through at times. (Disasters).
Tag,
I hear what you are saying and I have never defended the Shas party and agree that Ari Deryeh is terrible for the Jewish people.
My point was in defense of the Rabbi who has been accused of supporting Oslo till the end. I hope to avoid this thread in the future.
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Tag,
I hear what you are saying and I have never defended the Shas party and agree that Ari Deryeh is terrible for the Jewish people.
My point was in defense of the Rabbi who has been accused of supporting Oslo till the end. I hope to avoid this thread in the future.
It is well known that Rav Ovadia changed his opinion.
He was a great man,Deri is the problem.
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No evidence of this whatsoever.
To the contrary. No apology, no teshuva, no change. They also continued to support all thesteps of oslo such as prisoner releases giving it false halachik veneer.
KWRBT,
BUSTED BUDDY!!!! :P
You are full of horse pucky buddy.... No evidence? Here is the evidence IN YOUR FACE!
(http://cdn.jewishpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/letter.jpg.jpg)
A private letter that no one knows about until the press digs it up years later? And all the while his party continued tosupport the individual steps of oslo as. Socalled coalition "king maker" for years and years?
Wow, do you have any idea what real teshuva actually entails? This is not it.
And of course you did not know about this letter, you just assumed,so my original point is valid too.
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Muman, let them be. They must of had an easy life, and have not seen any hard times. To them the physical world is the only thing that exists...
Idiotic statements, lover boy.
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It is well known that Rav Ovadia changed his opinion.
He was a great man,Deri is the problem.
Well known? Then why is it being reported 10/9/2013 by a news site? Absurd.
And timed perfectly to be released after he passed away? Who orchestrated this?
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Yes, self identify... But when used pejoratively they become insults.
I did not use the terms perjoratively, nor do I think I've ever heard anyone do that. How exactly is it used as a perjorative. Once again you are reading malice into my words when there isn't any. It's pure clown behavior muman because my family is from Lithuania several generations ago and therefore I am a litvak, or Litvish.
As always you think everyone is talking about you... Even when they are not.. Get off your high horse KWRBT, you ain't as good as you think you are. What do you contribute? All I have ever seen you do is create division.
More clown stuff accusing me of divisiveness (that terrible word!). Meanwhile I am the one who used the term litvish in this thread and you accused me but are now trying to back out of it. Classy.
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KWRBT,
Pull your finger out of your arse and do something positive rather than pick fights. You are a very prickly creature. I can search the archives and quote all the times you make snarky statements which are entirely uncalled for.
:::D
Quote me, champ.
Or, how about you learn Torah instead?
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By the way, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef wrote that he reversed his opinion in 2003 (over 10 years ago)... This is not something new which happened near his death..
And yet it was just reported on october 9th. That makes a lot of sense
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Rabbi Yosef continued to endorse the oslo architect shimon peres well past 2003
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http://pjmedia.com/barryrubin/2013/10/09/ovadia-yosef-was-ready-for-compromise-peace-but-concluded-correctly-it-wasnt-possible/
In 2003 Rabbi Yosef wrote:
“I want to clarify my position with regard to Yesha [the West Bank settlements]. Not once have I thought that the Halachic [Jewish religious law] ruling which I issued at the time regarding ‘territories in exchange for peace’ is not valid and does not apply to the current situation. I had intended only a true peace, one in which Jerusalem and its surrounding neighborhoods would rest secure, in peace and harmony. But now we see that on the contrary, handing over territory from our holy land endangers lives. We never intended such a peace. Therefore the Oslo agreement is null and void. For I am for peace and they are for war [Quote from Psalm 120] and we have no one to rely on but our Father in Heaven….”
“With much love, and one who seeks your well being with all my heart and soul; Ovadia Yosef.”
That is the obvious experience that changed millions of Israeli minds, making them sure that peace isn’t going to happen: the realization that handing over territory will not bring peace, that Arab states (and Iran or Turkey) will not accept Israel. The concept of ‘territories in exchange for peace’ is not valid and does not apply to the current situation; or at least it can and will be reversed by Islamists.
http://www.israellycool.com/2010/08/29/the-day-in-israel-sunday-aug-29th-2010/
Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat on Sunday slammed remarks by the spiritual leader of Israel’s leading ultra-Orthodox party, who said the Palestinians should “perish”, saying that it was paramount to incitement to genocide.
