JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rivera on September 14, 2007, 07:45:25 PM
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I was wondering. this is a Jewish site. why is it working on the Sabbath? It should be close down from Friday evening to Saturday evening.
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I was wondering. this is a Jewish site. why is it working on the Sabbath? It should be close down from Friday evening to Saturday evening.
the english site isn't only Jewish.
But the hebrew forum is closed :
http://jtf.org/forum_hebrew/index.php
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Not eveyone is Jewish it's about 40%Jewish 60%none Jewish
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I was wondering. this is a Jewish site. why is it working on the Sabbath? It should be close down from Friday evening to Saturday evening.
the english site isn't only Jewish.
But the hebrew forum is closed :
http://jtf.org/forum_hebrew/index.php
Nice poam, by the way ;)
I am a little concern. How many Jewish members are on this site right now and not keeping the sabbath?
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I was wondering. this is a Jewish site. why is it working on the Sabbath? It should be close down from Friday evening to Saturday evening.
the english site isn't only Jewish.
But the hebrew forum is closed :
http://jtf.org/forum_hebrew/index.php
I am a little concern. How many Jewish members are on this site right now and not keeping the sabbath?
Few .
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I wonder...It doesn't seem to me that posting on the intenet is in violation of the Sabbath....anyone??
I suppose it depends on how you interpret things but I'm asking...anyone with an view please reply...I had never thought of an iternet forum as being a violation....however, it never occured to me before this.......
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In my opinion, it depends on the Jew...it depends on where he/she wants to build his fence. It also depends on what that person's Rebbi will say.
Does it go against the Torah rule of sabbath? Probably not, but then again, i'm not a rabbinical authority.
However, if one must build a "fence" to not be tempted to do business on Shabbat, then I would presume that going on the internet is not the right thing to do on Shabbat.
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I don't know if it violates the Sabbath, but I do worse things to violate the Sabbath than go online, such as doing course readings, assignments, and other study work. If you're Orthodox then I would say it almost assuredly violates the Sabbath.
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I wonder...It doesn't seem to me that posting on the intenet is in violation of the Sabbath....anyone??
I suppose it depends on how you interpret things but I'm asking...anyone with an view please reply...I had never thought of an iternet forum as being a violation....however, it never occured to me before this.......
It is a violation of the Sabbath. Even if a Jewish person is not religious Hashem See's it as a violation because Hashem See's all the Jewish people as one. when you as a Jewish person commites a sin all of the Jewish people suffer for it.
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I wonder...It doesn't seem to me that posting on the intenet is in violation of the Sabbath....anyone??
I suppose it depends on how you interpret things but I'm asking...anyone with an view please reply...I had never thought of an iternet forum as being a violation....however, it never occured to me before this.......
It is a violation of the Sabbath. Even if a Jewish person is not religious Hashem See's it as a violation because Hashem See's all the Jewish people as one. when you as a Jewish person commites a sin all of the Jewish people suffer for it.
and which religion is this you are following?
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I wonder...It doesn't seem to me that posting on the intenet is in violation of the Sabbath....anyone??
I suppose it depends on how you interpret things but I'm asking...anyone with an view please reply...I had never thought of an iternet forum as being a violation....however, it never occured to me before this.......
It is a violation of the Sabbath. Even if a Jewish person is not religious Hashem See's it as a violation because Hashem See's all the Jewish people as one. when you as a Jewish person commites a sin all of the Jewish people suffer for it.
and which religion is this you are following?
I am Noahide. And I know for a fact that G-D See's the Jewish people as one as [HE] is one.
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I was wondering. this is a Jewish site. why is it working on the Sabbath? It should be close down from Friday evening to Saturday evening.
Great question. Someone already answered it for you. The majority of our posters are Gentiles. The forum remains open for them.
The use of a computer is forbidden on the Sabbath.
Google "39 Melachot."
The prohibition of the melachah of burning or igniting a fire covers the use of electricity. The prohibition of the melachah of writing covers typing.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
There is no excuse for a Jewish person not to Keep the Sabbath. G-D said in the Torah that his commandments is not hard. As for a kind person whose theologial beliefs are questionable, he will tell you what you want to hear and keep youin darkness!
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I wonder...It doesn't seem to me that posting on the intenet is in violation of the Sabbath....anyone??
I suppose it depends on how you interpret things but I'm asking...anyone with an view please reply...I had never thought of an iternet forum as being a violation....however, it never occured to me before this.......
It is a violation of the Sabbath. Even if a Jewish person is not religious Hashem See's it as a violation because Hashem See's all the Jewish people as one. when you as a Jewish person commites a sin all of the Jewish people suffer for it.
and which religion is this you are following?
I am Noahide. And I know for a fact that G-D See's the Jewish people as one as [HE] is one.
Are you a Torah scholar too that you can say such things?
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
AMEN!!! So wise!
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
There is no excuse for a Jewish person not to Keep the Sabbath. G-D said in the Torah that his commandments is not hard. As for a kind person whose theologial beliefs are questionable, he will tell you what you want to hear and keep youin darkness!
You're wrong...there are plenty of reasons for a Jew to not keep Shabbat...for one thing, to SAVE A LIFE!!!! I advise you, Rivera, to take some talmudic and Torah classes before you continue bible thumping us.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
There is no excuse for a Jewish person not to Keep the Sabbath. G-D said in the Torah that his commandments is not hard. As for a kind person whose theologial beliefs are questionable, he will tell you what you want to hear and keep youin darkness!
You're wrong...there are plenty of reasons for a Jew to not keep Shabbat...for one thing, to SAVE A LIFE!!!! I advise you, Rivera, to take some talmudic and Torah classes before you continue bible thumping us.
going on a forum on Shabb-t isnt saving a life. Its bad enough that people sin, but to sin and cause others to sin (partly by showing that breaking Shabb-t isnt much for you) is just disgusting (not directed for any individual but a public writing to all). Even though their are many gentile posters, I belive that JTF forum should close down on Shabb-t and Jewish holidays.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
There is no excuse for a Jewish person not to Keep the Sabbath. G-D said in the Torah that his commandments is not hard. As for a kind person whose theologial beliefs are questionable, he will tell you what you want to hear and keep youin darkness!
You're wrong...there are plenty of reasons for a Jew to not keep Shabbat...for one thing, to SAVE A LIFE!!!! I advise you, Rivera, to take some talmudic and Torah classes before you continue bible thumping us.
I think Rivera is right strictly speaking. I'm not sure about the entire Jewish people suffering for the failure to follow the laws by a fellow Jew though. Going online on shabbat definitely isn't saving any lives, so I think he is correct when he says that there is no excuse not to keep the Sabbath in this situation.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
There is no excuse for a Jewish person not to Keep the Sabbath. G-D said in the Torah that his commandments is not hard. As for a kind person whose theologial beliefs are questionable, he will tell you what you want to hear and keep youin darkness!
You're wrong...there are plenty of reasons for a Jew to not keep Shabbat...for one thing, to SAVE A LIFE!!!! I advise you, Rivera, to take some talmudic and Torah classes before you continue bible thumping us.
going on a forum on Shabb-t isnt saving a life. Its bad enough that people sin, but to sin and cause others to sin (partly by showing that breaking Shabb-t isnt much for you) is just disgusting (not directed for any individual but a public writing to all). Even though their are many gentile posters, I belive that JTF forum should close down on Shabb-t and Jewish holidays.
So are you saying that a person who doesn't follow shabbat cannot even say that they don't follow shabbat? Or are you saying that they should not do so in a defiant and arrogant way?
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
There is no excuse for a Jewish person not to Keep the Sabbath. G-D said in the Torah that his commandments is not hard. As for a kind person whose theologial beliefs are questionable, he will tell you what you want to hear and keep youin darkness!
You're wrong...there are plenty of reasons for a Jew to not keep Shabbat...for one thing, to SAVE A LIFE!!!! I advise you, Rivera, to take some talmudic and Torah classes before you continue bible thumping us.
going on a forum on Shabb-t isnt saving a life. Its bad enough that people sin, but to sin and cause others to sin (partly by showing that breaking Shabb-t isnt much for you) is just disgusting (not directed for any individual but a public writing to all). Even though their are many gentile posters, I belive that JTF forum should close down on Shabb-t and Jewish holidays.
yes my friend, even though most of the people on this fourm are gentile we the gentile look to the Jewish people as examples. You are to be a light unto the nations.
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To save a life is really THE ONLY time one is obligated to violate the Sabbath. As far as the forum being closed for holidays, that's a fine idea in and of itself, but the majority of our posters are NOT Jewish. We have a shabbos goy who can run things Tzvi.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
There is no excuse for a Jewish person not to Keep the Sabbath. G-D said in the Torah that his commandments is not hard. As for a kind person whose theologial beliefs are questionable, he will tell you what you want to hear and keep youin darkness!
You're wrong...there are plenty of reasons for a Jew to not keep Shabbat...for one thing, to SAVE A LIFE!!!! I advise you, Rivera, to take some talmudic and Torah classes before you continue bible thumping us.
going on a forum on Shabb-t isnt saving a life. Its bad enough that people sin, but to sin and cause others to sin (partly by showing that breaking Shabb-t isnt much for you) is just disgusting (not directed for any individual but a public writing to all). Even though their are many gentile posters, I belive that JTF forum should close down on Shabb-t and Jewish holidays.
I'm personally not Shomer Shabbat and respect those who are. If Chaim recommends that the forum be shut down on those days, I would personally support it.
and yes, going on a forum on shabbat isn't saving a life. True.
But you can't make a Jew follow Shabbat the way you see fit as correct...Forcing Judaism down someone's throat is a really bad move...I recommend, from one Jew to another, don't do it...you're gonna get a secular uphieval and further divide the jewish people (unfortunately).
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To save a life is really THE ONLY time one is obligated to violate the Sabbath. As far as the forum being closed for holidays, that's a fine idea in and of itself, but the majority of our posters are NOT Jewish. We have a shabbos goy who can run things Tzvi.
But the owners of this fourm are Jewish so for that reason alone you should close it down for the sabbath. also the Jewish members who are using this site on the Sabbath well be protected by you if the site is closed.
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Noahides are not permitted to observe the Sabbath,the forum should remain open to Noahides,as many of us can still do great good for the Movement if the Forum is still "up",as long as there is a Gentile Mod to over see things, whilst observent jews obey the mitzvah i cant see that as a problem.
P.S would defer this to LUBAB,just to be sure.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.
Amen!
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.
Amen!
It was G-D that said keep the sabbath holy. You are indirectly attacking G-D!
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A Jew making entries into this forum on the Jewish Sabbath is not saving a life by any stretch of the imagination, and is thus violating the laws of Sabbath by making comments on here on that day.
However, I suppose I have to once again bring up those two quotes I wrote before: There is no man so righteous that he never sins, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
None of us are perfect. The Torah was given to us precisely because we are deeply flawed human beings who need to strive for perfection. But until perfection happens, we do need to proceed with caution when criticizing the religious practices of others. All of us are sinners; who are, therefore, any of us to criticize other people's sins? Besides, how religious any of us are, is really a private matter between us as individuals, and G-d.
I feel completely differently about this when it comes to moral behavior, because that involves one human being harming his fellow human beings. In such cases, intervention is usually mandated, regardless of one's personal level of saintliness.
One more thing about this matter. As many have already pointed out, about half the people here are not even Jewish, and there is no mandate for gentiles to keep the sabbath. So even if one were to allow gentiles to write comments here on the sabbath, but forbid it to Jews, exactly how would this work? Would those in charge give each person here the fifth degree, shining a spotlight on them, probing them for the purity of their Jewish ancestry? Would those of us less religious Jews have to resort to pretending to be gentiles, just so that we can have the freedom to make comments on here on the Sabbath? Do any of us really want such a gestapo-type atmosphere here?
To repeat: There is no man so righteous that he never sins. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
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Of course going online during the Sabbath is a clear violation for Jews. Gentiles are not required to keep the sabbath.
On the other hand, as King Solomon said so many thousands of years ago, "There is no man (or woman) so righteous that he (or she) never sins." To quote JESUS here even though I reject him as anything other than a philosopher, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
While a Jew is required to keep the Sabbath, I do think that how we treat each other is far more important. G-d Himself has no needs, and cannot truly get hurt no matter how we treat Him, but our fellow human being is infinitely more vulnerable and can get hurt quite easily. Better to be around a kind person whose theological beliefs may be questionable, than around a very strong believer in G-d who acts like a jerk.
I agree. I wouldn't want to be around such a person either. The best approach is to show a fellow Jew that he's erred and point him in the right direction. All of course done with chesed and with true Ahavat Yisrael.
Amen!
It was G-D that said keep the sabbath holy. You are indirectly attacking G-D!
Rivera, you need to understand something: The Jew's worst enemy is himself and another Jew. It woudl be a terrible mistake to impose rules on Jews who are not ready to follow certain rules. Rather, the smart thing is to encourage him and point him in the right direction, albiet, allowing him to challenge the one teaching him.
If a Jewish authority were to force another Jew to follow the rules, he would be no better than a Christian or a Muslim or anyone esle who forces another to follow a certain rule. In fact, what may happen is that one religious Jew will fight another religious Jew over a technicality if extremism in that nature is pursued. Rivera, it's best that you stay out of making judgement...You will turn to dust like Saddam Hussein will turn to dust after your body is buried. Stop acting like you are better than thou...haughtiness is a terrible sin!
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A Jew making entries into this forum on the Jewish Sabbath is not saving a life by any stretch of the imagination, and is thus violating the laws of Sabbath by making comments on here on that day.
However, I suppose I have to once again bring up those two quotes I wrote before: There is no man so righteous that he never sins, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
None of us are perfect. The Torah was given to us precisely because we are deeply flawed human beings who need to strive for perfection. But until perfection happens, we do need to proceed with caution when criticizing the religious practices of others. All of us are sinners; who are, therefore, any of us to criticize other people's sins? Besides, how religious any of us are, is really a private matter between us as individuals, and G-d.
I feel completely differently about this when it comes to moral behavior, because that involves one human being harming his fellow human beings. In such cases, intervention is usually mandated, regardless of one's personal level of saintliness.
One more thing about this matter. As many have already pointed out, about half the people here are not even Jewish, and there is no mandate for gentiles to keep the sabbath. So even if one were to allow gentiles to write comments here on the sabbath, but forbid it to Jews, exactly how would this work? Would those in charge give each person here the fifth degree, shining a spotlight on them, probing them for the purity of their Jewish ancestry? Would those of us less religious Jews have to resort to pretending to be gentiles, just so that we can have the freedom to make comments on here on the Sabbath? Do any of us really want such a gestapo-type atmosphere here?
To repeat: There is no man so righteous that he never sins. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
I love this guy!
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To Danny, thank you, it feels wonderful to be appreciated. It is especially satisfying when my writing is complimented in that way, as my dream is to be a writer.
Danny also reminded me of an important Jewish principle, and that is that we Jews have to be very careful about who and under what circumstances we reprimand our fellow Jews. We are actually prohibited to reprimand a Jew for a behavior if we know the person will ignore us.
Some 2,000 years ago, some famous Talmudic sage commented that he does not know even one person who truly knows how to effectively reprimand his fellow Jew. If somebody back in the Talmudic days can say that, when clearly the spiritual level of the Jewish people was vastly greater than it is in our own day, then how much more true is this principle in our day and age.
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wow, i can actually learn a lot from you, Mr. jewishteddybear...good show.
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To Danny, thank you, it feels wonderful to be appreciated. It is especially satisfying when my writing is complimented in that way, as my dream is to be a writer.
Danny also reminded me of an important Jewish principle, and that is that we Jews have to be very careful about who and under what circumstances we reprimand our fellow Jews. We are actually prohibited to reprimand a Jew for a behavior if we know the person will ignore us.
Some 2,000 years ago, some famous Talmudic sage commented that he does not know even one person who truly knows how to effectively reprimand his fellow Jew. If somebody back in the Talmudic days can say that, when clearly the spiritual level of the Jewish people was vastly greater than it is in our own day, then how much more true is this principle in our day and age.
Well look at the Torah and see how the Toarh reprimands people for not keeping the Torah. It is much Harsher then I am!
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listen, rivera, let Gd do the punishment...i don't like your preaching...and you will only turn me and people like me away by saying the things that you say and the way you say it.
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Rivera, you are actually helping to make my point. The reason why Moses can be so harsh with the Jews in the Sinai desert is precisely because he knew exactly how to reprimand them in a way that would make them improve their behavior, plus the Jews in the desert were at an almost infinitely higher spiritual level then are we Jews of today, and therefore they were ready to here such criticisms. But if Moses were alive today, he would have to be extremely cautious about what he tells his fellow Jews. Indeed, any of the truly great Rabbis living today, are very careful about criticizing the religious practices of their fellow Jews. They choose to reprimand us in far more gentler ways, such as serving as good examples of how to truly live as a Jew, or inviting us to their homes for Sabbath meals, where we can again see how a Jew is really supposed to live.
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I just thought of something else about this issue. Moses himself, considered by many to be the greatest Jew to ever live and certainly the greatest of all prophets, the man who led the Jewish people out of Egyptian bondage, was himself not allowed to realize his ultimate dream of entering the land of Israel precisely because of the way he improperly carried out a reprimand...and not even against a Jew or even fellow human being, but against a rock! G-d had instructed him to talk to a rock to bring forth much needed water to the thirsty Jews in the Sinai desert. Instead, Moses lost his temper, and hit the rock with his staff instead. It did elicit water because Moses was still a very great man, but the damage was done. Moses prayed to G-d 400 times to please let him into Israel, but G-d adamantly refused. Moses had reprimanded the rock incorrectly, and that was enough for Moses to meet his death in the Sinai desert.
If such a great man could face such a harsh punishment for how he talks to a rock, just imagine how upset G-d is with those who talk to their fellow Jew in a similarly harsh manner.
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I just thought of something else about this issue. Moses himself, considered by many to be the greatest Jew to ever live and certainly the greatest of all prophets, the man who led the Jewish people out of Egyptian bondage, was himself not allowed to realize his ultimate dream of entering the land of Israel precisely because of the way he improperly carried out a reprimand...and not even against a Jew or even fellow human being, but against a rock! G-d had instructed him to talk to a rock to bring forth much needed water to the thirsty Jews in the Sinai desert. Instead, Moses lost his temper, and hit the rock with his staff instead. It did elicit water because Moses was still a very great man, but the damage was done. Moses prayed to G-d 400 times to please let him into Israel, but G-d adamantly refused. Moses had reprimanded the rock incorrectly, and that was enough for Moses to meet his death in the Sinai desert.
If such a great man could face such a harsh punishment for how he talks to a rock, just imagine how upset G-d is with those who talk to their fellow Jew in a similarly harsh manner.
Fantastic point.
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Nice try, but that's not the reason why he sinned, G-d doesn't care about a stupid rock. The reason is in some level he failed to sanctify G-d's name in public for G-d told him to speak to the rock and have water issue forth which shows greater power from G-d to make miracles then by hitting the rock.
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But what you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive. You are right, that Moses failed to optimize an opportunity for the greater glory of G-d, but he also displayed a very misplaced reprimand.
In fact, another angle to all this, is that by hitting the rock instead of talking to it as he had been instructed to by G-d, that he showed that he had too much of a temper to deal with the imperfect Jews, who were guaranteed to be even more flawed once they entered the land of Israel.
Moses was on such a high spiritual level, that he simply could not understand how anybody could sin the way the Jews were doing. Joshua proved to be just the leader they needed to take over, because Joshua was on a far lower spiritual level than was Moses, which helped Joshua understand the average Jew a whole lot better.
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But what you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive. You are right, that Moses failed to optimize an opportunity for the greater glory of G-d, but he also displayed a very misplaced reprimand.
In fact, another angle to all this, is that by hitting the rock instead of talking to it as he had been instructed to by G-d, that he showed that he had too much of a temper to deal with the imperfect Jews, who were guaranteed to be even more flawed once they entered the land of Israel.
Moses was on such a high spiritual level, that he simply could not understand how anybody could sin the way the Jews were doing. Joshua proved to be just the leader they needed to take over, because Joshua was on a far lower spiritual level than was Moses, which helped Joshua understand the average Jew a whole lot better.
OK so what is your opinion on how Chaim reprimands Jewish people? he use's the word KiKi. and says much worser things.
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I do not know Chaim ben Pesach well at all, but my impression is that he reprimands the Jewish people as a whole, in the same way that the late great Rabbi Meir Kahane did. If that is the case, then my attitude is completely different. Jewish people as a whole do need to be straightened out from time to time.
Having said that, it still depends on what we are being reprimanded for. If anything, Rabbi Kahane was hard on us Jews not because we were not righteous enough for him, but perhaps for the very opposite: because we were acting TOO saintly, at the cost of Jewish lives. We Jews are a wonderfully gentle, non-violent, extremely civilized people, which works most of the time, but not when it is at the expense of marching like sheep to the islamofascist slaughterhouse.
I suspect that this is what Chaim ben Moshe is reprimanding us for as well. I am not aware of him faulting any particular Jew for not following the ritual laws close enough. He probably saves most of his reprimands for Jews who care more about world opinion, than about fighting for our own survival.
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I do not know Chaim ben Pesach well at all, but my impression is that he reprimands the Jewish people as a whole, in the same way that the late great Rabbi Meir Kahane did. If that is the case, then my attitude is completely different. Jewish people as a whole do need to be straightened out from time to time.
Having said that, it still depends on what we are being reprimanded for. If anything, Rabbi Kahane was hard on us Jews not because we were not righteous enough for him, but perhaps for the very opposite: because we were acting TOO saintly, at the cost of Jewish lives. We Jews are a wonderfully gentle, non-violent, extremely civilized people, which works most of the time, but not when it is at the expense of marching like sheep to the islamofascist slaughterhouse.
I suspect that this is what Chaim ben Moshe is reprimanding us for as well. I am not aware of him faulting any particular Jew for not following the ritual laws close enough. He probably saves most of his reprimands for Jews who care more about world opinion, than about fighting for our own survival.
WOW! what a double stander you have for Chaim and everyone esle. You just got Thur saying in your other post how careful we have to be in reprimanding someone. And if you listen to Chaim he pulls the rug from under your feet when he reprimands someone. If it is wrong for us it is also wrong for Chaim.
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I was wondering about this too. I must admit I do go online during the Sabbath. I only hope it's not a very severe violation.
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I was wondering about this too. I must admit I do go online during the Sabbath. I only hope it's not a very severe violation.
It is. But you can make a new start this year and repent.
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I was wondering about this too. I must admit I do go online during the Sabbath. I only hope it's not a very severe violation.
It is. But you can make a new start this year and repent.
that is right G-D is merciful and kind! and every day is a new begining to do things right.
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I tried to carefully explain why Chaim ben Pesach's type of reprimand is different than the one I am opposing here. I do not know how to explain myself any more clearly, so all I can suggest at this point is to re-read what I have already said.
As far as whether or not keeping Sabbath is one of the worst things to violate, the answer like the answer to just about any such question is, Yes and No.
Keeping the Sabbath is considered one of the signature practices of the Torah observant Jew. In fact, it is one of the three ways that Jews in the modern world determine if their fellow Jew can accurately be called an Observant, Torah Jew. (the other two ways are eating kosher, and following the laws of family purity). A Jew is not even permitted to eat at the home of somebody who may keep kosher perfectly, yet does not keep the laws of the Sabbath.
On the other hand, I have to return what I said earlier, and that is that how we treat one another is far more important than any ritual laws we might follow. A Jew who drives on the Sabbath, or goes online on the Sabbath, but is a kind, sensitive human being, is a Jew far more worthy of our admiration than is a Sabbath observant Jew who does not even behave with minimal moral decency.
Also, there is an expression that says that our spirituality is not where we are on the spiritual ladder, but whether we are moving up or down on that ladder. A Jew with no Jewish background whatsoever, who decides to drive a car half way, and walk the rest of the way, to the synagogue on the Sabbath, may be committing a much loftier act than his fellow Jew who walks the entire way to the synagogue. It all depends on the spiritual effort one makes. As it says in the Chapters (Ethics) of the Fathers, "According to the spiritual effort, is the heavenly reward."
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I tried to carefully explain why Chaim ben Pesach's type of reprimand is different than the one I am opposing here. I do not know how to explain myself any more clearly, so all I can suggest at this point is to re-read what I have already said.
As far as whether or not keeping Sabbath is one of the worst things to violate, the answer like the answer to just about any such question is, Yes and No.
Keeping the Sabbath is considered one of the signature practices of the Torah observant Jew. In fact, it is one of the three ways that Jews in the modern world determine if their fellow Jew can accurately be called an Observant, Torah Jew. (the other two ways are eating kosher, and following the laws of family purity). A Jew is not even permitted to eat at the home of somebody who may keep kosher perfectly, yet does not keep the laws of the Sabbath.
On the other hand, I have to return what I said earlier, and that is that how we treat one another is far more important than any ritual laws we might follow. A Jew who drives on the Sabbath, or goes online on the Sabbath, but is a kind, sensitive human being, is a Jew far more worthy of our admiration than is a Sabbath observant Jew who does not even behave with minimal moral decency.
Also, there is an expression that says that our spirituality is not where we are on the spiritual ladder, but whether we are moving up or down on that ladder. A Jew with no Jewish background whatsoever, who decides to drive a car half way, and walk the rest of the way, to the synagogue on the Sabbath, may be committing a much loftier act than his fellow Jew who walks the entire way to the synagogue. It all depends on the spiritual effort one makes. As it says in the Chapters (Ethics) of the Fathers, "According to the spiritual effort, is the heavenly reward."
You said Chaim reprimand is different then the one you are opposing here .Chaim calls Jewish people kike so in your opinion is that good or bad? because the Nazi groups today also call Jewish people by that name.
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I have never heard Chaim ben Pesach call any Jew Kike and cannot even imagine him doing such a thing. Of course I am against anybody calling Jews by such a disparaging name, yet I would have to see the context in which he said it, before I judge his words.
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I have never heard Chaim ben Pesach call any Jew Kike and cannot even imagine him doing such a thing. Of course I am against anybody calling Jews by such a disparaging name, yet I would have to see the context in which he said it, before I judge his words.
there is no good context for calling a fellow jew KiKe.
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Chaim calls self-hating Jews kikes and I agree with him on it.
NO JEW RIGHT OR WRONG IS A KIKE! YOU SHOULD B A SHAME OF YOUR SELFS
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I have to agree with Rivera on this one. I do not want to bad-mouth any Jew in here, but I do oppose calling any Jew a Kike for any reason at all, just as I oppose calling any Black the N word, no matter how I feel about the particular Black.
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I have to agree with Rivera on this one. I do not want to bad-mouth any Jew in here, but I do oppose calling any Jew a Kike for any reason at all, just as I oppose calling any Black the N word, no matter how I feel about the particular Black.
THANK YOU!
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I just thought of something else about this issue. Moses himself, considered by many to be the greatest Jew to ever live and certainly the greatest of all prophets, the man who led the Jewish people out of Egyptian bondage, was himself not allowed to realize his ultimate dream of entering the land of Israel precisely because of the way he improperly carried out a reprimand...and not even against a Jew or even fellow human being, but against a rock! G-d had instructed him to talk to a rock to bring forth much needed water to the thirsty Jews in the Sinai desert. Instead, Moses lost his temper, and hit the rock with his staff instead. It did elicit water because Moses was still a very great man, but the damage was done. Moses prayed to G-d 400 times to please let him into Israel, but G-d adamantly refused. Moses had reprimanded the rock incorrectly, and that was enough for Moses to meet his death in the Sinai desert.
If such a great man could face such a harsh punishment for how he talks to a rock, just imagine how upset G-d is with those who talk to their fellow Jew in a similarly harsh manner.
and a part of today's Torah portion mind you :)
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But what you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive. You are right, that Moses failed to optimize an opportunity for the greater glory of G-d, but he also displayed a very misplaced reprimand.
In fact, another angle to all this, is that by hitting the rock instead of talking to it as he had been instructed to by G-d, that he showed that he had too much of a temper to deal with the imperfect Jews, who were guaranteed to be even more flawed once they entered the land of Israel.
Moses was on such a high spiritual level, that he simply could not understand how anybody could sin the way the Jews were doing. Joshua proved to be just the leader they needed to take over, because Joshua was on a far lower spiritual level than was Moses, which helped Joshua understand the average Jew a whole lot better.
OK so what is your opinion on how Chaim reprimands Jewish people? he use's the word KiKi. and says much worser things.
Chaim has his way of approaching people and repreminding them. I personally don't agree with it compeletely, but I know where he's coming from...AND I also know he does it out of so much love for the Jewish people and righteous people...so much love that, like a good father, punishes his child when he knowingly rebels.
On that note, I think that Chaim and Chaim alone should act this way and not anyone else.
Now, on another angle, I used to think that chaim's way of communicating to left wing Jews likened to Moses's way of hitting the rock rather than talking to it and might be Chaim's downfall of ever making it to the level he wants to be...but i'm not a prophet...so my speculation there is moot.
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I do not know Chaim ben Pesach well at all, but my impression is that he reprimands the Jewish people as a whole, in the same way that the late great Rabbi Meir Kahane did. If that is the case, then my attitude is completely different. Jewish people as a whole do need to be straightened out from time to time.
Having said that, it still depends on what we are being reprimanded for. If anything, Rabbi Kahane was hard on us Jews not because we were not righteous enough for him, but perhaps for the very opposite: because we were acting TOO saintly, at the cost of Jewish lives. We Jews are a wonderfully gentle, non-violent, extremely civilized people, which works most of the time, but not when it is at the expense of marching like sheep to the islamofascist slaughterhouse.
I suspect that this is what Chaim ben Moshe is reprimanding us for as well. I am not aware of him faulting any particular Jew for not following the ritual laws close enough. He probably saves most of his reprimands for Jews who care more about world opinion, than about fighting for our own survival.
WOW! what a double stander you have for Chaim and everyone esle. You just got Thur saying in your other post how careful we have to be in reprimanding someone. And if you listen to Chaim he pulls the rug from under your feet when he reprimands someone. If it is wrong for us it is also wrong for Chaim.
Rivera, i have also been trying to figure this out, but the only answer I can come up with in regards to Chaim's personality is that this is the way he does it. However, whenever I listen to him carefully on the ask jtf's program, he has no desire in FORCING Jews to become more religious because he understands that not all Jews are ready for that move being part of a secular world..but that slowly but sure through education and subtle changes to the law that Jews will eventually go towards becoming religious. Therefore, he isn't like Moses in hitting rock..that in fact, Chaim is much more soft spoken than we even realize....that his bark is worse than is bite (sort of...)
It also leads me think about other things I'm afraid to mention on this forum about Chaim...his mental status. I dont' want to say anything that he might feel embarrassed about, but I tend to notice he repeats himself all the time and I can't seem to understand why he does that...like OCD...
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I have never heard Chaim ben Pesach call any Jew Kike and cannot even imagine him doing such a thing. Of course I am against anybody calling Jews by such a disparaging name, yet I would have to see the context in which he said it, before I judge his words.
kyke..heh..it's just a name...
I personally prefer to call left wing Jews, Jews with good intentions, but going about it the wrong way.
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Calling a Jew a Kike, or a Black the N word, is simply wrong, period. There is no excuse for it.
That is amazing that this week's Torah portion talks about the very subject that I brought up, how Moses was not let into the land of Israel because he hit the rock instead of talking to it.
As it so happens, I once wrote a letter to Rabbi Kahane, to tell him that while I agreed with his essential message, that it might be more universally accepted if he presented it in a softer manner. He wrote back rejecting what I said, saying that he has his way of doing things that he feels is the right thing to do.
Today I was at a Rabbi's house where I faced a similar situation. The Rabbi had several young women over as guests; I was his only male guest. Lucky me, right? ;D
Well, anyway, at one point, one of the young women, although she claimed to be an even more politically conservative person than I was, was also pro-abortion, and pro-euthanasia. In other words, she supported the right of mothers to get doctors to murder their helpless unborn babies, and the right of families to kill of the elderly in their family, if that elderly person is just too inconvenient for them to take care of. She likewise supported the taking of the life of Terri Schiavo.
Well, I was completely shocked and outraged that a Jewish woman who is supposedly religious (although she is new at it), would have such anti-life, and therefore anti-Torah values. But I was also a guest at the house, and besides, this woman had treated me with the utmost respect, so I really had to use all my self-control to simply not blow up at her and tell her what a horrible lack of values she has, how she is embracing death the way the moslems do and so on. In other words, I had to find some soft way to respond to her, that did not hurt her feelings, because a harsher approach would have just made her more defensive.
Since it was just a Shabbat table, and not some classroom or debating society, the issue was not really settled at all, but maybe by her seeing my shocked reaction, a part of her might realize that her views are not exactly kosher.
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listen, everyone has a certain way of reacting to certain things. Maybe the smartest thing to do with someone that you disagree with is not to show disagreement, but to keep asking questions until they stump themselves with their beliefs...but you have to be really smart to be able to do that :)
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those who cannot debate,defame...some one important said that!
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I thought about this a few times myself. You can easily tell who's shomer shabbos and who's not by seeing who posts on here during the sabbath :)
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Re: "...I thought about this a few times myself. You can easily tell who's shomer shabbos and who's not by seeing who posts on here during the sabbath..."
Not necessarily...
Posts could emanate from anywhere on the planet.
The time in Europe is not the same as the time in U.S.A., which is not the same as the time in Eretz Yisrael, which has a different time zone than Taiwan, R.O.C....!
Countries follow different time zones from each other, and a single country may contain several different time zones!
Not to mention the fact that in cyberspace someone who keys in "I am a Jew / non-Jew / Catholic / Serb / Asian / male / female / etc...." could be any and/or none of the above.
signed,
Jerome "Hacker" Jones, Jr.
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Re: "...I thought about this a few times myself. You can easily tell who's shomer shabbos and who's not by seeing who posts on here during the sabbath..."
Not necessarily...
Posts could emanate from anywhere on the planet.
The time in Europe is not the same as the time in U.S.A., which is not the same as the time in Eretz Yisrael, which has a different time zone than Taiwan, R.O.C....!
Countries follow different time zones from each other, and a single country may contain several different time zones!
Not to mention the fact that in cyberspace someone who keys in "I am a Jew / non-Jew / Catholic / Serb / Asian / male / female / etc...." could be any and/or none of the above.
signed,
Jerome "Hacker" Jones, Jr.
That's an excellent point. But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos.
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Re: "...But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos..."
One day I complained to a brilliant Lubavitcher Rabbi about fellow Jews who had no interest in Torah and preferred to live as non-Jews.
He told me that I should be concerned only with my own spiritual condition.
A seemingly abrupt answer, but the correct answer.
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Re: "...But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos..."
One day I complained to a brilliant Lubavitcher Rabbi about fellow Jews who had no interest in Torah and preferred to live as non-Jews.
He told me that I should be concerned only with my own spiritual condition.
A seemingly abrupt answer, but the correct answer.
That is interesting because lubavitcher is not concern with there own spiritual condition. they go around trying to bring Jewish people back to Judaism. you did the right to show concern for your brother!
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Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?
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Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?
You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?
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Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?
You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?
yes, maybe worse (in some instances), either way for both the Torah says that they deserve death.
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dexter- Listin to
Seminar - December 20, 2006 - The Sabbat - Hebrew
(its in Hebrew- but its about the Shabb-t)
Seminar - January 11, 2006 - The Shabbat (this one is in english)
http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp
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Re: "...But for anyone who lives in the United States and is Jewish and we see that person posting in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, I think it's fair to conclude that that person is not shomer shabbos..."