Erekat called on the Israeli government to denounce the remarks by Israel’s former chief rabbi Ovadia Yosef, and to take action against racist remarks by other elected officials. He also criticized Israel for allowing the incident to pass without condemnation.
Yosef had said during his weekly Shabbat sermon that the Palestinians, namely Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, should perish from the world. Yosef, a founder of the Shas Party, also described Palestinians as evil, bitter enemies of Israel.
“All these evil people should perish from this world … God should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians,” Yosef had said.
The 89-year-old is a respected religious scholar but is also known for vitriolic comments about Arabs, secular Jews, liberals, women and gays, among others.
“Is this how the Israeli government prepares its public for a peace agreement?” Erekat said, days before Israeli and Palestinian leaders were scheduled to meet in Washington for the launch of renewed direct peace negotiations.
“While the PLO is ready to resume negotiations in seriousness and good faith, a member of the Israeli government is calling for our destruction,” Erekat said. “It is an insult to all our efforts to advance the negotiations process.”
Erekat called on Israel “do more about peace and stop spreading hatred” and said Yosef’s comments could be placed within the larger context of Israel’s “policy against a Palestinian state” such as settlement expansion, home demolitions, among other things.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday distanced himself from Yosef’s remarks, but stopped short of a condemnation. “Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s remarks do not reflect Netanyahu’s views, nor do they reflect the stance of the Israeli government,” Netanyahu’s office said in a statement.
“Israel plans to take part in peace negotiations out of a desire to advance toward a peace agreement with the Palestinians that will end the conflict and ensure peace, security and good neighborly relations between the two peoples,” the statement continued.
http://rabbipruzansky.com/
Most infamously, Chacham Ovadia issued an opinion in the 1990s in support of surrendering parts of the land of Israel for the sake of peace, and the Oslo debacle could not have occurred without the support of Shas, either implicitly or explicitly. From this vantage point, his political instincts were not always keen. But two points must be underscored that are widely overlooked: his decision was in favor of real peace, not the piecemeal destruction of Israel. (And few authorities would argue that maintaining every inch in the land of Israel in the face of national suicide is a plausible halachic approach; if it were, then even a tactical retreat in the heat of battle would be prohibited.)
The second point is even more telling: he publicly retracted his decision in 2003, writing that “the Oslo Accords are null and void” and that the peace of Oslo –the death and maiming of thousands of Jews – is not what he meant by “peace.” But the left has largely ignored the retraction. Two truths must be recognized: if another surrender agreement is tabled, Chacham Ovadia’s psak will be trotted out again, whether warranted or not (one can always argue that the coming peace will be the glorious peace anticipated by the psak, whether true or not – always the weakest link in the decision itself); and his support of Oslo was utilized disingenuously by Oslo-ites. They would have paid no attention to him had he opposed it like more than 90% of the Rabbis in Israel, to whom they paid no attention. (His late son, Rav Yaakov Yosef, notably disagreed with his father on this issue.)
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lover boy.
Name calling again huh? Real mature.
Good day sir.
Lisa adds: If you want to call out someone for name calling, it's best that you don't post an icon of the middle finger, which is rude and vulgar.
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http://pjmedia.com/barryrubin/2013/10/09/ovadia-yosef-was-ready-for-compromise-peace-but-concluded-correctly-it-wasnt-possible/
In 2003 Rabbi Yosef wrote:
“I want to clarify my position with regard to Yesha [the West Bank settlements]. Not once have I thought that the Halachic [Jewish religious law] ruling which I issued at the time regarding ‘territories in exchange for peace’ is not valid and does not apply to the current situation. I had intended only a true peace, one in which Jerusalem and its surrounding neighborhoods would rest secure, in peace and harmony. But now we see that on the contrary, handing over territory from our holy land endangers lives. We never intended such a
peace. Therefore the Oslo agreement is null and void. For I am for peace and they are for war [Quote from Psalm 120] and we have no one to rely on but our Father in Heaven….”
“With much love, and one who seeks your well being with all my heart and soul; Ovadia Yosef.”
That is the obvious experience that changed millions of Israeli minds, making them sure that peace isn’t going to happen: the realization that handing over territory will not bring peace, that Arab states (and Iran or Turkey) will not accept Israel. The concept of ‘territories in exchange for peace’ is not valid and does not apply to the current situation; or at least it can and will be reversed by Islamists.
http://www.israellycool.com/2010/08/29/the-day-in-israel-sunday-aug-29th-2010/
Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat on Sunday slammed remarks by the spiritual leader of Israel’s leading ultra-Orthodox party, who said the Palestinians should “perish”, saying that it was paramount to incitement to genocide.