One day I complained to a brilliant Lubavitcher Rabbi about fellow Jews who had no interest in Torah and preferred to live as non-Jews.
He told me that I should be concerned only with my own spiritual condition.
A seemingly abrupt answer, but the correct answer.
Shouldn't that be the case for ourselves in general. Before pointing out the rest of the worlds faults, we should deal with our own.
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By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel! ;)
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By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel! ;)
You cant do a mitzva from an avera.
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By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel! ;)
You cant do a mitzva from an avera.
If I knew what that meant I might react. I am a Christian, you see.
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By going on the forum you may be indirectly saving millions of Jewish lives by helping Chaim get to Israel! ;)
You cant do a mitzva from an avera.
If I knew what that meant I might react. I am a Christian, you see.
You cant do something you see as good coming from something bad. Ex- You cant steal in order to give charity.( like robinhood).
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http://dailyhalacha.com/ - under September 16 2007
Discussing groups of sinners who forfeit their share in the World to Come
In Halacha 9 (listen to audio for precise citation), the Rambam proceeds to define the next category of sinners, the "Meshumadim" ("defectors"). He writes that this term refers to one of the following types of sinners:
1) A person who intentionally, habitually and publicly rejects one of the 613 commandments. Even if a person faithfully observes the other 612 Misvot, if he makes a point of publicly transgressing one Misva on a regular basis, such as if he intentionally wears Shaatnez (a garment woven with wool and linen) or cuts his sideburns, he is deemed a "Meshumad."
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Any given ideological/philosophical/religious system that would consider breaking Sabbath laws to be as bad or even worse than murder, is not the kind of system I would have any interest in following. A G-d who has such standards, is likewise not the kind of G-d I would have respect enough to worship.
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Judaism isnt a man made religion, and not everthing is explained by the simple limited "logic" that we all know of. Anyway the reason why we think that murder is worse then breaking the Shabb-t for example is becuase society has taught us that way. Ever since we were small we were told that killing is bad, etc. etc. etc. So we have it in our mental system that its a bad thing and we should refrain from doing it, so in the same way Jews should read and understand (threw education) that doing bad things like breaking Shabb-t is a very big sin to do and they should not do it.
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Murder is the worst crime one can commit, regardless of what society teaches us. What do you think this whole war against islamofascism is all about? You can be sure that every time that they commit one of their horrendously evil acts of murder, that they think they are doing G-d's Will, ridding the world of evil people.
Besides, I can make a case for Judaism NOT equating violating the Sabbath with murdering one's fellow human being. If John Smith the gentile approches David Cohen the Jew, telling Mr. Cohen that he (Mr Smith) will murder him if he does not drive on the Sabbath while eating a ham sandwich, Mr. Cohen is actually mandated according to Jewish law to get right in that car and start munching away at that chopped-up pig. But if that same John Smith tells David Cohen to go kill Juan Hernandez or else Mr Smith will kill Mr Cohen, then Mr Cohen is obligated by Jewish law to let himself be killed.
It goes even further than this. Even if a person's life is in danger not from another human being but because of one's health, and it is the Sabbath, one is obligated according to Jewish law to get in that ambulance and rush to the hospital immediately, to save his life.
Clearly, then, the Jewish G-d DOES consider human life more sacred than following the laws of the Sabbath.
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Im not writing to you of my opinion, I only state the Halacha and what is written and said by the Torah and Hachamim, you can either accept it or not, nobodys justifying murder so lets not justify any other sin. It would be wise to accept the wrongdoing (sin) and repent instead of making all sorts of excuses.
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What I just stated is also Jewish law. The fact of the matter is, life is more sacred than the Jewish Sabbath, not only according to logic and common sense, but according to Jewish law.
It would be wise for you to accept yourown wrongdoing (sin) and repent instead of making all sorts of excuses.
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and what did I do wronge again? I dont understand what you are saying please explain.
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Somehow I suspected you are the one who used to call yourself raiseYourFist
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Somehow I suspected you are the one who used to call yourself raiseYourFist
nop sorry. I used the same screname for the longest time. I have been one of the earliest members of this forum dating back to the time that Yakov told me that hes putting together a JTF forum and hes inviting me to join. Anyway Im not criticizing you or anyone just to put people down, but what Im writing is important in order for the Jews here to recognize their mistakes by seeing the great damage of breaking Shabb-t and G-d willing change.
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Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?
You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?
yes, maybe worse (in some instances), either way for both the Torah says that they deserve death.
That's really nuts! I would rather violate every sabbath of my life by lighting a fire purposely than to kill an innocent person cold bloodedly!
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Definitely. As I said before, I would never worship a G-d who would equate the value of Sabbath with that of a human life.
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Murder is the worst crime one can commit, regardless of what society teaches us. What do you think this whole war against islamofascism is all about? You can be sure that every time that they commit one of their horrendously evil acts of murder, that they think they are doing G-d's Will, ridding the world of evil people.
Besides, I can make a case for Judaism NOT equating violating the Sabbath with murdering one's fellow human being. If John Smith the gentile approches David Cohen the Jew, telling Mr. Cohen that he (Mr Smith) will murder him if he does not drive on the Sabbath while eating a ham sandwich, Mr. Cohen is actually mandated according to Jewish law to get right in that car and start munching away at that chopped-up pig. But if that same John Smith tells David Cohen to go kill Juan Hernandez or else Mr Smith will kill Mr Cohen, then Mr Cohen is obligated by Jewish law to let himself be killed.
It goes even further than this. Even if a person's life is in danger not from another human being but because of one's health, and it is the Sabbath, one is obligated according to Jewish law to get in that ambulance and rush to the hospital immediately, to save his life.
Clearly, then, the Jewish G-d DOES consider human life more sacred than following the laws of the Sabbath.
There are two other things also that one should take death for besides beign forced to kill someone: 1. Bowing down to idols; 2. committing immoral sexual acts.
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http://www.israel613.com/ - search for the Shabb-t.
1) "To fear the L-rd your G-d all your days"- This refers to Shabbat and festivals (Yevamoth 93).
2) "Fires are common only where there is desecration of the Shabbat" (Shabbat 119b).
2 THE HOLINESS OF SHABBAT
3) "Jerusalem was destroyed only because the Shabbat was desecrated" therein (ibid.).
4) When Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai would see his mother talking too much on Shabbat, he would say to her, "Mother, today is Shabbat (Yerushalmi Shabbat 15:3)."
IDOLATRY AND DESECRATION OF SHABBAT HAVE THE SAME GRAVITY
5) "We may accept sacrifices from Jewish sinners so that they will repent, except from an apostate who offers wine as a libation to idols, or a flagrant violator of the Shabbat. From here we deduce that idolatry and desecration of the Shabbat are of equal gravity" (Eruvin 69b).
6) "I would think that honoring one's father and mother would supersede the Shabbat. Scripture states, therefore: Each man shall fear his mother and father, and you shall observe my Shabbatot" (Yevamoth 5b).
7) "One who casts excessive fear upon the members of his household, will eventually desecrate the Shabbat" (Gittin 6b).
8) "Said Haman, "if you wish to uproot them, uproot the Shabbat and curtail it, afterwards you will destroy them" (Esther Rabbah 7).
9) "Tur Shimon was destroyed because they would play ball on Shabbat" (Eichah Rabbah 2:3).
10) "Desecration of Shabbat is one of three sins for which their perpetrators are blamed for committing all sins." (Midrash Tannaim, Deut. 5).
11) "Whoever desecrates Shabbat, although he possesses Torah and good deeds, has no share in the World to Come" (Avoth d'Rabbi Nathan, ch. 26).
IT IS CONSIDERED AS VIOLATING ALL OF THE TORAH
12) "If you desecrated the Shabbat, I (G-d) consider it as though you desecrated all the commandments" (Shemoth Rabbah 25)
13) "Whoever desecrates the Shabbat, testifies before He Who spoke and the world came into existence, that He did not create His world in six days and rest on the seventh" (Mechilta Yitro)
14) "Any Jew who did not observe Shabbat in this world, has no rest to eternity. One official takes his body and brings it into Gehinnom in the presence of the wicked, where his soul has no rest in the fires of Hell. When Shabbat is over, that official returns his body to its place, and each is tortured individually" (Midrash quoted by Maavar Yabbok, Sifthei Renanoth 39).
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Danny, that is true according to Torah law. Personally, though, if somebody said he would murder me unless I bowed down to his stupid idol, I would immediately bow and kiss that idol as if my life depended on it...and it would. And if somebody came up to me and said he would murder me unless I go commit adultery, I guess it would depend on how hot and sexy the married woman in question is. ;)
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Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize.
Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).
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I get the feeling that what Tzvi is really upset about is his own honor rather than any given interpretation of Torah law. He is also showing extreme intolerance toward any view that is not his own. I bet he is a liberal.
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I bet he is a liberal.
;D
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Danny, that is true according to Torah law. Personally, though, if somebody said he would murder me unless I bowed down to his stupid idol, I would immediately bow and kiss that idol as if my life depended on it...and it would. And if somebody came up to me and said he would murder me unless I go commit adultery, I guess it would depend on how hot and sexy the married woman in question is. ;)
Here i disagree with you. If someone said, "reject your god or else I'll kill you," the Jewish way to do it is to die for Gd's Name.
Comitting aldutery? well, I was thinking more like a scenario of, "I'll kill you unless you have sex with your mother, sister, father, brother etc..." or "with that animal (dog, cat, etc)... Adultery? have to ask a rabbi about that scenario...such as, "i'll kill you unless you have sex with that married woman who's husband I have tied up and forced to watch you do it..." I think even especially that situation, you should take death, since comitting adultery in that situation is forcing you to rape another person...
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http://dailyhalacha.com/ - under September 16 2007
Discussing groups of sinners who forfeit their share in the World to Come
In Halacha 9 (listen to audio for precise citation), the Rambam proceeds to define the next category of sinners, the "Meshumadim" ("defectors"). He writes that this term refers to one of the following types of sinners:
1) A person who intentionally, habitually and publicly rejects one of the 613 commandments. Even if a person faithfully observes the other 612 Misvot, if he makes a point of publicly transgressing one Misva on a regular basis, such as if he intentionally wears Shaatnez (a garment woven with wool and linen) or cuts his sideburns, he is deemed a "Meshumad."
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Please re-read what I said more carefully. I acknowledged that according to Jewish law, a Jew must give up his life, rather than engage in murder, idolatry or adultery.
But then I went on to say that I personally, would certainly not give up my life rather than bow down to an idol or have sex with another man's wife. I value my life way too much to do otherwise.
Again, this is just a personal decision. I am not necessarily advocating this approach for anybody else.
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Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize.
Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).
Hey Tzvi, i'm not sure if you were referring to my post or someone else's in regards to choosing to violate every sabbath rest of my life over killing an innocent human being. If you were upset by my post, I'm sorry that you are upset. However, I disagree even with the interpretations you gave me of some of these wise sages, bless their memories. Perhaps, I need to look into what they had to say with a learned rabbi on the subject just to have a clarification and perhaps a little arguement with him if he repeats exactly what you stated. At this point, I disagree compeletely with all my heart what you wrote stating that violating shabbat might in fact be worse than murder...that is soooo ridiculous and INSANE! Violating the sabbath certainly goes against Gd's law..but Gd is sooo powerful and endearing and merciful, that a little speck like me violating the sabbath is not as big a deal to Him. However, if i took the life of an innocent human being, I can never get forgiveness from that person because murder is a sin against Man/Human. Certainly, if I had the choice of doing one or the other, Gd forbid, I woudl choose to violate every sabbath for the sake of not committing murder of an innocent human being. I will NOT recant that post and you'll just have to remain upset at me for making that comment. In my heart, I think that, so far, I'm right.
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on the topic of Shabb-t someone ( Yakov) asked my about Shabb-t and why I write a dash, I also remember saying that Shabb-t is a Holy name, I forgot where I have learned it, but now I have came across it.- http://www.israel613.com/
SHABBAT IS THE NAME OF THE HOLY ONE BLESSED BE HE
23) "Shabbat is the Name of the Holy One, Blessed be He, as is explained in the holy Zohar, Shemoth 88. It is, therefore, prohibited to pronounce 'it' where we may not utter holy words of Torah, I know some very pious people who exercise caution not to mention the word Shabbat unnecessarily" (B'nei Yissochor, 1:1). 26) "It is stated in the book Ruach Chaim (by Rabbi Chaim Palaggi o.b.m.) ch. 84, that, according to Chesed L'Avraham, who maintains that, according to the Zohar, Shabbat may not be mentioned in an unclean place, one should rather say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat". Without a vow, I will take care to say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat" (Sedey Chemed).
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Please re-read what I said more carefully. I acknowledged that according to Jewish law, a Jew must give up his life, rather than engage in murder, idolatry or adultery.
But then I went on to say that I personally, would certainly not give up my life rather than bow down to an idol or have sex with another man's wife. I value my life way too much to do otherwise.
Again, this is just a personal decision. I am not necessarily advocating this approach for anybody else.
oops, didn't see the "personally"...I think that "personally" you would be making a mistake..but...then again...I speak about taking death..i might be a chicken to save my life..Thank Gd haven't been in that situation.
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on the topic of Shabb-t someone ( Yakov) asked my about Shabb-t and why I write a dash, I also remember saying that Shabb-t is a Holy name, I forgot where I have learned it, but now I have came across it.- http://www.israel613.com/
SHABBAT IS THE NAME OF THE HOLY ONE BLESSED BE HE
23) "Shabbat is the Name of the Holy One, Blessed be He, as is explained in the holy Zohar, Shemoth 88. It is, therefore, prohibited to pronounce 'it' where we may not utter holy words of Torah, I know some very pious people who exercise caution not to mention the word Shabbat unnecessarily" (B'nei Yissochor, 1:1). 26) "It is stated in the book Ruach Chaim (by Rabbi Chaim Palaggi o.b.m.) ch. 84, that, according to Chesed L'Avraham, who maintains that, according to the Zohar, Shabbat may not be mentioned in an unclean place, one should rather say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat". Without a vow, I will take care to say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat" (Sedey Chemed).
So, Wise men inspired by Gd decreed these things, bless their memories...I'm not a wise man..not yet. It may be decreed as you have quoted here...now it's up to me to ask why and to question and to understand.
but still, I'm not convinced by quotes by wise men that following shabbat is a more important mitzva than not killing someone innocent. I'm sorry Tzvi..i need a Rabbi to explain this to me in plain English language...or even an AMerican who is studying this in Yeshiva....
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There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.
To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life. The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments. G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing. It is all for our own sake. So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.
When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different. There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them. In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings.
In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.
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dont worry i dont take it personally, Im not arguing for the sake of arguing but pointing out the importance of keeping Shabb-t. you are right IF in the situation of killing someone or breaking Shabb-t you have to break Shabb-t, but ask yourself did you come to that situation this Shabb-t? if yes then the next Shabb-t? and every Shabb-t people come across that situation? about my comment I heard Rav Mizrahi (divineinformation.com ) say that a breaker Shabb-t in some instances is worse then a murderer, ex- even a murderer can be counted in a minyan, a Shabb-t desecrator cannot. ETC, ETC.
Okay lets say murder is worse (anyway im not arguing for murder), is it still okay to break Shabb-t and even more publically go on a forum, making and showing that an individual doesnt care about making big sins and does it publically with no shame? - also risking losing their share in the world to come and having (G-d forbid) NO PLACE IN THE WORLD TO COME? - tell me honestly is it worth it? Take it to heart brother.
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There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.
To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life. The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments. G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing. It is all for our own sake. So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.
When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different. There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them. In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings.
In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.
this arguments are what the wicked reformers have said. Fanaticism? give me 1 example that is "fanatic" of what I have posted, if you concider it fanatic then you concider the Talmud fanatic?
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tzvi is a wicked fanatic
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tzvi is a wicked fanatic
those who cant argue- defame.
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Most of what Tzvi posted is in accordance with Orthodox Judaism although he is too offensive to other posters at times including on this thread and therefore could set a better example of Judaism to the other members on this forum by being respectful and judging others favorably.
Violating the Sabbath is a grave sin for a Jew, however it is not worse then murder, murder is worse than violating the Sabbath for one is permitted to violate the Sabbath if one's life is in danger but one is forbidden from murdering someone if one's life is in danger. Thejewishteddybear's argument is not in accordance with Orthodox judaism since it is against the Bible. The Bible says that one who purposely violates the Sabbath (and as the Rabbis clarify being fully aware with warning and with witnesses) is liable to stoning therefore any argument that seems logical but is against the Bible is inherently not logical and you can easily find the fault in the argument you just presented. Although G-d himself does not need us to fulfill his commandments for his own benefit as he is eternal and does not need us, rather it is for our benefit to emulate G-d since G-d's glory is the ultimate reward, he requires us to do his will wholeheartedly without question. Just as one would follow a mortal King without question, certainly one should follow the One most high.
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tzvi defames
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tzvi defames
If I have needlesly offended someone- Im sorry, but I dont see how I have written something offensive- if I have please directly point it out (here or P.M.)
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tzvi is a wicked fanatic
All those who believe in the Torah rather then Western systems of (im)morality are considered fanatics, but remember that both Chaim and Rabbi Kahane zt'l would be in the same camp. As would I, though I am not equal to either of them.
The Torah, and Judaism says Hashem's word is absolute, even when we in our limited intellect cant understand the why, we are still required to fufill Hashem's Mitzvot. So while we may not understand why Hashem commands death for breaking Shabbat, that is really too bad.
Thank you Tzvi for defending the Torah in this argument.
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There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.
To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life. The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments. G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing. It is all for our own sake. So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.
When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different. There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them. In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings.
In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.
JTB, look at my ask jtf comment/question for tomorrow..I pretty much address these things but in a different way than I am expressing here to Tzvi and to a lesser extent, Rivera.
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When is the last time you heard of a Jew being stoned to death for violating the Sabbath? There is a good reason for why such a thing has not taken place for a very long time, and it has little to do with us not having the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. The Talmudic Rabbis put so many conditions on when a Jew can truly be stoned to death for violating the Sabbath, that it was rarely, if ever done.
The real reason why such a penalty for Sabbath violation is stated in the first place, is NOT so that people can go around killing people in the name of religion, but rather to set up a standard for how serious the violation of Sabbath is.
When I get into discussions about Jewish law, I am quite serious about representing our traditions accurately. Only when I specifically state otherwise, as I did in regard to the idolatry-adultery vs dying question, do I mean to represent my personal views rather than Torah views.
I 100% guarantee that any Rabbi worth his title, would absolutely oppose stoning ANY Jew to death who has violated the Sabbath. And, they would definitely agree with my assessment that human life is valued a whole lot more in Jewish law than is keeping the Sabbath.
Never forget that we are Jews, not moslems! There are people in here who seem awfully anxious to make Judaism sound as much like Islam as possible, which is pretty ironic for a website devoted in part to combating islamofascist terrorism.
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There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.
To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life. The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments. G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing. It is all for our own sake. So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.
When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different. There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them. In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings.
In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.
this arguments are what the wicked reformers have said. Fanaticism? give me 1 example that is "fanatic" of what I have posted, if you concider it fanatic then you concider the Talmud fanatic?
Tziv you are right! In Isaiah 56:6-7 it says. AND THE FOREIGNERS WHO JOIN THEMSELVES TO HASHEM TO SERVE HIM AND TO LOVE THE NAME OF HASHEM TO BECOME SERVANTS UNTO HIM, ALL WHO GUARD THE SABBATH AGAINST DESECRATION, AND GRASP MY COVENANT TIGHTLY- I WILL BRING THEM TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, AND I WILL GLADDEN THEM IN MY HOUSE OF PRAYER; THEIR ELEVATION OFFERINGS AND THEIR FEAST OFFERINGS WILL FIND FAVOR ON MY ALTAR, FOR MY HOUSE WILL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE PEOPLES.
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Yes, we are Jews not Muslims, but also not Americans, not Greeks, not Christians, not any other people, religion or cult. Since we are Jews we have to find our true identity and Laws we have to follow and keep them, and not make excuses for any of the laws, but ask G-d for forgiveness and work hard towards completing what G-d wants from us. Our identity doesnt come from not being musim, etc. etc. Our identity if our mission, laws and truth of G-d and what He wants us to do.
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dont worry i dont take it personally, Im not arguing for the sake of arguing but pointing out the importance of keeping Shabb-t. you are right IF in the situation of killing someone or breaking Shabb-t you have to break Shabb-t, but ask yourself did you come to that situation this Shabb-t? if yes then the next Shabb-t? and every Shabb-t people come across that situation? about my comment I heard Rav Mizrahi (divineinformation.com ) say that a breaker Shabb-t in some instances is worse then a murderer, ex- even a murderer can be counted in a minyan, a Shabb-t desecrator cannot. ETC, ETC.
Okay lets say murder is worse (anyway im not arguing for murder), is it still okay to break Shabb-t and even more publically go on a forum, making and showing that an individual doesnt care about making big sins and does it publically with no shame? - also risking losing their share in the world to come and having (G-d forbid) NO PLACE IN THE WORLD TO COME? - tell me honestly is it worth it? Take it to heart brother.
Tzvi, don't worry, you're still my brother and I still love you even when i disagree wtih you because I know we disagree on certain things for the sake of loving eachother as a brother should.. :)
I will say this on a separate note not compairing murdering...I do think it is wrong to purposely and be rebellous against Shabbat as one might proclaim, "oh, what is Gd goign to do to me know, I'm breaking Sabbath..ha ha ha ha." I agree that anyone who chooses to break a commandment ON PURPOSE in order to be rebellious is committing a grave sin even if he/she is "following 612 other commandments." It's wrong to do these things on purpose.
Now, on rules made by wise men inspired by Gd, blessed be their memories, and the fences built around the Torah as described in Mishna, Talmud etc...Here is where I often pause and balk at certain rules that are man made and fences and rules which I dont' follow because i wasn't raised with them and not about to follow jsut because someone said so no matter how wise he was. I am, perhaps, rebelling against my father or teacher in this situation. But am i rebelling because I do not honor him/them? Or is it because I need to go and learn Torah in a different way than he/they did? The Torah rules don't change, but the world does change. And if my goal is to learn Torah differently from my father albiet with his insipiration, according to Halakha, he shouldn't stop me.
therefore, if i'm rebelling against these wise men an do the opposite to prove a point, I am dishonoring my against my fathers. However, if I'm questioning and disagreeing and finding answers so that I can be as inspired as they were in their day, then I can't be diong something wrong.
(I know it's a stretch...but eh, I'm working on it...at this point, these wise men inspired by Gd blessed be their memories, talked about Torah in such a way that "it was beautiful to my brain as classical music is beautiful to our ears and certain pieces of art are pleasing to our eyes.")
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tzvi is a wicked fanatic
JTB, Tzvi says these things because he loves all Jews too much. and for that, I love him too...it's not nice to put him down like that.
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G-d definitely does not want us Jews to run around murdering other Jews, particularly not in G-d's name. To suggest otherwise is to be about as antithetical to what Judaism is all about as one can be.
The way to get a Jew to keep the Sabbath is by inviting him to your home for a nice Sabbath meal, where he can enjoy the delicious kosher food, sing beautiful Sabbath songs, witness wholesome religious Jewish families, and hear words of Torah from people seated around the Sabbath table.
Conversely, the way to turn a Jew into a self-hating Jewish antisemite, is to tell him that you will murder him if he dares violate any of the Sabbath laws.
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Anyone who doesnt understand right now the importance of Shabb-t, I cant personally blame you, but its my job (and every other Jews) to point out to you the importance and the seriousness of the Mitzvot. I highly recomend everyone including myself to learn more Torah and take it to heart.
if you need some good websites heres a few (need more or something specific pm me please).
http://www.israel613.com/
divininformation.com
Kolyakov.org
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It is tzvi who is putting down basically all Jews, since there is no Jew so righteous that he never sins. Judaism is about valuing and enhancing life, not about using it as excuse to murder one's fellow Jews. Again, we are Jews, not moslems.
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It is tzvi who is putting down basically all Jews, since there is no Jew so righteous that he never sins. Judaism is about valuing and enhancing life, not about using it as excuse to murder one's fellow Jews. Again, we are Jews, not moslems.
Where did you get the notion that I advocated murder ???
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Your ears should hear what your mouth is saying.
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Your ears should hear what your mouth is saying.
that means you have no quote?
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Could it be that tzvi is starting to wake up and realize that all this time he has been advocating death for just about every Jew still alive?
nahhh....he is just looking for another means by which he can use his misunderstanding of Judaism to give himself a false sense of superiority over his fellow human beings.
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Could it be that tzvi is starting to wake up and realize that all this time he has been advocating death for just about every Jew still alive?
nahhh....he is just looking for another means by which he can use his misunderstanding of Judaism to give himself a false sense of superiority over his fellow human beings.
see now, JTB, you're not saying the right thing. One thing that is anti-Torah is stripping away someone's dignity. It's not nice.
I think I understand Tzvi now. I know why he says what he says. It's not out of malice, superiority, or self righteousness. It's out of love. I have no doubt about that. I disagree with him, however, i know his heart is in the right place..I suggest you first look for that in Tzvi before you continue defaming him and coming up with one line zingers which are fruitless.
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tzvi is showing anything but love for the Jewish people. On the contrary, he is showing hate, advocating murdering any Jew who does not keep the Sabbath, which basically describes all Jews, since there is no Jew who is so righteous that he never sins. I hardly think it worth anybody's time and energy to defend such a hater of his own people.
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tzvi is showing anything but love for the Jewish people. On the contrary, he is showing hate, advocating murdering any Jew who does not keep the Sabbath, which basically describes all Jews, since there is no Jew who is so righteous that he never sins. I hardly think it worth anybody's time and energy to defend such a hater of his own people.
if you actually belive what you have posted then please bring a quote that I have said that suggests me saying that Jews should be murdered. Anyway I want to thank you for making me learn more about the Holiness of Shabb-t and review and remind myself.
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tzvi is showing anything but love for the Jewish people. On the contrary, he is showing hate, advocating murdering any Jew who does not keep the Sabbath, which basically describes all Jews, since there is no Jew who is so righteous that he never sins. I hardly think it worth anybody's time and energy to defend such a hater of his own people.
He's not advocating murdering Jews who violate the Sabbath.
Besides, the right way to approach someone who actually does feel that way or comes off to feel that way is to rebuke him...to return the very love the other person is giving you.
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I pull no punches against anybody using any justification to murder my fellow Jews. My whole outlook on life stems from the inherent value I put on human life, especially Jewish lives.
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I pull no punches against anybody using any justification to murder my fellow Jews. My whole outlook on life stems from the inherent value I put on human life, especially Jewish lives.
and i 100% agree with that.
but when arguing with a fellow Jew, even if you disagreed with him 100%, name calling and rash one liners don't work. Rather, rebuking and sticking with your gun on that rebuke is the way to do it...
If you value human life, then you would value Tzvi's soul much of the same way I was doing on the last few posts to him. and by valuing life and souls, I don't mean accepting what someone has to say unconditionally...rather, if you really disagree, you rebuke...and you have certainly done that. But putting words in peoples' mouths isn't the right way if you value lives and souls.
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Jeremiah 17 :19-27
hear the word of Hashem, O kings of Judah and all of Judah and all inhabitants of Jerusalem who enter through these gates:Thus said Hashem: Beware for your souls: do not carry a burden on the Sabbath day to bring it into the gates of Jerusalem. And do not bring a burden out from your houses on the Sabbath day:you shall not do any[manner of ]work.Sanctify the Sabbath day as I commanded your forefathers.But they did not listen and did not incline their ear: they stiffened their neck, in order not to hear and in order not to accept rebuke And it shall be that if you truly listen to me-the word of Hashem-not to bring a burden into the gates of the city on the Sabbath day, and to sanctify the Sabbath day, not to do any [manner of] work on it. then, kings and princes who sit upon the throne of David will enter the gates of this city, riding chariots and horses- they and their officers, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and this city will be inhabited forever, and [people] will come the cities of Judah and from the environs of Jerusalem, from the land of Benjamin, from the lowland, from the mountain, and from the south , bringing burnt-offerings, peace-offerings, meal -offerings and frankincense, and bringing thanksgiving-offerings to the temple of Hashem. but if you do not listen to me , to sanctify the Sabbath day and not to carry burden and enter the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will set fire to its gates, which will consume the palaces of Jerusalem and not be extinguished.
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Actually, all I was doing was defending the inherent value of human (especially Jewish) life, as well as the good name of our Jewish religion. Spreading the idea that somehow the Sabbath is more important than human life, can only serve to give the antisemites still another excuse to hate us, not to mention all the secular Jews looking for an excuse to not immerse themselves in anything Jewish.
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Jeremiah 17 :19-27
hear the word of Hashem, O kings of Judah and all of Judah and all inhabitants of Jerusalem who enter through these gates:Thus said Hashem: Beware for your souls: do not carry a burden on the Sabbath day to bring it into the gates of Jerusalem. And do not bring a burden out from your houses on the Sabbath day:you shall not do any[manner of ]work.Sanctify the Sabbath day as I commanded your forefathers.But they did not listen and did not incline their ear: they stiffened their neck, in order not to hear and in order not to accept rebuke And it shall be that if you truly listen to me-the word of Hashem-not to bring a burden into the gates of the city on the Sabbath day, and to sanctify the Sabbath day, not to do any [manner of] work on it. then, kings and princes who sit upon the throne of David will enter the gates of this city, riding chariots and horses- they and their officers, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and this city will be inhabited forever, and [people] will come the cities of Judah and from the environs of Jerusalem, from the land of Benjamin, from the lowland, from the mountain, and from the south , bringing burnt-offerings, peace-offerings, meal -offerings and frankincense, and bringing thanksgiving-offerings to the temple of Hashem. but if you do not listen to me , to sanctify the Sabbath day and not to carry burden and enter the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will set fire to its gates, which will consume the palaces of Jerusalem and not be extinguished.
Rivera, there is nothing truer in this quote. But of course we should sanctify Israel, in particular, Jerusalem. I have no arguement with that...but this has nothing to do with comparing not sanctifying shabbat and murdering others.
Secondly, it has nothing to do with using the internet on Shabbat. Howver, one can make an arguement that using the internet is an act of work or lighting a fire by sparking electricty when typing on a keyboard or clicking on a mouse...I say, "eh...if one feels as though clicking on a mouse will tempt them to do work or come to close to barely causing a spark, then don't use the internet on shabbat." I'll accept that and in Israel, I will rely on the Sanhedrin to make a ruling on the matter to, for example, "close internet cafes" which is done already in Jerusalem anyway..
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Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?
You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?
yes, maybe worse (in some instances), either way for both the Torah says that they deserve death.
That's really nuts! I would rather violate every sabbath of my life by lighting a fire purposely than to kill an innocent person cold bloodedly!
You can violet the Shabbat if you are fighting for you life .
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Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize.
Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).
Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?
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Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize.
Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).
Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?
what do you mean?
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I like Chaims answer in this weeks Ask JTF to Dannycookie, it is very relevent to this discussion.
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Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize.
Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).
Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?
what do you mean?
In the Book Of Exodus chapter 31 verse 14 it says that a punishment for Shabbat violating is death :
" Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people"
The rabbis cancelled it .
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As I have already stated, just because the Torah says that this or that behavior should be put to death, does not mean that it should be taken literally. The Rabbis of the Talmud deliberately made it almost impossible to implement the death penalty in cases like violating the Sabbath, precisely because of the premium we put on the value of human life. Those statements in the Torah are meant to set standards, to let Jews know just how seriously they should consider the Sabbath to be.
Although I consider myself to be a Kahanist, I think that one of its dangers is that our cry for justice can turn into a murderous bloodbath when we turn against ourselves instead. It is one thing to call for the death of islamofascist murderers, which I support 100%; but quite another to turn that same energy against our own people, finding oneself using any excuse to murder one's fellow Jews.
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I like Chaims answer in this weeks Ask JTF to Dannycookie, it is very relevent to this discussion.
thanks tzvi, but which part did you like? The first part or the second part?
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Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize.
Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).
Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?
what do you mean?
In the Book Of Exodus chapter 31 verse 14 it says that a punishment for Shabbat violating is death :
" Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people"
The rabbis cancelled it .
no one cancelled it, no commandment is canceled ever. Just becuase it isnt executed doesnt mean that one who purposly and knowingly violates it doesnt deserve and wont get it threw divine means. For example someone who is a murderer and murdered someone else even though he isnt killed for it in the court below (human court) does it mean that divine justice wont be executed on him?
- anyway I didnt suggest killing someone who violates the Shabb-t, someone who does kill another person for violating the Shabb-t, himself deserves death, But one thing Jews should get out of this discussion is that Shabb-t is a critical Mitzva and breaking it is playing with fire- playing with life and death.
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I like Chaims answer in this weeks Ask JTF to Dannycookie, it is very relevent to this discussion.
thanks tzvi, but which part did you like? The first part or the second part?
I dont remember exactly but I think the whole thing.
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Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize.
Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).
Oh really ?
Did you know the Rebbies changed this law ?
what do you mean?
In the Book Of Exodus chapter 31 verse 14 it says that a punishment for Shabbat violating is death :
" Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people"
The rabbis cancelled it .
no one cancelled it, no commandment is canceled ever. Just becuase it isnt executed doesnt mean that one who purposly and knowingly violates it doesnt deserve and wont get it threw divine means. For example someone who is a murderer and murdered someone else even though he isnt killed for it in the court below (human court) does it mean that divine justice wont be executed on him?
- anyway I didnt suggest killing someone who violates the Shabb-t, someone who does kill another person for violating the Shabb-t, himself deserves death, But one thing Jews should get out of this discussion is that Shabb-t is a critical Mitzva and breaking it is playing with fire- playing with life and death.
Anyway, it's a very extream punishment, very very extream (death + karat) .
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tzvi sure seems awfully anxious about murdering as many sabbath-violating Jews as he can get his bloody hands on. I am beginning to suspect that he is really a moslem and not Jewish at all.
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tzvi sure seems awfully anxious about murdering as many sabbath-violating Jews as he can get his bloody hands on. I am beginning to suspect that he is really a moslem and not Jewish at all.
I don't think Tzvi is a muslim, but a very extream Jew, even the Charedim aren't like him .
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Dexter, thank you for saying that. Because if I thought that even the ultra-orthodox Jews would call for the death of their fellow Jews as freely as does tzvi here, I would want to have nothing to do with such an evil G-d and such a barbaric religion.
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Dexter, thank you for saying that. Because if I thought that even the ultra-orthodox Jews would call for the death of their fellow Jews as freely as does tzvi here, I would want to have nothing to do with such an evil G-d and such a barbaric religion.
You have repiditly accused me of wanting to kill fellow Jews, I asked you before to please bring your prof for these vicious accusations against me.
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Tzvi is a religious Jew from a certain school of learning different from me, Teddy Bear, and Dexter amongst many others.
Tzvi is a good Jew, but needs to word his opinions more properly so that a million people don't attack him in haste. I think I understand him much more now and he's not such a bad guy. I still disagree on a ton of things.
As far as violating Shabbat on purpose in a rebellious manner...yes it is an evil unJewish thing to do...can we all agree on that?
Now what do you think if a Jew rested on a 7th day, but not necessarily on the Jewish sabbath? Is that evil?