Erekat called on the Israeli government to denounce the remarks by Israel’s former chief rabbi Ovadia Yosef, and to take action against racist remarks by other elected officials. He also criticized Israel for allowing the incident to pass without condemnation.
Yosef had said during his weekly Shabbat sermon that the Palestinians, namely Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, should perish from the world. Yosef, a founder of the Shas Party, also described Palestinians as evil, bitter enemies of Israel.
“All these evil people should perish from this world … God should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians,” Yosef had said.
The 89-year-old is a respected religious scholar but is also known for vitriolic comments about Arabs, secular Jews, liberals, women and gays, among others.
“Is this how the Israeli government prepares its public for a peace agreement?” Erekat said, days before Israeli and Palestinian leaders were scheduled to meet in Washington for the launch of renewed direct peace negotiations.
“While the PLO is ready to resume negotiations in seriousness and good faith, a member of the Israeli government is calling for our destruction,” Erekat said. “It is an insult to all our efforts to advance the negotiations process.”
Erekat called on Israel “do more about peace and stop spreading hatred” and said Yosef’s comments could be placed within the larger context of Israel’s “policy against a Palestinian state” such as settlement expansion, home demolitions, among other things.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday distanced himself from Yosef’s remarks, but stopped short of a condemnation. “Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s remarks do not reflect Netanyahu’s views, nor do they reflect the stance of the Israeli government,” Netanyahu’s office said in a statement.
“Israel plans to take part in peace negotiations out of a desire to advance toward a peace agreement with the Palestinians that will end the conflict and ensure peace, security and good neighborly relations between the two peoples,” the statement continued.
http://rabbipruzansky.com/
Most infamously, Chacham Ovadia issued an opinion in the 1990s in support of surrendering parts of the land of Israel for the sake of peace, and the Oslo debacle could not have occurred without the support of Shas, either implicitly or explicitly. From this vantage point, his political instincts were not always keen. But two points must be underscored that are widely overlooked: his decision was in favor of real peace, not the piecemeal destruction of Israel. (And few authorities would argue that maintaining every inch in the land of Israel in the face of national suicide is a plausible halachic approach; if it were, then even a tactical retreat in the heat of battle would be prohibited.)
The second point is even more telling: he publicly retracted his decision in 2003, writing that “the Oslo Accords are null and void” and that the peace of Oslo –the death and maiming of thousands of Jews – is not what he meant by “peace.” But the left has largely ignored the retraction. Two truths must be recognized: if another surrender agreement is tabled, Chacham Ovadia’s psak will be trotted out again, whether warranted or not (one can always argue that the coming peace will be the glorious peace anticipated by the psak, whether true or not – always the weakest link in the decision itself); and his support of Oslo was utilized disingenuously by Oslo-ites. They would have paid no attention to him had he opposed it like more than 90% of the Rabbis in Israel, to whom they paid no attention. (His late son, Rav Yaakov Yosef, notably disagreed with his father on this issue.)
Once again this letter being reported after his death. The date of the article is october 9 2013.
Was this a letter? Or a diary entry? Inquiring minds would like to know
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzZZw2PzTuY
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Name calling again huh? Real mature.
Good day sir.
Lisa adds: If you want to call out someone for name calling, it's best that you don't post an icon of the middle finger, which is rude and vulgar.
Don't say thing like this:
Muman, let them be. They must of had an easy life, and have not seen any hard times. To them the physical world is the only thing that exists...
and then not expect a hostile reply.
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Sorry to be going back to this thread again, but I thought I would share something interesting I just saw from Yulkat Yosef Hilchot Shabbat
Page 6
http://www.puretorah.com/resources/Hilchot%20Shabbat%20Yalkut%20Yosef%204-28-09.pdf
9) One is allowed to rent an apartment to a Jew who is mechalel shabbat even though
the person will be mechalel shabbat in your apartment. It's better to make a condition
that the person won't desecrate in public. One is allowed to rent to a Non-Jew but must
remove the mezuzah. However, one cannot rent to a Muslim in Eretz Yisrael
nowadays.
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Video by Rav Bar-Hayim and Rav Bar-Hayim addressing this issue.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCejK6D0M0s
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=doJX0RPaCdw
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Given the damage caused by some of the halachic rulings of the spiritual leader of the Shas party, I was surprised by what the video said and did not say.