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Now what do you think if a Jew rested on a 7th day, but not necessarily on the Jewish sabbath? Is that evil?
yes, it is wronge. Shabb-t isnt just about not working and taking a day off. I posted a few links about Shabb-t, I highly recomend you listing to the lectures or reading from a website about Shabb-t. (ill post it in a sec.)
Seminar - December 20, 2006 - The Sabbat - Hebrew
(its in Hebrew- but its about the Shabb-t)
Seminar - January 11, 2006 - The Shabbat (this one is in english)
http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp
http://www.israel613.com/
www.Kolyakov.org
- please check these sites out.
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As a matter of fact, I do not regard a Sabbath violator to be an evil person, just not a particularly spiritual person. The only ones I regard as evil as those who actively harm their fellow human beings.
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
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As a matter of fact, I do not regard a Sabbath violator to be an evil person, just not a particularly spiritual person. The only ones I regard as evil as those who actively harm their fellow human beings.
I'm not talking about someone who violates Shabbat knowingly, but feels guilty about it. I'm talking about someone who actively cancels out shabbat...such as a self-hating Jew saying, "I"m great, nothing will happen to me, and just to prove it, I'm going to light a match for no reason on Saturday." That's evil to me.
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.
okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.
okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?
From his mind, moral and his logic .
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.
okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?
I dont' disagree with the first statement that it is a deep subject. Obviously if it is ruled by the rabbis that "Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder." Then I am incapable of understanding that rule until I study with a learned person and ask several rabbis to explain this statement. In my current way of thinking, this does not make one bit of sense. It sounds terribly ridiculous that breaking the Sabbath for a Jew is worse than murder. If this is a true Torah Jewish decree, I need to seriously have a talk with the rabbis because this statement can be used in an evil way against one's fellow brother he might not keep shabbat the same way another Jew might keep it.
Likewise, many decrees made by wise men back in the day about shabbat are fences to prevent one to be tempted to do business or light a flame, for example. IN other words, some Jews build fences 10 miles away from the Torah while others build their's 2 feet away from the Torah. It's these technicalities which worry me as a Jew and human being.
Therefore, I need to examine this decree further...but as long as I don't understand what this means, don't care who said it and when they said it, but as i understand it, murder is worse than if a Jew were to violate Shabbat...not vice versa...and I don't recommend any religious or non religious Jew to use that against his brethren!
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.
okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?
From his mind, moral and his logic .
I will repeat on this basis of the arguement: "A Jew to violate Shabbat is worse than murder"
One can canclude to the following evil deeds:
1. Murder someone innocent and hide the evidence and walking around observing a strict sabbath like nothing happened.
2. Advocate the murder of an innocent non-shomer shabbat Jew because he didn't follow Shabbat
3. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had the choice of losing his life unless he took the life of a non shomer shabbat Jew.
4. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had a choice of being killed versus purposely lighting a match for 2 seconds every Saturday (and that's it), he would take his own life.
5. To treat his fellow Jew who is not shomer shabbat or simply practices shabbat in a different manner than himself in disdain thereby violating the other commandment of loving thy neighbor.
6. To cause a mentally unstable Jew who is not shomer shabbat to feel guilty about not practicing shabbat properly and taking his own life since, after all, his own life is not worth it if he doing somethign considered to be "worse than murder".
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okay, then start learning, and then when you get the right knowledge write down and correct people when they make a mistake, you cant say I feel this way + I didnt learn enough about the subject so I have my own different opinion. We are not stating opinion we are stating fact, it would be wise to read it, investigate it (by learning Torah), and change ones ways once we see that it is correct.
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Chazal said :
דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה
"The way of the land comes befor the Torah" = manners, honor, integrity, honestly (..etc') are more importent than the Torah .
Therefor, I think that the Shabbat is not like a murder because a murder is immoral, and it's against the "The way of the land" and the Shabbat is from the Torah .
That is at least the way I understand it .
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.
okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?
From his mind, moral and his logic .
I will repeat on this basis of the arguement: "A Jew to violate Shabbat is worse than murder"
One can canclude to the following evil deeds:
1. Murder someone innocent and hide the evidence and walking around observing a strict sabbath like nothing happened.
2. Advocate the murder of an innocent non-shomer shabbat Jew because he didn't follow Shabbat
3. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had the choice of losing his life unless he took the life of a non shomer shabbat Jew.
4. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had a choice of being killed versus purposely lighting a match for 2 seconds every Saturday (and that's it), he would take his own life.
5. To treat his fellow Jew who is not shomer shabbat or simply practices shabbat in a different manner than himself in disdain thereby violating the other commandment of loving thy neighbor.
6. To cause a mentally unstable Jew who is not shomer shabbat to feel guilty about not practicing shabbat properly and taking his own life since, after all, his own life is not worth it if he doing somethign considered to be "worse than murder".
#1- #4- you are right, and we cannot do that. #5 is tricky. and #6- someone who is mentally unstable is free from the Mitzvot he or she doesnt have to follow them, + the purpose of me and anyone else writing these warning's to the public here is to show the seriousness of this sin and to hopefully convice and help people not to do it. And no one is advocating them to commit suicide (which would be even worse for them, but to change their ways and G-d willing repent). - actually it would be wronge not to warn someone and have them commit spiritual suicide which is a lot worse.
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Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.
If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.
But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.
Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.
okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?
From his mind, moral and his logic .
I will repeat on this basis of the arguement: "A Jew to violate Shabbat is worse than murder"
One can canclude to the following evil deeds:
1. Murder someone innocent and hide the evidence and walking around observing a strict sabbath like nothing happened.
2. Advocate the murder of an innocent non-shomer shabbat Jew because he didn't follow Shabbat
3. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had the choice of losing his life unless he took the life of a non shomer shabbat Jew.
4. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had a choice of being killed versus purposely lighting a match for 2 seconds every Saturday (and that's it), he would take his own life.
5. To treat his fellow Jew who is not shomer shabbat or simply practices shabbat in a different manner than himself in disdain thereby violating the other commandment of loving thy neighbor.
6. To cause a mentally unstable Jew who is not shomer shabbat to feel guilty about not practicing shabbat properly and taking his own life since, after all, his own life is not worth it if he doing somethign considered to be "worse than murder".
#1- #4- you are right, and we cannot do that. #5 is tricky. and #6- someone who is mentally unstable is free from the Mitzvot he or she doesnt have to follow them, + the purpose of me and anyone else writing these warning's to the public here is to show the seriousness of this sin and to hopefully convice and help people not to do it. And no one is advocating them to commit suicide (which would be even worse for them, but to change their ways and G-d willing repent). - actually it would be wronge not to warn someone and have them commit spiritual suicide which is a lot worse.
Tzvi, I don't know why, but if Jeffguy's statment is true about Judaism :
"If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion."
Than I just have no enough words to express what I think about it .
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Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
I agree with this statement. I too believe in the great importance and value of Sabbath keeping, may Moshiach come soon.
Of course, if I know a Jew does not keep the Sabbath (although it bothers me somewhat) I dont judge or say anything to them, I just hope that one day they will find spirituality and STRENGTH to keep Shabbos. It's easy not to keep Shabbos and easy not keep Kosher but it takes strenght, love and spirituality to keep these blessings. Plus to me, the easy way is NOT always the right way!
(ok it used to bother so much that a while ago I stoped e-mailing a Jewish lady who became a "Catholic convert" because she kept e-mailing me on Saturday morning after I kept asking her not to!) But since then I have become less judgemental.
Its not about being judgemtal, its about warning the public. Every Jew has an obligation to warn his Jewish friends/ peers, etc. about the seriourness of the Torah and the damage of the transgressions. If people are on this board or anywhere else and they see views contrary to the Torah you have an obligation to protest it, if you dont Hazal say that you are also responsible for the sins. (up to a point,- which is where they yell at you then you arent obligated any longer). + if you love them wouldnt you want them to earn Olam Haba and not suffer from the transgressions they make?
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Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.
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Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.
Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.
I agree with this statement. I too believe in the great importance and value of Sabbath keeping, may Moshiach come soon.
Of course, if I know a Jew does not keep the Sabbath (although it bothers me somewhat) I dont judge or say anything to them, I just hope that one day they will find spirituality and STRENGTH to keep Shabbos. It's easy not to keep Shabbos and easy not keep Kosher but it takes strenght, love and spirituality to keep these blessings. Plus to me, the easy way is NOT always the right way!
(ok it used to bother so much that a while ago I stoped e-mailing a Jewish lady who became a "Catholic convert" because she kept e-mailing me on Saturday morning after I kept asking her not to!) But since then I have become less judgemental.
Its not about being judgemtal, its about warning the public. Every Jew has an obligation to warn his Jewish friends/ peers, etc. about the seriourness of the Torah and the damage of the transgressions. If people are on this board or anywhere else and they see views contrary to the Torah you have an obligation to protest it, if you dont Hazal say that you are also responsible for the sins. (up to a point,- which is where they yell at you then you arent obligated any longer). + if you love them wouldnt you want them to earn Olam Haba and not suffer from the transgressions they make?
I still have an issue. Gd will hopefully forgive on Yom Kippur for transgressing on Shabbat...but if we murder, we're pretty much screwed...Tzvi and Jeffguy, it makes no sense the statement..however, I'll ask an orthodox torah jewish rabbi about this to try to explain to me what your statement means.
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Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.
I'm downloading it .
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another very relevent shiur for this topic-
Pinchas Gan Eden Baal Teshuva - in (the bottom)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
from about 1 hour (a little before and onward).- Im reviewing the lecture and see that its very relevent to this topic.
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Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.
Which part is about our discussion ?
It's taking very long time to download it, I watched part 1 and it's about the Q. "who is a Jew" and about Christianey and Islam .
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Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.
Which part is about our discussion ?
It's taking very long time to download it, I watched part 1 and it's about the Q. "who is a Jew" and about Christianey and Islam .
actually its about proving why the Torah can only be divine. Since its divine- and once you will see, then you cant bring any proof contrary to it, - the real question I see here is- iis the Torah Divine or just another book. If you belive its Divine then how can you argue against it- if you agree (and actually see why) that its Divine then how can anyone here or anywhere not agree and go against it?
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Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.
Which part is about our discussion ?
It's taking very long time to download it, I watched part 1 and it's about the Q. "who is a Jew" and about Christianey and Islam .
actually its about proving why the Torah can only be divine. Since its divine- and once you will see, then you cant bring any proof contrary to it, - the real question I see here is- iis the Torah Divine or just another book. If you belive its Divine then how can you argue against it- if you agree (and actually see why) that its Divine then how can anyone here or anywhere not agree and go against it?
Than you think that the people that violet the Shabbat should be dead ???
It isn't the point if the Torah is true or not, the point is :
-Does this punishment is moral and isn't A BIT out of proportions ?
-Does the statment that "If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion." is true, is it morral and logical ?
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Actually it has everything to do with accepting the Torah or not. If you accept then accept it 100% and dont say that I disagree with this or that Law. If you do not accept the Torah and have any doubts then listin to that lecture and see why the Torah is more valid then simple human logic and everyone who says "I think..."
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Tzvi -
You basiclly saying that we shouldn't think and act logicly befor we working acorrding a book that going to effect every espect of our live ?
That's insane !
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Tzvi -
You basiclly saying that we shouldn't think and act logicly befor we working acorrding a book that going to effect every espect of our live ?
That's insane !
Im sorry you dont agree with me(yet), I understand why- because of the society you grew up around (I also have), but dont you ask yourself why you were created for? - I mean if you came to this earth do eat, sleep, have relations with women then you could have been a chimpanze- what does G-d need you here for. Of course a Jews life should revolve around THE BOOK which is no other then the orders of G-d himself.
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Anybody who says that it is worse for a Jew to violate the Sabbath than it is for him to murder his fellow human being, is distorting Judaism in such a perverted, disgusting way, that by making this statement, he is committing a major desecration of G-d's name, which in itself is considered one of the worst crimes that a Jew can commit.
Murder is the worst act that one can possibly commit. That is really the beginning, middle, and ending of this issue.
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I still say that murdering someone is worse than violating the Sabbath (and Jeffguy and Tzvi is wrong) since you are permitted to violate the Sabbath to save someone's life but if someone tells you to murder someone or he'll kill you then you are obligated to give your own life rather than murder.
As for the saying that one who violates the Sabbath isn't in G-d's minion but a murderer is, please tell me the source of this as it does sound familiar. Anyways, this has NOTHING to do with the current argument (you are all being tricked) since there are certain commandments (3 I think) that if one violates is not considered in G-d's covenent like Circumsision, Violating the Sabbath and Worshipping Idols. This is a Chok. It has nothing to do with the severity of violating the commandment as you all wrongly thought. How do you know this? Violating the commandment for Circumsision or violating the Sabbath is not comparable to murdering someone in severity as indicated by the above argument. Also given that one is not executed for not being circumsized as one is for worshipping idols and for violating the Sabbath proves that the listing has nothing to do with the severity of violating the commandment. Given that the 3 are not equal in severity and there are other commandments of equal severity not listed as making one not part of the covenent, this rule has nothing to do with the severity of the action and such information can not be derived as this rule is simply a Chok transmitted from Sinai with no logical reason.
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As for the saying that one who violates the Sabbath isn't in G-d's minion but a murderer is, please tell me the source of this as it does sound familiar.
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
Pinchas Gan Eden Baal Teshuva (amoung other places I have heard), a little before 1 hour into the lecture).
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I went to two orthodox rabbis...torah loving orthodox rabbis who are religious nationalist types...and they were baffled and never heard of such a thing...
but i will give my two sense about murderers and shabbat violators...if such a quote exists by many many rabbis, I can gaurantee you that it is meant as a metaphor.
My friends, Shabbat is supposed to be a beautiful thing...One who chooses not to observe it who is Jewish is also harming himself. The way one chooses to find peace on the 7th day however will be different from another person. The way one decides to build his fences will be different from another less or more observant person..therefore, although it might be a metaphor to say that a shabbat violator who is Jewish is doing worse than murder....it's wrong to say such things to non observant Jews...you turn them off to Torah when yo usay things like that! and you do far more harm than good..think before you speak such crazy things..and udnerstand why are you are saying and rationalize that you are talking to othe rhuman beings who are beginning to learn torah. It's a very ugly statement to say that someone like me who doesn't mean to violate shabbat and happens to not be as "high and mighty" and as observant as you as worse than a murderer, Tzvi! Think...we are brethren...when you say things like this to someone who not as understanding as me, they will take the Torah scroll and Gd forbid burn it because of what you just said!
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The way one chooses to find peace on the 7th day however will be different from another person.
Read my post correctly I said in some aspects.
And about your statement- Im sorry that is complete heresy. Even though you seem like I nice guy and I might be tempted to say that okay you are right or whatever, no Jew who knows the truth is allowed to even give a hint that you are right is what you just said. You talked to a Rav- so you should ask him more importantly how you should keep Shabb-t, and not make your own ideas based on nothing (or even so called logical intentions).
[JDL4EVER- STOP Making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews. You're setting a very bad example by constantly defaming dannycookie and such tactics are unacceptable and only drive people away.]
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What do you expect us to do, we can't lie about what the Torah says. The Torah says that if you violate the Sabbath you are to be stoned, we didn't make that up. This is not to say we think that the not religious are evil and should be killed. You are not held responsible if you did not have a proper Jewish education or upbringing and are not familiar with the Torah. We are here to educate you.
Tzvi Ben Roshel, I'm going to ban you if you continue making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.
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Tzvi Ben Roshel, I'm going to ban you if you continue making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.
when was I nasty ???
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From the way he keeps insisting on giving Judaism a bad name, I strongly suspect that tzvi is not even Jewish. The belief system he is describing is certainly different from the Orthodox Judaism that I have spent decades learning.
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Tzvi Ben Roshel, tell me in all honesty have you ever gone out into the world and talked to not religious Jews?
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Tzvi Ben Roshel, tell me in all honesty have you ever gone out into the world and talked to not religious Jews?
yea, everyday, Im not in a religious enviornment (unless im in shul). When the Halacha is in question I say what I know becuase it is my obligation to say it- those who keep silent are responsible for the sins. '
-most of the people I know arent religious, -if I see I can have some influence on them, I keep contact, if not then I dont want to interact with them- ill just say hi, bye, thats about it.
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Tzvi Ben Roshel, your way of talking is the way 2 close friends learning Talmud together in the Yeshiva sometimes talk. They usually are very direct and confrontational in order to better understand the Torah but since they are close friends they don't get offended. When people don't interact with the rest of the world and try to use this type of language on other Orthodox Jews who are not their close friends from the same Yeshivah, they usually start insulting them and calling them names since they never had someone with radically different opinions and their mind goes crazy since before this they only argued about minor concepts in the same Yeshivah and end up making a Chillul Hashem. When they go out and talk to non Orthodox Jews, the Chillul Hashem is even greater. Therefore I ask if you ever went out into the world before since his language is very insulting and will do the opposite of what you intend it to do. My advise is to never talk this way to people, you've been insulting these guys for 13 pages and you are making a Chillul Hashem.
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The way one chooses to find peace on the 7th day however will be different from another person.
Read my post correctly I said in some aspects.
And about your statement- Im sorry that is complete heresy. Even though you seem like I nice guy and I might be tempted to say that okay you are right or whatever, no Jew who knows the truth is allowed to even give a hint that you are right is what you just said. You talked to a Rav- so you should ask him more importantly how you should keep Shabb-t, and not make your own ideas based on nothing (or even so called logical intentions).
[JDL4EVER- STOP Making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews. You're setting a very bad example by constantly defaming dannycookie and such tactics are unacceptable and only drive people away.]
JDL4EVER never defamed me...in fact nobody here has really ever defamed me.
but i'll tell you Zvi, I'm not an observant Jew and am in the motion of learning as I go and questioning what I don't understand...and btw, I'm 30 years old and not 13...so if you are younger than me, you should have the gumption to at least show some respect and the way you choose your words even in generalizing of how a Jew ought to act.
But from 30 years of experiencing life I have learned that it is only common sense to treat your fellow human being with dignity and that's where it all starts. Without that light, understanding anything any wise man teaches or writes based on his inspiration from Gd will come out all wrong and make no sense..so just think about it. You stated something last night that deeply hurt my feelings that a Jew who violates the Torah is committing a sin worse than murder. It felt as if every fact that I learned in my life along with Chaim's answers on ask JTF for the last 8 months or so to be a farse according to what you wrote...so please think about it.
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okay maybe you are right, when posting I didnt realize that it would insult people. - but please tell me after reading about some people making light of Shabb-t what was I supposed to say?
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What do you expect us to do, we can't lie about what the Torah says. The Torah says that if you violate the Sabbath you are to be stoned, we didn't make that up. This is not to say we think that the not religious are evil and should be killed. You are not held responsible if you did not have a proper Jewish education or upbringing and are not familiar with the Torah. We are here to educate you.
Tzvi Ben Roshel, I'm going to ban you if you continue making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.
jdl4ever, in as much what is written in the Torah by the hand of Gd, it is also necessary to understand the context it was written and at the time it was written. Doesn't it concern you that one day you might have to stone a friend of yours who did something he wasn't supposed to do on Shabbat? Doesn't also concern you if someone goes with the motions of shabbat but deep in his heart hates it?
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Perhaps one way that tzvi can get out of this mess would be if we would change the subject? This topic has become like beating a dead horse into the ground.
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okay maybe you are right, when posting I didnt realize that it would insult people. - but please tell me after reading about some people making light of Shabb-t what was I supposed to say?
You are supposed to write "The Orthodox viewpoint differs and is the following ... " as to not offend anyone or hurt anyone's feelings as loving your neighbor as yourself is the key to the Torah. Never say negative things like "your a heretic", "you are going to burn in hell", or even "you are wrong". You always present information respectfully so that if they are interested they will read it. No one will read what you say if you call them names and insult what they write. You will be ignored and they will hate you. Only insult outright nazis or muslims.
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okay maybe you are right, when posting I didnt realize that it would insult people. - but please tell me after reading about some people making light of Shabb-t what was I supposed to say?
I forgive you...because i know you didn't mean harm or any maliciousness towards me. And it's Yom Kippur so I want you to just think about Gd forgiving your for your sins and not me holding a grudge...anyway...
In my opinion, let's say Shabbat, for example...you talk about how beautiful it is to be away from nonsense such as found in internet chat rooms etc etc etc...My understanding of the concept of Shabbat is to be at peace...to not let your inner fire light up and not just the matches. I think that's where it should start...finding one day out of 7 days to find peace within oneself and making that day different from all other days. Dinner with the WHOLE family, no TV, no radio, no college football, shul, meaningful discussions, Pirket Avot, nap time, Havdalah candles at teh end of the day...in the end, that's the whole point of Shabbat.
Ok, meticulous things like not taking hot showers, flicking on a light switch, typing on a keyboard, writing, studying for biology class..ok...i respect all observant Jews who are scrupulous..for me, at this point in my life, is quite a stretch. But one day at a time..or with the help from Gd, my children and grandchildren will become more observant especially in the rabbinical sense with fences and all.
however, right now, I ponder about these fences. On the one hand I can make such fences a reality to me in regards to waiting for a subway...technically you should be in front of that yellow line..so, some build a fence to be just behind the yellow line and others wait 3 feet from the yellow line..I personally stand back against the wall..that's my fence protecting me from danger...and so with Torah the same goes with preventing oneself from temptation. So let's say, "thou shalt not eat a calf in its mother's milk". There are fences including poultry to not mix it with dairy..me personally, i'm not tempted to eat cheese burgers when I eat chicken parmesian...to others they will get tempted. THe vast majority of Jews do it because it was the tradition of their home.
anyway..i'm off on a tangent..
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jdl4ever, in as much what is written in the Torah by the hand of Gd, it is also necessary to understand the context it was written and at the time it was written. Doesn't it concern you that one day you might have to stone a friend of yours who did something he wasn't supposed to do on Shabbat? Doesn't also concern you if someone goes with the motions of shabbat but deep in his heart hates it?
Each and every period of about 20 years in each and every major geographical area in the world has a certain set of time dependent beliefs. This is called a "paradigm". Every generation, the set of cultural beliefs in that area changes, what is known as a "paradigm shift". Let's use America for example. In the current era of 2007, most people in America are liberal, don't believe in G-d, believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay, thought spanking children was bad, don't support the death penalty as well as a hundred other parameters. Such beliefs had existed for about one generation. Now just two generation earlier (1957-1967), the paradigm of our society was much different than it was today. The majority of Americans were conservative, believed in G-d, thought homosexuality was unnatural, thought spanking children was good and supported the death penalty. The next generation went a paradigm shift and the cultural beliefs in America changed and then another paradigm shift occurred and we have the cultural norms of this era. Now, this is only the current paradigm in America, in other areas of the world the paradigm is very different. For example, in India the cultural norm may be to worship cows and to never eat meat.
Knowing the way cultural time dependant beliefs of geographical areas in the world change rapidly from one generation to the next is crucial into understanding the Torah. Orthodox Judaism believes that the Torah is the word of G-d and is therefore immutable and can not be changed. Because if the Torah was generation dependant and can be changed, we would have nothing left of the Torah in our time since the Torah was in existence for about 3400 years. During 3400 years there would have been 170 paradigm shifts, each different in various areas of the world that the Jews lived. With all these paradigm shifts adapting the Torah principles to each cultural norm like the cultural norm of the Romans to murder people and worship idols and the Muslim cultural norm to hump animals, each commandment in the Torah would change so frequently as to render the Torah useless, since each area of the world would practice it differently and each commandment would no longer have any semblance to the original text written by Moses.
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jdl4ever, in as much what is written in the Torah by the hand of Gd, it is also necessary to understand the context it was written and at the time it was written. Doesn't it concern you that one day you might have to stone a friend of yours who did something he wasn't supposed to do on Shabbat? Doesn't also concern you if someone goes with the motions of shabbat but deep in his heart hates it?
Each and every period of about 20 years in each and every major geographical area in the world has a certain set of time dependent beliefs. This is called a "paradyme". Every generation, the set of cultural beliefs in that area changes, what is known as a "paradyme shift". Let's use America for example. In the current era of 2007, most people in America are liberal, don't believe in G-d, believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay, thought spanking children was bad, don't support the death penalty as well as a hundred other parameters. Such beliefs had existed for about one generation. Now just two generation earlier (1957-1967), the paradigm of our society was much different than it was today. The majority of Americans were conservative, believed in G-d, thought homosexuality was unnatural, thought spanking children was good and supported the death penalty. The next generation went a pradyme shift and the cultural beliefs in America changed and then another paradyme shift ocured and we have the cultural norms of this era. Now, this is only the current paradigm in America, in other areas of the world the paradigm is very different. For example, in India the cultural norm may be to worship cows and to never eat meat.
Knowing the way cultural time dependant beliefs of geographical areas in the world change rapidly from one generation to the next is crucial into understanding the Torah. Orthodox Judaism believes that the Torah is the word of G-d and is therefore immutable and can not be changed. Because if the Torah was generation dependant and can be changed, we would have nothing left of the Torah in our time since the Torah was in existance for about 3400 years. During 3400 years there would have been 170 paradigm shifts, each different in various areas of the world that the Jews lived. With all these paradigm shifts adapting the Torah principles to each cultural norm like the cultural norm of the Romans to murder people and worship idols and the Muslim cultural norm to hump animials, each commandment in the Torah would change so frequently as to render the Torah useless, since each area of the world would practice it differently and each commandment would no longer have any sembelance to the original text written by Moses.
hahaha nice! Well anyway, there may be a pardigm shift once a true religious zionist govt takes over in Israel and when almost every Jew around the world lives in Israel...
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Re: "...The Torah says that if you violate the Sabbath you are to be stoned, we didn't make that up..."
True.
But neither did Torah make up the passage where Moshe appoints Judges to hear the Children of Israel and make judgements of the law, telling them "...and you shall judge the Children of Israel, each according to his generation."
Talmud discusses this passage to mean that every generation is different than the previous generation; living as their environment and world changes constantly about them, and that therefore the Law must be judiciously applied and interpreted to suit the times of each generation.
The Sages of the Talmud knew more about Torah long ago than do I now.
Modern man does not obey the Law as it was written for the generation which dwelled 40 years in the Wilderness.
The Law remains, but by necessity its application "to the exact letter of the Law" is no longer applicable.
If it was still taken literally, with no interpretation (and remember...it was MOSHE who ordered it be interpreted to suit each generation) then we ALL would have been dead long ago.
And, if we were sinless, there would not be a Yom Kippur given us by Ha'Shem through Moshe.
You show me a person who demands the very letter of the law be carrried out as it was written for desert dwellers in the year 1500 BC, and I'll show you a bunch of Wahabi and Taliban cutting off hands and feet and whipping their women.
We Jews have spent 2000 years wandering in Exile among non-Jews, forced to live within every civilization and nation up to the present day.
We are no longer a people with a mindset exactly as it was the day we departed Pharoah's Egypt.
Why don't you in dispute take care of your own individual spiritual conditions?
In the end that is all any one of us can control.
Think about it.
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Re: "...there may be a pardigm shift..."
The only real paradigm shift is coming with Moshiach, and most likely sooner than any of us here expect.
Moshiach is who will lead ALL Jews back to Eretz Yisrael.
Moshiach is who will rebuild the 3rd Temple and establish the reign of Ha'Shem throughout the entire world.
Until then we do the best we can, and we should remember that it is Moshiach who establishes The World to Come and not JTF.
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Amen!
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dannycookie5: "...Amen!..."
THAT DID IT!
YOU ONLY SAID "AMEN!" JUST TO START A FIGHT WITH ME!
DIDN'T YOU? DIDN'T YOU? ;D :D :P
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listen, there is a little truth to what most people say even if it is opposite to another truth.
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does that mean that there is also little truth to what dannyCookie says?
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I think this topic has been a very good one and I was glad to see the debate. I think most people were very respectful and handled this debate well.
There are two areas where keeping Shabbat can be broken, for serious medical reasons or to save human life. Murder can never be broken. So in this regard, I can understand why someone would think this but Torah doesn't always "seem" logical (at first).
I am simply telling you how serious of an issue this really is for Jewish people. If I don't say something, it's as bad as if I took part... just like Chaim says about the whole islam thing and standing up against evil. If we sit here and say nothing... it's as if we condoned it.
A lot of people got offended at this. That's really unfortunate because it's a beautiful thing (to observe Shabbat). Honestly, I still mess up all the time. I'll accidentally turn lights off, accidentally turn on the hot water, not thinking - open a food package, out of habit strike up a conversation about work, etc... but all Jewish people should strive to take a step towards Shabbat observance. We do everything one step at a time so I didn't mean to overwhelm you. Taking one small but difficult step means more to Hashem than someone who observed all their life. OZ77 once told me "Commit yourself to one thing at a time ... and always remember that your small steps are much bigger to Hashem than any Orthodox Jew who was brought up religious... The more you sacrifice the greater your reward will be in the afterlife." I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him but I think these words are very profound.
Still... the penalty in the Torah for breaking Shabbat is death and thankfully we have incredible and endless mercy from Hashem for this generation. The Bible is VERY clear on this issue.
Of course, if I know a Jew does not keep the Sabbath (although it bothers me somewhat) I dont judge or say anything to them, I just hope that one day they will find spirituality and STRENGTH to keep Shabbos. It's easy not to keep Shabbos and easy not keep Kosher but it takes strenght, love and spirituality to keep these blessings. Plus to me, the easy way is NOT always the right way!
I am glad you said this. I don't judge either, Mills. I wasn't always religious and didn't always keep Shabbat. If we are hateful to other Jewish people who are trying, then what good is that going to do?
Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.
Tzvi is right. Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi is awesome and anyone with questions on this topic should check out this audio. I think he covers it's in MUCH greater detail and answers almost every questions posted in here. The information is there if you have questions.
Still, please... Jewish people should not be posting (or logging in for that matter) in the forum on Shabbat or Yom Kippur. I am absolutely against this. Let's keep Shabbat Holy and be an example.
"Whoever is careful with the observance of Shabbat, will be forgiven for all his sins, even idolatry" (Masechet Shabbat 118b)
"If the Children of Israel would observe one Shabbat properly, the Mashiach would immediately come" (Yerushalmi Taanit 1,1)
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"We have seen the fundamental importance of the prohibition of Melacha on Shabbat. We have seen that even one Melacha-Act on Shabbat strikes at the roots of the whole Torah, and is an arrogant denial of G-d and his mastery of the world."
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/protect.htm (http://www.ou.org/chagim/shabbat/protect.htm)
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There is a good reason why no Sabbath violators been been killed by the Jewish courts: because it would be an act of murder.
The Torah states that the penalty for violating the Sabbath is death, not so that we Jews would become as fond of murdering each other as the moslems are of murdering anything that breathes, but rather to set a standard, to emphasize how important the Sabbath is.
The Talmudic sages understood this, and deliberately made the conditions for killing Sabbath violators almost impossible to execute.
Furthermore, it is highly questionable whether anybody in here is even allowed according to Jewish law to try to force other Jews to keep the Sabbath. It is actually forbidden to reprimand a fellow Jew about a given behavior if that person is not going to change his behavior as a result. I know for myself, that the more strident and intolerant some people have sounded here about the subject, the more I intend to NOT keep the Sabbath. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. Treating each other with respect is far more important than observing the Sabbath.
There are, of course, much kinder, gentler ways to urge one's fellow Jews to keep the Sabbath, but something tells me that the more strident ones in here are not really interested in, for example, reprimanding their fellow Jew by inviting them into their homes for a Sabbath meal, where they can experience the beauty of that day. No, they are not interested in such a kind approach, because they wish to use religion as a way to give themselves a false sense of their own superiority.
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There is a good reason why no Sabbath violators been been killed by the Jewish courts: because it would be an act of murder.
The Torah states that the penalty for violating the Sabbath is death, not so that we Jews would become as fond of murdering each other as the moslems are of murdering anything that breathes, but rather to set a standard, to emphasize how important the Sabbath is.
The Talmudic sages understood this, and deliberately made the conditions for killing Sabbath violators almost impossible to execute.
Furthermore, it is highly questionable whether anybody in here is even allowed according to Jewish law to try to force other Jews to keep the Sabbath. It is actually forbidden to reprimand a fellow Jew about a given behavior if that person is not going to change his behavior as a result. I know for myself, that the more strident and intolerant some people have sounded here about the subject, the more I intend to NOT keep the Sabbath. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. Treating each other with respect is far more important than observing the Sabbath.
There are, of course, much kinder, gentler ways to urge one's fellow Jews to keep the Sabbath, but something tells me that the more strident ones in here are not really interested in, for example, reprimanding their fellow Jew by inviting them into their homes for a Sabbath meal, where they can experience the beauty of that day. No, they are not interested in such a kind approach, because they wish to use religion as a way to give themselves a false sense of their own superiority.
I"ll tell you, when Rivera first started this post and Tzvi chimed in, I was so tempted to go on this forum every shabbat on purpose because the way the statement was presented was a high and mighty type statement. I just wanted to say, "Dont tell me what to do? you're not the boss of me"
but honestly, i would want to undestand if going on teh internet or typing on teh computer is an actual form of desecrating shabbat or if it is a fence built around the torah to prevent one from beign tempted to desecrate shabbat.
I also have another question about shabbat. what if one is a dentist or doctor? Is he allowed to see his/her patients on shabbat?
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Because of the way that some people in this forum have used Sabbath to feel superior over their fellow Jews, I intend to make a special point of coming in here on precisely that day.
As to whether the internet can be used on Shabbat or not, all authorities agree that you definitely cannot turn your computer on or off on Shabbat, nor can you print anything on that day either. There is some disagreement as to whether one can use it once it is already on, but even in such cases, all agree that being on the internet on shabbat is not in the spirit of that day. In short, better to stay off it entirely on Shabbat.
As for doctors and dentists, they normally are not allowed to work on Shabbat just like any other Jew. The only exception to this is to save a person's life. This can have wide application; for example, a woman entering labor is considered to have her life enough in danger that her husband would be halachically required to make sure his wife gets to hospital ASAP, even on Shabbat.
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JewishTeddybear, you are a nice person and we like you but I have to be very frank with your response. Please hear me out.
Treating each other with respect is far more important than observing the Sabbath.
Who said? That is ridiculous. That's the "honor/shame mentality" straight from islam and black thugs in gangs. You don't "do" or "not do" because of other people. The Torah is VERY clear on that. How could this even be an argument?
No, they are not interested in such a kind approach, because they wish to use religion as a way to give themselves a false sense of their own superiority.
Who has claimed superiority over you? Seriously. I can tell you that I do not feel superior over you. I don't even know you other than the forum.
Because of the way that some people in this forum have used Sabbath to feel superior over their fellow Jews, I intend to make a special point of coming in here on precisely that day.
As to whether the internet can be used on Shabbat or not, all authorities agree that you definitely cannot turn your computer on or off on Shabbat, nor can you print anything on that day either. There is some disagreement as to whether one can use it once it is already on, but even in such cases, all agree that being on the internet on shabbat is not in the spirit of that day. In short, better to stay off it entirely on Shabbat.
As for doctors and dentists, they normally are not allowed to work on Shabbat just like any other Jew. The only exception to this is to save a person's life. This can have wide application; for example, a woman entering labor is considered to have her life enough in danger that her husband would be halachically required to make sure his wife gets to hospital ASAP, even on Shabbat.
So you give the reasons right there and then you chose to make some kind of point (I'm not really sure to who) to break Shabbat and do it publicly? This is your protest? Geez, man. Don't be so irrational. Let me explain... I am honored that you wish to make some sort of point to me (or that you feel we are this important to show something to) but you are wasting your time - and doing something awful to Torah. That's not a very well thought out protest. You aren't hurting me... You are hurting yourself.
I am no tzadik on Shabbat. I make mistakes all the time. I struggle with it. And when it's multiple days together... wow... it's HARD. But if you log in and do stuff to make some kind of imaginary point because of your pride, ego, and rebellion, how much respect do you actually think you are going to "earn"?
There are, of course, much kinder, gentler ways to urge one's fellow Jews to keep the Sabbath, but something tells me that the more strident ones in here are not really interested in, for example, reprimanding their fellow Jew by inviting them into their homes for a Sabbath meal, where they can experience the beauty of that day.
I like this. That's why I ended with it. I think this is a wonderful thing and more people should do this. On this point, you are 100% correct. This has motivated me and is beautiful.
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There is a good reason why no Sabbath violators been been killed by the Jewish courts: because it would be an act of murder.
The courts tried everything not to kill any violators- even murderers- so thats not a good proof- becuase they said let G-d really do the judgements (so they tried every excuse by cross examming and trying to find 1 contradiction in both the Shabb-t cases and the murder cases). - if the Jewish court did execute and their were executions- for example the fist violator was killed in Moshe's time for violating it- it is not murder- if you say its murder then you are judging our Hachamim and even Moshe as a murderer?
- what you said on the last post really disturbs me. No one is trying to "feel superior", but just to point Halacha out, stop putting things into my mouth and please get yourself out of all of these confussions. And even if someone here is responsible for making you feel bad or whateva you belive to happen (which isnt true)- You would then purposly go on the forum just because of that?- at the end of the day you wont be doing harm to me, you will only be doing harm to yourself.(how would you get your "revenge" or whatever you seem to be implying)- whateva think about it.
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What is ridiculous is to NOT consider how we treat each other to be more important than the sabbath. When the gentile came to Hillel demanding that Hillel teach him the entire Torah standing on one foot, Hillel did not mention the sabbath at all. Instead, he said, "Do not do to others what you would not have others do to you. All the rest is commentary."
And yes, the more people in here arrogantly and self-righteously try to shove the ritual aspects of Judaism down our throats, the more I am going to rebel and do the very opposite. I let no man rule over me, not even strangers on an internet forum who exploit their defective understanding of religion to gain a false sense of their own superiority.
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Jeffguy great to see you are listing to Rav Mizrahi- he really has a lot of Knowledge, do you also know that their are allways updates on http://kolyakov.org/ -of Rav Mizrahi and other great Rabbanim (Im listing right now, its like heaven).
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OK here is why the computer biblically violates the Sabbath (and don't tell me it is bull crap since I am a biochemistry major and understand this stuff). The cathode ray tube of a CRT monitor is definitely in the category of lighting a fire since a beam of high energy electrons are forced off a superheated cathode at very high voltages. All Rabbis agree that there is no difference between a candle and a light bulb. The temperature at the cathode tip in the cathode ray tube is hotter than your oven. And you were to pump some flammable material in there it would ignite it. If you smash the monitor it would expolde due to the cathode's tip vaporizing. Also, the various lights on the computer are considered like lighting a fire (if the are LEDs then it is questionable) and they don't all stay on. The hard drive indicator light blinks as you use the computer, as does the caps lock light, as does the network light indicator. Also the brush type motors in the computer (they are used to cool the fans) are probably considered like lighting a fire since if you ever took one of these apart and watched them function, you see that the brushes emit thousands of tiny sparks as the motor turns. So you can't have it both ways. Even if you argue with all the Rabbis and think something must react with oxygen to be considered lighting a fire (which a bulb doesn't do since it is in a vaccum) and the temperature is not what makes something fire, then the brush motors in the computer do not reach a high temperature, but spark, and burn oxygen so according to you they are considered like lighting a fire.
Rabinically speaking, moving or using the computer is Muksah since one can violate the Sabbath if one uses it. The Rabbis of old were great Torah Scholars and what the Sanhedrin decreed must be followed since you are not even 1% as well versed in Torah as one of these Rabbis and we have a Mosaic tradition that allows Rabbis to make fences around the Torah. And the fact that a light bulb is the same thing as a candle Halachakly is unanimously agreed on by all Orthodox Rabbis of recent times. If you don't understand their decree then there is nothing wrong with their decree, there is most likely something wrong with you since obviously you are purposely stopping yourself from understanding because you want to give into your desires.
The more I read your posts the more I appreciate why the Rabbis made fences around the Sabbath and why this must have been transmitted through Moses since people have a tendency to self rationalize when they really want to do something and convince themselves it is permitted, as you are self rationalizing yourself into believing that the computer is permitted. The fences that the Rabbis put stop simple people from self rationalizing into doing major sins.
Besides this, it defeats the whole purpose of the Sabbath which is to have a day where you rest from doing weekly activities and devote the day to serving G-d and celebrating in his glory.
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What is ridiculous is to NOT consider how we treat each other to be more important than the sabbath. When the gentile came to Hillel demanding that Hillel teach him the entire Torah standing on one foot, Hillel did not mention the sabbath at all. Instead, he said, "Do not do to others what you would not have others do to you. All the rest is commentary."
And yes, the more people in here arrogantly and self-righteously try to shove the ritual aspects of Judaism down our throats, the more I am going to rebel and do the very opposite. I let no man rule over me, not even strangers on an internet forum who exploit their defective understanding of religion to gain a false sense of their own superiority.
That story is very true and you are right to an extent. He meant that treating others like yourself IS THE KEY to the Torah. This is because the Torah is a way to emulate G-d and the main aspect of G-d is that he is a kind and merciful G-d. Without treating others like yourself, you will not understand the Torah or do the commandments correctly as many the commandments are based on this one. So in one respect this commandment is above the Sabbath. But in another respect the Sabbath is above this commandment since according to the Torah (I'm not making this up, look it up) if one willingly violates the Sabbath he is to be killed but one who violates loving your neighbor is not killed.
What you are failing to see is the big picture. The Torah has 613 commandments that Jews are required to do, some with very grave penalties, and simply doing this one commandment is not a substitute to doing the other 612 since in the Torah G-d commanded us to follow these commandments. While honoring your fellow is one of the greatest commandments since much of the Torah is based on it, the rest of the Torah can not be ignored and Hillel was not saying that the rest of the Torah is meaningless. It's comparable to a architect asking his instructor "tell me how to build something on one foot" and him replying that "the foundation of a building is what really counts". So does that mean that the architect only builds the foundation and does not build the rest of the building? Of course not. BTW, G-d's other attribute is retribution and many of the the other commandments are based on this.
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OK here is why the computer biblically violates the Sabbath (and don't tell me it is bull crap since I am a biochemistry major and understand this stuff). The cathode ray tube of a CRT monitor is definitely in the category of lighting a fire since a beam of high energy electrons are forced off a superheated cathode at very high voltages. All Rabbis agree that there is no difference between a candle and a light bulb. The temperature at the cathode tip in the cathode ray tube is hotter than your oven. And you were to pump some flammable material in there it would ignite it. If you smash the monitor it would expolde due to the cathode's tip vaporizing. Also, the various lights on the computer are considered like lighting a fire (if the are LEDs then it is questionable) and they don't all stay on. The hard drive indicator light blinks as you use the computer, as does the caps lock light, as does the network light indicator. Also the brush type motors in the computer (they are used to cool the fans) are probably considered like lighting a fire since if you ever took one of these apart and watched them function, you see that the brushes emit thousands of tiny sparks as the motor turns. So you can't have it both ways. Even if you argue with all the Rabbis and think something must react with oxygen to be considered lighting a fire (which a bulb doesn't do since it is in a vaccum) and the temperature is not what makes something fire, then the brush motors in the computer do not reach a high temperature, but spark, and burn oxygen so according to you they are considered like lighting a fire...
Wow, jdl4ever... that is one of the most amazing posts! I copied it and saved it in notepad so I could keep it for future reference. GREAT POST!!
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I dare you to name even one Jew who has been killed for violating the sabbath since biblical times. I dare you to realize how many people have been murdered because people did not treat each other with common human decency.
Judaism does not ask us to sacrifice our brains. Yet the people in here who claim to seriously think that violating the sabbath is worse than mistreating our fellow human beings, are not using their heads at all. They are even treating G-d Himself like an idiot.
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I dare you to name even one Jew who has been killed for violating the sabbath since biblical times. I dare you to realize how many people have been murdered because people did not treat each other with common human decency.
The myth you have that no Jews were killed for violating the Sabbath since biblical times is false, many Jews were killed for violating the Sabbath since up until Talmudic times the Jews had their own court system with corporal punishment. In fact the Talmud states that they even killed some Sadducite heretics for violating Rabbinic commandments since it was a time of danger for Judaism with all the Sadducites openly rebelling against the Rabbis.
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Wow, jdl4ever... that is one of the most amazing posts! I copied it and saved it in notepad so I could keep it for future reference. GREAT POST!!
Thanks Jeffguy. I have a very creative mind and always come up with new ideas on the spot.
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The greatest Talmudic sage to ever live, Rabbi Akiva, said that if a Jewish court killed more than one Jew in seventy years, it was considered a murderous court. As I keep saying but nobody seems to want to listen, the death penalty for violating the Sabbath mentioned in the Torah is only meant to set a standard for how important it is to keep that holiday. It was not meant to give permission to Jews to murder other Jews any time they violated the Sabbath. If it were, the Jews would have been extinct a long time ago, a victim of its own murderous ways.
Judaism is a life-affirming religion, not some islamofascist-like death cult that some people in this forum keep wishing it to be.
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The greatest Talmudic sage to ever live, Rabbi Akiva, said that if a Jewish court killed more than one Jew in seventy years, it was considered a murderous court
I heard that too.
I also heard that (unlike our courts) if a man is condemned to death and turns out to be innocent, the judges are guilty of murder.
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Wow, finally somebody supports my more moral side of things!
If witnesses falsely testify in court condemning a man to death, then yes, those false witnesses receive the death penalty.
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Wow, finally somebody supports my more moral side of things!
If witnesses falsely testify in court condemning a man to death, then yes, those false witnesses receive the death penalty.
I just read the same thing you did. I read it in Rabbi Blech's book.
It's like the eye for an eye thing. It's symbolises what you should get but nobody pokes eyes out.....except the muslims who had no Talmud.
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What moslems do is 100 eyes for an eye. Draw cartoons of mohammed they do not like, and 500 people get murdered.
Rabbi Benjamin Blech is such a great teacher of Judaism. Aside from his public lectures and very useful and informative books, this morning I discovered that he has made many little youTube videos. So characteristic of him, he makes them very short, and there is never a dull moment with him. He is the consummate teacher.
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What moslems do is 100 eyes for an eye. Draw cartoons of mohammed they do not like, and 500 people get murdered.
Rabbi Benjamin Blech is such a great teacher of Judaism. Aside from his public lectures and very useful and informative books, this morning I discovered that he has made many little youTube videos. So characteristic of him, he makes them very short, and there is never a dull moment with him. He is the consummate teacher.
Open one of books and there's usually a gag in the first line. Funny guy.
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OK here is why the computer biblically violates the Sabbath (and don't tell me it is bull crap since I am a biochemistry major and understand this stuff). The cathode ray tube of a CRT monitor is definitely in the category of lighting a fire since a beam of high energy electrons are forced off a superheated cathode at very high voltages. All Rabbis agree that there is no difference between a candle and a light bulb. The temperature at the cathode tip in the cathode ray tube is hotter than your oven. And you were to pump some flammable material in there it would ignite it. If you smash the monitor it would expolde due to the cathode's tip vaporizing. Also, the various lights on the computer are considered like lighting a fire (if the are LEDs then it is questionable) and they don't all stay on. The hard drive indicator light blinks as you use the computer, as does the caps lock light, as does the network light indicator. Also the brush type motors in the computer (they are used to cool the fans) are probably considered like lighting a fire since if you ever took one of these apart and watched them function, you see that the brushes emit thousands of tiny sparks as the motor turns. So you can't have it both ways. Even if you argue with all the Rabbis and think something must react with oxygen to be considered lighting a fire (which a bulb doesn't do since it is in a vaccum) and the temperature is not what makes something fire, then the brush motors in the computer do not reach a high temperature, but spark, and burn oxygen so according to you they are considered like lighting a fire.
Rabinically speaking, moving or using the computer is Muksah since one can violate the Sabbath if one uses it. The Rabbis of old were great Torah Scholars and what the Sanhedrin decreed must be followed since you are not even 1% as well versed in Torah as one of these Rabbis and we have a Mosaic tradition that allows Rabbis to make fences around the Torah. And the fact that a light bulb is the same thing as a candle Halachakly is unanimously agreed on by all Orthodox Rabbis of recent times. If you don't understand their decree then there is nothing wrong with their decree, there is most likely something wrong with you since obviously you are purposely stopping yourself from understanding because you want to give into your desires.
The more I read your posts the more I appreciate why the Rabbis made fences around the Sabbath and why this must have been transmitted through Moses since people have a tendency to self rationalize when they really want to do something and convince themselves it is permitted, as you are self rationalizing yourself into believing that the computer is permitted. The fences that the Rabbis put stop simple people from self rationalizing into doing major sins.
Besides this, it defeats the whole purpose of the Sabbath which is to have a day where you rest from doing weekly activities and devote the day to serving G-d and celebrating in his glory.
What if a TV or a computer is left on (and no screen saver)? THe machine like an automatic light is doing the work by itself without one putting it in motion...just like a Shabbos goy does it for many synogogues.
I do not disagree with the fences. I think the fences are a beautiful thing. By all means, my children are giogn to learn about fences when they grow up. Right now, I'll be on the fence about certain fences... ;D
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The greatest Talmudic sage to ever live, Rabbi Akiva, said that if a Jewish court killed more than one Jew in seventy years, it was considered a murderous court.
1- you are misquoting the passage. What you are implying is that a Jewish court that did kill a violator (whomever he may be- a killer, adulturer, Shabb-t breaker, etc.) is a murderer?
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Judaism is a life-affirming religion, not some islamofascist-like death cult that some people in this forum keep wishing it to be.
JewishTeddyBear, no one here could even fathom Judaism being some islamofascist-like death cult, G-d forbid! Where are you getting this from?? It's like you said earlier... this was stated to show the importance of Shabbat - NOT to threaten Jews on the forum with death! Maybe you are reading a bit too much into some of the posts.
What if a TV or a computer is left on (and no screen saver)? THe machine like an automatic light is doing the work by itself without one putting it in motion...just like a Shabbos goy does it for many synogogues.
I do not disagree with the fences. I think the fences are a beautiful thing. By all means, my children are giogn to learn about fences when they grow up. Right now, I'll be on the fence about certain fences... ;D
dannycookie57, that is correct. If you turn your monitor on before Shabbat (just like if you set up a light timer before Shabbat), you are not violating any rules.
I like what you said about the fences being beautiful.
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whats the point of turning on the monitor on Shabb-t if you are not allowed to touch the keyboard or do anything?
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What if you leave a radio on and listen on Shabbat without touching it? I used to do that for Yom Kippur on the alarm clock radio in my room. I would have it on for 25 hours.
belive me, once you keep keeping Shabb-t, go past the so-called "pain" and the spiritual/psychological blockage, and resolve to keep Shabb-t- radio and t.v. and whatever else will seem like non-sense. Shabb-t is such a great pleasure- you eat, pray, learn Torah, radio would be and is a joke compared to that. (anyway we can do that 6 out of 7 times a week so one day is no sacrifice.)
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Certainly, you are allowed according to Jewish law to leave your radio, television, computer, heater, air conditioner, or any other electrical appliace on the entire shabbat. In fact, when I used to be religious, I would set my radio timer such that it would play about two hours during each shabbat. I did not want to leave it on the whole time or else I would not be able to sleep. Besides, I did want to spend at least some time studying the Torah. But sometimes I imagined myself owning eight radios, and setting each one to play two hours each, such that it would never, ever stop playing during my waking hours.
Turning the computer on or off, or printing things, on Shabbat is definitely prohibited by all Torah authorities. But there does seem to be some disagreement as to whether one can simply type on one's computer, since one is not really printing anything but rather creating images on a screen that are not really there. But I am skating on thin ice here, as I do not know this subject to comment in any more detail than that. Certainly just about every worthy Rabbi would suggest to you to just stay off the computer for that one day of the week.
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What if you leave a radio on and listen on Shabbat without touching it? I used to do that for Yom Kippur on the alarm clock radio in my room. I would have it on for 25 hours.
belive me, once you keep keeping Shabb-t, go past the so-called "pain" and the spiritual/psychological blockage, and resolve to keep Shabb-t- radio and t.v. and whatever else will seem like non-sense. Shabb-t is such a great pleasure- you eat, pray, learn Torah, radio would be and is a joke compared to that. (anyway we can do that 6 out of 7 times a week so one day is no sacrifice.)
I hear you, Tzvi on that...believe me, it would make sense for everyone to try to strive in that direction...but it won't happen with all religious minded Jews in this generation..all these things do take time.
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Jewishteddybear, I see no logic to what you are saying. When the Torah says that one must be killed for certain sins, then G-d means it. If you need even more proof, G-d told Moses to kill a man who carried on Sabbath and he followed G-d's will. When G-d says something is eternal, he means it and G-d does not change his mind. For the thrid time, what you are saying is a false myth that has no basis in reality. The Jewish courts did kill people who violated the Sabbath and other sins with warning and with witnesses. They also gave lashes to those who violated other sins. The saying that if the court killed MORE than one Jew in 70 years is a murderous court is another way of saying that if they did kill one person every 70 years then they are fine. If the Jewish courts did not kill anyone ever then the saying would have been "if the court kills anyone in 70 years then they are a murderous court". So this shows you that it was common for the Jewish courts to kill a man once every 70 years and there are numerous Talmudic passages that talk about the Jewish courts killing people according to what the Bible says. You are ignoring what I said in that the Tamud states that the courts even killed people for violating Rabbinic laws in certain times of crisis, so obviously they also killed those who violated the Sabbath. The reason why the Jewish courts did not kill people frequently is that there must be witnesses to the crime and the witnesses must have warned the man before he committed the crime that he is violating the Torah and they must even read him the Torah passage if I remember correctly. It is very rare to have all these requirements met but it did happen around once every 70 years in a Jewish town.
The eye for an eye thing is the exception and not the rule. On this we have a tradition from Moses that it means that if one injures someone they must compensate them monetarilly.
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Certainly, you are allowed according to Jewish law to leave your radio, television, computer, heater, air conditioner, or any other electrical appliace on the entire shabbat. In fact, when I used to be religious, I would set my radio timer such that it would play about two hours during each shabbat. I did not want to leave it on the whole time or else I would not be able to sleep. Besides, I did want to spend at least some time studying the Torah. But sometimes I imagined myself owning eight radios, and setting each one to play two hours each, such that it would never, ever stop playing during my waking hours.
Turning the computer on or off, or printing things, on Shabbat is definitely prohibited by all Torah authorities. But there does seem to be some disagreement as to whether one can simply type on one's computer, since one is not really printing anything but rather creating images on a screen that are not really there. But I am skating on thin ice here, as I do not know this subject to comment in any more detail than that. Certainly just about every worthy Rabbi would suggest to you to just stay off the computer for that one day of the week.
I would even add that typing on a computer can be a temptation to lead to one doing business on Shabbat...But if it is temptation..then my answer would be that everyone gets tempted differently than others..therefore, for those who get tempted, build that fence and leave teh computer off on Shabbat.
I figure the one advantage of being able to text message on shabbat is to talk to fellow Jews who are not around you and that you hardly have time to talk to them during the week.
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Judaism is a life-affirming religion, not some islamofascist-like death cult that some people in this forum keep wishing it to be.
JewishTeddyBear, no one here could even fathom Judaism being some islamofascist-like death cult, G-d forbid! Where are you getting this from?? It's like you said earlier... this was stated to show the importance of Shabbat - NOT to threaten Jews on the forum with death! Maybe you are reading a bit too much into some of the posts.
What if a TV or a computer is left on (and no screen saver)? THe machine like an automatic light is doing the work by itself without one putting it in motion...just like a Shabbos goy does it for many synogogues.
I do not disagree with the fences. I think the fences are a beautiful thing. By all means, my children are giogn to learn about fences when they grow up. Right now, I'll be on the fence about certain fences... ;D
dannycookie57, that is correct. If you turn your monitor on before Shabbat (just like if you set up a light timer before Shabbat), you are not violating any rules.
I like what you said about the fences being beautiful.
hey thanks...you know what i wrote to chaim on the last askjtf. The logic the rabbis used back then are beautiful to my brain like good art is beautiful to my eyes.
but remember, I'm on the fence about certain fences.
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According to me if the computer is on all the time and you use it on Sabbath then you are still violating the Sabbath for the reasons discussed above. Namely, there are network lights, hard drive lights and keyboard lights blinking when you use it that would not blink at all if you do not use the computer and it is simply on. Also, the computer goes into standby when you don't use it for a while and the monitors CRT turns off and it goes into a sleep state. The computers hard drive also turns off and goes into a sleep state. When you use the computer, the CRT goes out of standby and turns on (thus turning on the CRT and usually another LED turns on which is a differnt color) and the computers hard drive turns back on (which may use a brushed motor and definitely turns on a hard drive indicator light). Also, on all laptops and on several desktop computer models, the CPU fan is controlled by a variable speed motor that ups the speed of the motor when the CPU is being heavily used and downs the speed of the motor when the CPU is not being used as much. There are too many issues that you are probably violating the Sabbath even if the computer is on. Even if you tell me that LEDs are probably not the same as light bulbs and you are sure all the lights on your computer are LEDs then you at least have to adjust the power settings of your computer so that the hard drive never turns off and it never goes into standby and it never brings the monitor into standby, and you have to do research if you have a speed variable motor on your CPU. Then maybee you won't be violating the Sabbath Biblically but I wouldn't take that risk.
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Anything that happens once in 70 years is not exactly what any normal person would call a common practice. When Rabbi Akiva spoke about a court being murderous if they killed people more than once in seventy years, he was including all crimes punishable by the death penalty, even murderers. And unlike some people in this forum, the Talmudic Rabbis were far more likely to kill murderers than sabbath violators. Remember, they valued ethical, moral behavior, not using the Jewish Task Force forum as a means by which to advocate mass murdering all Jews. I deliberately say All, because all Jews have violated the Sabbath in one way or another at some time in their lives.
And by the way, what I am saying IS the Torah view. Those who claim to represent the Torah yet advocate murdering Jews for switching on a light on Shabbat, are really islamofascist wannabes thinly disguised.
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According to me if the computer is on all the time and you use it on Sabbath then you are still violating the Sabbath for the reasons discussed above. Namely, there are network lights, hard drive lights and keyboard lights blinking when you use it that would not blink at all if you do not use the computer and it is simply on. Also, the computer goes into standby when you don't use it for a while and the monitors CRT turns off and it goes into a sleep state. The computers hard drive also turns off and goes into a sleep state. When you use the computer, the CRT goes out of standby and turns on (thus turning on the CRT and usually another LED turns on which is a differnt color) and the computers hard drive turns back on (which may use a brushed motor and definitely turns on a hard drive indicator light). Also, on all laptops and on several desktop computer models, the CPU fan is controlled by a variable speed motor that ups the speed of the motor when the CPU is being heavily used and downs the speed of the motor when the CPU is not being used as much. There are too many issues that you are probably violating the Sabbath even if the computer is on. Even if you tell me that LEDs are probably not the same as light bulbs and you are sure all the lights on your computer are LEDs then you at least have to adjust the power settings of your computer so that the hard drive never turns off and it never goes into standby and it never brings the monitor into standby, and you have to do research if you have a speed variable motor on your CPU. Then maybee you won't be violating the Sabbath Biblically but I wouldn't take that risk.
my point was not that i disagreed with your amusing scientific knowledge about computers. It was irregardless...if it is left on AND there was no screen saver, (and assuming nobody is typing anything or doing anything that can be disputed as un-Shabbat), shabbat is not being violated...likewise a TV or a radio.
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Anything that happens once in 70 years is not exactly what any normal person would call a common practice. When Rabbi Akiva spoke about a court being murderous if they killed people more than once in seventy years, he was including all crimes punishable by the death penalty, even murderers. And unlike some people in this forum, the Talmudic Rabbis were far more likely to kill murderers than sabbath violators. Remember, they valued ethical, moral behavior, not using the Jewish Task Force forum as a means by which to advocate mass murdering all Jews. I deliberately say All, because all Jews have violated the Sabbath in one way or another at some time in their lives.
And by the way, what I am saying IS the Torah view. Those who claim to represent the Torah yet advocate murdering Jews for switching on a light on Shabbat, are really islamofascist wannabes thinly disguised.
do yourself a big favor and stop with your ranting. What your opposition has stated is laws- from various places. + to go on a public forum and say what you are saying and the way you are saying it- trying to make Shabb-t observence a minimal thing, and changing the words of the Torah (and persisting after you have been proven wronge time after time) is an even worse sin (you can lead others to sin by trying to show them that its not a big deal, everyone does it and whateva else you are saying).
-No one here ever said that he will take the law into his own hands and go and kill a Shabb-t desecrator, as I stated before that "zealot" would be concidered a murderer 100%. BUT its also wronge for you to say that the courts never did it, and everything else you said -becuase if their was the complete Sanhedrin today and they would have cases today they would still be obligated to make the case procedure etc and decide (according to Jewish law)
- what you are repitidly saying is a reformist view, I hope Jews who read it can learn a lot about what not to do.
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I would also like to add that any Jew who did violate Shabb-t (when I was younge and the way I was brought up -I also did), can make a full repentence and be concidered rightious, etc. -even if a Jew says today- I accept the Shabb-t - G-d and his laws are right- and tomorrow (G-d forbid) he dies- when he's takin to the heavenly court G-d will concider him to have been keeping the Shabb-t and being rightious. -its never too late in this world, but we shouldn't (myself included) kid around with G-d's laws and minimize the damage we can couse ourselves (G-d forbid).
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No, I am not ranting, and no, I am not reformist. I am representing true Orthodox Judaism of more than 3,300 years of tradition. I have studied that tradition for more than four decades of my life from some of the most prominent Rabbis in the world. It is those who zealously anticipate murdering all Jews for violating the Sabbath, that are desecrating G-d's name, and resemble islamofascists far more than any authentic Torah Jew.
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No, I am not ranting, and no, I am not reformist. I am representing true Orthodox Judaism of more than 3,300 years of tradition. I have studied that tradition for more than four decades of my life from some of the most prominent Rabbis in the world. It is those who zealously anticipate murdering all Jews for violating the Sabbath, that are desecrating G-d's name, and resemble islamofascists far more than any authentic Torah Jew.
no one is anticipating killing Jews- please put the ego aside and deal with the issue. Its not us who are desecrating G-d's name, but you with that misinterpretation. -instead of spending your energy at coming with counter arguments it would be better to spend it by strenthening your Emuna and learning the laws.
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If you no one could break Shabbat, then everyone would keep it. Therefore, this forum should be blocked on Shabbat.
When I get married, I will keep Shabbat because my wife will be religious. If my whole household is Shomer Shabbat, so will I. But taking away the stumbling blocks that prevent people from keeping Shabbat is a step in the right direction.
1-agreed
2-Thats a wronge thing to do for us bachelors, we should start doing the proper corrections now and also contine all of our lives. I sent you the video's dating and Marriage by Rav Daniel Kohen- please watch it a couple of times and understand the wisdom he offers on this subject. -You said you will keep after you get married- but maybe what will keep you from being married is the fact that you dont keep something. - Its important for all of us to do now and not be dependent on someone (even your future wife).
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If you no one could break Shabbat, then everyone would keep it. Therefore, this forum should be blocked on Shabbat.
Yacov, that is not a bad idea at all. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. We do this on the Hebrew forum.
I just wish there was a way to allow gentiles to continue to post since they are not obligated.
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What should be blocked are people who hide behind their wrong conception of Judaism as an excuse to be cruel to their fellow Jews. More and more, I see this website is really not for proud Jews at all, but rather for mean people who never get tired of spreading their cruelty.
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What should be blocked are people who hide behind their wrong conception of Judaism as an excuse to be cruel to their fellow Jews. More and more, I see this website is really not for proud Jews at all, but rather for mean people who never get tired of spreading their cruelty.
I think you're wrong...simply because I"m not one of those people and nor are a bunch of others here...watch what you say for now on because now I have my eye on you..>I'm not liking what you are saying anymore because now you are sounding very intolerant and immature.
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If you no one could break Shabbat, then everyone would keep it. Therefore, this forum should be blocked on Shabbat.
Yacov, that is not a bad idea at all. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. We do this on the Hebrew forum.
I just wish there was a way to allow gentiles to continue to post since they are not obligated.
Whats the big deal if people dont go on once a week? okay, gentiles wont be on 1 time a week, whats the big deal? If you say it will be bad for the movement- then they can do other things- ex- the youtube campaign.
Even if their is an argument that it will hurt the movement (which it wont) Chaim said that if their is a conflict between the interests of the Jewish people and of the JTF movement the interests of the Jewish people takes and will take precedence.
- also look at the opportunity the movement can have by closing the forum on Shabbat - it will be a Kiddush Hashe-m letting Jews know the importance of Shabb-t and that we dont dare to play around with this issue - then maybe with this and other things some Jews who are on the border can think to themselves and come to be completly Shomer Shabb-t. -and if this is thanx to JTf or anyone here or anyone anywhere - you cant image the great reward in Olam Haba that awaits that person (if you want proof please state so- I will bring you the source).
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you are intolerant, immature, and are in no position to tell me what i am allowed to say or not allowed to say. and if you dont like it, then go move to north korea, where censorship is celebrated.
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And by the way, what I am saying IS the Torah view. Those who claim to represent the Torah yet advocate murdering Jews for switching on a light on Shabbat, are really islamofascist wannabes thinly disguised.
Who in here is advocating killing Jews?? Only the high courts could make this type of decision. People can't just go around killing Jews, G-d forbid! That would be murder. If the courts decide to have someone put to death, this is NOT murder.
I will, however quote G-d (not a man) speaking from the actual Torah to show you the severity of this sin:
Exodus 31:14: 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.
If you argue with this, then you are not referencing the Torah or representing true Orthodox Judaism of more than 3,300 years of tradition.
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You are obviously not really reading what I am saying, so there is no point in my repeating the same points over and over again. But I come away with this knowing that I do represent the Torah perspective, while you are advocating that Jews become no different from the murderous islamofascist savages.
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you are intolerant, immature, and are in no position to tell me what i am allowed to say or not allowed to say. and if you dont like it, then go move to north korea, where censorship is celebrated.
JTB, you have gone from smart and normal to crazy and dumb and not using his head....like 180 degrees...I dont' know if i shoudl pity you right now and recommend you seek some professional help or to recommend your banning on this forum...
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dannyCookie is stupid, insane, crazy, dumb, brainless, idiot, and moronic, needing professional help and banning on this forum...
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Your posts are getting original as the time pasts :laugh:
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dexter has no originality, nor apparently a daddy to give him the good spanking that brat deserves
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dexter has no originality, nor apparently a daddy to give him the good spanking that brat deserves
You are obviously either a schizophrenic or someone has hacked JTB's acount.
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hiWarp is obviously schizophrenic and not a real Jew or even a decent human being
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hiWarp is obviously schizophrenic and not a real Jew or even a decent human being
HiWarp is a Christian :P
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something's up...and we're gonna figure it out. If this wasn't JTB this whole time, you better believe something bad will coming your way...
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Yes, I am very indecent. By the way, make sure you go back to the "sports" thread and tell me what an idiot I am for not bowing down and worshiping the juiced up Barry Bonds.
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hiWarp is just an idiot, period. and that hardly surprises me that he is a JESUS freak, since JESUS is for people with low IQ's anyway.
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Please Read this important post.
Quote from: jeffguy on Today at 02:23:44 PM
Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on Today at 01:43:20 PM
If you no one could break Shabbat, then everyone would keep it. Therefore, this forum should be blocked on Shabbat.
Yacov, that is not a bad idea at all. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. We do this on the Hebrew forum.
I just wish there was a way to allow gentiles to continue to post since they are not obligated.
MY response
Whats the big deal if people dont go on once a week? okay, gentiles wont be on 1 time a week, whats the big deal? If you say it will be bad for the movement- then they can do other things- ex- the youtube campaign.
Even if their is an argument that it will hurt the movement (which it wont) Chaim said that if their is a conflict between the interests of the Jewish people and of the JTF movement the interests of the Jewish people takes and will take precedence.
- also look at the opportunity the movement can have by closing the forum on Shabbat - it will be a Kiddush Hashe-m letting Jews know the importance of Shabbat and that we dont dare to play around with this issue - then maybe with this and other things some Jews who are on the border can think to themselves and come to be completly Shomer Shabbat. -and if this is thanx to JTf or anyone here or anyone anywhere - you cant image the great reward in Olam Haba that awaits that person (if you want proof please state so- I will bring you the source).
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hiWarp is just an idiot, period. and that hardly surprises me that he is a JESUS freak, since JESUS is for people with low IQ's anyway.
:'( :'( :'( aww, you made me feel bad now. I want my teddy bear.
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hiWarp is just an idiot, period. and that hardly surprises me that he is a JESUS freak, since JESUS is for people with low IQ's anyway.
:'( :'( :'( aww, you made me feel bad now. I want my teddy bear.
And I want my captain kangaroo, even though I don't know what is it . :'(
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JTB is banned or he run out of jokes ?
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dexter is banned for having no respect for his elders. dexter is completely worthless as a human being, a waste of DNA and airspace
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LOL, you are talking like an old lady that haven't have children in her life .
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dexter is a little child who dreams of being a childless old lady
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dexter is a little child who dreams of being a childless old lady
You're like a little kid, actually you're worse, like a baby. Even babies make more sense.
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JTB was a little odd in the past, but these last outbursts aren't like him. He's had an attack of some kind. :o
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JTB was a little odd in the past, but these last outbursts aren't like him. He's had an attack of some kind. :o
I wouldn't doubt it.
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No, I am not ranting, and no, I am not reformist. I am representing true Orthodox Judaism of more than 3,300 years of tradition. I have studied that tradition for more than four decades of my life from some of the most prominent Rabbis in the world. It is those who zealously anticipate murdering all Jews for violating the Sabbath, that are desecrating G-d's name, and resemble islamofascists far more than any authentic Torah Jew.
You ARE A REFORMIST since what you said before is directly against the written Torah, the Talmud and against Orthodox Judaism. I would normally be silent, but you are trying to convince others that what you say is Orthodox and this is a lie. One who causes others to sin has no portion in the world to come. Every single Orthodox Rabbi will tell you that the Jewish Court system did kill violators of the Sabbath, although not very frequently. You are making things up by yourself and have nothing to lean on. The Torah is against you and the Talmud is also against you. In the Massianic era, or when we have a Jewish Sanhedrin and court system once again we will continue to do what the Torah says and kill violators of the Shabbat (although rarely since like I told you before the criteria are very strict for the court to find the man guilty; we need a set of witnesses who witnessed the act and also warned the man properly and he did it anyways).
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I'm glad we got this issue resolved and also I wanted to get rid of Im Erica thread off our board... O0